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RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,072
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.

I want to tell a little story and then make a non-judgmental appeal at the end.

I mean... you did just let a minor die.

Also, lets just tally up the harm here:

Me: zero minors killed themselves
SS: At least one minor killed themselves

Go on, tell me again how nothing could be done.

Yeah, I lied. I am being judgemental.

I'm judging that a minor died because of lack of protocol.

Me: Being judgemental when I said I wouldn't be
SS: Allowing a minor to die

Yeah, my lack of etiquette is the the story here, isn't it?

These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.

Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]

What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.

I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.

And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.

Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism

While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.

I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.

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European Center for Law and Justice

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The International Journal Of Human Rights

And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.

But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.

Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]

You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.

Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?

Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]

You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.

First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.

I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?


There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.


It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.

What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.

Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...

There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.

Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.


They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?

Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]

You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".

What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?

And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:

I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.

You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?

As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?

Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]

You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.

Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.

Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]

You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.

Chapter seven. Responsible reporting

Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.

Fixers001

If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.

It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?

1674238448981

"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."

Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.

Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]


A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.

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I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.

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Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.

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She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.

But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.

And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/apology-to-ss-re-nyt-article-tessb-harriet.103328/

Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.

Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]

I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...ed-in-online-safety-bill.104247/#post-1792545

Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]


Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.

So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.

And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.


Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.


Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.

And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?


So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.

And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"

That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.

My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?

I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.
 
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pthnrdnojvsc

pthnrdnojvsc

Extreme Pain is much worse than people know
Aug 12, 2019
1,685
I hope that thread that has his video linked is locked. That thread already has 5k views in 5 hours . 5k ads for his video smearing this site. Tantracul : he's trying to make money off us suicidal people imo. And just clicking his video makes him more money . I hope members repeatedly bumping that thread realize they are just providing more ads for his video.

His video is not interesting nor truth . So how does the thread linking it deserve 5k views in 5 hours? I don't remember too many threads receiving that many views or bumps that fast.

Each click helps the video in the YouTube algorithm.

the way people here keep talking about and replying to the thread where the dumb video is linked might make it go viral. Best way to combat that video is to not click on it and tell everyone to ignore it. take it as something not worthy of discussion because it isn't. It's just a. Attempt by a YouTuber to make money

Clicks on his video will make him money and move the video up on the YouTube algorithm. That's what YouTubers are after clicks & views which translate to money. He's using us suffering people to enrich himself with cash $.

i will never watch his video
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,564
Excellent post and thank you for taking the time to thoroughly debunk all his slanderous lies and falsehoods he made against SaSu. I consider SaSu as a safe place for me and always cherished my time here from the time I joined and even in my recent return last summer. I know that when my time comes to CTB I will release a right to die manifesto (prior to dying) that should help out this community even further and possibly be instrumental against any other bad faith third party(ies) that may try to bring us down.

@RainAndSadness I think this thread should be pinned/stickied if it hasn't already since it contains a lot of good information and I don't want it to get buried.
 
W

Wannagonow

Specialist
Nov 16, 2022
379
Rain, thank you so much for your post. Long post, but my experience is that your threads and posts are well worth reading in their entirety. To have taken out a single paragraph would have omitted important information.

I remember reading the post you quoted above of Jonels where among other things, he told us we were responsible for letting a minor 17 year old die. I remember being upset that someone could be so hateful. I stayed away for a couple of days.

I would never, ever, give tantacrul anymore undeserved attention by watching the video. I have a million things I want to say, but I'm not the wordsmith you and many others here are. I appreciate you laying out the truth and being brave enough to stand your ground. Thanks again
 
Sunset Limited

Sunset Limited

I believe in Sunset Limited
Jul 29, 2019
1,144
Why someone delete a comment like that? I don't think he's someone worth talking to and responding to. An arrogant narcissist who doesn't want to hear anything but his own truth.

"I have Asperger. I am 45 years old. I lived a terrible life in a terrible country. I have been suicidal for 25 years. I wish I had never lived the last 25 years. If I had the right to assisted suicide 25 years ago, I would have used it. Actually, my real wish is to never have come to this world. Assisted suicide is not legal in my country. Now I have to do this myself. Keeping everyone alive is not the right solution. Thanks to the aforementioned site, I will not have to jump from a high place. Or hanging myself on a heating pipe. I don't want to be hurt or suffer. I want a dignified and peaceful death. If the authorities force someone to live who is suffering and wants to end their life, we should question the authorities, not the existence of these sites. I recommend you to watch the movie "Mar Adentro". When the body becomes a prison of flesh for someone, trying to keep him alive is like throwing wood on their fire. A dignified and peaceful euthanasia should be a human right. If the authorities do not handle this fairly enough, it is inevitable that there will be more than the mentioned sites. The misconception that everyone on the site is evil personalities and wants all others dead is wrong indeed. You don't know anything about the site you are talking about."
 
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D

Damnation

Member
Jan 17, 2023
56
Beautiful. I've never felt more seen.

On another note... he really ended the video with a line like that? I'm appalled. If he really wanted to end with some kind of motivational message for the wanna-be saviors, he could have at least ended it with some kind of encouragement to understand us better, but... I guess he hasn't given us any reason to believe that "understanding" is part of his process.
 
Shu

Shu

As above, So Below.
Jan 21, 2022
2,487
Excellent post and thank you for taking the time to thoroughly debunk all his slanderous lies and falsehoods he made against SaSu. I consider SaSu as a safe place for me and always cherished my time here from the time I joined and even in my recent return last summer. I know that when my time comes to CTB I will release a right to die manifesto (prior to dying) that should help out this community even further and possibly be instrumental against any other bad faith third party(ies) that may try to bring us down.

@RainAndSadness I think this thread should be pinned/stickied if it hasn't already since it contains a lot of good information and I don't want it to get buried.
I agree
 
Sunset Limited

Sunset Limited

I believe in Sunset Limited
Jul 29, 2019
1,144
I hope that thread that has his video linked is locked. That thread already has 5k views in 5 hours . 5k ads for his video smearing this site. Tantracul : he's trying to make money off us suicidal people imo. And just clicking his video makes him more money . I hope members repeatedly bumping that thread realize they are just providing more ads for his video.

His video is not interesting nor truth . So how does the thread linking it deserve 5k views in 5 hours? I don't remember too many threads receiving that many views or bumps that fast.
Absolutely I agree. The thread should be removed immediately and we should continue as if that person and their video didn't exist. No need to waste time with a narcissist who just deleted my comment about my life and why I wanted CTB, and only wants his opinions read.
If we're all vulnerable, who exactly is doing the exploiting?
Seeing the world in black and white is to make it easier to understand. This person's perspective is like a naive story character who believes there is only good and bad in life. He has no time to waste to see other colors. He need followers and coins to earn.
 
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dtjb

dtjb

The Obsolete
Apr 27, 2022
63
I wanted to share what I think but am not the best writer anymore, so I hope y'all will forgive any incoherence on my part. Just wanna get this off my chest so I can get on with my Friday night.

1. I actually found that vid because it was recommended to me on YT. I clicked it b/c I watch a lot of commentary videos and I actually thought it couldn't be SaSu so I was curious wtf this site was. I thought it wasn't this site because I barely see any minors here, let alone minors being encouraged to ctb.

2. I realized it was SaSu a few minutes in when he poorly obscured the website name by calling it something with two S's in the title... Like the NYT, I bet he's just gonna send more people here who have been looking for an outlet or some understanding. Ijs, could have called it Fatalistic Fuckers or something, idk lol.

3. Jokes aside, my resolve to ctb has greatly decreased since joining here. I came here in the midst of my worst bipolar depression episode yet and was searching desperately for what I thought were methods. But as I've said in a prior post, the level of acceptance and understanding I found here did more for me than a million "cheer up"s and as a result, that desperation I felt dissipated even though the depression and suicidal thoughts remained. To be able to exist here in a suicidal state of mind without judgment or platitudes about how wonderful life actually helped tether me to the world when I felt like I didn't have anywhere else to turn. And I can say that I'm grateful for that regardless of how other people feel.

4. Now I'm in a place where I've retreated fully from thoughts of ctb. I'm trying yet another med combo and back in therapy for the millionth time. Just understanding the course of my illness, I'll probably end up back where I was last year at some point. But I did wanna say that I think it's easy to pick out the few deaths when there's likely way more me's who just go on with their lives in some way or another.

Last, I didn't watch the full vid so I can't respond to much of what he says, but Rain has done a thorough job of it here. I'm somewhat sympathetic to how the video creator feels in a way and might lash out in grief the same way if it was a younger relative of mine or a kid I knew. Still, I feel like shutting down SaSu is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. The core issue goes unaddressed while superficial aid is given to the suffering. This isn't the first internet community like this and it won't be the last. Playing whack-a-mole with sites seems... Less than productive to me.

Anyway, I just felt compelled to chime in for any outsiders that might be reading. Two sides to every story and such, and it would be worth listening to what people here actually say and trying to understand.
 
L

lionetta12

Just a random person
Aug 5, 2022
1,107
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.









These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.

Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]

What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.

I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.

And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.

Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism

While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.

I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.

View attachment 103738
European Center for Law and Justice

View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights

And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.

But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.

Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]

You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.

Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?

Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]

You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.

First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.

I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?


There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.


It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.

What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.

Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...

There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.

Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.


They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?

Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]

You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".

What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?

And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:

I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.

You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?

As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?

Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]

You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.

Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.

Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]

You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.

Chapter seven. Responsible reporting

Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.

View attachment 103733

If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.

It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?

View attachment 103740

"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."

Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.

Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]


A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.

View attachment 103744

View attachment 103743

I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.

View attachment 103741

Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.

View attachment 103745

She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.

But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.

And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/apology-to-ss-re-nyt-article-tessb-harriet.103328/

Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.

Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]

I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...ed-in-online-safety-bill.104247/#post-1792545

Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]


Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.

So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.

And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.


Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.


Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.

And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?


So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.

And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"

That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.

My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?

I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.

I didn't watch the video and I never will. I'm anti YouTube, so I avoid the site. I didn't know a lot of this, and I can't believe that the one time I was gone from the forum for a few weeks in November to give life a last chance, which heavily failed and severely traumatized me even more, the start of all of this happened. I've had to read up on a lot.

He really think we are a cult? That's the most bizzare statement I've heard about this site. Nobody is luring or refering people to join this place, there's no recruiting. Nobody is being pushed to be on this site and nobody's being manipulated to end their life. This is a pro choice online forum where people discuss everything from «what rope to get» to «period blood love spells» to cast on someone.

The incel claim is very odd to me. I'm sure there's a couple of them, as there is in any community, however, to say that they are the majority is an overstatement. From most posts I've read and the people I've actually spoken to and gotten to know on this forum I can not say that it has been the case, most of them have been middle aged people who are married, have relationships and who even have children. The same goes for the libertarianism accusation. I'm not aware of anyone on here that is a libertarian. We have several posts here about politics and I don't recall anyone discussing those kind of views.

I overall think that this guy needs some help himself. He seems very close minded, he has a lack of the ability to self reflect and he can't see or understand other peoples perspectives. There might also be some lack of morality and ethical understanding on his part in general, his behaviour and views seems fairly childish, irrational and imature.

I also suspect that he's one of those people that say «you can tell me anything, I want to help!» just to use whatever you opened up about against you and make fun of you for it.
 
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mint

mint

Member
Jan 11, 2023
9
ah yes, another youtube personality looking for profit in the suffering of others. i'm not even surprised anymore. i got two seconds into the video before knowing exactly what was going on. i doubt this joker cares at all about any of the people involved, he just wants to make some ~content~ and get some easy views, that's literally all it's about. what a disgusting joke.
 
Salvation_

Salvation_

"Please, finish my story."
Nov 25, 2020
227
I didn't watch the video and I never will. I'm anti YouTube, so I avoid the site. I didn't know a lot of this, and I can't believe that the one time I was gone from the forum for a few weeks in November to give life a last chance, which heavily failed and severely traumatized me even more, the start of all of this happened. I've had to read up on a lot.

He really think we are a cult? That's the most bizzare statement I've heard about this site. Nobody is luring or refering people to join this place, there's no recruiting. Nobody is being pushed to be on this site and nobody's being manipulated to end their life. This is a pro choice online forum where people discuss everything from «what rope to get» to «period blood love spells» to cast on someone.

The incel claim is very odd to me. I'm sure there's a couple of them, as there is in any community, however, to say that they are the majority is an overstatement. From most posts I've read and the people I've actually spoken to and gotten to know on this forum I can not say that it has been the case, most of them have been middle aged people who are married, have relationships and who even have children. The same goes for the libertarianism accusation. I'm not aware of anyone on here that is a libertarian. We have several posts here about politics and I don't recall anyone discussing those kind of views.

I overall think that this guy needs some help himself. He seems very close minded, he has a lack of the ability to self reflect and he can't see or understand other peoples perspectives. There might also be some lack of morality and ethical understanding on his part in general, his behaviour and views seems fairly childish, irrational and imature.
The old site administrators were also the admins of an incel forum. They were incredibly neutral towards the subject (they basically just let people say what they want here) and barely participated in the SS community. Much different from the active moderation of RainAndSadness, and I feel like the video OP grossly misrepresents RainAndSadness's character. But OP is biased from the start. If I had a nickel every time someone accused them of having ill intentions, I'd be rich enough to never consider CTB ever again. It's really funny that the guy did the bare minimal of research about RainAndSadness when all their posts are public. Users who pay attention already know that they have opened up about being trans, but I guess he didn't bother. More about the incels, yeah, we probably have a few lurking but it doesn't really matter. We're not a hivemind. Unless they start up shit, it's really not worth banning them because... it's really not the forum for that?

Anyways, minors are not allowed here. But it's impossible to regulate that unless we used an identification method, which would be essentially doxxing users. Nobody, not even the site moderators, want the users' privacy violated like that. So, yes, it's only a tickbox because there's no clear solution. Obviously, the Youtuber's solution would just be "Don't have the site open at all". If there was even a plausible solution, the admins would've employed it already. As long as minors find the site (ironically maybe hearing about it from a YouTube video), it's impossible to stop them from squeezing through the cracks.

It'd be incredibly naive to say there are no predators on the site, but admins and moderators are trying their best to stamp them out when reported. It is a shame that with a vulnerable community, there come people who want to take advantage of that vulnerability, but that happens EVERYWHERE on the internet. SS (in spirit) has been around since the 1990's, with alt.suicide.holiday, which meant no, the original site administrators of SS did NOT invite the idea of a space where people can freely discuss about suicide. Anybody who comes on the site can see that most (a large majority) of the threads posted are by equally vulnerable people, so it makes no sense to try to persecute suicidal people who are replying in goodbye threads or method threads. Unless, I guess, in this guy's logic, you must be a predator who gets off on other people CTBing if you even try to assist other people or don't want to stop them. Why haven't prolific members CTB yet? Gee, it's not like it's because suicide is hard or anything. And if suicide fails, its not like there are consequences to be suffered. It's a little insensitive considering the actual topic being discussed here. "These people HAVEN'T CTB'ed!?!?!?!?!?! SUSPICIOUS...." like, okay man, great stance.
 
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LifeIsAChore11

Member
Dec 18, 2020
66
Excellent post and thank you for taking the time to thoroughly debunk all his slanderous lies and falsehoods he made against SaSu. I consider SaSu as a safe place for me and always cherished my time here from the time I joined and even in my recent return last summer. I know that when my time comes to CTB I will release a right to die manifesto (prior to dying) that should help out this community even further and possibly be instrumental against any other bad faith third party(ies) that may try to bring us down.

@RainAndSadness I think this thread should be pinned/stickied if it hasn't already since it contains a lot of good information and I don't want it to get buried.
I feel like maybe it should be made into a video response by someone willing to narrate it and scroll through the articles on video.
 
LastFlowers

LastFlowers

the haru that can read
Apr 27, 2019
2,143
I have yet to read this in its entirety and I have no clue exactly what's going on..been absent for a couple of days and this happens..but from what I gather, it's about the fact that some Youtuber made a video about this site with ass backwards conclusions and a rabid, blind popular opinion of the masses already primed and chomping at the bit to agree with him…and that is concerning.
Despite the irony of the phrasing, this site must survive.

This is one of the only places in existence that I have had a voice. I would like that voice-however much of it was able to come forth in its brief time-to remain here and to never be in jeopardy of being snuffed out.
I am sure there are others here who have also shared so much of themselves, their struggles, their goodbyes..when they had no chance and no space to do so otherwise.
Obviously that is not the only reason as to why this place needs to exist, but it makes me so unbelievably livid…that I've been pushed into tiny corners of the internet by my circumstances and society, and most of those few places have already perished..now someone like this is willing to risk the last or the ONLY safe haven of those who are already very much marginalized and made voiceless by the status quo.

Now what…they want to eradicate our presence and history from the margins as well!?
This man is risking SO much that is not even his to risk, nor his to lose.
That says it all.
If we're all vulnerable, who exactly is doing the exploiting?
His own self, and those like him.
 
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Looking

Looking

Looking for the answer.
Jan 16, 2023
219
Thanks for the awesome response, Rain! I think you addressed all of the points in great detail for the most part - as best as you could at least.

I do have one question, though. Lamarcus Small and Diego J. Galante no longer have any connection to the website anymore, right? Do they still have access to the control panel, or whatnot? I guess I'm asking if there's any involvement with these two individuals and SS. I know they were the original founders, I think.
 
Papilio_polyxenes

Papilio_polyxenes

Member
Oct 4, 2022
53
How is it possible for SS to be a "death cult" while allowing dissenting speech? I can understand saying that it's an echo chamber, but "cults" do not allow disagreement with the dominant ideology or leaders.

Plenty of people here (like myself) are not "pro-death" or "anti-natalist." I've openly told individuals in an active state of crisis to consider seeking help first. I don't believe teens (even at 18 or 19) are old enough to make a responsible decision about ending their lives. Finally, I never share sources even when people DM me.

There is no representation of the moderate pro-choice stance in the comments Tantacrul cherry-picks. There's an entire recovery forum, and he barely acknowledges its existence. His theories about Exit International are galaxy-brain conspiracy nonsense. A packet of SN is "unsettling" - would he prefer desperate people use shotguns or jump in front of trains?

If he cares about "vulnerable" populations here, then I'd ask what kind of advocacy he's done. Yes, autistic people (like me) are overrepresented here - same for the trans community. Do you use your privilege and your platform to address the societal issues that drove us all to this place? Not just ableism and transphobia - but abuse, chronic illness, poverty, and mental health as well.

That's the fundamental fallacy behind this video. People need to believe their friend or relative was perfectly fine until the evil death cult website groomed them to CTB. The solution? Prohibition, banning access to "information." That always works out well, right?

Online message boards like SS have existed since the late 1980s, and there is no evidence that they lead to a dramatic increase in suicide rates. In fact, providing people with a space to discuss such thoughts openly is harm reduction.
 
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S

SamTam33

Warlock
Oct 9, 2022
764
RE: the echo chamber comments.

People are so used to social media platforms being full of arguments and discord that they want to turn agreeing with one another - into a bad thing.

I never got the impression that this was a neutral board dedicated to debating whether suicide is wrong or right; good or bad.

It's fine if those discussions arise, but where do people get off thinking they're owed a cheering section when they want to preach about the virtues of life?

Read the room. Know your audience. Who are you talking to?
 
W

Wisdom3_1-9

he/him/his
Jul 19, 2020
1,955
Clicks on his video will make him money and move the video up on the YouTube algorithm. That's what YouTubers are after clicks & views which translate to money. He's using us suffering people to enrich himself with cash $.

i will never watch his video
I recognize this but felt I had to watch the video. I think it's important to know how others view the site and to take in the arguments they make against the site. Otherwise we run the risk of building our own echo chamber.

In contrast to what others have said about the video, I actually found it engaging. Naturally, I disagree with several of the key points and I think (like all the hit pieces that came before it) it lacks any nuance in its assessment. It relies on several assumptions from people who actually don't know this community very well, nor understand the mindset of people in this community. Still, it's the kind of piece that is sure to attract views and attention.

It reminds me how challenging it is for others to understand what it's like for us. What a blessing it must be to assume that pain is temporary. (He conveniently omits any mention of the numerous people on this site for medical reasons.)

Rain's rebuttal has some really well thought out points. Sadly, I think they fall on deaf ears. I am long past expecting others to understand our viewpoint. There's a cognitive dissonance there. The language we use and thoughts we express will always seem villainous. And I say this as a fairly moderate member of this site.

The video largely misrepresents this site. Any member of this community knows that. I doubt any of us would find wisdom in his calls for us to abandon the site based on his comments. Still, there are valid points in the video to consider. And knowing how others perceive us, it would be wise for us not to dismiss everything in the video simply because we are angry at him.

For example, we really should reconsider making the site private. I've never fully supported that idea as even I lurked on the forum for a full year before joining. But the climate is different now. The point of the subject matter reaching minors who are guests on the site is valid. Yes, it's not officially our responsibility. That should fall with their parents. But that's a bit of a cop-out. We can do better than that. At the very least, it would offer our members more protection. (I seldom post in the public parts of the forum for that very reason. This post is a notable exception.)

Anyway, I'm sad now that the community is going through more of this; that people who have been through so much pain already are again being villainized. I'll say it again — the SS community has kept me alive much longer than any other force in my life. By supporting my right to die on my terms, they've given me the strength to keep going day by day.

Would love a video about those stories.
 
Papilio_polyxenes

Papilio_polyxenes

Member
Oct 4, 2022
53
RE: the echo chamber comments.

People are so used to social media platforms being full of arguments and discord that they want to turn agreeing with one another - into a bad thing.

I never got the impression that this was a neutral board dedicated to debating whether suicide is wrong or right; good or bad.

It's fine if those discussions arise, but where do people get off thinking they're owed a cheering section when they want to preach about the virtues of life?

Read the room. Know your audience. Who are you talking to?
I don't think we'll agree on this matter, so I'll try to keep my response civil and brief.

"Echo chamber" is merely an acknowledgement that people who choose to be here are self-selected for certain characteristics/opinions. "Know your audience" is a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

I don't want a section for religious people to proselytize to me about why life is great. We don't need "neutrality" because everyone here at Sanctioned Suicide believes CTB is morally permissible. Permissible doesn't mean obligatory.

It is a personal choice rooted in the right to bodily autonomy, and it should be an informed decision. You don't have to agree, but I merely wish for this opinion to be respected.
 
S

SamTam33

Warlock
Oct 9, 2022
764
I don't think we'll agree on this matter, so I'll try to keep my response civil and brief.

"Echo chamber" is merely an acknowledgement that people who choose to be here are self-selected for certain characteristics/opinions. "Know your audience" is a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

I don't want a section for religious people to proselytize to me about why life is great. We don't need "neutrality" because everyone here at Sanctioned Suicide believes CTB is morally permissible. Permissible doesn't mean obligatory.

It is a personal choice rooted in the right to bodily autonomy, and it should be an informed decision. You don't have to agree, but I merely wish for this opinion to be respected.
Where do we disagree? I'm not seeing it.
 
LastFlowers

LastFlowers

the haru that can read
Apr 27, 2019
2,143
For example, we really should reconsider making the site private. I've never fully supported that idea as even I lurked on the forum for a full year before joining. But the climate is different now. The point of the subject matter reaching minors who are guests on the site is valid. Yes, it's not officially our responsibility. That should fall with their parents. But that's a bit of a cop-out. We can do better than that. At the very least, it would offer our members more protection. (I seldom post in the public parts of the forum for that very reason. This post is a notable exception.)
But how do you propose that we "do better than that", save for invading members' privacy to an unsafe and unreasonable degree..?

..Offering protection of members and stopping the subject matter from reaching minors are two separate things which do not share a solution in this context (making the site private).
Not without other invasive measures being enforced.
(The info on methods is also available outside of this site, and before this site ever existed.)

I don't think that clarifying where the responsibility lies is a "cop out"..
especially when the rest of the internet leads to far more suicide..and more directly than the worst of the claims made against this place.
Also, are we -as preoccupied, suffering, suicidal individuals, really to be burdened with fault because of a lack of excessive vigilance to account for every other person our tired and downtrodden selves stumble across?

This (YT) person's stance is that of blaming the dust pan for what the brush swept in.
 
W

Wisdom3_1-9

he/him/his
Jul 19, 2020
1,955
But how do you propose that we "do better than that", save for invading members' privacy to an unsafe and unreasonable degree..?
It's unclear to me how requiring members to register to view the forum pages would invade privacy, unless I am misinterpreting your point?
..Making the site private and stopping the subject matter from reaching minors are two separate things which do not share a solution in this context.
(The info on methods is also available outside of this site, and before this site ever existed.)

I don't think that clarifying where the responsibility lies is a "cop out"..
especially when the rest of the internet leads to far more suicide..and more directly than the worst of the claims made against this place.
Also, are we -as preoccupied, suffering, suicidal individuals, really to be burdened with fault because of a lack of excessive vigilance to account for every other person our tired and downtrodden selves stumble across?

This (YT) person's stance is that of blaming the dust pan for what the brush swept in.
These are all very good points. But my point is that if our content was behind some wall, we could at least say that the site is making efforts to shield the information from minors. Obviously they can get it elsewhere, but SS can't be held accountable for that. We can be held accountable for what we do.

We must admit that there is a disconnect. We technically do not allow minors on the site and everyone has to vow that they are of the age of majority. So the question is, why does that requirement exist. Is it because we don't think minors should be engaging with this content? (That is admittedly an assumption, but I think a fair one.) If that's the case, then the content should at least be behind a membership wall where minors can't access it. That's not a big leap to make.

Of course that's not going to solve the problem. Minors will probably still find a way to join as they have in the past, or they can get the information elsewhere. But I don't think the argument that we can't stop something entirely means that we shouldn't do anything.

I also think there are benefits in the optics of having the method information behind a membership wall. Again, it's not a perfect solution, but it would eliminate at least one of the arguments against the site. I reiterate that I've always been uneasy with this, because that info was invaluable to me long before I joined SS. It saved me from attempting a method that could have been unreliable in my case and would have led to serious complications. So again, it's a benefit vs. risk assessment here.

And the other reason I support membership is just to protect us all. I worry about Fixers and others having such easy access to members' posts. Again, I know membership doesn't completely solve this, as anyone can join, but at least it would give admins and mods some control and options.
 
Salvation_

Salvation_

"Please, finish my story."
Nov 25, 2020
227
It's unclear to me how requiring members to register to view the forum pages would invade privacy, unless I am misinterpreting your point?

These are all very good points. But my point is that if our content was behind some wall, we could at least say that the site is making efforts to shield the information from minors. Obviously they can get it elsewhere, but SS can't be held accountable for that. We can be held accountable for what we do.

We must admit that there is a disconnect. We technically do not allow minors on the site and everyone has to vow that they are of the age of majority. So the question is, why does that requirement exist. Is it because we don't think minors should be engaging with this content? (That is admittedly an assumption, but I think a fair one.) If that's the case, then the content should at least be behind a membership wall where minors can't access it. That's not a big leap to make.

Of course that's not going to solve the problem. Minors will probably still find a way to join as they have in the past, or they can get the information elsewhere. But I don't think the argument that we can't stop something entirely means that we shouldn't do anything.

I also think there are benefits in the optics of having the method information behind a membership wall. Again, it's not a perfect solution, but it would eliminate at least one of the arguments against the site. I reiterate that I've always been uneasy with this, because that info was invaluable to me long before I joined SS. It saved me from attempting a method that could have been unreliable in my case and would have led to serious complications. So again, it's a benefit vs. risk assessment here.

And the other reason I support membership is just to protect us all. I worry about Fixers and others having such easy access to members' posts. Again, I know membership doesn't completely solve this, as anyone can join, but at least it would give admins and mods some control and options.
Making the site private is just one barrier against minors. Except minors can still join just by registering, and as pointed out in the video already, RainAndSadness said there'd be hundreds of people registering and only so many moderators to go through the approvals. This is a volunteer effort. It's a decent amount of work to put on them.
 
S

SamTam33

Warlock
Oct 9, 2022
764
It's unclear to me how requiring members to register to view the forum pages would invade privacy, unless I am misinterpreting your point?

These are all very good points. But my point is that if our content was behind some wall, we could at least say that the site is making efforts to shield the information from minors. Obviously they can get it elsewhere, but SS can't be held accountable for that. We can be held accountable for what we do.

We must admit that there is a disconnect. We technically do not allow minors on the site and everyone has to vow that they are of the age of majority. So the question is, why does that requirement exist. Is it because we don't think minors should be engaging with this content? (That is admittedly an assumption, but I think a fair one.) If that's the case, then the content should at least be behind a membership wall where minors can't access it. That's not a big leap to make.

Of course that's not going to solve the problem. Minors will probably still find a way to join as they have in the past, or they can get the information elsewhere. But I don't think the argument that we can't stop something entirely means that we shouldn't do anything.

I also think there are benefits in the optics of having the method information behind a membership wall. Again, it's not a perfect solution, but it would eliminate at least one of the arguments against the site. I reiterate that I've always been uneasy with this, because that info was invaluable to me long before I joined SS. It saved me from attempting a method that could have been unreliable in my case and would have led to serious complications. So again, it's a benefit vs. risk assessment here.

And the other reason I support membership is just to protect us all. I worry about Fixers and others having such easy access to members' posts. Again, I know membership doesn't completely solve this, as anyone can join, but at least it would give admins and mods some control and options.
I don't think it would matter what additional protocols we put in place. Make the board private and naysayers would move on to the next issue they have a problem with.

Admins would be constantly bending to the whims of SS opponents.

At the end of the day, it's the subject matter people have a problem with. And they won't stop until they silence us.

They don't give a single shit as to whether we live or die. They just don't want us talking about it.
 

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