Venting Kind of upset about the "mental health issues" cop out.

[Volatha]

It's always the "mental health issues". Whenever someone is found to be suicidal or to have succeeded, they are labeled as mentally ill and their decisions are written off as completely irrational. I find that kind of demeaning and disrespectful. I don't like to imagine my loved ones telling people that I "struggled with mental illness" or "succumbed to depression" because it diminishes my human experience and invalidates my autonomy.
For this reason, I feel that I must become successful and put on an appearance of happiness before I CTB so that my loved ones will even believe the reasons I write in my note. It's kind of a burden though because I actually am depressed as hell. I will probably give in before too long and accept a demeaning, soon to be forgotten demise. Maybe one or two people will not think of me in this dehumanizing way.
Sorry if this is commonly discussed, just wanted to bring up something that was on my mind.

 

[StalkedByDeath]

I don't think it's disrespectful at all tbh. The truth is that most of us are mentally ill. If it weren't for the mental illness, we likely wouldn't be here, for one reason or another. Yes, there are physically terminally ill patients, but that doesn't apply to the majority of folks on here (myself included). I'm curious; why do you find it so dehumanizing for people to see you as mentally ill?

 

[1MiserableGuy]

I don't think it's disrespectful at all tbh. The truth is that most of us are mentally ill. If it weren't for the mental illness, we likely wouldn't be here, for one reason or another. Yes, there are physically terminally ill patients, but that doesn't apply to the majority of folks on here (myself included). I'm curious; why do you find it so dehumanizing for people to see you as mentally ill?

What he's driving at is that it's used as a cop out for why someone's decision to ctb is irrational. Never dawned on them that somebody could evaluate the pros and cons of being alive, and find that the cons well outweigh the pros.

 

[StalkedByDeath]

What he's driving at is that it's used as a cop out for why someone's decision to ctb is irrational. Never dawned on them that somebody could evaluate the pros and cons of being alive, and find that the cons well outweigh the pros.

Yeah I guess so; but the rest of the post seemed to be geared solely towards being labeled as mentally ill rather than the "irrational decision" side of things. The truth is that for many of us, the mental illness is in the driver's seat here. What "normal" people may be able to handle or bounce back from, our mental illness holds us back from doing the same. I don't think mental illness in general should be seen as dehumanizing; just unfortunate.

 

[Anon1337]

I don't think it's disrespectful at all tbh. The truth is that most of us are mentally ill. If it weren't for the mental illness, we likely wouldn't be here, for one reason or another. Yes, there are physically terminally ill patients, but that doesn't apply to the majority of folks on here (myself included). I'm curious; why do you find it so dehumanizing for people to see you as mentally ill?

Because there's so much more to it than someone being "mentally ill". Well, at least for me there is. I personally would find it highly disrespectful for someone to say I "lost my battle" or something like that.

 

[StalkedByDeath]

Because there's so much more to it than someone being "mentally ill". I personally would find it highly disrespectful for someone to say I "lost my battle" or something like that.

I guess to each their own; I do see surviving with mental illness as a battle against oneself personally. Ideally you should give it your all before attempting to CTB, with CTB being the last resort. Treatment comes first. It is possible for many to recover from whatever struggles being faced.

 

[IfyouareamanWinston]

I think that some people struggle with mental illness and that is a completely valid experience. I agree with op that when you are choosing to opt out due to the circumstances of your life it can be a completely rational choice and there is no diagnosis. To be told that you are doing something because you are not thinking clearly or because you must have a mental disorder causing you to want to cbt is demeaning to a person who has rational reasons and has thought through their decisions. Even if you do have a mental illness that does not automatically mean you are being irrational or need intervention (though its a failure of the systems in many places that help is often not available or out of reach.)

 

[Volatha]

I don't think it's disrespectful at all tbh. The truth is that most of us are mentally ill. If it weren't for the mental illness, we likely wouldn't be here, for one reason or another. Yes, there are physically terminally ill patients, but that doesn't apply to the majority of folks on here (myself included). I'm curious; why do you find it so dehumanizing for people to see you as mentally ill?

Because I view myself responsible for my shortcomings. I view myself as responsible for my appearance as mentally ill. I feel that if I only cared enough or tried harder, I could be "normal". And I feel that others think the same of me.

 

[StalkedByDeath]

Because I view myself responsible for my shortcomings. I view myself as responsible for my appearance as mentally ill. I feel that if I only cared enough or tried harder, I could be "normal". And I feel that others think the same of me.

Thank you for the insight. It is important to realize that with many mental illnesses, even with treatment, you would never be normal. Personally, for BPD, that's not the goal in treatment. The goal is to lessen the pain. While you shouldn't feel responsible for your "shortcomings", you should do everything in your power to feel better before deciding to CTB. Medications and treatments CAN work and give you an entirely different feeling of life. I have seen it first hand in person and on here. If you've tried that, and feel you've done everything you can to get better, then don't feel responsible for your "shortcomings". Don't feel like you didn't care; you did everything to try to get better and it didn't work. If you're thinking about it and there's something you didn't try; try it. Don't die with that "what if". Also understand that the people you leave behind will grieve, and it's a means of coping with the loss. Many of them may feel the same was as you do; responsible due to their "shortcomings".

 

[Anon1337]

I guess to each their own; I do see surviving with mental illness as a battle against oneself personally. Ideally you should give it your all before attempting to CTB, with CTB being the last resort. Treatment comes first. It is possible for many to recover from whatever struggles being faced.

Me being depressed is a consequence of how I percieve the world not the other way round. I can't change how my brain is wired. Depression is just a natural conclusion for me.

 

[thenamingofcats]

Normies think that suicide is a result of depression and that when people get depressed enough they kill themselves. They don't see it as complex or individual to each person. One of several things making me hold back on ctb for as long as possible is the pity responses and how I don't want to be dehumanized after my death.

 

[StalkedByDeath]

Me being depressed is a consequence of how I percieve the world not the other way round. I can't change how my brain is wired. Depression is just a natural conclusion for me.

I think you'd be surprised to find it's likely a mix of both. Depression can often be treated, even if it doesn't feel that way. I won't say it can always be treated, or else I wouldn't be here, but it is very possible. It very likely is natural for you, but that doesn't mean it has to be permanent. If you haven't exhausted your resources yet, I'm rooting for you!

 

[EyesOfNight]

The truth is that most of us are mentally ill.

Just want to throw my two cents in.
I'm not really mentally ill. Sure, I have behaviours that can be classified as symptoms but those behaviours aren't irrational. All of my behaviours can be explained by how the world presented itself to me.
I am acting exactly as someone in my situation would act. Does that make me ill?

 

[thenamingofcats]

Just want to throw my two cents in.
I'm not really mentally ill. Sure, I have behaviours that can be classified as symptoms but those behaviours aren't irrational. All of my behaviours can be explained by how the world presented itself to me.
I am acting exactly as someone in my situation would act. Does that make me ill?

I'm reading a book called Against Therapy where the author describes becoming a therapist and learning that mentally ill behaviors* are a result of the patient's interpretation of their life. In a way that's true but he said that what has happened in a person's life or been done to them is considered irrelevant or to be fabricated by the patient (the patient's misinterpretation of their reality). The book is Against Therapy by Jeffrey Masson (and I'm also paraphrasing him, he describes it better).

*for lack of a better term

 

[StalkedByDeath]

Just want to throw my two cents in.
I'm not really mentally ill. Sure, I have behaviours that can be classified as symptoms but those behaviours aren't irrational. All of my behaviours can be explained by how the world presented itself to me.
I am acting exactly as someone in my situation would act. Does that make me ill?

It's hard to say because I don't know your circumstances, symptoms, nor am I a licensed health professional. So the answer is: Possibly? Some people with mental illness don't realize they have mental illness. OP however, as stated, is mentally ill, which is what I was touching on. They said they're battling depression.

I also did say most people here, not all.

 

[Volatha]

Thank you for the insight. It is important to realize that with many mental illnesses, even with treatment, you would never be normal. Personally, for BPD, that's not the goal in treatment. The goal is to lessen the pain. While you shouldn't feel responsible for your "shortcomings", you should do everything in your power to feel better before deciding to CTB. Medications and treatments CAN work and give you an entirely different feeling of life. I have seen it first hand in person and on here. If you've tried that, and feel you've done everything you can to get better, then don't feel responsible for your "shortcomings". Don't feel like you didn't care; you did everything to try to get better and it didn't work. If you're thinking about it and there's something you didn't try; try it. Don't die with that "what if". Also understand that the people you leave behind will grieve, and it's a means of coping with the loss. Many of them may feel the same was as you do; responsible due to their "shortcomings".

I imagine it must be at least a little frustrating for people with incurable ills to see people on here who just don't care enough. For the part I play in that, I apologize.
That being said, I think that I do not owe anyone such an attempt to improve and enjoy my life. And my life experiences are largely a result of my parents' shortcomings. I might rather cause them to mourn my absence than cause them to rot in underfunded nursing homes because I can't stand them due to to the memories of the pain they caused me.
While I sort out life and death decisions, I will try to remember to be sensitive on here.

 

[EyesOfNight]

It's hard to say because I don't know your circumstances, symptoms, nor am I a licensed health professional. So the answer is: Possibly? Some people with mental illness don't realize they have mental illness. OP however, as stated, is mentally ill, which is what I was touching on. They said they're battling depression.

I also did say most people here, not all.

I don't think it's disrespectful at all tbh

I have been diagnosed with stuff and I was just trying to make a point.
What I'm trying to say is that the events of life lead to the decision to CTB. The same events lead someone to become "mentally ill". If a person responds in a rational way to those events and decides to CTB how can they be called ill? There was no abnormality in their behaviour with regard to the situation. They didn't catch a virus. They are however behaving in a way that most of society doesn't which labels them as ill because they are deviating from what is considered normal.

 

[StalkedByDeath]

I imagine it must be at least a little frustrating for people with incurable ills to see people on here who just don't care enough. For the part I play in that, I apologize.
That being said, I think that I do not owe anyone such an attempt to improve and enjoy my life. And my life experiences are largely a result of my parents' shortcomings. I might rather cause them to mourn my absence than cause them to rot in underfunded nursing homes because I can't stand them due to to the memories of the pain they caused me.
While I sort out life and death decisions, I will try to remember to be sensitive on here.

That's not at all what I'm saying, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. It's important to make sure people aren't jumping right to CTB; we do not recommend or suggest suicide on this site. This is a site to help people, and part of helping people is sometimes ensuring they're not giving up hope too soon. Life can be a great thing A. If you're a "normal" person, or B. If you receive treatment and can find the things you do enjoy in life. You are well within your right to not exhaust your resources prior to CTB, but I want to leave you with this: You could very well be "normal" should you decide to seek help, so if that's something you would like for yourself, I think it's worth a shot.

 

[MatrixPrisoner]

Indeed. Somehow over time, having a keen understanding that the world is a cesspool, has been deemed "mental illness". It's okay for me though. I cop out of so many whack ass situations that I don't want to be in, situations invloving "normies", by blaming my "mental illness".

 

[StalkedByDeath]

I have been diagnosed with stuff and I was just trying to make a point.
What I'm trying to say is that the events of life lead to the decision to CTB. The same events lead someone to become "mentally ill". If a person responds in a rational way to those events and decides to CTB how can they be called ill? There was no abnormality in their behaviour with regard to the situation. They didn't catch a virus. They are however behaving in a way that most of society doesn't which labels them as ill because they are deviating from what is considered normal.

Yes, plenty of people that aren't mentally ill decide to CTB, whether that be terminal illness or to avoid a dire situation. However, most people that do CTB are mentally ill, whether that be chronic or acute due to a problematic circumstance that arises in their life. I think suicide in most cases (save for very rare circumstances) is abnormal behavior due to the nature of it; SI exists for a reason. That doesn't mean you're in the wrong for doing it though; it's your life, and no one should be able to force you to live.

 

[UmbraDweller]

Indeed, it's ridiculously easy for people to discredit anything you say when labeled as mentally ill. Even when you got valid points, once they got no arguments left to prove themselfs right or make reason out of things they throw that sticker in there like uno reverse card and instantly perceive you just as an insane person with insane sentences coming outta your mouth because "uuh you must be mentally unwell and not thinking straight."

 

[Illegal Preclear]

CTBing is not a mentally ill decision. Incurable mental illness is a good reason to CTB if that's the case, but it's not a "mentally ill person's thing." Society on this Planet has degraded to the point where the average person has a kneejerk reaction that suicide is ALWAYS the result of mental illness. Was Cato The Younger mentally ill? No. He ended his life because he saw the degradation of the Roman Empire. Were great Samurai who commit Seppuku mentally ill? No - they came from a culture and a time where death was preferable to dishonor. What of the practice of Jauhar in ancient Indian culture?

The idea of suicide as something "mentally ill" didn't come about until the Industrial Revolution - when this Prison Planet essentially got put on lockdown and humanity began regressing and degrading into something totally animalistic.

When you CTB, will people think you're mentally ill? Probably, because that's the kneejerk reaction they've been trained to have. But you'll drive yourself insane worrying about what people will think of you after your gone. Don't worry about it. It won't affect you! When you CTB, such insignificant worries won't be able to hurt you anymore.

 

[EyesOfNight]

I'm reading a book called Against Therapy where the author describes becoming a therapist and learning that mentally ill behaviors* are a result of the patient's interpretation of their life. In a way that's true but he said that what has happened in a person's life or been done to them is considered irrelevant or to be fabricated by the patient (the patient's misinterpretation of their reality). The book is Against Therapy by Jeffrey Masson (and I'm also paraphrasing him, he describes it better).

*for lack of a better term

I just checked out a small summery of his arguments in the book and I can say it's definitely a good one. There are so many good points he's making. Thanks for sharing.

 

[LaughingGoat]

It's hard to say because I don't know your circumstances, symptoms, nor am I a licensed health professional. So the answer is: Possibly? Some people with mental illness don't realize they have mental illness. OP however, as stated, is mentally ill, which is what I was touching on. They said they're battling depression.

I also did say most people here, not all.

To this point, it's more accurate to view mental health as on a spectrum. Take narcissism or anxiety, everyone has personality traits/tendencies that fall somewhere in the realm of having those traits but most people are not diagnosed as having NPD or anxiety disorders unless they are far enough on the spectrum to be clinically labeled.

 

[StalkedByDeath]

To this point, it's more accurate to view mental health as on a spectrum. Take narcissism or anxiety, everyone has personality traits/tendencies that fall somewhere in the realm of having those traits but most people are not diagnosed as having NPD or anxiety disorders unless they are far enough on the spectrum to be clinically labeled.

Absolutely. Some are definitely more severe than others as far as their effects are concerned. No matter the mental illness, however, it can lend into these feelings of hopelessness.

 

[EyesOfNight]

CTBing is not a mentally ill decision. Incurable mental illness is a good reason to CTB if that's the case, but it's not a "mentally ill person's thing." Society on this Planet has degraded to the point where the average person has a kneejerk reaction that suicide is ALWAYS the result of mental illness. Was Cato The Younger mentally ill? No. He ended his life because he saw the degradation of the Roman Empire. Were great Samurai who commit Seppuku mentally ill? No - they came from a culture and a time where death was preferable to dishonor. What of the practice of Jauhar in ancient Indian culture?

The idea of suicide as something "mentally ill" didn't come about until the Industrial Revolution - when this Prison Planet essentially got put on lockdown and humanity began regressing and degrading into something totally animalistic.

When you CTB, will people think you're mentally ill? Probably, because that's the kneejerk reaction they've been trained to have. But you'll drive yourself insane worrying about what people will think of you after your gone. Don't worry about it. It won't affect you! When you CTB, such insignificant worries won't be able to hurt you anymore.

I feel like giving you just a thumbs up isn't enough. Those are very good examples. Thank you so much for this message.

 

[LaughingGoat]

I'm reading a book called Against Therapy where the author describes becoming a therapist and learning that mentally ill behaviors* are a result of the patient's interpretation of their life. In a way that's true but he said that what has happened in a person's life or been done to them is considered irrelevant or to be fabricated by the patient (the patient's misinterpretation of their reality). The book is Against Therapy by Jeffrey Masson (and I'm also paraphrasing him, he describes it better).

*for lack of a better term

Like anything psychology based it's complex, but most would say there is some truth to this but not to said as a overarching statement to apply to all disorders and behaviors. Brain development is significantly impacted by trauma and there are various genetic factors that play a role (general population underestimates the prevalence/impact of hereditary mental illness). I do agree with the statement in lots of aspects, just saying it's a part of an often larger picture.

 

[Volatha]

That's not at all what I'm saying, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. It's important to make sure people aren't jumping right to CTB; we do not recommend or suggest suicide on this site. This is a site to help people, and part of helping people is sometimes ensuring they're not giving up hope too soon. Life can be a great thing A. If you're a "normal" person, or B. If you receive treatment and can find the things you do enjoy in life. You are well within your right to not exhaust your resources prior to CTB, but I want to leave you with this: You could very well be "normal" should you decide to seek help, so if that's something you would like for yourself, I think it's worth a shot.

Ok, I appreciate that you would take the time to point that out.

 

[LaughingGoat]

CTBing is not a mentally ill decision. Incurable mental illness is a good reason to CTB if that's the case, but it's not a "mentally ill person's thing." Society on this Planet has degraded to the point where the average person has a kneejerk reaction that suicide is ALWAYS the result of mental illness. Was Cato The Younger mentally ill? No. He ended his life because he saw the degradation of the Roman Empire. Were great Samurai who commit Seppuku mentally ill? No - they came from a culture and a time where death was preferable to dishonor. What of the practice of Jauhar in ancient Indian culture?

The idea of suicide as something "mentally ill" didn't come about until the Industrial Revolution - when this Prison Planet essentially got put on lockdown and humanity began regressing and degrading into something totally animalistic.

When you CTB, will people think you're mentally ill? Probably, because that's the kneejerk reaction they've been trained to have. But you'll drive yourself insane worrying about what people will think of you after your gone. Don't worry about it. It won't affect you! When you CTB, such insignificant worries won't be able to hurt you anymore.

While I believe suicide is the most basic human right and is a philosophically justified action, I argue against the points of society's views as a degradation. Looking at the Seppuku, it was often an action that was done either because they were going to be captured by opposing forced or because they had done a transgression that was equal to capital punishment. Samurai were often very far from great men, they killed and ravaged other people's land based of the unquestionable commands of their masters, it was common for them to have young boys as apprentices who they had sex with. Cato and many of the ancient Greek & Roman philosophers were incredibly intelligent and independent people who operated quite differently from how the average person lived. Most modern day people would say they could understand the idea of Juahar if they were ablout to have their children killed and be raped by invaders. As a whole suicide has never been commonly accepted, it's been accepted in very specific situations at best.

The idea of mental illness as recognized part of medicine didn't even really begin until the 1800s and few societies had an actionable steps towards it, most were concerned with matter of the spirit and would look towards that as the blame. Consequently, the most common reason most cultures rejected suicide from a idealistic view was that it was severing the soul or spirit and was an affront to whatever god or force they believed gave you life. We continue to do awful things to each other, animals, and the planet so I won't pretend humanity is "good", however a cursory glance over history shows we haven't gone the opposite direction from degrading into animalistic behavior. Raping, pillaging, and assimilating entire warring nations was considered the norm across the world at just about every other point in history. It obviously still happens to an extent, but most major countries literally have it disallowed and haven't done so since before either World Wars. The empires of old that were constantly expanding into other's territories is gone, that's partly why Russia's actions are so vilified. What they are attempting with Ukraine used to be how every powerful country campaigned.

 

[Volatha]

While I believe suicide is the most basic human right and is a philosophically justified action, I argue against the points of society's views as a degradation. Looking at the Seppuku, it was often an action that was done either because they were going to be captured by opposing forced or because they had done a transgression that was equal to capital punishment. Samurai were often very far from great men, they killed and ravaged other people's land based of the unquestionable commands of their masters, it was common for them to have young boys as apprentices who they had sex with. Cato and many of the ancient Greek & Roman philosophers were incredibly intelligent and independent people who operated quite differently from how the average person lived. Most modern day people would say they could understand the idea of Juahar if they were ablout to have their children killed and be raped by invaders. As a whole suicide has never been commonly accepted, it's been accepted in very specific situations at best.

The idea of mental illness as recognized part of medicine didn't even really begin until the 1800s and few societies had an actionable steps towards it, most were concerned with matter of the spirit and would look towards that as the blame. Consequently, the most common reason most cultures rejected suicide from a idealistic view was that it was severing the soul or spirit and was an affront to whatever god or force they believed gave you life. We continue to do awful things to each other, animals, and the planet so I won't pretend humanity is "good", however a cursory glance over history shows we haven't gone the opposite direction from degrading into animalistic behavior. Raping, pillaging, and assimilating entire warring nations was considered the norm across the world at just about every other point in history. It obviously still happens to an extent, but most major countries literally have it disallowed and haven't done so since before either World Wars. The empires of old that were constantly expanding into other's territories is gone, that's partly why Russia's actions are so vilified. What they are attempting with Ukraine used to be how every powerful country campaigned.

War crimes might have been a bit off-topic, no? Is this bait? Have you seen the news in the past 7 months?