Just called up a CTB hotline, the service was ridiculous!

[WornOutLife]

As you probably can imagine, CTB hotlines and NHS suck.
However, this morning I felt like giving these hotlines a shot.
Here's the questions they made me and my anwers:

-Hi, my name is Fernando. What's your name and WhAts YoUr ReAsOn fOr CaLliNg?

-Hi. I'm Matt. I'm calling because I'm planning to CTB next year.

-I see. Do you have any kind of weapon which could hurt you right now?

-Nope. As I said, I plan to kill myself next year.

-Oh I understand. Well, you know that's not a good idea right?

-Why isn't it so?

-Because all is life is precious!

-Sorry but I don't see it that way.

-May I ask how old you are?

-32, and still counting.

-You're so young! Do you realize what I bright future you could have if you decide to keep on living?

-I kinda do, but depression, bipolarity and overweight turned me into a suicidal NEET.

-What's a NEET? (I laughed my ass off here)

-Haha well, it's person who neither studies nor works.

-I see. Do you take any medicines to deal with your mental issues?

-I do but.. they don't work. I feel as suicidal as usual. I even see a psychologist once a week but I find each session really pointless.

-I see, Matt. Well, I think you should talk to the professionals about this and get some new medicine. I'm sure you can find happiness and enjoy life.

-Nah, I don't believe that.

-Matt, you're not going to hurt yourself now right?

-Are you listening to me? I said I'm CTB next year. Damn, this service is so bad! Bye!

-Hey Matt, wait...!

*i hang up the phone*


And that was basically it. As I suspected, their service sucks and there's no way they can change my mind.

What are your thoughts on this? I hope this "material" has helped you to know more about these pointless conversations

 

[LenkaX]

I never called any of these crappy services. And as I read the dialogue you posted, I feel very suicidal now! So these services imho do exact opposite than help.

 

[Amumu]

It is their job to say stuff like that, so I'm not surprised

 

[WornOutLife]

I never called any of these crappy services. And as I read the dialogue you posted, I feel very suicidal now! So these services imho do exact opposite than help.

Exactly! It's literarilly a waste of time. They don't give a damn about people. I guess they only want to get paid their salary, work 6 hours and go out with their friends while forgetting about us lol

 

[Life_and_Death]

What are your thoughts on this?

sounds to me like they were reading from a script. i mean when they ask a question you answered previously, yeah.
places like this need to realize that much like a "motherhood book" it just doesnt exist. much like how every child is different, every human is different. we arent computers we dont run scripts.

 

[Amumu]

You should have called them "NPC" just for fun lol
Non Player Character of Life

 

[WornOutLife]

You should have called them "NPC" just for fun lol
Non Player Character of Life

LOL!!!
Yes, I should! Damn NPCs, they're soooo BASIC

 

[NodusTollens]

These services aren’t great bc most people who work for them have never been suicidal. There job is to help people who are acutely suicidal, I don’t find it nearly as effective for those who have been suicidal for years.

One thing I need to point out, they HAVE to ask if you plan killing yourself today, else they are liable. Whether or not you mention a future date.

Also, NEET is not universally common, I didn’t know that it was until two weeks ago,

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Not only have I spoken to the hotlines multiple times when I was younger, there was a point in my life when I applied to work at one and went through a part of a "training". Most people working there come with a genuine desire to help, but when they are "trained" to talk to suicidal people, it is repeatedly hammered in that they can only use a specific script during their conversations, which is pretty much what you descibed, which is:
1) Ask person what brings them in today, like it's a candy store.
2) Assess risks, i.e. figure out if the person is in immediate danger, in which case they try to talk them into calling 911, or if they aren't, in which case they proceed to step 3
3) Use "active listening" if the person wants to talk about their problems.
4) Suggest that the next step is going to a professional.
5) Wrap up the conversation to get to the next guy. If the risk isn't seen as high, as in the person either doesn't have a set suicide date and a plan, or has a date that is not too close, you're not supposed to spend too much time on them.

And if you go off the script - you're fired.
These people aren't bad, but they are only marginally better than speaking to a chat bot when it comes to helping you. If you don't want someone to try and talk you into going to a psych, unfortunately, these services can do nothing for you.

 

[TAW122]

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with the hotline and while I myself never called nor would I (due to the risks of doing so and at best, a time waster), I agree with what @LenkaX here. Also, hearing many horror stories online about what these 'services' did to those poor callers, that is more than enough for me to swear off these services. They do more harm than good, especially for people like us. While some claim that as long as you don't mention a plan nor a means or intent to carry out harm to oneself, then the caller is safe, but I disagree as the ball is in their court (their leverage). It seems to me this interaction is more like an interrogation with a threat assessment while spewing the usual pro-life rhetoric at such callers.

 

[botanormal]

Thank you for sharing this, I've always heard about how bad suicide hotlines are, but I didn't realise they were quite this unhelpful. It seems like the person on the phone didn't really know how to respond to you, even if he was trying to be nice, he came across as really unprepared. I wonder what type of training you'd need to go through to get a job there, from what I've heard most of these people are just volunteers.

I wonder what would be the 'right' thing to say in that position, aside from the generic 'don't do it' and 'life is precious', what could they really say? I feel like it'd be a lot better if they were trained to listen more, rather than to discourage and question. If somebody were feeling very impulsive, and they called out of desperation, I can't imagine this would be very helpful at all. I'm sorry you had this experience, I wish it could've gone a little better.

 

[yive]

And as I read the dialogue you posted, I feel very suicidal now!

same. very encouraging, thanks ;)

 

[Manaaja]

Sounds pretty standard, unfortunately, I'm sorry to say. What if you had lied "I'm 90 years old"? Would they have said "Well, you're probably going to die in a few years anyway so no need to hurry"?

When I called, they said "We should end this call because we have talked too much." I hope they didn't say that to you. I would have wanted to talk for two hours more at least because I had so many mental issues and worries and troubles and I was so suicidal. "I'm suicidal and no one cares or takes me seriously!" and they're just like "We should end this call!". Didn't make me feel any less suicidal, but it made me cry so much that I couldn't drive the car for a few minutes (I was using mom's car and I was at a parking lot). I guess making a person cry so much they'll just collapse into a pile is one way to prevent them from suicide. Too sad to move. FFS.

I hate when they or you yourself mention medicine and psychologists. It's always either "You don't have medicine? Well, you should get a receipt then and buy some!" or "You have medicine but they don't help? Why don't you just double the amount! Keep taking them till they help!". The same with psychologists. It's either "You should start seeing a psychologist" or in my case "Why did you call a suicide line? Can't you just talk to your psychologist?". But what if my psychologist sucks, I hate him, he doesn't help me and the next appointment is not until next week? Do I just sit in chair with a rope around my neck for a week? "Why don't you just talk to your psychologist?" is so irritating. It's because they aren't available 24/7!

I wish those suicide lines could help, but I have never heard of them helping. I'd suggest you try an AI therapist for android phones (maybe available for iphones too, dunno). May not help in every situation and they're pretty basic, but at least they're available 24/7, they won't end the conversation, their general IQ is higher than you-know-whose. And you can curse, rant, vent and say anything you want without fear.

 

[AprilsBlessings]

These services aren’t great bc most people who work for them have never been suicidal. There job is to help people who are acutely suicidal, I don’t find it nearly as effective for those who have been suicidal for years.

I totally agree with you, it might work for people who wanted to ctb as a quick decision right after a trauma or something, not for us .. who have been suicidal for years and thought it out.

I think that they're just doing their work :( although it's not good enough for us that doesn't make it their fault as individuals, it's bigger than that.

Also, NEET is not universally common, I didn’t know that it was until two weeks ago,

And same lol

 

[Kruger]

We all know the services in the UK are shit, but ridiculing someone who means well and is probably not even getting paid is low. Don't blame the individuals, blame the system. There should be services that train people properly, etc - but they don't want to spend money on it so adbuse the goodwill of volunteers like the person you are ridiculing. They mean well but dont get given training or development. I did not know what a neet was until recently either, not everyone has time to sit online all day. Some of us have to work for a living do don't have time to keep up with the latest lingo and slang. You called up to be a bitch, you didn't call for help. What you did was low.

 

[Nymph]

Sorry to hear about your experience. I never really understood how these hotlines could help anyone...they just say pro life bullshit:/ and I mean what else can they really say? There’s no way to help us really

 

[Deleted member 1768]

Not only have I spoken to the hotlines multiple times when I was younger, there was a point in my life when I applied to work at one and went through a part of a "training". Most people working there come with a genuine desire to help, but when they are "trained" to talk to suicidal people, it is repeatedly hammered in that they can only use a specific script during their conversations, which is pretty much what you descibed, which is:
1) Ask person what brings them in today, like it's a candy store.
2) Assess risks, i.e. figure out if the person is in immediate danger, in which case they try to talk them into calling 911, or if they aren't, in which case they proceed to step 3
3) Use "active listening" if the person wants to talk about their problems.
4) Suggest that the next step is going to a professional.
5) Wrap up the conversation to get to the next guy. If the risk isn't seen as high, as in the person either doesn't have a set suicide date and a plan, or has a date that is not too close, you're not supposed to spend too much time on them.

And if you go off the script - you're fired.
These people aren't bad, but they are only marginally better than speaking to a chat bot when it comes to helping you. If you don't want someone to try and talk you into going to a psych, unfortunately, these services can do nothing for you.

Exactly. Well said Nessie. Deceit runs rampant.

 

[WornOutLife]

Sorry to hear about your experience. I never really understood how these hotlines could help anyone...they just say pro life bullshit:/ and I mean what else can they really say? There’s no way to help us really

Exactly! If I were in their shoes I dunno what I'd say but well...
I guess if they don't follow that basic script, they will be fired.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

Like others have said, they are trained to follow certain protocols which usually end with urging you to go to psych services or calling the police/ambulance on you to tote you off to the ward so that they can be abolished of liability.

Many of these people mean well, and I'm sure these services may help some people who may be prone to impulsive decisions and have retained their faith in the mental health industry.

However, the sort of acknowledgement that the majority of us in this community desire, simply to be heard, listened to, and understood without platitudes or judgement, is not their penchant.

It all boils down to liability. People can't be honest, active listeners when they have to twist their responses to fit a certain narrative. Do I blame them? No, it is a cultural dogma that perpetuates the idea of "sanctity of life" and they are trained to follow the script.

I'm sorry that they gave you such canned sentiments and didn't even make an attempt to listen to what you had to say. I feel these services could have motivated me when I was trying my 2nd or 3rd line of treatment, but when you get to this stage, and you've tried nearly 20 different drugs, their words are empty. That is the problem with these types of things, unfortunately.

 

[WornOutLife]

Like others have said, they are trained to follow certain protocols which usually end with urging you to go to psych services or calling the police/ambulance on you to tote you off to the ward so that they can be abolished of liability.

Many of these people mean well, and I'm sure these services may help some people who may be prone to impulsive decisions and have retained their faith in the mental health industry.

However, the sort of acknowledgement that the majority of us in this community desire, simply to be heard, listened to, and understood without platitudes or judgement, is not their penchant.

It all boils down to liability. People can't be honest, active listeners when they have to twist their responses to fit a certain narrative. Do I blame them? No, it is a cultural dogma that perpetuates the idea of "sanctity of life" and they are trained to follow the script.

I'm sorry that they gave you such canned sentiments and didn't even make an attempt to listen to what you had to say. I feel these services could have motivated me when I was trying my 2nd or 3rd line of treatment, but when you get to this stage, and you've tried nearly 20 different drugs, their words are empty. That is the problem with these types of things, unfortunately.

Great comment. "Their words are empty". I couldn't have said it better!

 

[Miss_Takes]

This thread is extremely interesting to me and reflects the dialogue I seem to be constantly having with friends amd colleagues currently regarding the need for open dialogue about suicide as a stand alone topic without the 'prevention' element being rammed down peoples throats or resorting to unhelpful scripts that go nowhere. And of the benefit of forums such as this to relieve compounding anxiety regarding the topic.
Prior to my own recent mental decline and ideation I worked for many years as a triage specialist in MH and Addictions and was often the 1st contact for people experiencing distress and/or suicidal ideation.
I loved my job and loved being, I believed, an important part of that persons experience.
The majority of people who made contact with the services I worked for were looking for reassurance that there was some relief from their current distress.
While I wasnt subject to using a script there are questions that need to be asked to both validate the callers intentions and to cover the organisations arse in order for it to continue to be able to provide a service at all.
I was a professional and highly trained with more than a decade of experience in such roles but these calls were not my primary purpose in the organisation. I was not a volunteer.
It is important to remember that most people answering helplines are there with good intentions but are hampered by scripts and legalities.
It can be a difficult and frightening job at times because there are so many unknowns in dealing with (most often) distress and compounding factors.
So my heart goes out to most who 'try' to make a 'difference' in the experience of those who call a helpline.
Is it good enough ... NO ... but this is not the volunteer or the helplines fault and comes back to governments and nations becoming brave enough to speak out loud about a topic which is difficult for both those who are suicidal (either reactively in the moment or more intentionally as part of an end to life plan) and those who are trying to provide assistance.
Until society starts an open fearless and non biased dialogue about suicide then we will continue to have to work with services that do the best they can with the little scope they have.

I suppose what I am trying to get at is that this is a complex issue and therefore there are no simple 'one size fits all' solutions but I do believe most organisations/helplines are doing the best they know how under the constraints that they have while under resourced. While members of this particular community may not experience much benefit from their existence other communities may ... and currently, sadly, it is all there is for many.

The next question to ask of course is what do I want and expect from a helpline conversation? And how do I educate a system that is or has failed me?

I am always an advocate of 'interviewing' those providing any mental health service as my experience both professionally and personally is that levels of competence vary greatly and it is MY life on which I am the expert. I do understand that this is not easy to do however and can be a confronting experience from both sides but what else can I do? And if I am doing at least that then I am taking some control of my life when so much is out of my control.

'It is always with the best intentions that the worst work is done'
- Oscar Wilde

 

[Deleted member 1768]

This thread is extremely interesting to me and reflects the dialogue I seem to be constantly having with friends amd colleagues currently regarding the need for open dialogue about suicide as a stand alone topic without the 'prevention' element being rammed down peoples throats or resorting to unhelpful scripts that go nowhere. And of the benefit of forums such as this to relieve compounding anxiety regarding the topic.
Prior to my own recent mental decline and ideation I worked for many years as a triage specialist in MH and Addictions and was often the 1st contact for people experiencing distress and/or suicidal ideation.
I loved my job and loved being, I believed, an important part of that persons experience.
The majority of people who made contact with the services I worked for were looking for reassurance that there was some relief from their current distress.
While I wasnt subject to using a script there are questions that need to be asked to both validate the callers intentions and to cover the organisations arse in order for it to continue to be able to provide a service at all.
I was a professional and highly trained with more than a decade of experience in such roles but these calls were not my primary purpose in the organisation. I was not a volunteer.
It is important to remember that most people answering helplines are there with good intentions but are hampered by scripts and legalities.
It can be a difficult and frightening job at times because there are so many unknowns in dealing with (most often) distress and compounding factors.
So my heart goes out to most who 'try' to make a 'difference' in the experience of those who call a helpline.
Is it good enough ... NO ... but this is not the volunteer or the helplines fault and comes back to governments and nations becoming brave enough to speak out loud about a topic which is difficult for both those who are suicidal (either reactively in the moment or more intentionally as part of an end to life plan) and those who are trying to provide assistance.
Until society starts an open fearless and non biased dialogue about suicide then we will continue to have to work with services that do the best they can with the little scope they have.

I suppose what I am trying to get at is that this is a complex issue and therefore there are no simple 'one size fits all' solutions but I do believe most organisations/helplines are doing the best they know how under the constraints that they have while under resourced. While members of this particular community may not experience much benefit from their existence other communities may ... and currently, sadly, it is all there is for many.

The next question to ask of course is what do I want and expect from a helpline conversation? And how do I educate a system that is or has failed me?

I am always an advocate of 'interviewing' those providing any mental health service as my experience both professionally and personally is that levels of competence vary greatly and it is MY life on which I am the expert. I do understand that this is not easy to do however and can be a confronting experience from both sides but what else can I do? And if I am doing at least that then I am taking some control of my life when so much is out of my control.

'It is always with the best intentions that the worst work is done'
- Oscar Wilde

They are BS...and you MUST know that.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with the hotline and while I myself never called nor would I (due to the risks of doing so and at best, a time waster), I agree with what @LenkaX here. Also, hearing many horror stories online about what these 'services' did to those poor callers, that is more than enough for me to swear off these services. They do more harm than good, especially for people like us. While some claim that as long as you don't mention a plan nor a means or intent to carry out harm to oneself, then the caller is safe, but I disagree as the ball is in their court (their leverage). It seems to me this interaction is more like an interrogation with a threat assessment while spewing the usual pro-life rhetoric at such callers.

Very, very well said. That is it in a nutshell.

 

[Miss_Takes]

Which particular bits?
The script?
The volunteers?
The ability to have any positive effect on anyone?
The lack of governmental integrity and courage in addressing this issue?

I think I answered already but to clarify ... NO and YES .
Would I like a great and inclusive and just world that is able to address these issues effectively and with respect to all opinions and choices?
Sure would .... but I dont live in a world with much of a history of inclusion and justice regarding MOST things ... because human nature in itself doesnt seek inclusion and justice beyond what serves in the best interest of the individual 'human' at any given time, sadly.

Much of life is BS simply knowing that fact changes nothing.

 

[Bigpink]

Lot of ass covering with these kind of services.

 

[Manaaja]

Great comment. "Their words are empty". I couldn't have said it better!

Their words are as empty as their souls! Suicidal people ill need saviors such as them! (castlevania sotn reference)

Just remembered. There was an ad for a paid friendship on my local store's wall some years ago. Not even a physical friendship like going for a walk or tennis or cafe or helping with couch carrying (I'd like to go to tennis with someone). Just a phone friendship (not the sexual kind either). Who would pay 30 euros per hour to talk on phone with someone (non-sexually)? If someone was desperate enough to pay 30 euros just to talk to somebody, anybody, I'd feel so sorry for them that I couldn't ask them to pay for it. At least suicide lines are free.

It's a wonder that they are free, now that I think about it. I wonder how many years before they'll start costing money. Imagine paying money to hear the same things you could program an AI to say. "Calm down. Life good, suicide bad. Get a psychologist. Eat happy pills. Think positively. Life is precious. Wear clothes. Nudism bad."

 

[Miss_Takes]

I think you will find that it wont be too long at all before the 'person' at the end of the phone or in the therapists chair is in fact AI.

 

[Bigpink]

It shouldn't be so hard to at least take people and their concerns seriously rather than stick to the life is precious mantra.

 

[Miss_Takes]

Sadly, having witnessed what happens to paid professionals when someone takes their own life under their 'care' I am not surprised that the 'lifev is precious' mantra is all many are willing to try.
It actually takes balls to put yourself in an off script situation with a person considering suicide.
I also think its important to remember that most people who go into this type of work are merely human beings with their own neuroses and fears.
There is no training on going 'off script' nor in handling the consequences,both positive and negative, for that choice.
Another thing to remember is that the 'professional' is likely to be under enormous pressure re client loads and beauracratic BS that they not have expected when choosing this line of work.
I am not excusing the system here but I am asking people not to forget that for now at least it is merely a human being at the other end of the phone ... often a very young and inexperienced, overworked and underpaid human being.

 

[Bigpink]

Sadly, having witnessed what happens to paid professionals when someone takes their own life under their 'care' I am not surprised that the 'lifev is precious' mantra is all many are willing to try.
It actually takes balls to put yourself in an off script situation with a person considering suicide.
I also think its important to remember that most people who go into this type of work are merely human beings with their own neuroses and fears.
There is no training on going 'off script' nor in handling the consequences,both positive and negative, for that choice.
Another thing to remember is that the 'professional' is likely to be under enormous pressure re client loads and beauracratic BS that they not have expected when choosing this line of work.
I am not excusing the system here but I am asking people not to forget that for now at least it is merely a human being at the other end of the phone ... often a very young and inexperienced, overworked and underpaid human being.

What you say is spot on. It's often inexperienced people put into a difficult position.
If society generally could start having more honest conversations and a shift in thinking towards death.
I've done some work with people and what seemed to help was just acknowledging that there is hurt present.

 

[Miss_Takes]

Exactly ... thank you. The conversations I am having atm highlight just how frightening and frightened the system is when it comes to this issue and talking anything but arse covering and platitudes.

Even more experienced professionals struggle to get their head around the suicide vs suicide prevention conversation.

And I agree ... more often than not people want to be heard and respected not manipulated and cajoled.
The denial of suicide as an option often increases the anxiety and suffering of those experiencing the ideation ... sadly that leads to mistrust, fear and further marginalisation ... less than an ideal outcome to a therapeutic interaction one would have thought.