Discussion Is suicide always rational?

[Dandelion's]

I personally think it is even if it's an impulse the person can't regret it either way.
Their families might devastated sure, but death is inevitable that sadness would simply be delayed.

 

[Canto XIII]

There has been an interesting thread about this a week or so ago: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/some-thoughts-on-suicide-and-epistemology.249430/
Personally, I'm going with "rarely". Something like a parent sacrificing themselves for their child, or a soldier for their comrades could be considered rational, but is that even a suicide?

 

[outrageage]

the question should be, "is suicide always irrational?"

 

[Awesomefoid67]

very context dependent tbh. for some people it might be but for others it might not.

 

[Set Real Goul]

On this issue, we'll always end up running into the question of what we consider rational and irrational. Those concepts will inevitably be interpreted as broadly as possible. So I don't find it particularly interesting to speculate about it.
I'd say it's about half the time. I simply regard drug addicts as, in a sense, suicidal, and to me they're always acting irrationally.

 

[DignifiedGrave]

What do we even think of as being objective? We are beings living in an universe that exist and we cant explain why, hardly how. Our minds have evolved to help us survive through complex circumstances and to organize how social labor in such a way that societies become possible, but always, we are subjective beings trying to demonstrate the objective kernel in our subjective perception of a shared reality. Even objectiveness itself, if you remove it from humanity, you see, is just a tool made my subjective minds to aid in survival. We often talk about "absolute objectivity and rationality". What are these without us? In the first place, the whole fact of an existence that is neither explainable or knowable is itself irrational and absurd. Our objective existence is just as irrational as it is real and yet, absurdly, we ask, "is suicide rational" its not even anything.

 

[DeathSweetDeath]

Can something still be regrettable even if you're not alive to regret it? In my opinion, yes.
The point was never that you can't regret it once you're dead, but rather… if you could see the future and how much things would improve and all the things you'd get to do and be and enjoy, that you'd regret it (if you could, but being dead, you can't, unless you see how good your life would've been once you're in the afterworld, if that should exist).

The point is that if you CTB over problems that are temporary, maybe those problems would have gone away on their own, or you would've found a way to solve them. It could even happen the day after you CTB, and maybe you would have had a great life after that. Could you regret it? No. But that doesn't mean it's not regrettable. It's still regrettable even if you aren't alive to regret it.

 

[Lucifer’s Son]

I think suicide is only "rational" when you're facing a concentration camp imprisonment or terminal illness or something. But I still support the right to do it of course, or else I wouldn't do it.

 

[808sandheartbreak]

I don't think suicide can be rational simply because you cannot know the future. That said, I also think if someone decides their suffering exceeds their tolerance, that is a determination only they can make, because they're the one who has to live their lives. I would never fault someone for doing it, and I believe everyone should have the choice... but by definition that choice cannot be rational.

Even in the worst possible conditions of life (extreme torture, enslavement, terminal illness, hopelessness), something unforeseeable might change about your situation or perspective at any moment. So there's never going to be a point where you can definitively say "ah, yes, I know what's next, and I've determined it's not worth going forward"—and have that be factually correct. You just have to decide you're okay with living in the uncertainty, while things are terrible now. If you can't, then, that is your choice to make... and while I can't ever truly say it's the "right" choice, I can say that I understand.

 

[Ashu]

Human life is not rational, and rational people are not human.

 

[EmployedHikikomori]

I think suicide is only "rational" when you're facing a concentration camp imprisonment or terminal illness or something. But I still support the right to do it of course, or else I wouldn't do it.

I'm gonna half agree with you there. No one would argue that death with dignity in the face of such terrible situations.

However I would argue it's somewhat limiting when you exclude trauma, poverty, homelessness, mental illness, and the like. I know this is still debated among doctors and the like however I feel that answer is obvious in that suicide is a valid choice. In the same way that abortions are valid choices, but are still some how controversial.

 

[DignifiedGrave]

I don't think suicide can be rational simply because you cannot know the future. That said, I also think if someone decides their suffering exceeds their tolerance, that is a determination only they can make, because they're the one who has to live their lives. I would never fault someone for doing it, and I believe everyone should have the choice... but by definition that choice cannot be rational.

Even in the worst possible conditions of life (extreme torture, enslavement, terminal illness, hopelessness), something unforeseeable might change about your situation or perspective at any moment. So there's never going to be a point where you can definitively say "ah, yes, I know what's next, and I've determined it's not worth going forward"—and have that be factually correct. You just have to decide you're okay with living in the uncertainty, while things are terrible now. If you can't, then, that is your choice to make... and while I can't ever truly say it's the "right" choice, I can say that I understand.

Lowkey reading makes me realize that we find ourselves applying tools and rationality to death so much we at times forget to apply them to survival.
I guess once you feel biased one way or another you just brush off whatever you think is the lesser thing.

 

[Lucifer’s Son]

I'm gonna half agree with you there. No one would argue that death with dignity in the face of such terrible situations.

However I would argue it's somewhat limiting when you exclude trauma, poverty, homelessness, mental illness, and the like. I know this is still debated among doctors and the like however I feel that answer is obvious in that suicide is a valid choice. In the same way that abortions are valid choices, but are still some how controversial.

I didn't say it wasn't a valid choice, which is something I agree with. I said it wasn't rational.

 

[EmployedHikikomori]

I don't think suicide can be rational simply because you cannot know the future

[..........]

So there's never going to be a point where you can definitively say "ah, yes, I know what's next, and I've determined it's not worth going forward"—and have that be factually correct.

I actually get annoyed whenever I hear this point come up. Not because I can't counter it or see it as a 'got yah' point.

But it because this dismisses the probability and pattern recognition.

Can we fully predict the future? No.
Can we make an educated guess with reasonable margins of error? Yes!

Bell curves of probability, along with repeating history patterns, and an understanding of human behavior, we can map out what will happened next and we can determine wither to go forward or not.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

Is dying earlier rather than later always rational...? yes of course.

Is controlling the manner circumstances and timing of said death rational..? Again yes.

What we really should be asking, is whether its rational wanting to be alive. Considering that we know there is no objective purpose to it... it causes immense amounts of suffering... meaning it's very very dangerous... and its going to end anyway. Playing a dangerous harmful game that has no purpose/objective, is pretty damn irrational imho.

 

[FuneralCry]

It'll always be for me, ceasing to exist saves me from all future suffering in this existence that was completely unnecessary in the first place that is just waiting to die anyway, there are no disadvantages to not existing yet there is no limit as to how unbearable the torture of existing can get and to exist is just so futile anyway.

Existence truly is just suffering all for the sake of it and if I don't exist I'm permanently free from all suffering which is all I hope for, for me non-existence is all that's desirable, to me existence is a mistake, I could never see any worth or value to suffering in this existence, for all to be gone and forgotten in non-existence is all I hope for. For me ceasing to exist is suffering prevention, it's just so horrible to me how a human can suffer for decades longer just to face the terrible extreme agony of old age so for me ceasing to exist is the positive solution to find peace from all future suffering in this existence so torturous.

 

[Canto XIII]

I'm gonna half agree with you there. No one would argue that death with dignity in the face of such terrible situations.

However I would argue it's somewhat limiting when you exclude trauma, poverty, homelessness, mental illness, and the like. I know this is still debated among doctors and the like however I feel that answer is obvious in that suicide is a valid choice. In the same way that abortions are valid choices, but are still some how controversial.

Not the big Schopenhauer himself arguing for the rationality of suicide What about noluntas!?

(jk, I respect your opion and see where you come from, even if I don't really agree with you).

 

[t8129]

Families tend to take suicide worse than natural death, because suicide could have been prevented and it feels like someone being ripped away too early

I think that if you look at things purely from the amount of suffering it's disingenuous to how things actually are, dying could be placed as neither good or bad because it's a completely different state of being that can't be experienced

 

[Strangerdanger7]

Half the time, it's rational; the other half, it's not. We don't know what their level of suffering is, what their circumstances are, or what's tolerable for them and what they can live with.
Who else can decide that but them?
It's sad, though you've got people begging doctors for help, and all they can do is look at them and say, "I'm sorry, I can't help you." I could help your dog, but not you.
Some of these people are literally bedridden and cannot move.
What is their quality of life like?
The things that no one considers when they pass laws regard
Death with dignity.
What makes them less worthy of
A dignified death.
I believe it's rational to try some treatments, but if they are ineffective, we should not discriminate in medical choices. They should all be on the table.
We fight for what is humane, not discrimination.
They love to harass you for speaking up and having an opinion God knows they find it's a crime.

 

[t8129]

I personally think it is even if it's an impulse the person can't regret it either way.
Their families might devastated sure, but death is inevitable that sadness would simply be delayed.

I also think that it's rational to the extent of however much the person wants to live, if someone is suffering but still wants to stay alive it wouldn't be rational to make the choice to experience nothing as it's only "peace" if its something you choose, its how you view it

 

[Strangerdanger7]

Families tend to take suicide worse than natural death, because suicide could have been prevented and it feels like someone being ripped away too early

I think that if you look at things purely from the amount of suffering it's disingenuous to how things actually are, dying could be placed as neither good or bad because it's a completely different state of being that can't be experienced

I agree suicide is more traumatic but who's causing them trauma. The government that does not legalize death with dignity in all cases.
They have no outlets and they criminalized them for passing thoughts.
How many people do you think are going to seek help when you do this them. They're not going to want to speak up. Let's just get real they're causing this trauma.
Determined people in my option won't be stopped they're going to do what they have to.
Better to have legal safety nets so this doesn't need to continue.
The peace of mind that would give to the people they have options if they need it. What peace of mind do they have right now? Absolutely zero.
What options do they have very limited ones.
This is actually the most humane option.
What's the alternative more tragic suicides if we continue to ignore the lack of proving safety nets for our citizens. We need death with dignity in all cases.
We hope that these discriminatory practices and lack of choice is someday addressed.

 

[xXSufferingXx]

plenty of times it's extremely rational... the opposite happens too tho

 

[808sandheartbreak]

I actually get annoyed whenever I hear this point come up. Not because I can't counter it or see it as a 'got yah' point.

But it because this dismisses the probability and pattern recognition.

Can we fully predict the future? No.
Can we make an educated guess with reasonable margins of error? Yes!

Bell curves of probability, along with repeating history patterns, and an understanding of human behavior, we can map out what will happened next and we can determine wither to go forward or not.

Oh, I totally agree with this. Not being able to know the future doesn't mean the future won't still suck.

I say all of that as someone who hates being told 'you can't know the future,' especially when my day-to-day life is miserable. It's not fair to dismiss someone's pain with that idea, but I do believe it to be true. We simply cannot know. We can predict, and we may even be reasonable to expect our predictions to be right, but prediction models change in...well, unpredictable ways. Things can always change out of nowhere, in unimaginable ways—both good and bad.

 

[v0wkeeper]

depends on the situation most of the time, i don't think you should take your own life over something that can easily be fixed or a one time mistake.

 

[808sandheartbreak]

Lowkey reading makes me realize that we find ourselves applying tools and rationality to death so much we at times forget to apply them to survival.
I guess once you feel biased one way or another you just brush off whatever you think is the lesser thing.

It's really easy to get stuck rationalizing death, for me especially. But I also want to make sure that I give the same attention to rationalizing life—or I guess, as much "rationality" as I can truthfully have.

 

[Passenger4224]

I cannot speak for others, but mine completely is.

I would guess for some people it is, and for others it isn't.

 

[Le temps perdu]

my answer is "most of the time", maybe my definition of "rational" is a bit broad, but I think any decision that someone makes after thinking it through is rational.

 

[SoulWhisperer]

I'm not a researcher or a date scientist but considering that impulsive acts exist and emotions also play a big role, I'm inclined to say that by taking into consideration the whole globe as testing sample then I believe there could be more less pondered deaths than more pondered ones. I may be wrong, but data can never be truly precise, a few Google searches could give a rough estimate however.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

the only thing rational to me is me avoiding continuous constant unbearable pain then all other pain suffering problems.

all my opinion. to me it's not rational to want to live . because the worst pain outweighs the pleasurable things by a billon times. there's always a risk of something extremely horrible happing : so it's not rational nor logical to want to risk extreme torture or something extremely horrible happening to oneself . it's not rational to want to be old .

just the everyday suffering , labor, work a job all day , chores all the time , disapointments, daily suffering, stress, worry , dealing with constant problems outweighs any fleeting meaningless pleausure addictions also. the cons > than the pros . so it's irrational to want to live

it's not rational to fear Death. because Death is inevitable . also Death is Non-Existence forever which means no pain , no problems, no suffering , no bad memories > life which means all those and more horrors.

Eternal Non-Existence is the only guarantee of never suffering pain so bad it's a trillon times worse than one can imagine. but in life there is a posibility of such pain or suffering. so again Permanent Non-Existence > life .

why would i not want to be invulnerable to pain , suffering , problems bad memorie. why would i not want to be in the best state possible free from the fear of suffering unbearable pain and extreme torture?

in life i can't be free of the worrry or fear of unbearable pain and i'm risking it

 

[no mas]

What do we even think of as being objective? We are beings living in an universe that exist and we cant explain why, hardly how. Our minds have evolved to help us survive through complex circumstances and to organize how social labor in such a way that societies become possible, but always, we are subjective beings trying to demonstrate the objective kernel in our subjective perception of a shared reality. Even objectiveness itself, if you remove it from humanity, you see, is just a tool made my subjective minds to aid in survival. We often talk about "absolute objectivity and rationality". What are these without us? In the first place, the whole fact of an existence that is neither explainable or knowable is itself irrational and absurd. Our objective existence is just as irrational as it is real and yet, absurdly, we ask, "is suicide rational" its not even anything.

What does 'reality' actually mean? Ones momentary perception of something subjective or objective that input the brain handles outputs their 'reality'. With an open conscious mind there's virually unlimited possibilities, but those get narrowed down into fewer probabilities. But it's an endless mind bending exercise to say the least. Thus leading to some end knowledge being recorded. Within a vastly unknown and unexplored possibly endless universe. Like anything life presents, one needs to decide whether or not it's actually worth exploring, or leaving alone ?