Incellular Posts

[Julgran]

The issue with this post in its entirety is that it conflates "lonely males" with "misogynistic bullshit", the discussion in this thread has very clearly drawn a distinction between the two. This is a further destructive component of tedious incel rhetoric imo in that it assumes the correct and appropriate challenging of its more unpleasant rhetorical aspects is a further act of persecution against maleness and thus the self-justifying bullshit continues.

The facts are that if someone is an objectionable arsehole who spouts furious misogynistic nonsense on the daily, chances are that person is contributing significantly to their own isolation.

I fully agree, but being self-conscious about this issue myself, it's sad for me to see that everyone seems to view male loneliness as something inherently dangerous.

Thank you for your input!

 

[Chinaski]

I fully agree, but being self-conscious about this issue myself, it's sad for me to see that everyone seems to view male loneliness as something inherently dangerous.

Thank you for your input!

That's the thing, nobody does see male loneliness as inherently dangerous. None of this is discussion an attack on males (l am one fwiw) and nobody assumes a man is dangerous purely because he discusses his own isolation. The assumption that this is the case is a self-perpetuating act of self-deception by those who spout actually unpleasant, creepy, nasty and offensive sexist shit in order to justify their own weird socio-political positions.

 

[Julgran]

That's the thing, nobody does see male loneliness as inherently dangerous. None of this is discussion an attack on males (l am one fwiw) and nobody assumes a man is dangerous purely because he discusses his own isolation. The assumption that this is the case is a self-perpetuating act of self-deception by those who spout actually unpleasant, creepy, nasty and offensive sexist shit in order to justify their own weird socio-political positions.

This is the problem that I was writing about - namely that non-lonely-males assume that lonely males hold those beliefs, which is not the case.

 

[Chinaski]

This is the problem that I was writing about - namely that non-lonely-males assume that lonely males hold those beliefs, which is not the case.

But, uh, they don't.

People are rightly offended by angry misogynistic bullshit, and there happens to be a lot of that, and an unduly high degree of tolerance for it, on this forum. Nobody assumes anyone holds those beliefs until they sit down at their computer and spew it all on to the fucking internet.

 

[...]

I hate posts where the OP is saying how hurt they were by a breakup or being in a bad relationship and some dude invalidates their pain by saying something like "So what? At least you had sex!"

This. Or they can't possibly fathom the idea that people would ctb over a lover so they call you stupid and tell you to just get another woman and completely miss the point.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

Why is sex that important that its an identity? There should be a better term. Like Prelove. Incel just makes it sound like they only care about sex, which is a negative connotation in itself.

Some societies do put a lot of emphasis on sex, so much to the point that it does become a part of your identity. In the culture that I live in sex can (and often is) used to judge a persons character; if you have not lost your virginity after a certain arbitrary cut-off age you will be judged with suspicion, as if being a virgin is a red flag that suggests that there is something "wrong" with you.

And yes perhaps labelling yourself as an incel does make it sound as if you only care about sex, but let us be honest: there are many people in the world who only care about sex - even if they do not like to admit it. The difference is that those who identify as incels tend to be more vocal about their desire for it.

Edit: it is similar to how in certain cultures money is used to judge the "worth" of a person. So, too, can sex act as a sort of currency.

 

[Chinaski]

Some societies do put a lot of emphasis on sex, so much to the point that it does become a part of your identity. In the culture that I live in sex can (and often is) used to judge a persons character; if you have not lost your virginity after a certain arbitrary cut-off age you will be judged with suspicion, as if being a virgin is a red flag that suggests that there is something "wrong" with you.

And yes perhaps labelling yourself as an incel does make it sound as if you only care about sex, but let us be honest: there are many people in the world who only care about sex - even if they do not like to admit it. The difference is that those who identify as incels tend to be more vocal about their desire for it.

The first paragraph - yes, tbh most of us understand that, the issue is how this frustration and rejection is expressed in objectively misogynistic language so frequently, freely and casually, on this website.

The second paragraph is weird as hell frankly, yes people think about sex a lot, as a younger man l dare say l was hornier than a marching brass band, but outwardly projecting a disdain for the opposite sex for denying you the sex to which you feel entitled should not be applauded for honesty, and it's absolutely bewildering to me how so many in this thread see fit to prioritise the feelings of the "lonely male" above acknowledging the existence of a commonly occurring, blatant misogyny on this forum.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

The first paragraph - yes, tbh most of us understand that, the issue is how this frustration and rejection is expressed in objectively misogynistic language so frequently, freely and casually, on this website.

The second paragraph is weird as hell frankly, yes people think about sex a lot, as a younger man l dare say l was hornier than a marching brass band, but outwardly projecting a disdain for the opposite sex for denying you the sex to which you feel entitled should not be applauded for honesty, and it's absolutely bewildering to me how so many in this thread see fit to prioritise the feelings of the "lonely male" above acknowledging the existence of a commonly occurring, blatant misogyny on this forum.

I do not see why the second paragraph is "wierd". Let me make something clear: my post was not on the side of supporting misogyny. It was specifically about how human beings in general highly prioritize sex, and not just those who identify as part of this "Incel" movement. Which is why caring a lot about sex, in and of itself, is not necessarily bad in my opinion, but rather how you express how you feel about it.

 

[Chinaski]

Now I finally believe that I understand what you intended to say all along.

Do you mean that expressions of genuine concern for male loneliness have the unintended consequence of validating misogynistic speech?

No, quite the opposite - that a lot of what is fundamentally misogynistic drivel finds its way on to this website in disguise as merely "male loneliness".

Nothing within this thread is about male loneliness, I'd wager posts about this offend literally nobody on this website. The conflation between male loneliness and misogyny is made by those making these aggro-sexism outbursts, not by those who are offended by it.

There is a clear difference between loneliness and misogyny which is clear to literally anybody, people just pretend there is an accidental crossover or misinterpretation when they want to excuse it.

 

[BluesRunTheGame]

No, quite the opposite - that a lot of what is fundamentally misogynistic drivel finds its way on to this website in disguise as merely "male loneliness".

Nothing within this thread is about male loneliness, I'd wager posts about this offend literally nobody on this website. The conflation between male loneliness and misogyny is made by those making these aggro-sexism outbursts, not by those who are offended by it.

There is a clear difference between loneliness and misogyny which is clear to literally anybody, people just pretend there is an accidental crossover or misinterpretation when they want to excuse it.

You do have a pretty ironic username though lol, Charles Bukowski's alter ego.

 

[Mixo]

Bumping

 

[Chinaski]

Bumping

I'm assuming from this there has been a, uh, "development"?

EDIT: ah yes, I've seen it, ffs

 

[Pluto]

A couple of thoughts.

Being unable to find a partner can be a devastating situation due to an aggregation of numerous substantial reasons. It can lead to social ostracisation, and makes it harder to find healthy friends since most of them want to talk about their partners. The death spiral of isolation means being branded a weirdo who is even less capable of attracting companionship. It can also be financially ruinous by eliminating the possibility of a double-income amidst rising living costs. Then there is the inevitably depressing isolation, the inability to share experiences, the absence of the myriad of health benefits of human affection, the torment of watching normal people actually live life while ageing... the list goes on.

That said, the tragedy of the internet is that victimhood cults have emerged which treat misogyny as some sort of enlightened interpretation of the specific niche situation of young male isolation. An error in logic becomes entrenched through repetition. They don't seem to notice the contradiction between wanting to love a woman and hating women. As with most internet victimhood cults, the end result is actually counterproductive and only leads to destruction.

It is important to offer guidance for such young men to support them to interpret their predicament in socially acceptable ways. Self-improvement is one, even if it is incompatible with the mindset of venting. Equally important is learning to empathise with the opposite-end-of-the-spectrum horrors afflicting their female counterparts who have been afflicted by predation in its myriad of forms.

 

[Chinaski]

A couple of thoughts.

Being unable to find a partner can be a devastating situation due to an aggregation of numerous substantial reasons. It can lead to social ostracisation, and makes it harder to find healthy friends since most of them want to talk about their partners. The death spiral of isolation means being branded a weirdo who is even less capable of attracting companionship. It can also be financially ruinous by eliminating the possibility of a double-income amidst rising living costs. Then there is the inevitably depressing isolation, the inability to share experiences, the absence of the myriad of health benefits of human affection, the torment of watching normal people actually live life while ageing... the list goes on.

That said, the tragedy of the internet is that victimhood cults have emerged which treat misogyny as some sort of enlightened interpretation of the specific niche situation of young male isolation. An error in logic becomes entrenched through repetition. They don't seem to notice the contradiction between wanting to love a woman and hating women. As with most internet victimhood cults, the end result is actually counterproductive and only leads to destruction.

It is important to offer guidance for such young men to support them to interpret their predicament in socially acceptable ways. Self-improvement is one, even if it is incompatible with the mindset of venting. Equally important is learning to empathise with the opposite-end-of-the-spectrum horrors afflicting their female counterparts who have been afflicted by predation in its myriad of forms.

Again, this depends on how these feelings are expressed. As stated earlier in the thread, l don't think anyone would have an issue with people expressing their feelings regarding loneliness and isolation on here, but people do have an aversion to some of the obnoxious misogyny, and in the latter case any guidance you suggest is offered must begin with challenging the use of misogynistic language not only for them, but for everybody else imo.

I'd also add that it sounds nice in theory but is quite a thankless task, again as detailed earlier in the thread.

 

[Pluto]

I'd also add that it sounds nice in theory but is quite a thankless task, again as detailed earlier in the thread.

I've been through it, too, and have ultimately gravitated to avoid threads like that (I've not even clicked on the recent one, for example). I feel like the voice of reason quickly gets drowned out by numerous people wanting to vent. These are the same social dynamics which created the victimhood cult in the first place and it is definitely problematic.

The most constructive suggestion I can make is having a clearer definition of where the line in the sand is drawn between venting and inappropriate language. Out of sympathy for newbies, it would be nice if they could be guided/educated rather than coming under fire in a moment of confusion and distress. But moderation is definitely called for and I would love to see this community a place where we are not divided into gender tribes.

 

[GentleJerk]

I'm assuming from this there has been a, uh, "development"?

EDIT: ah yes, I've seen it, ffs

Can someone please point out to me where these posts are? Granted, I'm not in the habit of thoroughly screening through lots of threads... But I don't seem to find many 'incellular' or misogynistic posts.

 

[Chinaski]

I've been through it, too, and have ultimately gravitated to avoid threads like that (I've not even clicked on the recent one, for example). I feel like the voice of reason quickly gets drowned out by numerous people wanting to vent. These are the same social dynamics which created the victimhood cult in the first place and it is definitely problematic.

The most constructive suggestion I can make is having a clearer definition of where the line in the sand is drawn between venting and inappropriate language. Out of sympathy for newbies, it would be nice if they could be guided/educated rather than coming under fire in a moment of confusion and distress. But moderation is definitely called for and I would love to see this community a place where we are not divided into gender tribes.

Tbf l agree but this is dependent upon the moderators sharing these views on this kind of language and l suspect the line of tolerance is drawn in a different place.

Can someone please point out to me where these posts are? Granted, I'm not in the habit of thoroughly screening through lots of threads... But I don't seem to find many 'incellular' or misogynistic posts.

It would probably be unkind to point out one particular post from one individual user but there's enough of it around, obviously this again depends on where your tolerance lies for misogynistic rhetoric.

 

[GentleJerk]

It would probably be unkind to point out one particular post from one individual user but there's enough of it around, obviously this again depends on where your tolerance lies for misogynistic rhetoric.

Understandable. I don't have any tolerance for outright hateful and misogynistic agendas, but if I were to see this sort of thing and felt the need to respond, my comments and objections would come from a place of reason and compassion. What I do see is some unfortunate self loathing and judgement coming from certain people who are obviously suffering from loneliness and/or rejection, and appear to be hurt by this in a way that skews their opinions on relationships and such. Honestly it's just sad more than anything. But I've never once seen things that are mentioned in this thread like a member saying they like to 'curb stomp' women, or unbridled hatred towards females. I simply have not seen anything like that.

 

[Chinaski]

Understandable. I don't have any tolerance for outright hateful and misogynistic agendas, but if I were to see this sort of thing and felt the need to respond, my comments and objections would come from a place of reason and compassion. What I do see is some unfortunate self loathing and judgement coming from certain people who are obviously suffering from loneliness and/or rejection, and appear to be hurt by this in a way that skews their opinions on relationships and such. Honestly it's just sad more than anything. But I've never once seen things that are mentioned in this thread like a member saying they like to 'curb stomp' women, or unbridled hatred towards females. I simply have not seen anything like that.

I too have not seen much in the way of outright violent threats, but obviously it doesn't have to contain a threat of violence to be misogynistic and, ultimately, offensive. I would kind of agree that it's "sad" but there are websites specifically to discuss inceldom in the way it's discussed here, l also think chat around sex worker procurement and the whole "how to get laid" chat is at best uncomfortable and this should not be tolerated as a dominant and recurring theme.

 

[goldenvirginia]

I noticed a member with a profile pic of Elliot Rodgers the other day…

 

[GentleJerk]

@Chinaski Yes, I agree with that. Of course it does not need to be violent or threatening. I didn't even know what an incel was before I came here luckily I haven't seen much of it, and I must not be noticing these posts about procuring sex workers and such either. If being sex-deprived is a reason for wanting to commit suicide then, I guess that's why these posts are around... Definitely unfortunate and uncomfortable.

I noticed a member with a profile pic of Elliot Rodgers the other day…

I know who you are talking about. Oddly enough, that user claims to be a female :0

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

l also think chat around sex worker procurement and the whole "how to get laid" chat is at best uncomfortable and this should not be tolerated as a dominant and recurring theme.

If theres literally a forum similar to this one for incels then yeah, that talk should be over there.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

People don't understand just how painful inceldom is, it's nothing like a "dry spell". This is maximum emotional damage (think about it in terms of evolutionary biology).

If theres literally a forum similar to this one for incels then yeah, that talk should be over there.

There's forums for relationship problems, abuse, cptsd, religion, philosophy, depression, anxiety, unemployment, money problems, etc. So let's not talk about anything, then? I had some beers, don't reply to this.

 

[Chinaski]

The reality is that most murder victims are male, most accidental deaths during dangerous work are suffered by men, most homeless persons are men and lastly but not least, most suicide victims are male. A quick searched yielded 73% of male victims of suicide in 2020 according to this report.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/VSRR016.pdf

It's very easy to see that the idea that women in the developed world have a harder time than men is just a useful illusion to rally a large group of people against another politically. Statistics show, rather, than being a man is harder in the 1st world. Since this is a suicide forum, maybe we can acknowledge that if one group catches the bus more than the other, they must be facing more hardships (or are worse at coping with them, which is very similar).

This is an absolutely disingenuous take delivered in an objectionably pious tone and I've no time for it.

Bringing murder statistics into this is weird. Nobody disputes that men murder men. Men also perpetrate sex crimes against other men. Men also perpetrate domestic violence towards other men. We can reheat statistics around this as much as we like, this does not diminish the very obvious fact that you're dismissing, which is that the "everyday" dangers a woman faces are very very different to those a man faces.

This isn't even a discussion about which gender has it "harder", the very fact that so many people seem keen to bring out half-baked pie-chart crap about how Actually lt ls Men Who Are Persecuted on this website is absurd, even more so that in this instance you'd play the "this is a suicide forum so be nice" card afterwards. Nobody should tolerate overt and obvious misogyny *anywhere* and it's frankly nauseating that you'd dump such a ridiculous take as "men have it worse because muh murder stats, any suggestion otherwise is political propaganda" and then suggest that female posters should defer to male posters on here because of suicide stats. Inceldom is not an ace card, a top trump in the hierarchy of suicidality, and its shitty rhetoric should not be tolerated because of whatever emotional blackmail you want to attempt with suicide stats.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

This is an absolutely disingenuous take delivered in an objectionably pious tone and I've no time for it.

Bringing murder statistics into this is weird. Nobody disputes that men murder men. Men also perpetrate sex crimes against other men. Men also perpetrate domestic violence towards other men. We can reheat statistics around this as much as we like, this does not diminish the very obvious fact that you're dismissing, which is that the "everyday" dangers a woman faces are very very different to those a man faces.

This isn't even a discussion about which gender has it "harder", the very fact that so many people seem keen to bring out half-baked pie-chart crap about how Actually lt ls Men Who Are Persecuted on this website is absurd, even more so that in this instance you'd play the "this is a suicide forum so be nice" card afterwards. Nobody should tolerate overt and obvious misogyny *anywhere* and it's frankly nauseating that you'd dump such a ridiculous take as "men have it worse because muh murder stats, any suggestion otherwise is political propaganda" and then suggest that female posters should defer to male posters on here because of suicide stats. Inceldom is not an ace card, a top trump in the hierarchy of suicidality, and its shitty rhetoric should not be tolerated because of whatever emotional blackmail you want to attempt with suicide stats.

You have the intellect to change people's minds instead of this emotional tantrum stuff you do in debates. If you'd just calm down, you'd actually win people over.

 

[Chinaski]

You have the intellect to change people's minds instead of this emotional tantrum stuff you do in debates. If you'd just calm down, you'd actually win people over.

Tbf if the person has read this whole thread and their takeaway was "you know what, I'm going to find some statistics on murder and then demand that male victimhood is duly respected on here" then there's little more l can do to persuade imo.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

Tbf if the person has read this whole thread and their takeaway was "you know what, I'm going to find some statistics on murder and then demand that male victimhood is duly respected on here" then there's little more l can do to persuade imo.

I believe you actually can. You underestimate yourself and your intelligence. I've seen you argue and your jokes, you basically give up on the people you debate with and post as if they're just gridlocked into their current opinion. It can be funny/entertaining, sure, for the people that think what you do. I don't have the brainpower to get into whatever facet of the gender war you were talking about this time, I just wanted to express this since I believe you are very intelligent and have your heart in the right place. Whenever I've debated with you, I've noticed that aside from the quick/emotional jabs you have some great thinking underneath. Sry, I am a little inebriated (using the auto-spell correct ten times per sentence now, should definitely not even post in controversial thread but fuck it). Much love.

 

[Chinaski]

I believe you actually can. You underestimate yourself and your intelligence. I've seen you argue and your jokes, you basically give up on the people you debate with and post as if they're just gridlocked into their current opinion. It can be funny/entertaining, sure, for the people that think what you do. I don't have the brainpower to get into whatever facet of the gender war you were talking about this time, I just wanted to express this since I believe you are very intelligent and have your heart in the right place. Whenever I've debated with you, I've noticed that aside from the quick/emotional jabs you have some great thinking underneath. Sry, I am a little inebriated (using the auto-spell correct ten times per sentence now, should definitely not even post in controversial thread but fuck it). Much love.

It is absolutely impossible to stay mad at you for long.

 

[YourNeighbor]

I understand that this site will continue to feature hateful posts and threads as long as mods allow them--that may just be an inescapable legacy of this site (which also makes it a much easier target in the public eye). That's too bad. There shouldn't even be a question about whether this site should be welcoming to women instead of those who hate them.

 

[settheory]

Imagine my situation on a broader scale - why would any man fight for the Ukraine, Russia, Europe or the USA in a possibly imminent war, given how "toxicly manly" they have been painted as by society?

Nobody does that. Nobody is labelled "toxically masculine" just because they are a man or join army.