I'm considering, just considering, Pegasos:

[fightingsioux]

How long before you would know if you are accepted, and is there a lot of paperwork you have to send them first? Do you have to pay for the "application?" It sounds pretty good on its face.

These are great questions and answered in the FAQ on their website. Peace.

Apropos of nothing in particular: Stan seemed like a really nice chap! We exchanged quite a few PM's, we agreed on many of the strengths and weaknesses of this site, I was so happy to help him with a bit of editing on his "new & improved" SN megathread.

He will be missed.

 

[c824767]

LOL, that would take a book!

I lived in Berkeley, California, in the late 60's and 70's, have lived in many places since then. Was a painter and poet and anti-war activist. Also involved in many, many endeavors trying to improve our whole society--to make it gentler, more inclusive, less sexist and racist, just a better place--and the right of an adult to die is one of those endeavors.

Have written, spoken, taught, painted and sculpted this philosophy for over 50 years.

Yes same with mindfulness, there was so much hope. Now people in the mindfulness "industry" are beginning to admit that they were hijacked by corporations to instil mindfulness so that workers would be guilted into enduring stressful situations. (Oh yes you have just had a mindfulness class you CANNOT take a day of for stress). The implications of admitting that we are sick with stress and feel assaulted by what we learn about the earth, are financially unsustainable. Most of us have mortgage debt and live pay check to pay check with credit card debt. If ever we get into a legal kerfaffle or become gravely ill, we face bankruptcy. The law was an ass in Dickens time and is an ass now. As are the banks. As is the medical system that deliberately under-prescribes things like Thyroid medication and sleeping aids. Most of us start the day with caffeine, are constantly tired and cannot sleep at night. I know it is a conspiracy theory but I do not dare to go see my doctor about my dysfunctional thyroid because he/she might decide that my levels are WAY too high and prescribe even less meds.

Everybody thinks they can make a difference, and it turns out to be a utopian dream. Let us start with Orson Welles placating the Yellow journalism of Hearst and Pulitzer... completely ignored by the public but Randolph Hearst gave him a hard time so he became "toxic" to Hollywood for a while and never made a movie again.

I want to be permitted to say that this is why I would like to die sooner than later and this is why I think most people with any sense will want to die and they need a way forward.

 

[realjunes]

To: fightingsioux and c824767.....as we used to say in California in the 60s....."right on" (to both of you).

 

[Idorus]

One of my questions involved the fact that I would be traveling alone and arriving alone. As it turns out, this is not allowed! You must have someone with you who can act as an "identifying person" after the assisted dying.

I don't believe that's a requirement in my country, reading the general mail foreigners get when approaching the clinic (see link).
You might even save money if you don't mind a cheap funeral of less than 1000 euro. Euthanasia via the end-of-life clinic here has been 2500 euro a little while ago and can't imagine it would be much more these days. Take a look... https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/euthanasia-in-the-netherlands.17122/

 

[fightingsioux]

I don't believe that's a requirement in my country, reading the general mail foreigners get when approaching the clinic (see link).
You might even save money if you don't mind a cheap funeral of less than 1000 euro. Euthanasia via the end-of-life clinic here has been 2500 euro a little while ago and can't imagine it would be much more these days. Take a look... https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/euthanasia-in-the-netherlands.17122/

The Levenseindekliniek is a fine organization doing great and much-needed work, but I don't feel that it's a viable alternative for me, at least at this point.

The main difficulties are the necessity to actually acquire residence in the Netherlands; a long, rather complicated, expensive investigation into whether or not you meet the criteria, with no guarantee of success; and the fairly rigorous criteria of the Dutch Euthanasia Act, all of which must be met.

If Pegasos turns out not to be an option for me, I think that I'll just stay in the U.S. and pick a self-delivery method, all of which I'm still researching.

I sincerely thank you for your kind concern, and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[realjunes]

The Levenseindekliniek is a fine organization doing great and much-needed work, but I don't feel that it's a viable alternative for me, at least at this point.

The main difficulties are the necessity to actually acquire residence in the Netherlands; a long, rather complicated, expensive investigation into whether or not you meet the criteria, with no guarantee of success; and the fairly rigorous criteria of the Dutch Euthanasia Act, all of which must be met.

If Pegasos turns out not to be an option for me, I think that I'll just stay in the U.S. and pick a self-delivery method, all of which I'm still researching.

I sincerely thank you for your kind concern, and I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks to Idorus for sharing that information. Fascinating, a culture moving rapidly to a sensible compassionate society. Kudos to you. And if the people of your country are as kind and giving as you, we may all move there en masse ! LOL

 

[fightingsioux]

Thanks to Idorus for sharing that information. Fascinating, a culture moving rapidly to a sensible compassionate society. Kudos to you. And if the people of your country are as kind and giving as you, we may all move there en masse ! LOL

Could not agree more. The Dutch have always had a kinder, more enlightened, more compassionate society than that of the U.S., and as you say, they are moving in the right direction while we are moving backwards!

However, as I replied to Idorus, of understandable necessity they have a long list of criteria that must be met. Whether we're discussing the Dutch, Dignitas, Pegasos, or even the nine-or-so U.S. states that allow physician-assisted suicide the most contentious and controversial question is criteria.

Some folks say no criteria, available to anyone who asks. Some want it very tightly controlled, only for the most extreme situations of imminently painful death. Others fall somewhere in the middle.

I don't know, it's a tough one, been wrestling with it my whole life. Your thoughts?

 

[Berlin76]

Could not agree more. The Dutch have always had a kinder, more enlightened, more compassionate society than that of the U.S., and as you say, they are moving in the right direction while we are moving backwards!

However, as I replied to Idorus, of understandable necessity they have a long list of criteria that must be met. Whether we're discussing the Dutch, Dignitas, Pegasos, or even the nine-or-so U.S. states that allow physician-assisted suicide the most contentious and controversial question is criteria.

Some folks say no criteria, available to anyone who asks. Some want it very tightly controlled, only for the most extreme situations of imminently painful death. Others fall somewhere in the middle.

I don't know, it's a tough one, been wrestling with it my whole life. Your thoughts?

Pros of Switzerland is you can apply as foreigner and cons with the dutch euthanasia organization you really need to be a citizen of holland. So first money to move here and live and pay bills and then the whole proces.

That includes over a year waitinglist.
I applied in August 2018 just now i had 2 interviews with the euthanasia team

Could not agree more. The Dutch have always had a kinder, more enlightened, more compassionate society than that of the U.S., and as you say, they are moving in the right direction while we are moving backwards!

However, as I replied to Idorus, of understandable necessity they have a long list of criteria that must be met. Whether we're discussing the Dutch, Dignitas, Pegasos, or even the nine-or-so U.S. states that allow physician-assisted suicide the most contentious and controversial question is criteria.

Some folks say no criteria, available to anyone who asks. Some want it very tightly controlled, only for the most extreme situations of imminently painful death. Others fall somewhere in the middle.

I don't know, it's a tough one, been wrestling with it my whole life. Your thoughts?

What are your health issues?
Because mental health issues only have small chance off success.

At application 50% gets rejected.
The people who are approved for the process again of that amount around 40/50% will get rejected because of multiple reasons. That can be they need more therapy or they just dont feell confortable with the euthanasia.
Thats also because euthanasia is not legal it is held by law and when done to early or not carefully handled can be seen as murder by justice department.

 

[fightingsioux]

Pros of Switzerland is you can apply as foreigner and cons with the dutch euthanasia organization you really need to be a citizen of holland. So first money to move here and live and pay bills and then the whole proces.

That includes over a year waitinglist.
I applied in August 2018 just now i had 2 interviews with the euthanasia team


What are your health issues?
Because mental health issues only have small chance off success.

At application 50% gets rejected.
The people who are approved for the process again of that amount around 40/50% will get rejected because of multiple reasons. That can be they need more therapy or they just dont feell confortable with the euthanasia.
Thats also because euthanasia is not legal it is held by law and when done to early or not carefully handled can be seen as murder by justice department.

Agree with everything you said, 100% accurate, why I'm not pursuing that alternative.

My health issue is completely physical: I'm 71, have progressive Peripheral Neuropathy, rapidly losing all mobility.

 

[Berlin76]

Agree with everything you said, 100% accurate, why I'm not pursuing that alternative.

My health issue is completely physical: I'm 71, have progressive Peripheral Neuropathy, rapidly losing all mobility.

That sounds terrible.
But cases like that are more likely to get full approval. Because of the degrading mobility. So that is positive

 

[WilliamKline]

Just backing up @fightingsioux here against the slander of @AnnaJaspers. I have just checked all the information OP provided on Pegasus myself and see no falsehoods. Please refrain from posting slanderous messages in public when you apparently have a personal feud

 

[Jean4]

Just backing up @fightingsioux here against the slander of @AnnaJaspers. I have just checked all the information OP provided on Pegasus myself and see no falsehoods. Please refrain from posting slanderous messages in public when you apparently have a personal feud

Even though I don't know @fightingsioux personally, he was a friend of Stan. That's good enough for me.

Things are horrible enough. We don't need to turn against each other. If you do not like someone, block. Problem solved. No. Not everyone will get along. It's the way of the world. But we can act like adults and be courteous.

 

[Idorus]

Well it's clear the clinic is pushing their boundaries with foreigners although not made public (yet). And I'm sure they will treat your request honourably and conscientiously if the option for foreigners is there - as seen in the general mail. They screen you on distance so you know at the least whether it will be worth finding residence here to go into the traject. You don't have to LIVE here for that, you just need residence for a certain period of time in which they will screen you in real. The difference is, if you officially LIVE here (being a dutch citizen or not) the entire traject will be covered by health insurance and if you don't live here you have to pay it yourself. And so I can only assume that if they decide it will be worth for you coming to here they will have some organized time frame in which it will be all happening.

 

[WilliamKline]

Even though I don't know @fightingsioux personally, he was a friend of Stan. That's good enough for me.

Things are horrible enough. We don't need to turn against each other. If you do not like someone, block. Problem solved. No. Not everyone will get along. It's the way of the world. But we can act like adults and be courteous.

I understand your loss and feel for you, although I didn't know Stan personally I've valued him enormously, you have my sympathies.

I do not see blocking people as a solution to the practice of members here discrediting other members' posts without any facts to back them up. My point being that many people read these posts, few respond and thus false messages are still going unchallenged when well.. they're not challenged. This is not a personal thing, just my two cents.

 

[Jean4]

I understand your loss and feel for you, although I didn't know Stan personally I've valued him enormously, you have my sympathies.

I do not see blocking people as a solution to the practice of members here discrediting other members' posts without any facts to back them up. My point being that many people read these posts, few respond and thus false messages are still going unchallenged when well.. they're not challenged. This is not a personal thing, just my two cents.

If they are blocked, they can't discredit. Thus no personal attacks. ;)

And thank you for the kind words.

 

[WilliamKline]

If they are blocked, they can't discredit. Thus no personal attacks. ;)

And thank you for the kind words.

If you're not a user/member you can't block. Thus you can't help seeing all posts. It just takes a little bit of denial and misinformation to spead doubt when in fact there really is none. Anyway, this distracts from the topic at hand so I'll STFU from here on out

 

[Jean4]

If you're not a user/member you can't block. Thus you can't help seeing all posts. It just takes a little bit of denial and misinformation to spead doubt when in fact there really is none.

Then report it immediately to a moderator. Trust me. They were on it. Stan and I were playing back and forth. I got contacted immediately and was warned not to troll him lol.

Bottom line. We have to keep this a safe place. We have to fight off the pro lifers and other trolls. It may be just my opinion, but report it to the moderator.

 

[WilliamKline]

Then report it immediately to a moderator. Trust me. They were on it. Stan and I were playing back and forth. I got contacted immediately and was warned not to troll him lol.

Bottom line. We have to keep this a safe place. We have to fight off the pro lifers and other trolls. It may be just my opinion, but report it to the moderator.

Hey it's almost like assisted suicide, no need to take matters into your own hands if you can ask the good doctor

 

[Roger]

Just backing up @fightingsioux here against the slander of @AnnaJaspers. I have just checked all the information OP provided on Pegasus myself and see no falsehoods. Please refrain from posting slanderous messages in public when you apparently have a personal feud

Libel, not slander.

 

[Sensei]

I would most likely never use a service like this, but I can certainly see the appeal. I imagine it would feel a little bit like going to the hospital and get a vaccination shot from the doctor. Reassuring and, in a way, innocent.

 

[Nozzlehead]

I would most likely never use a service like this, but I can certainly see the appeal. I imagine it would feel a little bit like going to the hospital and get a vaccination shot from the doctor. Reassuring and, in a way, innocent.

Why wouldn't you if I may ask?

 

[Sensei]

Why wouldn't you if I may ask?

There are several reasons, some of them which have been mentioned already, but the most important one is that you have to set a date, or at least so I assume. When the time comes, I might not be ready to go yet. There's a time and place for everything, and that includes suicide.

 

[Nozzlehead]

There are several reasons, some of them which have been mentioned already, but the most important one is that you have to set a date, or at least so I assume. When the time comes, I might not be ready to go yet. There's a time and place for everything, and that includes suicide.

It's quite the opposite for me. I would want a date so I can feel relieved knowing it's all gonna be over on that date.

 

[Sensei]

It's quite the opposite for me. I would want a date so I can feel relieved knowing it's all gonna be over on that date.

It's fascinating that all of us have such different views on suicide. Why, how, when, where etc. I mean, we all want the same thing in the end.

 

[fightingsioux]

There are several reasons, some of them which have been mentioned already, but the most important one is that you have to set a date, or at least so I assume. When the time comes, I might not be ready to go yet. There's a time and place for everything, and that includes suicide.

Yes, you do have to set a date and keep it! Also, remember that if one is coming from any distance away, travel plans, airline tickets, all that kind of stuff must be planned in advance. You're correct, it doesn't exactly lend itself to spontaneity.

The IV is as simple as can be. The only twist is that in order to comply with the part of Swiss law that states that the person who wants assistance must have control over his/her death, that person must turn a little wheel on the IV opening the flow.

This follows the same general control philosophy of the famous Dr. Jack Kevorkian: both his Thanatron machine (using chemicals) and his Mercitron machine (using gas) required the person themself to turn the machine on. Likewise, Dr. Philip Nitsche's Deliverance Machine uses a computer connected to an IV that asks the person some questions that must be answered affirmatively before the lethal dose is delivered.

IMHO it's obviously all a rather silly charade, but necessary to comply with current laws.

 

[Soul]

... The only twist is that in order to comply with the part of Swiss law that states that the person who wants assistance must have control over his/her death, that person must turn a little wheel on the IV opening the flow.

This follows the same general control philosophy of the famous Dr. Jack Kevorkian: both his Thanatron machine (using chemicals) and his Mercitron machine (using gas) required the person themself to turn the machine on. Likewise, Dr. Philip Nitsche's Deliverance Machine uses a computer connected to an IV that asks the person some questions that must be answered affirmatively before the lethal dose is delivered.

IMHO it's obviously all a rather silly charade, but necessary to comply with current laws.

It's also a balancing act with one of my misgivings about using a service like this one: I'm not sure I feel it's okay to involve another person in killing me, even if they're willing to. Is having to push my own little IV wheel enough to convince me I'm really doing it on my own? Hm. Maybe?

But that's just me being an oddball. It sounds like a good place, even though it's awfully expensive. Can we write and ask if they'd consider a bulk rate if we all sign up together? 8]

 

[fightingsioux]

It's also a balancing act with one of my misgivings about using a service like this one: I'm not sure I feel it's okay to involve another person in killing me, even if they're willing to. Is having to push my own little IV wheel enough to convince me I'm really doing it on my own? Hm. Maybe?

But that's just me being an oddball. It sounds like a good place, even though it's awfully expensive. Can we write and ask if they'd consider a bulk rate if we all sign up together? 8]

LOL. The bulk rate idea is one I've never heard before, brilliant!

I agree with your first paragraph entirely, and that's what I was trying to suggest by saying it's all a rather silly charade to technically comply with the law. You certainly are involving others, you're certainly not doing it on your own.

 

[Roger]

But that's just me being an oddball. It sounds like a good place, even though it's awfully expensive. Can we write and ask if they'd consider a bulk rate if we all sign up together? 8]

Would there be a waiting room with us all sitting there reading old glossy magazines, waiting for the "Next Please" ?

 

[AnnaJaspers]

LOL. The bulk rate idea is one I've never heard before, brilliant!

I agree with your first paragraph entirely, and that's what I was trying to suggest by saying it's all a rather silly charade to technically comply with the law. You certainly are involving others, you're certainly not doing it on your own.

This smacks of pro-life rhetoric, I don't even know where to begin. How dare you implicitly suggest that choosing assistance is somehow cowardly, wrong, immoral. These services exist for a reason, very good reasons, including but not limited to: guaranteed death, not being left a vegetable, tacit acknowledgement that life is not inherently "good" and we should help those in pain.

You are doing it "on your own"--with assistance. Therein lies the difference between a lonely suicide and involuntary euthanasia.

Why are you constantly pedalling your pro-life views onto others?

 

[fightingsioux]

This smacks of pro-life rhetoric, I don't even know where to begin. How dare you implicitly suggest that choosing assistance is somehow cowardly, wrong, immoral. These services exist for a reason, very good reasons, including but not limited to: guaranteed death, not being left a vegetable, tacit acknowledgement that life is not inherently "good" and we should help those in pain.

You are doing it "on your own"--with assistance. Therein lies the difference between a lonely suicide and involuntary euthanasia.

Why are you constantly pedalling your pro-life views onto others?

You are reported.