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Artemisia

Experienced
May 24, 2024
220
You are treating yourself like you are a psychologist and you are being condescending and rude to other users. You are just some nobody online who is trying to play armchair psychologist.

Also, my reaction isn't some amazing feat. You are interacting with me, of course, I'm going to react. Along with that, you are trying to gauge my reaction based purely on written text, which isn't a very good method of studying others and how they react. Without being able to read my body language the only thing you have to rely on is the tone in which you my replies.

The OP is likely to do nothing with your comment.

Also, really? You are basing this off your own past experiences? As though somehow that is an accurate way of measuring the probability of how others would react to it? You've got to be kidding me? This is just sad, lol.

I'm genuinely curious about how you interact with other humans, if not based on your past experiences and understanding of them. Using an itemized list? You really can't predict how people will react a reasonable amount of times, based on human nature in general and personal cues? That is truly baffling to me, although I'm aware it's a common trait of autistic people. It's definitely not a good base though if you're intending to work as a psychologist, and you'll take this as you want, but I'll stand and reiterate that not just for such work but also life in general, having the ability to read others is a huge advantage. That comes from analysing how they have prior interacted with you and others. Books and theory help a bit, but that's not where you'll learn it.
 
Spreadingmywings

Spreadingmywings

Member
May 22, 2019
82
I'm genuinely curious about how you interact with other humans, if not based on your past experiences and understanding of them. Using an itemized list? You really can't predict how people will react a reasonable amount of times, based on human nature in general and personal cues? That is truly baffling to me, although I'm aware it's a common trait of autistic people. It's definitely not a good base though if you're intending to work as a psychologist, and you'll take this as you want, but I'll stand and reiterate that not just for such work but also life in general, having the ability to read others is a huge advantage. That comes from analysing how they have prior interacted with you and others. Books and theory help a bit, but that's not where you'll learn it.


from 18 to 29 it could get worse and by worse I mean you can remain KHHV; if you don't discover God before getting Alzheimer's, it's over.
 
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innominesatanas44

innominesatanas44

🇷🇸
Feb 16, 2023
165
Imagine being suicidal because you have been brainwashed into thinking that the act which takes 5.4 minutes on average is the epitome of existence and the only thing which will give you worth lol
 
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lamargue

lamargue

pugilist
Jun 5, 2024
237
Imagine being suicidal because you have been brainwashed into thinking that the act which takes 5.4 minutes on average is the epitome of existence and the only thing which will give you worth lol
never implied thats the sole reason. just a contributing factor rofl
I'm genuinely curious about how you interact with other humans, if not based on your past experiences and understanding of them. Using an itemized list? You really can't predict how people will react a reasonable amount of times, based on human nature in general and personal cues? That is truly baffling to me, although I'm aware it's a common trait of autistic people. It's definitely not a good base though if you're intending to work as a psychologist, and you'll take this as you want, but I'll stand and reiterate that not just for such work but also life in general, having the ability to read others is a huge advantage. That comes from analysing how they have prior interacted with you and others. Books and theory help a bit, but that's not where you'll learn it.
who is to say that you do understand people? perhaps you are only projecting the features of your psychotype. clearly you understood no cues from this thread and were trying to project your own baseless assertions to further your sense of self-worth
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,216
Imagine being suicidal because you have been brainwashed into thinking that the act which takes 5.4 minutes on average is the epitome of existence and the only thing which will give you worth lol
One way to look at it is that it really is the only thing that gives every biological being any semblance of worth. Without reproduction there is no meaning to life, at least that's what millions of years of evolution have programmed most organisms to believe. That it only takes a few minutes or even seconds for some doesn't matter. Being a quick shot is technically an evolutionary advantage even though it is ultimately unsatisfying overall. Of course it's possible for some higher beings to be able to want more and find fulfillment elsewhere but you simply can't expect everyone else to suddenly evolve past their primary function, at least that's what I am speaking for myself.

Another way to look at it is that earning the privilege (not a right, and certainly not something anyone is entitled to) of having sex is only a piece of the puzzle albeit a big one that makes most of the other pieces easier to solve for many people, it's not the sole reason for meaning but it's merely a perk to the overall benefits of a lifelong romantic intimate partnership. It's like being an American and needing a job with health insurance benefits. Yeah it's not technically required to live or work, it's an arbitrary requirement forced onto us by society and other institutions but it's still seen as a necessary part of most jobs anyway.

But maybe I'm completely wrong on both counts. My brain kind of shut down here but basically what I'm trying to say is sex is just one part of what some people are actually craving which is still hard to obtain even if you exclude one part or another…
 
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lamargue

lamargue

pugilist
Jun 5, 2024
237
Another way to look at it is that the privilege (not a right, and certainly not something anyone is entitled to) of having sex is only a piece of the puzzle albeit a big one that makes most of the other pieces easier to solve for many people, it's not the sole reason for meaning but it's merely a perk to the overall benefits of a lifelong romantic intimate partnership. It's like being an American and needing a job with health insurance benefits. Yeah it's not technically required to live or work but it's seen as a necessary part of most fields these days anyway.
this is a very accurate description. to me there must be some import in the act when sexual experiences are viewed as pivotal in attaining a good life. one can always undermine its importance when they establish more transcendental values, though from the perspective of sex this is just a development from sexual liberty to love or intimacy.
 
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innominesatanas44

innominesatanas44

🇷🇸
Feb 16, 2023
165
One way to look at it is that it really is the only thing that gives every biological being any semblance of worth. Without reproduction there is no meaning to life, at least that's what millions of years of evolution have programmed most organisms to believe. That it only takes a few minutes or even seconds for some doesn't matter. Being a quick shot is technically an evolutionary advantage even though it is ultimately unsatisfying overall. Of course it's possible for some higher beings to be able to want more and find fulfillment elsewhere but you simply can't expect everyone else to suddenly evolve past their primary function, at least that's what I am speaking for myself.
What about infertile people? Are they not biological beings, do they not have worth?
 
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lamargue

lamargue

pugilist
Jun 5, 2024
237
What about infertile people? Are they not biological beings, do they not have worth?
its a matter of self-worth. the only person who determines that is yourself, and you are constrained to the rules of the game. so people that are infertile are obliged to seek value in other things, but it is understandable if they view themselves as being worthless because of their infertility. value is not objective
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,216
What about infertile people? Are they not biological beings, do they not have worth?
If they themselves felt that way, who would you be to tell them they are wrong about their own assessment of themselves? Regardless, I believe it's up to everyone to decide for themselves what gives them value or not whatever the metric they use. I believe if I were infertile then I would be worthless because I know I have nothing else of value left to offer but that doesn't mean every other infertile person is the same. That's up to them to decide.
 
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innominesatanas44

innominesatanas44

🇷🇸
Feb 16, 2023
165
My point being that I used to agonize and obsess over being khv for hours daily for a long time, until I met a woman who obsessed over me the way I obsessed over others, and it was the most repulsive and pathetic situation I've ever seen, the denigration of self worth over someone who didn't even care if you died the next day and I realized that I was only socially pressured so strongly to believed into caring about this dumb shit.
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,216
My point being that I used to agonize and obsess over being khv for hours daily for a long time, until I met a woman who obsessed over me the way I obsessed over others, and it was the most repulsive and pathetic situation I've ever seen, the denigration of self worth over someone who didn't even care if you died the next day and I realized that I was only socially pressured so strongly to believed into caring about this dumb shit.
Fair enough. That's what you decided for yourself and I am glad that you've at least gotten to discover a truth about what matters to you. Have you since found anything better to live for then or is suicide really the only answer? Any suggestion is good but if the answer is to "live for yourself" or something like that then it's still great for you that that works but I already know that isn't going to be the answer for me sadly. 😔
 
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derpyderpins

derpyderpins

Proud Normie
Sep 19, 2023
1,336
Imagine being suicidal because you have been brainwashed into thinking that the act which takes 5.4 minutes on average is the epitome of existence and the only thing which will give you worth lol
I wouldn't minimize the importance of sex. Plus beyond the act of sex I think it's more about the feelings of intimacy and connection.

Regardless, I believe it's up to everyone to decide for themselves what gives them value or not whatever the metric they use. I believe if I were infertile then I would be worthless because I know I have nothing else of value left to offer but that doesn't mean every other infertile person is the same. That's up to them to decide.
You can tell this logic is faulty because it doesn't work both ways. If a serial rapist murderer who intends to continue serial raping and murdering decides using his own metric that he's extremely valuable ... he's wrong. Self worth and actual worth are different, and people do in fact have actual worth. It's not an easy formula, I can't tell you the exact metrics, but people largely agree on certain general concepts (murder bad, helping others good), meaning there is some truth out there, even if it has to be flexible in nature.
 
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lamargue

lamargue

pugilist
Jun 5, 2024
237
I wouldn't minimize the importance of sex. Plus beyond the act of sex I think it's more about the feelings of intimacy and connection.


You can tell this logic is faulty because it doesn't work both ways. If a serial rapist murderer who intends to continue serial raping and murdering decides using his own metric that he's extremely valuable ... he's wrong. Self worth and actual worth are different, and people do in fact have actual worth. It's not an easy formula, I can't tell you the exact metrics, but people largely agree on certain general concepts (murder bad, helping others good), meaning there is some truth out there, even if it has to be flexible in nature.
that's a moral distinction, though. value consists in utility, producing real-world outcomes. this is why i said that we are constrained to the rules of the game. a serial killer must have some notion of normative values; he is merely transgressing them, which establishes his own power. i don't think its useful to view value as originating from the net good of an individual.
 
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derpyderpins

derpyderpins

Proud Normie
Sep 19, 2023
1,336
that's a moral distinction, though. value consists in utility, producing real-world outcomes. this is why i said that we are constrained to the rules of the game. a serial killer must have some notion of normative values; he is merely transgressing them, which establishes his own power. i don't think its useful to view value as originating from the net good of an individual.
What's the difference, to you, between "utility" and "net good"?
 
lamargue

lamargue

pugilist
Jun 5, 2024
237
What's the difference, to you, between "utility" and "net good"?
net good is a moral claim, while utility is a personal criterion for how much use a person is to others. production value is utility. but there are NEETs on here who do not view such as a virtue, so hence not contributing to a net good.
there are also those who contribute in immaterial ways which i would also call utility. an intellectual can have harmful ideas but pose interesting problems which provide some measure of utility.
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,216
You can tell this logic is faulty because it doesn't work both ways. If a serial rapist murderer who intends to continue serial raping and murdering decides using his own metric that he's extremely valuable ... he's wrong. Self worth and actual worth are different, and people do in fact have actual worth. It's not an easy formula, I can't tell you the exact metrics, but people largely agree on certain general concepts (murder bad, helping others good), meaning there is some truth out there, even if it has to be flexible in nature.
Just because someone considers themselves valuable it doesn't mean they actually are, it's true and you're right there. I simply think it just makes more sense to let people think what they want to about themselves at least when it comes to matters such as suicide and not if it's going to encourage or incite any extremely awful actions or beliefs. If it's gotten to that point then yeah obviously that person can't really be trusted to have an accurate picture of anything but I was more referring to letting regular people have the freedom to determine for themselves whether their life is worth living or not. Even a rapist serial killer could still think they don't deserve to live and they'd probably be right but why wait for everyone who feels that way to even do such horrible things instead of letting them decide to opt out of life before they can cause such actions?
 
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cait_sith

cait_sith

Brain rotted, often missing word
Apr 8, 2024
110
from 18 to 29 it could get worse and by worse I mean you can remain KHHV; if you don't discover God before getting Alzheimer's, it's over.
Why is it over if you don't discover god before Alzheimer's?
If anything, Alzheimer's will make you discover god again and again, as you will keep on forgetting where you put him.
 
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derpyderpins

derpyderpins

Proud Normie
Sep 19, 2023
1,336
net good is a moral claim, while utility is a personal criterion for how much use a person is to others. production value is utility. but there are NEETs on here who do not view such as a virtue, so hence not contributing to a net good.
Yeah I know the NEET argument (at least on here. I have no problem with the concept of being a NEET if you don't pressure others to take care of you): contributing to society is bad, but y'all still better contribute so I can be taken care of.

I'll admit I'm still having trouble understanding your view. First, you say "value consists in utility, producing real-world outcomes," so I ask you what utility means to you and you say "production value is utility." You see how that's kinda circular? Plus your reference to "real-world" outcomes suggests objectivity. To me, it reads like you know there is a component of value that is objective, but you don't want that to be the case.

My saying the definition of worth is flexible can be better explained by saying there are objective and subjective components to "value" or worth or whatever we want to call it, but imo the objective component can't be written off and is significant.
Just because someone considers themselves valuable it doesn't mean they actually are, it's true and you're right there. I simply think it just makes more sense to let people think what they want to about themselves at least when it comes to matters such as suicide and not if it's going to encourage or incite any extremely awful actions or beliefs. If it's gotten to that point then yeah obviously that person can't really be trusted to have an accurate picture of anything but I was more referring to letting regular people have the freedom to determine for themselves whether their life is worth living or not. Even a rapist serial killer could still think they don't deserve to live and they'd probably be right but why wait for everyone who feels that way to even do such horrible things instead of letting them decide to opt out of life before they can cause such actions?
I don't think we're in disagreement. It's a matter of terms and definitions. I don't think the choice to ctb is directly based on self-worth. You can think you are a very valuable person but still find that - for yourself - your life is not worth living. Ie. Actual value = high, self worth = also high, satisfaction = horrible. I think those are possible at the same time.
 
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lamargue

lamargue

pugilist
Jun 5, 2024
237
I'll admit I'm still having trouble understanding your view. First, you say "value consists in utility, producing real-world outcomes," so I ask you what utility means to you and you say "production value is utility." You see how that's kinda circular? Plus your reference to "real-world" outcomes suggests objectivity. To me, it reads like you know there is a component of value that is objective, but you don't want that to be the case.
like i said, net good is a moral distinction. production value can be seen as utility since it can be argued whether or not you really make any contribution to the world. sure, it is necessary for societies to function, but only insofar as people uphold a shared belief that their efforts are real contributions. but production value is independent of whether or not you really are making a difference. it's not objective because value, to me, cannot be objective. that would be like saying that the universe has some source code which applies value to any organism willing to co-operate and sustain themselves; mechanisms for offering rewards based on desirable attributes is certainly a neo-darwinian idea, but i don't think it is valid in the case of more subtle definitions of personal value. it is purely in reference to the nature of how value is inherited from the society, hence why we are constrained to the rules of the game.
 
derpyderpins

derpyderpins

Proud Normie
Sep 19, 2023
1,336
like i said, net good is a moral distinction. production value can be seen as utility since it can be argued whether or not you really make any contribution to the world. sure, it is necessary for societies to function, but only insofar as people uphold a shared belief that their efforts are real contributions. but production value is independent of whether or not you really are making a difference. it's not objective because value, to me, cannot be objective. that would be like saying that the universe has some source code which applies value to any being willing to co-operate and sustain themselves. it is purely in reference to the nature of how value is inherited from the society, hence why we are constrained to the rules of the game.
I think I understand now. Something like "humans are so small and insignificant that their social thoughts can't possibly matter in the big picture so any 'value' they may assign only applies in that closed system that is their society and therefore is not 'value' at all." Close?

The "game" to you doesn't seem to just be social norms, it's all of human existence, which is pretty sad imo, but I can work with it. We can say that when I'm discussing the concept of value I am in fact looking only within the closed system - the "game". Within the game, there are truths and objective realities concerning value.
 
innominesatanas44

innominesatanas44

🇷🇸
Feb 16, 2023
165
Fair enough. That's what you decided for yourself and I am glad that you've at least gotten to discover a truth about what matters to you. Have you since found anything better to live for then or is suicide really the only answer? Any suggestion is good but if the answer is to "live for yourself" or something like that then it's still great for you that that works but I already know that isn't going to be the answer for me sadly. 😔
I don't live for myself, I don't live for other people either, I live like a spectator. This is a bit hard to answer whether suicide is better or not because I am at a spot where things could become either liveable or worse than death, it will depend solely on my luck in the next few months. Things I live for, well it's a shit answer but I'm the type who wants to be an expert in many things, so I will often pursue for months one interest and move onto the next, and like to learn as much of different areas in the world as I can, just trying to forget about reality for now with video games, sports, whatnot. The absolute most important for me is lots of time in nature and taking care of animals, but unfortunately it depends on your geography, I don't know how city people don't want to die. It's not very helpful answer
 
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lamargue

lamargue

pugilist
Jun 5, 2024
237
I think I understand now. Something like "humans are so small and insignificant that their social thoughts can't possibly matter in the big picture so any 'value' they may assign only applies in that closed system that is their society and therefore is not 'value' at all." Close?

The "game" to you doesn't seem to just be social norms, it's all of human existence, which is pretty sad imo, but I can work with it. We can say that when I'm discussing the concept of value I am in fact looking only within the closed system - the "game". Within the game, there are truths and objective realities concerning value.
essentially. the game are just the constructs which give meaning to our personal values; we can never hope to deflate the role which this plays in assigning value, since we are restricted to thinking of value only within the closed system
i think that moral distinctions can be objective. but this does not entail that personal value can be. they feature overlap, but the former is not necessary for the latter
 
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Nobody Special

Nobody Special

Member
Jun 4, 2024
53
Eh, women are too difficult to understand for me, hahaha. I have gone through a girl crazy phase before, but after seeing how many relationships end in disaster... I have sort of lost hope and any serious interest in romance.

Something that helps me...

It is very rare for someone to be "ugly"

Think about what that word truly means. I doubt no one has ever found you attractive. Women never approach men. Not even "handsome" ones.

Not fitting conventional beauty standards doesn't make one "ugly" necessarily.

If this is a hang-up for you... I would try asking out girls that are low-stakes. Women that other guys may ignore. You'd be surprised at what you get.
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,216
If this is a hang-up for you... I would try asking out girls that are low-stakes. Women that other guys may ignore. You'd be surprised at what you get.
Even if they were to say yes, this sounds kind of mean. Especially if they were to find out that one only had the courage to ask them out if they weren't seen as attractive enough. This mentality probably contributes to a lot of the troubles women have on the dating scene too. 🤔
 
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Nobody Special

Nobody Special

Member
Jun 4, 2024
53
Even if they were to say yes, this sounds kind of mean. Especially if they were to find out that one only had the courage to ask them out if they weren't seen as attractive enough. This mentality probably contributes to a lot of the troubles women have on the dating scene too. 🤔
I didn't mean in that way. Apologies. I'm saying a lot of men that I have talked to have really strict requirements for their partner's appearance. I was attempting to phrase this in a better way but it appears I had no such couth.

If you are an individual who does fit with in certain beauty standards...

Try approaching others who are similar to you in that respect.
I didn't mean in that way. Apologies. I'm saying a lot of men that I have talked to have really strict requirements for their partner's appearance. I was attempting to phrase this in a better way but it appears I had no such couth.

If you are an individual who does fit with in certain beauty standards...

Try approaching others who are similar to you in that respect.
Or you could chase after super hot chicks that have men who are "Chad" chasing after her!

:pfff::ahhha:
 
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