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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
1,068
The evidence is that there are happy adults that report having happy childhoods and now have stable lives. What you're doing is claiming that you know better about other people than they do. These claims you're making are so dishonest. And I'm speaking as someone that was used as an object as a child. But I have the reason to know that's not everyone.
What evidence? You just keep on saying evidence over and over again. Being a happy adult doesn't mean anything. Do you think that happy adults with shitty childhoods don't exist? Are you really going to ignore the large portion of unhappy dysfunctional adults out there and focus on the few good ones? Do you really think that in a world where child abuse is normalized in most places that most of these "happy adults" are going to be completely honest and accurate in their reporting of their childhoods? You're just spewing nonsense because you can't accept the truth.
 
T

thenamingofcats

annihilation anxiety
Apr 19, 2024
276
What evidence? You just keep on saying evidence over and over again. Being a happy adult doesn't mean anything. Do you think that happy adults with shitty childhoods don't exist? Are you really going to ignore the large portion of unhappy dysfunctional adults out there and focus.on the few good ones? Do you really think that in a world where child abuse is normalized in most places that most of these "happy adults" are going to be completely honest ans accurate in their reporting of their childhoods? You're just spewing nonsense because you can't accept the truth.
You're not reading my responses carefully. I said happy adults that report having happy childhoods. Since this is all subjective anyway, yes we have to believe them. That's how subjective research works. You sound very, very young like you need a lot more life experience and the black and white thinking isn't helping either. Whether you like it or not, there are happy people out there that you can't bring down to your level.
 
EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
1,068
You're not reading my responses carefully. I said happy adults that report having happy childhoods. Since this is all subjective any, yes we have to believe them. That's how subjective research works. You sound very, very young like you need a lot more life experience and the black and white thinking isn't helping either. Whether you like it or not, there are happy people out there that you can't bring down to your level.
How does that disprove anything that I said. People generally have children for selfish reasons, whether you like it or not. Whether somebody claims to have a happy childhood or not doesn't disprove anything, especially with child abuse being so normalized. Getting pissy over the fact that people are selfish and that children are dehumaized isn't going to magically change the fact that that is the reality we live in.
 
Tesha

Tesha

Life too shall pass
May 31, 2020
442
@MatrixPrisoner I've been on the site longer than the Op, so it's obviously doing something for me as well. I've read enough posts to understand her view and how her wording has changed over the past years. I can see her pain. Mine is probably very similar, but for different reasons.

However the needs and views of anti-natalists don't outweigh mine as a parent. We're as equally important.
 
T

thenamingofcats

annihilation anxiety
Apr 19, 2024
276
How does that disprove anything that I said. People generally have children for selfish reasons, whether you like it or not. Whether somebody claims to have a happy childhood or not doesn't disprove anything, especially with child abuse being so normalized. Getting pissy over the fact that people are selfish and that children are dehumaized isn't going to magically change the fact that that is the reality we live in.
I never claimed that no one had children for selfish reasons.
It's almost like you think I'm arguing that the world is some cheery place full of loving, amazing parents where no one is selfish and nothing bad ever happens.
 
EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
1,068
I never claimed that no one had children for selfish reasons.
It's almost like you think I'm arguing that the world is some cheery place full of loving, amazing parents where no one is selfish and nothing bad ever happens.
You cannot decide to have children for purely selfless reasons. Deciding to have kids is something that can only stem from selfishness. Most parents protect their children the same way one protects their property because they are just things to them. You continually get upset over the fact that I keep on pointing out the fact that most parents are selfish and you keep on talking about "happy adults with happy childhoods" as though that disproves my point. You seem to not want to accept the fact that even "amazing parents" usually only have children for selfish reasons and still dehumanize them.
 
T

thenamingofcats

annihilation anxiety
Apr 19, 2024
276
You cannot decide to have children for purely selfless reasons. Deciding to have kids is something that can only stem from selfishness. Most parents protect their children the same way one protects their property because they are just things to them. You continually get upset over the fact that I keep on pointing out the fact that most parents are selfish and you keep on talking about "happy adults with happy childhoods" as though that disproves my point. You seem to not want to accept the fact that even "amazing parents" usually only have children for selfish reasons and still dehumanize them.
Hey, I'm not falling for the emotional bait, telling me things like "you keep getting upset." Do this with someone else, or better yet, not at all. I also don't appreciate your attempt to bait me on another thread. I've said what I have to say. You're clearly not willing to consider my points.
 
MatrixPrisoner

MatrixPrisoner

Enlightened
Jul 8, 2023
1,121
@MatrixPrisoner I've been on the site longer than the Op, so it's obviously doing something for me as well. I've read enough posts to understand her view and how her wording has changed over the past years. I can see her pain. Mine is probably very similar, but for different reasons.

However the needs and views of anti-natalists don't outweigh mine as a parent. We're as equally important.
Of course you are. Everyone here is equally important. And the only way to sustain an enviroment where everyone's views are equally-important, we all just have to keep scrolling when we encounter anything we don't agree with.
 
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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
1,068
Hey, I'm not falling for the emotional bait, telling me things like "you keep getting upset." Do this with someone else, or better yet, not at all. I also don't appreciate your attempt to bait me on another thread. I've said what I have to say. You're clearly not willing to consider my points.
What emotional bait? You are getting upset, lol. You aren't getting baited and your points have just been you saying the same shit over and over again and me having to repeat the same shit over and over again. But sure, keep telling yourself that you are being baited, whatever helps you sleep at night.
 
T

thenamingofcats

annihilation anxiety
Apr 19, 2024
276
What emotional bait? You are getting upset, lol. You aren't getting baited and your points have just been you saying the same shit over and over again and me having to repeat the same shit over and over again. But sure, keep telling yourself that you are being baited, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Again with thinking you know better about how people feel than they do.
 
EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
1,068
Again with thinking you know better about how people feel than they do.
You are literally getting pissed right now, otherwise you wouldn't keep on responding in such pissed off manner, lol. If I bother you so much because I'm "baiting you" or whatever (kinda hypocritical to complain about thinking someone knows better than you when you are here accusing me of baiting you) then just ignore me or something.
 
karmaisabitch

karmaisabitch

Experienced
Mar 25, 2024
276
I wish I was never born, bringing kids to this life is not fair. My son died he was only 16. His friends did this to him and none got punished by the system so yes I agree I brought my son to suffer by toxic people he was killed and made it look like suicide! What trashy world we live in!!
 
Tesha

Tesha

Life too shall pass
May 31, 2020
442
Of course you are. Everyone here is equally important. And the only way to sustain an enviroment where everyone's views are equally-important, we all just have to keep scrolling when we encounter anything we don't agree with.
I agree, I could. However when I regard it as something akin to repetitive racism, homophobia or overtly misogynistic, then I'm not going to pretend I silently accept what's being said.

I'm going to point out that I disagree and that I'm offended or upset or whatever other emotions I have. In my opinion, attacking people and calling them 'names', because they are parents is not ok.

By all means voice that you don't think I should've had children. But do not call me evil, abhorrent, a criminal or similar for doing so. A line gets crossed when that happens. The Op is unwilling or unable to see that, but that doesn't mean it should be silently accepted or not pointed out. It should be addressed by the Admin, like any other attack.

@RainAndSadness I'd appreciate your thoughts.
 
L

Lucid7972

Member
Aug 28, 2023
10
@FuneralCry Let me help you understand how it feels… by changing a few words in a selection of sentences in your post. And no, I don't agree that just because being a parent is a choice, it makes it ok to be attacked whereas not having a choice about being neurodivergent protects you.

This is the suicide discussion forum - your post isn't a suicide discussion. Feel free to get it moved to Offtopic.

Note - I don't actually agree with the following, I'm just making a point.

I really do find it disturbing how people with neurodivergence actually choose to post here.

Gay people make me want to not exist even more as it's disturbing the lack of compassion they have for others.

How could anyone be so selfish to impose the hopeless abomination that are Asians, it's really criminal to do such a thing.
Please explain why you "don't agree that just because being a parent is a choice, it makes it ok to be attacked whereas not having a choice about being neurodivergent protects you."
 
INTJme

INTJme

Epeolatrist
Mar 22, 2024
336
Suffering is inevitable; degrees may vary.
No parent brings a child into the world thinking, "Oh, I'm gonna make my child suffer so much! Heheheh."

Let's not forget how painful the entire birthing process is for mothers and how much they sacrifice to bring a child to life, even if for selfish reasons. But those selfish reasons aren't at the child's cost. Parents want their children to be happy and thrive in the world. It actually hurts parents when they see their child suffer.

It's one thing to vent and express desire to not want to have children of your own and another to force your views on everyone or claim your views to be the objective truth. If that's what you're doing, how are you even better than those bigoted missionaries whose only goal in life is to proselytise others into their own propaganda? Or pro-life people? Or any radicalist for that matter?

If you have an opinion, best keep it to yourself. Most of us here are suffering too much with our illnesses and ideations to care about political statements. We don't mind listening to vents however.
 
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Dot

Dot

Globl mod - Info abt typng styl on prfle.
Sep 26, 2021
2,430
"What is projection?

Unconscious discomfort can lead people to attribute unacceptable feelings or impulses to someone else to avoid confronting them. Projection allows the difficult trait to be addressed without the individual fully recognizing it in themselves."

If u r angry @ ur parnts fr makng u xist thn fne

If u r angry @ ur parnts fr neg8tve xpernces & hve empthy fr othr ppl in th/ sme stuatn thn fne

= cn b frustr8tng 2 C descriptns of hw 'suicdl ppl r treatd s/ bdly' whle @ th/ sme tme chastisng anothr grp of ppl wh/ xist withn th/ suicdl cmmunty

Thre r parnts hre & thy d/ nt dserve t/ b gult-trippd fr xistng
 
DEATH IS FREEDOM

DEATH IS FREEDOM

Death is the solution to unsolvable problems.
Sep 13, 2023
527
The best I have done in my life is to not procreate. Then at least someone doesn´t have to write here. Then at least someone doesn´t have to experiencing the hell of life. However, no one is going to stop reproducing because you write here. A political decision is needed for this.
 
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MatrixPrisoner

MatrixPrisoner

Enlightened
Jul 8, 2023
1,121
I agree, I could. However when I regard it as something akin to repetitive racism, homophobia or overtly misogynistic, then I'm not going to pretend I silently accept what's being said.

I'm going to point out that I disagree and that I'm offended or upset or whatever other emotions I have. In my opinion, attacking people and calling them 'names', because they are parents is not ok.

By all means voice that you don't think I should've had children. But do not call me evil, abhorrent, a criminal or similar for doing so. A line gets crossed when that happens. The Op is unwilling or unable to see that, but that doesn't mean it should be silently accepted or not pointed out. It should be addressed by the Admin, like any other attack.

@RainAndSadness I'd appreciate your thoughts.
There is a big difference between "pointing out that you disagree" and nastily reciprocating the same kind of energy by calling her an immature child using profanity.

On just about any other type of forum, I agree with you 100%. This type of language should be moderated. Even possibly here to a certain extent. But the people that come here are at the literal lowest point of their lives. Many are not, nor have the ability to, think straight. Everyone here needs to understand that.

If you feel neurodivergent people are causing you suffering on a daily basis, you should be able to say it. If gay people are responsible for you wanting to CTB, you should be able to vent about it. If Asians violate you regularly, you should be able to complain about it. (Yes I understand, you were merely using these as examples and don't actually feel this way.)

Yes, OP could probably tone it down a litte. But it's a true reflection of her suffering. If we disagree, we can either go the other way or kindly communicate why were offended and leave it up to the poster to decide whether he/she/they wants to change. If it's even possible to.
 
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Ashu

Ashu

novelist, sanskritist, Canadian living in India
Nov 13, 2021
622
Again, this issue seems very simple for people who can't or don't want to have sex, and who lack sympathetic imagination. No dialogue is possible.
 
B

betternever2havbeen

Elementalist
Jun 19, 2022
822
I agree, I could. However when I regard it as something akin to repetitive racism, homophobia or overtly misogynistic, then I'm not going to pretend I silently accept what's being said.

I'm going to point out that I disagree and that I'm offended or upset or whatever other emotions I have. In my opinion, attacking people and calling them 'names', because they are parents is not ok.

By all means voice that you don't think I should've had children. But do not call me evil, abhorrent, a criminal or similar for doing so. A line gets crossed when that happens. The Op is unwilling or unable to see that, but that doesn't mean it should be silently accepted or not pointed out. It should be addressed by the Admin, like any other attack.

@RainAndSadness I'd appreciate your thoughts.
She didn't attack parents as a whole. You can be a step-parent or adoptive parent without having inflicted life on someone, she's talking about people who procreate. Granted that's most people because god forbid that people would adopt instead of having to create new life all the time. I agree she shouldn't be using those kind of words but that's basically how she talks about everything so doubt she'll change now...
 
RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,083
Mods, can we please have a review of this constant attack on parents.

I'll report this post myself, as I'm utterly fucked off that those of us that are parents and suicidal aren't given the same level of editorial protection on this site as, let's say, people with neurodiversity, or trans, or whatever else you can think of.

I take attacks on parents very seriously and I have sanctioned people in the past who did. But attacking the act of procreation isn't the same as attacking parents, therefore the expression of anti-natalist beliefs is allowed. Thanks.
 
thewalkingdread

thewalkingdread

Life is a pointless, undeserved, unnecessary pain.
Oct 30, 2023
413
My son died he was only 16. His friends did this to him and none got punished by the system so yes I agree I brought my son to suffer by toxic people he was killed and made it look like suicide! What trashy world we live in!!
This is exactly why anti-natalism is such a pervasive, recurrent, subject around here, in this forum...

Bringing life to this world is always a tragic event for the child AND also the parents. Everyone is bound to suffer gratuitously and tremendously.



I'm so sorry for your tragic loss @karmaisabitch ... I also wish I was never born. Life is a terrible tragedy which no medicine can cure or alleviate!


attacking the act of procreation isn't the same as attacking parents
Exactly.

Also, people have to consider that most anti-natalists here are probably venting about the lack of consideration and reflection of their own parents.

It's legitimate If one feels severely harmed by being born and wants to express it...
 
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karmaisabitch

karmaisabitch

Experienced
Mar 25, 2024
276
This is exactly why anti-natalism is such a pervasive, recurrent, subject around here, in this forum...

Bringing life to this world is always a tragic event for the child AND also the parents. Everyone is bound to suffer gratuitously and tremendously.



I'm so sorry for your tragic loss @karmaisabitch ... I also wish I was never born. Life is a terrible tragedy which no medicine can cure or alleviate!



Exactly.

Also, people have to consider that most anti-natalists here are probably venting about the lack of consideration and reflection of their own parents.

It's legitimate If one feels severely harmed by being born and wants to express it...
Thank you so much! Now I know how bringing those innocent babies to earth is wrong
 
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Tesha

Tesha

Life too shall pass
May 31, 2020
442
I take attacks on parents very seriously and I have sanctioned people in the past who did. But attacking the act of procreation isn't the same as attacking parents, therefore the expression of anti-natalist beliefs is allowed. Thanks.
Thank you for taking the time to respond, @RainAndSadness

I think there is still scope for more clarity especially as I know general attacks wouldn't be allowed for other classes of people.

However, based on your input as the Admin, I'll reserve any more comments. If I see / feel your guidance above is being breached I will report posts, as I would with anything else similar.

Thanks again.
 
T

thenamingofcats

annihilation anxiety
Apr 19, 2024
276
I take attacks on parents very seriously and I have sanctioned people in the past who did. But attacking the act of procreation isn't the same as attacking parents, therefore the expression of anti-natalist beliefs is allowed. Thanks.
Am I missing something? The original post does describe parents as being selfish, criminal, and choosing to make others suffer. That seems very different from saying something like "people shouldn't have kids due to suffering it may cause."
 
INTJme

INTJme

Epeolatrist
Mar 22, 2024
336
Am I missing something? The original post does describe parents as being selfish, criminal, and choosing to make others suffer. That seems very different from saying something like "people shouldn't have kids due to suffering it may cause."
This forum is not democratic even if it purports to be. Biases run galore and I've burnt my fingers too, trying to make people see reason. Better to stay silent instead of debating and only do what you originally came here for.
 
T

thenamingofcats

annihilation anxiety
Apr 19, 2024
276
This forum is not democratic even if it purports to be. Biases run galore and I've burnt my fingers too, trying to make people see reason. Better to stay silent instead of debating and continue doing what you originally came here for.
I appreciate the solid advice. I always get in trouble for doing just that. I'm an INTP by the way.
 
SilentSadness

SilentSadness

Suffering.
Feb 28, 2023
925
= cn b frustr8tng 2 C descriptns of hw 'suicdl ppl r treatd s/ bdly' whle @ th/ sme tme chastisng anothr grp of ppl wh/ xist withn th/ suicdl cmmunty

Thre r parnts hre & thy d/ dserve t/ b gult-trippd fr xistng
Seriously, you can't say "parents don't deserve to be guilt tripped for existing" as if having children is never intentional.
The original post is tagged as a venting post and is directed at the kind of people who caused the original poster's existence, or maybe towards the void. I think it's understandable that the original poster is so frustrated at pronatalists when they respond like they have in this thread.
 
S

sadman710

Student
Mar 22, 2024
167
I have mixed feelings. I think the grand majority of the time, especially in recent years, humans have done no favors procreating. Everything from having children in known miserable places, to just the general life of the modern world, it makes me feel like people have children as some sort of show off trophy.

That isn't to say i don't see potential of beauty and an enjoyable existence in this world. I think we are meant to value this place while we are here. However, the modern world has created such pointlessness and misery, it is unsatisfying to the grand majority and our instincts. Many go through life and just trudge through it, though they suffer to one extent or another. A select few live a pampered existence, and get the most out of this place. Others just suffer period, and some still make it, some dont. Couple that with how it shapes most of the masses, it more often than not results in a life of torment and misery, and the only ones seem to care after a person passes and pretend they would have done so much, but did very little or nothing while they were present - and very likely added to their misery.

I think it's more of a mindset with this species. We lie to ourselves about how we conduct ourselves and pretend everything is all good, and don't focus on values that really caters to our well-being, resulting in misery.

If our focus is lost on the satisfaction and well-being of humans and the planet itself, what is really the point of what we're doing? We are creatures of habit, and don't want to quit, even when we know something we're doing is bad. It relies less on not making us not have stress on our survival instincts, but more of how much they can tolerate.
 
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