Discussion I don't understand people saying that suffering is a challenge / trial / growing experience that betters us...

[Marine]

Maybe if we're talking about mild "suffering" or minor setbacks, but definitely not the case for trauma hell / extreme inhumane torture. Like if the point was awareness many of us would be the happiest people on earth. What else should we be aware of / nurturing when no amount of skill, strength / resilience, compassion or anything seems to help and death seems preferable any moment. If I'm missing something I would like to know.

Anyone has an opinion on this ?

 

[symphony]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is a nice thing to believe in until you face something that doesn't kill you but leaves you broken and limping.

 

[Someone123]

Maybe if we're talking about mild "suffering" or minor setbacks, but definitely not the case for trauma hell / extreme inhumane torture. Like if the point was awareness many of us would be the happiest people on earth. What else should we be aware of / nurturing when no amount of skill, strength / resilience, compassion or anything seems to help and death seems preferable any moment. If I'm missing something I would like to know.

Anyone has an opinion on this ?

I think that this is partly true, but I think intense suffering can be something that is worth it for what you learn from it if it doesn't go on too long and you are able to recover and have a fulfilling life for many years- this is seemingly not the path for most people here.

 

[Marine]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is a nice thing to believe in until you face something that doesn't kill you but leaves you broken and limping.

Plus didn't Nietzsche go insane after saying that ?

More like "what doesn't break you may make you stronger, potentially". Many of us can attest that long term torture and failed suicide attempts don't make anybody stronger. We do gain more insight but not enough to save ourselved apparently... Unless we're missing something, or help lol. If we got help and survived I guess we might be stronger.

I think that this is partly true, but I think intense suffering can be something that is worth it for what you learn from it if it doesn't go on too long and you are able to recover and have a fulfilling life for many years- this is seemingly not the path for most people here.

If you find help / a way out in time yes but too often people just die or worse waste away... I really wish there was something I didn't see that could get me out of hell though you know ?

 

[MoonlitNight]

Maybe if we're talking about mild "suffering" or minor setbacks, but definitely not the case for trauma hell / extreme inhumane torture. Like if the point was awareness many of us would be the happiest people on earth. What else should we be aware of / nurturing when no amount of skill, strength / resilience, compassion or anything seems to help and death seems preferable any moment. If I'm missing something I would like to know.

Anyone has an opinion on this ?

Life experiences cannot be generalized in a sentence. same can be said here. Some people go through kidnappings and such and when they're rescued, they dedicate their life to saving those people. and some of them aren't so lucky and come out with physical and mental disabilities. Another well known example is child abuse, at this stage the child needs protection not to be taught how to 'be strong' through traumatic experience.

Basically, you should take it with a grain of salt. It cannot apply to everything. No life experience can be fixed to one sentence. Have a great day

Plus didn't Nietzsche go insane after saying that ?

More like "what doesn't break you may make you stronger, potentially". Many of us can attest that long term torture and failed suicide attempts don't make anybody stronger. We do gain more insight but not enough to save ourselved apparently... Unless we're missing something, or help lol. If we got help and survived I guess we might be stronger.

If you find help / a way out in time yes but too often people just die or worse waste away... I really wish there was something I didn't see that could get me out of hell though you know ?

actually, there are failed attempts that changed people for the better by recieving the correct support. Most of these are minors though, since they still have a lot of turns and doors open in life.

 

[NumbItAll]

I have no idea why people love suffering so much or think it is good. I have never been convinced that suffering is a good thing. Maybe if you recover from it and it somehow leads to something better. But when it is chronic suffering that never heals, that is just a burden.

 

[MemberOfTheMatrix]

Suffering forces you to get up and try to fix what's wrong in your life, if you succeed in doing that and try your best to prevent it in the future you win, life is not fair and you have to adapt to how it works, If you don't succeed in that battle and let the negative thoughts take over you, you "CTB" or just live your life in a wreck.

 

[whatevs]

It's a coping mechanism. This is very basic psychology. And it's also a half truth, as in the correct amount of suffering will definitely create a more nuanced and complete human being. People just overlook how common it is that the excess suffering breaks the vessel and no metamorphosis is achieved, but instead, as it has been said, some pitiful, half-dead limping survivor or just death.

 

[voidweller]

worst thing re: trauma is that shit stays with you your entire life. you dont "grow out of" trauma, you just live forever traumatized until you die. sure people often do deal with their trauma in ways that make them a 'better' person or use their experiences to make art or whatever, but that doesnt justify the trauma. no amount of 'growth' or whatever justifies any amount of harm. its toxic and insulting that our culture romanticizes suffering and tries to twist it into some 'positive' optimistic sentiment.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Copium

 

[kindalone]

worst thing re: trauma is that shit stays with you your entire life. you dont "grow out of" trauma, you just live forever traumatized until you die. sure people often do deal with their trauma in ways that make them a 'better' person or use their experiences to make art or whatever, but that doesnt justify the trauma. no amount of 'growth' or whatever justifies any amount of harm. its toxic and insulting that our culture romanticizes suffering and tries to twist it into some 'positive' optimistic sentiment.

Trauma isn't something that makes you more creative or anything. It's just a wound. You don't see physical ailments get such romanticization. It's honestly infuriating.

 

[Marine]

Life experiences cannot be generalized in a sentence. same can be said here. Some people go through kidnappings and such and when they're rescued, they dedicate their life to saving those people. and some of them aren't so lucky and come out with physical and mental disabilities. Another well known example is child abuse, at this stage the child needs protection not to be taught how to 'be strong' through traumatic experience.

Basically, you should take it with a grain of salt. It cannot apply to everything. No life experience can be fixed to one sentence. Have a great day

actually, there are failed attempts that changed people for the better by recieving the correct support. Most of these are minors though, since they still have a lot of turns and doors open in life.

I think your confusion is linked to that one crucial thing your said :

by recieving the correct support

That is the difference. Nothing else.

Also we were talking about dooming hell and inhulane torture, I don't think this applies to that, and that my sentence was broad enough too.

I have no idea why people love suffering so much or think it is good. I have never been convinced that suffering is a good thing. Maybe if you recover from it and it somehow leads to something better. But when it is chronic suffering that never heals, that is just a burden.

People who don't experience it you mean ? Because no one going through inhumane torturous hell loves it.

Suffering forces you to get up and try to fix what's wrong in your life, if you succeed in doing that and try your best to prevent it in the future you win, life is not fair and you have to adapt to how it works, If you don't succeed in that battle and let the negative thoughts take over you, you "CTB" or just live your life in a wreck.

In a powerless situation it doesn't do that. It disables you further. Also it's up to whether you find the help you need to change things or not, period. Otherwise the problem wouldn't exist. It's not about thoughts alone. Especially when that shit is subconscious and your thoughts (or actions) don't do shit, you actually REQUIRE external help.

worst thing re: trauma is that shit stays with you your entire life. you dont "grow out of" trauma, you just live forever traumatized until you die. sure people often do deal with their trauma in ways that make them a 'better' person or use their experiences to make art or whatever, but that doesnt justify the trauma. no amount of 'growth' or whatever justifies any amount of harm. its toxic and insulting that our culture romanticizes suffering and tries to twist it into some 'positive' optimistic sentiment.

Love can transform and heal it though thankfully (not undo it but you get it) if your trauma isn't about lovelessness and keep you from it that is... Or I'm still missing fucking whatever to unlock access to fucking life...

Note : abrasive because retraumatized to the point I can neither endure nor survive it anymore today... Sorry about that, also sensitive topic...

Trauma isn't something that makes you more creative or anything. It's just a wound. You don't see physical ailments get such romanticization. It's honestly infuriating.

Exactly that. Does an unhealed broken leg make your bone stronger ? Even healed it doesn't seem to. Maybe in special cases but definitely not most of the time and never unhealed. I think we know the opposite is true. Perfect analogy.

 

[Remeer]

hello, some mention that suffering is relative while physical pain is not and that this would explain various reactions to a "similar" event, but you have proposed in your question an extremely complicated scenario (a traumatic hell / extreme inhuman torture ) that I consider that I have not transited so I cannot answer you about any experience of this type and even if I did, it would be different from yours and it would not work either because we are different
Regarding your question, it may be because they went through a period of suffering and over time they realized that thanks to that they now live in a better way, the experience has added up and they have finished the process they were going through, but also the opposite has to be considered, what you mention here, how traumatizing and inhuman and I don't know, but I have heard cases and the solution was love (quite a cliché), love in the sense of unconditional support from those close to them thanks to them they were able to finish or advance in that process
basically my answer is: I have no idea, that they have not experienced something this complicated and even living it would be different because nobody knows how someone would react to that
If you look at it from another point of view, the system uses these types of sentences, because this is how the problem is taken to the person who suffers instead of improving the system in which we live, shit, and you can see this in the systems of self-improvement, those who write their systems and give conferences earn money with it, the pharmaceutical system sells you pills to "help" you, therapists charge you for their services to "help" you and the list goes on, for example the other day I was checking Youtube and a video of that style appeared, I saw it and I was surprised, the person was trying to increase the weight that people carry, that you should do more, that you are doing this wrong, that if you are X old, there is no turning back and another video where the connotation of the words changed, instead of saying responsible they said being aware, and instead of saying exploit it they said explore it, creating confusion and that is the issue, because if you see it they are motivators that companies hire
maybe the real answer for some of those people is money
greetings

 

[TheRedHare]

I've thought about this a lot and TLDR; it depends.

Both sides of this discussion (people who say suffering is good for you and people who say it's always bad) IMHO are either talking naively or running past some logical fallacies by being very selective (purposely or not).

Something like suffering is such a personal experience that it makes no sense to think that other people's rules and reactions can apply to you. I think this is mostly where people get bogged down... Listening to someone who has been through suffering and become an incredibly strong human try and tell you how they did so can be an achingly disheartening experience for someone going through suffering or trauma. Why? Because their systems for dealing with suffering are entirely different (not to mention the nature of their suffering also differs vastly). The same can be said the other way, maybe you're someone who has pulled through tough times and you see someone wasting away and wonder "Why can't they apply these lessons to better themselves?", which is also a frustrating experience if it's someone you truly care about.

For me, the "secret" (not really a secret) is how you cognize these experiences and then use that internalization. Just like with anything, people's brains work distinctly on this task. What is an automatic experience for someone else, for you, might be an active process that requires your attention. Internalizing what you learned from a scenario or how you're going to (or not going to) change yourself going forward. These are just some of the mental activities you might engage in.

Just to finish off my point I want to talk about religious people (particularly Christians). I'm not religious at all but I like to mentally engage with all different life philosophies (which is why I find SS so interesting). But devout Christians often go down the thought loop that surviving through suffering is a blessing as it allows you to help other people who are going through the same suffering, easing their burden. While prescriptive (rather than created internally), this can be considered a method of cognizing and mentally engaging with your suffering for the better. I personally take little value in prescribed world views, but that's just my nature. You might be like me and need to find these things out for yourself by mentally engaging with these concepts.

 

[bijou]

everything in life is suffering, in trauma, and in the mundane. all you can ever do is attempt to make peace with its inevitability. when you desire the answers to everything, you just perpetuate your suffering. when you desire death, you're still suffering. when you desire life, you're still suffering. the cycle of suffering is constant and endless, all anyone can ever do is try their best.

 

[ge0rge]

it is all pure copium. suffering is gratuitous and does not teach anything