How much SN needed for a small person?

[Half_lost]

I'm 5'0 and approx 7.5 - 8 stone, what would be the recommended dosage? I don't have scales so will have to use a teaspoon or tablespoon as measurement.

 

[throwaway_2620]

For practical information on SN, I'd highly recommend the SN resource page.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/sn-resource-page.32633/

 

[Half_lost]

For practical information on SN, I'd highly recommend the SN resource page.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/sn-resource-page.32633/

Hi, thanks for your reply. I can't see anything on that page about dosages, Stan's guide only accounts for a regular sized and large sized person hence why I asked the question.

 

[throwaway_2620]

For a more specific answer, I'd personally recommend 15g (maybe an extra gram or 2 for good measure) for someone your bodyweight.

 

[autumnal]

Someone on the forum came up with this table, although bear in mind it is purely a mathematical model rather than a pharmacological one. Not everything has a predictable or linear relationship in real life.

The PPH (December 2019) lists a normal amount of 25g and a higher amount of 35g for people over 100kgs. It's not clear from them whether it is wise to go below 25g or not, and they make no suggestions for people below normal weight.

A higher dosage than necessary increases the likelihood of vomiting, which can be both unpleasant in itself, and more importantly can result in not enough SN being absorbed to be fatal (or to be quickly or peacefully fatal).

A lower dosage than necessary increases the likelihood of a failed attempt.

I believe there are forum posts with suggestions about dosages below 25g for smaller people. There are certainly ones about larger dosages for larger people. There are also compilations of successful and failed SN attempts, which I believe list the body weight and dosage when it is known. Note that any suggestions for dosages outside the PPH ranges are anecdotal rather than from more established or reputable sources.

Ultimately you need to weigh up the above factors and decide for yourself, based on both the reputable and anecdotal information. My own inclination would be to err on the side of (possible) overkill and take 25g. You can prepare multiple glasses of 25g and so if you vomit you can take another dose. Whereas if you take a dose that is too low from the start, you might find yourself too incapacitated to take another required dose. But this is purely speculation and I am not a medical professional.

 

[Half_lost]

Someone on the forum came up with this table, although bear in mind it is purely a mathematical model rather than a pharmacological one. Not everything has a predictable or linear relationship in real life.

The PPH (December 2019) lists a normal amount of 25g and a higher amount of 35g for people over 100kgs. It's not clear from them whether it is wise to go below 25g or not, and they make no suggestions for people below normal weight.

A higher dosage than necessary increases the likelihood of vomiting, which can be both unpleasant in itself, and more importantly can result in not enough SN being absorbed to be fatal (or to be quickly or peacefully fatal).

A lower dosage than necessary increases the likelihood of a failed attempt.

I believe there are forum posts with suggestions about dosages below 25g for smaller people. There are certainly ones about larger dosages for larger people. There are also compilations of successful and failed SN attempts, which I believe list the body weight and dosage when it is known. Note that any suggestions for dosages outside the PPH ranges are anecdotal rather than from more established or reputable sources.

Ultimately you need to weigh up the above factors and decide for yourself, based on both the reputable and anecdotal information. My own inclination would be to err on the side of (possible) overkill and take 25g. You can prepare multiple glasses of 25g and so if you vomit you can take another dose. Whereas if you take a dose that is too low from the start, you might find yourself too incapacitated to take another required dose. But this is purely speculation and I am not a medical professional.

Thank you for this very detailed response, this is very helpful!

 

[aukguy]

20g is around 1 tablespoon, or 4 teaspoons. You could give yourself a little extra. Depending on your bag size, use that as a a general guide: ie if you have a 50mg bag then the tablespoon should be just under half of it.

 

[s1mplem3]

What if you take more than recommended? Like 30-50g?

 

[noko]

What if you take more than recommended? Like 30-50g?

Apparently you raise the risk of vomiting. What I'm curious about is water, why must it be 50ml and not more, especially since it tastes bad and might cause a gag reflex.

 

[LMLN]

Apparently you raise the risk of vomiting. What I'm curious about is water, why must it be 50ml and not more, especially since it tastes bad and might cause a gag reflex.

I dont think it's a must. It's just you want the minimum amount that dissolves it all. You dont want to have to drink more fluid than necessary. Its more to get down...and then more in your stomach that can come up.

 

[Quarky00]

The PPH (December 2019) lists a normal amount of 25g and a higher amount of 35g for people over 100kgs. It's not clear from them whether it is wise to go below 25g or not, and they make no suggestions for people below normal weight.

A higher dosage than necessary increases the likelihood of vomiting, which can be both unpleasant in itself, and more importantly can result in not enough SN being absorbed to be fatal (or to be quickly or peacefully fatal).

A lower dosage than necessary increases the likelihood of a failed attempt.

It's 35g? I though it was 30g for > 100kg .. (correct me if I'm wrong:)

@autumnal detailed things perfectly . However that is what we believe to be the case -- we don't actually know . PPH changed 15g --> 20g --> 25g . So now almost doubling the dosage is okay? Therefore any advice to take lower dosage should not be taken at face value . I believe very few members ctbed with 15g , but Stan was wary of that , and recommended 3x20g .

I'm not sure that adding 5g to the recommended dosage will induce vomiting that would harm fatality . It's really hard to vomit all of that small amount , after fasting and meto . There is a consensus that too much SN may be very unpleasant (vomiting burning etc) and not much more effective . We don't know if 30g instead of 25g would harm ctb .

This is a theoretical discussion. For practical reasons people should stay within the consensus of 20g-25g (for <100kg) .

( I'm not addressing @autumnal personally , great info provided :)

 

[autumnal]

It's 35g? I though it was 30g for > 100kg .. (correct me if I'm wrong:)
[...]

Yeah it's 35g for 100kg+ in the December 2019 PPH.

 

[jgm63]

Thank you for this very detailed response, this is very helpful!

The table link given was the old version.

The new version is here :

Spoiler: sn-water-amount-lookup-table

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/sn-water-amount-lookup-table-v2.32241/

The table is based on my view that these sudden "jumps" don't make much sense, and that it should be more of a smooth graduation, based upon weight.

So for your weight the table suggests about 17.5g, which is roughly 3 teaspoons or 1 tablespoon (moderately rounded teaspoons / tablespoon, not heaped).

So, 1 moderately rounded, but non-heaped tablespoon, should be fine.

 

[Quarky00]

~

it should be more of a smooth graduation, based upon weight.

For God sake , why?
Why should it be gradual based on weight?
It complicates things and that's not always how the body works (LD50 mg/kg is pure statistics , not practice) . Many medications and substances are given in "jumps" . Many aren't (IV mg/kg).

the table suggests about 17.5g, which is roughly 3 teaspoons or 1 tablespoon (moderately rounded teaspoons / tablespoon, not heaped). So, 1 moderately rounded, but non-heaped tablespoon, should be fine.

That's too much!

PPH changed SN dosage 20g->25g but for overweight 25g->35g ... This suggests a non-linear relation to weight. Regardless, it's not accurate , and with such high doses a few grams won't make a difference . But it could with lower dosages . So a "normal weight" person (~75kg) would take that PPH recommended 25g dose , and now a smaller person (~60kg) would take 19g? That does not make sense and it's confusing . The constant dose increase by PPH , the lack of testimony for several servings intake (Stan) , and lack of evidence that slightly higher dose would make one "vomit everything" (highly unlikely) all point in the other direction .

I don't understand why the need for the data to make sense overcomes simplicity and practicality . :|

 

[jgm63]

~


For God sake , why?
Why should it be gradual based on weight?
It complicates things and that's not always how the body works (LD50 mg/kg is pure statistics , not practice) . Many medications and substances are given in "jumps" . Many aren't (IV mg/kg).


That's too much!

PPH changed SN dosage 20g->25g but for overweight 25g->35g ... This suggests a non-linear relation to weight. Regardless, it's not accurate , and with such high doses a few grams won't make a difference . But it could with lower dosages . So a "normal weight" person (~75kg) would take that PPH recommended 25g dose , and now a smaller person (~60kg) would take 19g? That does not make sense and it's confusing . The constant dose increase by PPH , the lack of testimony for several servings intake (Stan) , and lack of evidence that slightly higher dose would make one "vomit everything" (highly unlikely) all point in the other direction .

I don't understand why the need for the data to make sense overcomes simplicity and practicality . :|

Well, I guess dosages in general don't tend to be an exact science.
Personally I feel my table is a reasonable approach, unless we figure out a better approach.
To me, someone who is 90kg probably needs more than someone who is 60kg.
Of course, I'm not stopping you from creating your own "SN recommended amount" thread, and posting links to that.
People can view both and decide which one they wish to follow.

I don't like the PPH "sudden jump" approach.
It suggests that someone who is 99kg should take 25g, and someone who is 101kg should take 35g.
That doesn't make sense to me.
It also suggests that someone who is 50kg should take 25g.

Perhaps the PPH went for that approach because the book doesn't have room for separate "tables" for different substances, and they want to avoid giving formulas, so they just went with the simplest approach possible.

Generally speaking, when we see lethal doses quoted, we tend to see them quoted as amount per bodyweight, which tends to support my table based approach.

example : https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...odium-nitrite-2157-7145.1000262.php?aid=36065 "the median lethal dose of oral sodium nitrite is 71 mg/kg of body weight in humans"

I have also "biased" my table towards the 25g amount by using a 0.6 factor to reduce the variation caused by bodyweight, so I am already using a "middle ground" approach. My table is also based on a very reliable dose of 250mg per kg, and *even higher* for lower body weights, due to the 0.6 biasing factor.

Until something convincing / logical is presented that changes my mind, I personally think my table is a reasonable approach for now....

 

[gnomeboy17]

I'm going to have 15grams, then another 15g prepared, so worse case scenario and I wake up I can take extra. I'm also pretty small, 5'5 and 52kg. I think it's silly to take way more than needed. A gram is enough to kill someone, with rare cases of people living at 6g.

 

[jgm63]

I'm going to have 15grams, then another 15g prepared, so worse case scenario and I wake up I can take extra. I'm also pretty small, 5'5 and 52kg. I think it's silly to take way more than needed. A gram is enough to kill someone, with rare cases of people living at 6g.

15g should be fine for your bodyweight. My table states 17.5g, so you could go with that to be "even more sure", but the table is based on very generous amounts, and 15g at 52kg works out at 288mg/kg, which is still comfortably above the "very reliable" dose of 250mg/kg, so you should be fine...