How gender is constructed and reinforced on SS

[Epsilon0]

I wonder if anyone else here has reflected on the way gender roles are constructed and reinforced in our community.

What would you say is typical male and female behaviour on this forum?

 

[Soul]

I'm often surprised to find out the gender of SanSui denizens, and lots of people seem unsure whether I'm a she-soul or a he-soul. So I don't feel very qualified to respond.

What are your observations, @Epsilon0?

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I have never guessed on a gender, I find everyone just fits in well, been surprised a couple times when I have discovered a gender, but I don't see a pattern, think if you defo know whos who you could prop pick up on some thing, but otherwise, I don't think there is any typical behaviour?

 

[itsamadworld]

I think once someone discovers someone's gender on here, it maybe because it's biological, gender roles assigned by society, and/or both.... the person- to -person interactions ( words and topics discussed) might alter slightly, because of what gender one is dealing with.( him,her, sure or unsure etc.). I noticed it, but especially when I worked in environments where I was only 15-20 percent of opposite gender represented.......But on ss, it's very nuanced and hard to describe...

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I've noticed that communication styles lead to a assumptions which may prove to be false. For instance, when I first started communicating with @Epsilon0, she had a non-gendered avatar. She spoke in a way that was authoritative about the subject, she was clearly intelligent, and spoke with confidence. I assumed she was a male until she revealed her gender a couple of weeks later.

Many people assume I am male, I think in part because, although I chose a neutral avatar color, many subconsciously consider it a male color. My writing style also unintentionally leads people to assume I am male. Irl, I communicate in the same way, and I've noticed that some males are confused when I talk and engage in the same ways they do, such as with confidence, being direct, and standing my ground. This is not a dig on males, there is much I admire about them and have emulated, which fits with my strong personality and has served me well, and I'm feminine, not overtly male, so it sometimes confuses males. Some of it I learned from hanging around with Germans, many of whom are quite direct and leave no room for wondering about their intentions; I like that. I am strong, and I don't hide or minimize it with a more culturally accepted and expected feminine facade. I don't dummy down my speech to better fit in, as Western women are culturally encouraged to do.

@Soulless_Angel, if I may make an observation, I hope it doesn't offend. I assume you are you are female, not because of your avatar, which I have to zoom in on to see. And not because you have angel in your username, because @thrw_a_way1221221 has something about angels below his username, and I originally assumed he was female because of it, so I now no longer make that assumption. I unintentionally assume you are female because your last sentence ended with a question mark. Some males do it as well, but as a writer, I've observed this writing style has become prevalent over the past decade, ending a statement with a question mark in writing, just as many Western females do in verbal speech. Again, I've observed some males do it, and unless there are other things that overtly signal they are male, such as username, I assume it is a female speaking.

In general, I find it assumptions amusing, my own and others'. These kinds of things intrigue me because I was a communications major in undergrad, and at the graduate level, I had a strong interest in discourse theory (power expressed through cultural and other big dialogues),semiotics (how we make meaning using language), and cultural studies. @Epsilon0 first drew my attention in a linguistic-focused thread she posted. I love this stuff.

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I've noticed that communication styles lead to a assumptions which may prove to be false. For instance, when I first started communicating with @Epsilon0,

@Soulless_Angel, if I may make an observation, I hope it doesn't offend. I assume you are you are female, not because of your avatar, which I have to zoom in on to see. And not because you have angel in your username, because @thrw_a_way1221221 has something about angels below his username, and I originally assumed he was female because of it, so I now no longer make that assumption. I unintentionally assume you are female because your last sentence ended with a question mark. Some males do it as well, but as a writer, I've observed this writing style has become prevalent over the past decade, ending a statement with a question mark in writing, just as many Western females do in verbal speech. Again, I've observed some makes do it, and unless there are other things that signal they are male, such as username, I assume it is a female speaking.

ha I am fine with this, I have never hidden that I am a female, but this shows you are new here ;) I have posted in a couple threads, semi selfies, Never revealing my face, (I don't really do that on any social media)
I must admit some of the females on here, well the one's I know of, make me feel dumb as shit, I am not educated well, I don't have the background or the mindset many do, nor do I have the responses that some do, so now when I see those sort of threads, I tend to try and read them as non gender and just view them as someones opinion
With the question mark, it was actually a question, not a sentence ended with a question mark, but I do find that a interesting observation
I mean no offensive by it, Hell I have always communicated with guys better, and hell ill drink most under the table

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

ha I am fine with this, I have never hidden that I am a female, but this shows you are new here ;)

Ah, but that's assumption about what I read, notice, and engage with.

It reinforces for me that I make all kinds of assumptions about folks here based on my own perspective, which is limited like all people's perspectives.

Forums are a collection of conversations, and conversations in forums as well as irl often reveal to me that I make assumptions, and they are often wrong. I've been learning all my life how conversations reveal to me where my assumptions are in error, as well as where my observations are correct even though they are denied (not directed at you, it's related to my interest in covert manipulation due to realizing how often I had been on the receiving end of it).

Anyhow, glad you didn't take offense. I learn a lot from making observations and then talking about them. I appreciate how you engaged.

An aside, in my younger years I used to kick ass in beer guzzling contests. There was only one guy who could beat me, the rest were both irritated and in awe -- story of my life!

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I make assumptions based on behaviour and writing style mostly, but I recognise that those assumptions are constantly proved wrong.
That in itself is an interesting idea concerning identity online. We can adopt a persona, we can display our true persona but be vague or lie about the details, or we can be ourselves.
And others can take whatever they want from their assumptions until told otherwise.
Of course there is a natural bias towards, for example, regarding as female someone with a female username and feminine avatar. That doesn't necessarily make it the truth, but I'd treat that person as female if that's how they want to be perceived.
And although at some level I'd treat all gender perceptions the same, at another I'd treat male and female different.
For example, certain gender related terms of endearment naturally creep into conversation if people become close or support each other through crisis.

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I now have the urge to go find a really masculine profile picture

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I now have the urge to go find a really masculine profile picture

It could be worse, you could be perceived as a sexy potatto.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It could be worse, you could be perceived as a sexy potatto.

Heyyyyy, sexy potatto!

Just like a woman is blamed for dressing sexy, it's your fault for all the times you've posted the twerking potatto gif.

 

[Myforevercharlie]

I don't think there's much difference behaviour between males and females here...

Some who i thought were female turned out to be male and vice versa.

 

[Soulless_Angel]

It could be worse, you could be perceived as a sexy potatto.

I could think of worse things to be perceived as!

 

[Epsilon0]

The mechanism of gender construction is by no means obvious to the untrained eye, but it's alive and kicking, and operating att full speed in our little corner of the world.

I will give two examples to start with.

My first observation is that analytical, emotionally-detached users are automatically assumed to be male. For instance, if a new user's posts are rational, assertive, well-written and project self-confidence, then that user will be addressed with the pronoun he, and not she.


My second observation is that female users are more likely to be subject to abuse in private messages sent by male users.

The abuse consists of condescending, judgemental (or even plain and simple shitty) remarks which bear witness to the ludicrous sense of superiority of the male user who facies himself in possession of truths which must be dispensed at all costs, for the enlightenment of imbecile women.

Unfortunately, females encode certain qualities that legitimize males' abusive behaviours: they are expected to be docile, submissive, in need of guidance, and generally irrational.

The great thing about this forum is that there are many female users who have well-defined boundaries, who refuse to be bullied and are not afraid to cultivate their own interests and well-being.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

The mechanism of gender construction is by no means obvious to the untrained eye, but it's alive and kicking, and operating att full speed in our little corner of the world.

I will give two examples to start with.

My first observation is that analytical, emotionally-detached users are automatically assumed to be male. For instance, if a new user's posts are rational, assertive, well-written and project self-confidence, then that user will be addressed with the pronoun he, and not she.


My second observation is that female users are more likely to be subject to abuse in private messages sent by male users.

The abuse consists of condescending, judgemental (or even plain and simple shitty) remarks which bear witness to the ludicrous sense of superiority of the male user who facies himself in possession of truths which must be dispensed at all costs, for the enlightenment of imbecile women.

Unfortunately, females encode certain qualities that legitimize males' abusive behaviours: they are expected to be docile, submissive, in need of guidance, and generally irrational.

The great thing about this forum is that there are many female users who have well-defined boundaries, who refuse to be bullied and are not afraid to cultivate their own interests and well-being.

I wanted to react with a wow and a heart, I settled on like.

I know how important reacts are to you. And you know how important emoticons are to me.

 

[Epsilon0]

I wanted to react with a wow and a heart, I settled on like.

I know how important reacts are to you. And you know how important emoticons are to me.

Let's blow the gender system to smitherinees and just say nothing.

Or if we must say something, then that something must includ at least three sources.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Heyyyyy, sexy potatto!

Just like a woman is blamed for dressing sexy, it's your fault for all the times you've posted the twerking potatto gif.

I can't help it! Just because I like shaking my potatto butt, doesn't mean I should be objectified. or does it? Maybe I'm asking for it. Ooooooh dangerous ground here for what started out as a flippant reply.

The mechanism of gender construction is by no means obvious to the untrained eye, but it's alive and kicking, and operating att full speed in our little corner of the world.

I will give two examples to start with.

My first observation is that analytical, emotionally-detached users are automatically assumed to be male. For instance, if a new user's posts are rational, assertive, well-written and project self-confidence, then that user will be addressed with the pronoun he, and not she.


My second observation is that female users are more likely to be subject to abuse in private messages sent by male users.

The abuse consists of condescending, judgemental (or even plain and simple shitty) remarks which bear witness to the ludicrous sense of superiority of the male user who facies himself in possession of truths which must be dispensed at all costs, for the enlightenment of imbecile women.

Unfortunately, females encode certain qualities that legitimize males' abusive behaviours: they are expected to be docile, submissive, in need of guidance, and generally irrational.

The great thing about this forum is that there are many female users who have well-defined boundaries, who refuse to be bullied and are not afraid to cultivate their own interests and well-being.

Yeah I'd second all that. Interestingly I found that when I played MMOs with a female avatar years ago, even though I acted as myself, I had a much more positive reaction from other players if I didn't automatically state that I was male. It's a bit different now, everyone just assumes you are male whatever gender you play.

 

[Mr2005]

Men aren't allowed to be sexual beings without being seen as terrible people

 

[Epsilon0]

I can't help it! Just because I like shaking my potatto butt, doesn't mean I should be objectified. or does it? Maybe I'm asking for it. Ooooooh dangerous ground here for what started out as a flippant reply.

Yeah I'd second all that. Interestingly I found that when I played MMOs with a female avatar years ago, even though I acted as myself, I had a much more positive reaction from other players if I didn't automatically state that I was male. It's a bit different now, everyone just assumes you are male whatever gender you play.

We laughed at that silly remark "you sexy potato" but this is precisely how the gender system works.

The category "gender" is both descriptive and normative. It is normative in the sense that it dictates how male and female can, should and are expected to act.

That idiot user called you a sexy potato because in his mind that is acceptable, macho behaviour. Quite frankly, I must admit, he is not to blame. He has been taught that male gender is enacted that way from the day he opened his eyes. If anything, he is a mindless fool.

Men aren't allowed to be sexual beings without being seen as terrible people

Now that is a sweeping generalization which lacks any validity.

I would kindly ask you to elaborate, or at least give an example to explain what you mean, or else I cannot reply to it.

I am itching to reply, but as it stands right now, it would not be fair game.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Men aren't allowed to be sexual beings without being seen as terrible people

It's unfortunate that you're alive in Western culture at this point in what is perhaps a pendulum swing.

Women have been subjugated for most of history and still are in many cultures. While the current climate is difficult for you, and I do empathize, can you imagine how powerless women have been, and how we've been incorrectly viewed through lenses of male dominance and privilege (and often still are)? Increasingly since Western women were allowed to work during WWII, when a significant portion of the male population was conscripted or enlisted, we no longer have to rely on men for our financial survival and housing, and many of us are empowered to stand up to bad behavior without having to lose our homes or our incomes, without being assaulted and/or "put back in our places."

But is your comment about the forum, or about real life? If it's about the forum, sharing observations would contribute to the conversation in the thread.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

It's unfortunate that you're alive in Western culture at this point in what is perhaps a pendulum swing.

Women have been subjugated for most of history and still are in many cultures. While the current climate is difficult for you, and I do empathize, can you imagine how powerless women have been, and how we've been incorrectly viewed through lenses of male dominance and privilege (and often still are)? Increasingly since Western women were allowed to work during WWII, when a significant portion of the male population was conscripted or enlisted, we no longer have to rely on men for our financial survival and housing, and many of us are empowered to stand up to bad behavior without having to lose our homes or our incomes, without being assaulted and/or "put back in our places."

But is your comment about the forum, or about real life? If it's about the forum, sharing observations would contribute to the conversation in the thread.

I actually feel so cocooned or just lucky. I know all of that is true but in my two main career jobs I can honestly say I never encountered any sexism.
Both organisations are now run by women and all through my time there, men and women had equal respect and influence.
Either my eyes were closed or I was very lucky where I worked.

 

[Epsilon0]

I actually feel so cocooned or just lucky. I know all of that is true but in my two main career jobs I can honestly say I never encountered any sexism.
Both organisations are now run by women and all through my time there, men and women had equal respect and influence.
Either my eyes were closed or I was very lucky where I worked.

It's hard to detect sexism because we are all a part of the gender system - we cannot think outside it, it is imprinted in our brains. It takes a huge amount of effort to leave the comfort zone of the gender system.

Even I am guilty of sexism. Every day. I bet I am not ever aware of it half the time.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I actually feel so cocooned or just lucky. I know all of that is true but in my two main career jobs I can honestly say I never encountered any sexism.
Both organisations are now run by women and all through my time there, men and women had equal respect and influence.
Either my eyes were closed or I was very lucky where I worked.

You were in two careers where everyone had a higher level of education and used more critical thinking skills.

In the news industry, women had to struggle to gain acceptance and equality. Seems that you came in long after that, and that the environment was supportive of gender equality such that it wasn't an issue, or perhaps you weren't aware of undercurrents that didn't involve you personally.

I think you may well have been unaware of male privilege in those environments. Had folks compared their pay rates among peers, I would bet money that the men made more than women in equal positions in the environment and in the respective fields.

Still, it sounds like the environments were much more pleasant for all than in many mixed-gender work environments. There are places where women have equal respect and influence, but we have to work harder to reach that level, to actually be heard, and to have what we say equally valued. When women are the leaders, it is more likely to happen. In a female-dominant work environment, men can also be devalued, and just as likely, they can have even more privilege because there are more women to value them, like hens around a rooster -- with the right personality, the environment can be very pleasant for him.

 

[Epsilon0]

You were in two careers where everyone had a higher level of education and used more critical thinking skills.

In the news industry, women had to struggle to gain acceptance and equality. Seems that you came in long after that, and that the environment was supportive of gender equality such that it wasn't an issue, or perhaps you weren't aware of undercurrents that didn't involve you personally.

I think you may well have been unaware of male privilege in those environments. Had folks compared their pay rates among peers, I would bet money that the men made more than women in equal positions in the environment and in the respective fields.

Still, it sounds like the environments were much more pleasant for all than in many mixed-gender work environments. There are places where women have equal respect and influence, but we have to work harder to reach that level, to actually be heard, and to have what we say equally valued. When women are the leaders, it is more likely to happen. In a female-dominant work environment, men can also be devalued, and just as likely, they can have even more privilege because there are more women to value them, like hens around a rooster -- with the right personality, the environment can be very pleasant for him.

I think in Sweden the ratio was 75% last I read about it. Women earned 25% less than men in similar positions

 

[Deleted member 1465]

You were in two careers where everyone had a higher level of education and used more critical thinking skills.

In the news industry, women had to struggle to gain acceptance and equality. Seems that you came in long after that, and that the environment was supportive of gender equality such that it wasn't an issue, or perhaps you weren't aware of undercurrents that didn't involve you personally.

I think you may well have been unaware of male privilege in those environments. Had folks compared their pay rates among peers, I would bet money that the men made more than women in equal positions in the environment and in the respective fields.

Still, it sounds like the environments were much more pleasant for all than in many mixed-gender work environments. There are places where women have equal respect and influence, but we have to work harder to reach that level, to actually be heard, and to have what we say equally valued. When women are the leaders, it is more likely to happen. In a female-dominant work environment, men can also be devalued, and just as likely, they can have even more privilege because there are more women to value them, like hens around a rooster -- with the right personality, the environment can be very pleasant for him.

One thing I did notice is that women who were in higher positions behaved in a very masculine way. Oddly, in journalism you got shouted at and bullied everyday. It came with the territory regardless of gender.
I'm sure I did miss stuff because I had no agenda in that area coming from archaeology where half my colleagues and bosses were female.

 

[Sensei]

It's interesting that the large majority of the posts in this thread so far have been written by women. It's my impression that women much more often than men are interested in gender issues. I guess it's obvious that men don't see gender as an issue as they benefit from the status quo.

 

[itsamadworld]

It's interesting that the large majority of the posts in this thread so far have been written by women. It's my impression that women much more often than men are interested in gender issues. I guess it's obvious that men don't see gender as an issue as they benefit from the status quo.

Oh, but i hear plenty of men online who play the victim as if their lives would be better if they were female.....Well, we all know life is good for those whom are fortunate: some are men, some are women, and perhaps some in-betweens like Jamie lee Curtis or whomever...whoever!.....it's all a cosmic dice-roll...... I was in the military....I heard A LOT of locker-room- talk, much of it about women! Mind you, I'm not a nark.....I never reported no man, nor ball-busted him! I was the youngest of 3, and had an big-brother, an alcoholic father, and a sociopath neighbor male who would torment me at times!!....So I knew not to start shit,or cry when my feels where hurt, cuz that would just get me a better ass-whoopin.......But i had some nasty women in my life too, My mother, arguably the worst.....and I guess I learned from the best, because i can be a st8 up C_T......Now when a man plays the poor-me; I just roll my eyes, like he's preachin to the choir.!....Cuz unfortunate souls, and suffering, and wanting to ctb are not dictated by gender.....I never wanted children after seeing my parent's awful marriage, a few bad-romances of my own, and, the military reaffirmed my suspicions about cheating men and prostitutes and such......I sure don't trust any man, or woman, actually! Maybe even the unsures....well....i'm unsure...I guess the whole human race collectively !....I guess that is why i plan to cbt....i just don't have that much hope in humanity....

 

[Sensei]

Oh, but i hear plenty of men online who play the victim as if their lives would be better if they were female.....well we all know life is good for those whom are fortunate: some are men, some are women.....it's all a cosmic dice-roll...... I was in the military....I heard A LOT of locker-room- talk, much of it against women! Mind you, I'm not a nark.....I never reported no man, nor ball-busted him! I was the youngest of 3, and had an big-brother, an alcoholic father who had aspburgers, and a sociopath neighbor male who would torment me at times....So I knew not to start shit or cry when my feels where hurt, cuz that would just get me a better ass-whoopin.......But i had some nasty women in my life too....and I guess I learned from the best, becuz i can be a st8 up C_T......Now when a man plays the poor-me, I just roll my eyes, like he's preachin to the choir.....Cuz unfortunate souls and suffering and wanting to ctb are not dictated by gender..I never wanted children after seeing my parents aweful marriage, a few bad-romances, and the military reaffirmed my suspicions...I sure don't trust any man, or woman, acutally!, or unsures....well....i'm unsure...I guess the whole human race collectively I guess that is why i plan to cbt....i just don't have that much hope....

Right, some men do play victims nowadays. Being a man myself, I find it ridiculous. However, I'd claim that they constitute a small minority of all men, albeit a very loud minority. I've seldom met men who reason like that myself, but I might not be representative. I'm sorry about your bad experiences and I hope you'll find faith in people again, at least a few good people.

 

[Mr2005]

There's more male to female than female to male gender realignment. You think more men were born in the wrong body? I just think it's hard being a man these days

 

[Fragile]

interesting topic, this forum is one of the few places with a "balanced" gender ratio, i believe it was around 55%male and 45% female. most places on the internet tend to be overwhelmingly male or female dominated but i guess suicide is something that truly affects both genders.

and i find the gender aspect really interesting, I've always considered writing to be one of the most gender neutral forms of communication, but by reading some replies here and in other places i'm starting to see some differences in the way that males and females tend to write. i guess that i never cared for the gender of the person writing to see those differences.

i wonder what other people assume about my gender, english is not my first language and i'm terrible at communicating in general so i tend to make a lot of mistakes and my writing is a bit wonky, but i don't think that i present myself one way or the other... probably.