How gender is constructed and reinforced on SS

[Sabriel]

@GoodPersonEffed & @Epsilon0, maybe it's too obvious but I immediately perceive grey to be gender-neutral. I like what grey represents symbolically as a color...you can get grey out of mixing black and white or maybe even a muddied shade of grey out of a mixture of many colors. High key metaphors! Being grey and being gender-neutral really appeals to me, as I've often said on here that I wish I didn't have a physical body to begin with.

Pastels seem like the safe and demure self I used to want to be but can no longer actually embody. It's just nice to remember when I still felt that way. lol, how's that for repressed gender identity issues framed within the context of a broken adult woman who misses the innocence of her youth? I need to take a break from this forum for today. But it's been interesting, to say the least. I don't usually like to venture outside my shell like this.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

As a total ot aside... I love grey. It's the most useful colour in design.
White, all the tints of grey upto black and all the shades of black too. It can be used to create emphasis or to de-emphasise. Grey is wonderfully ambiguous.

So what are male and female colours then... and why?

 

[Epsilon0]

Universality of basic color terms and linguistic relativity. Yuhuuu!

@Underscore you have just made my day (and by day I mean night, because I am off to bed now)

But I can't wait to sink my teeth into color terminology and color perception tomorrow.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Would you say the color grey is gender neutral?

Also @Underscore regarding male and female colors.

Gray is a neutral color, but in the States I think it would not be considered gender neutral, I think it would be considered a male color, at least the shade I chose. If I had used a paler gray, it may be considered a gender-neutral or even feminine color, not sure though. It could be that it would have to be juxtaposed against white to be perceived as pale and/or as feminine.

When I joined, it wasn't my intention to come across as any gender, I just chose an avatar that would be for me the least distracting and the most calming. Later, as I noticed people assumed I was male, I attributed it to both my writing style and my avatar.

 

[Epsilon0]

Regarding pink and blue.

Pink and blue have only recently been marketed as gendered colors

In the 19th century (and earlier) pink was a boys' color as it was regarded as a dilluted red, which is traditionally associated with blood, battle, hunting and other "manly" activities involving violence and bloodshed.

Blue was, in Christan Western countries, associated with the Virgin Mary who is often depicted wearing a blue garment in iconography.

I don't remeber the exact circumstances which lead manufecturers of baby products to suddenly market pink for girls and blue for boys, but is quite a recent social construct.

And now comes the interesting part: there is some research that shows women actually prefer red, and react stronger than men to reddish colors. One explanation is that women in hunter-gatherer societies who could spot red fruits had an advantage. Probably, the ability to see better towards the red end of the spectrum meant you could gather more food and have higher chances to survive.

Unlike the gendered pink and blue preference which, by the way, is mostly typical of Western cultures, women's predilection for red is cross-cultural.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Pink and blue have only recently been marketed as gendered colors

You are correct there, I've noted this myself.

Blue was, in Christan Western countries, associated with the Virgin Mary who is often depicted wearing a blue garment in iconography.

Yes. Noted that too. Blue has traditionally been regarded as being associated with female archetypes in religious and magickal thinking.

Unlike the gendered pink and blue preference which, by the way, is mostly typical of Western cultures, women's predilection for red is cross-cultural.

But is that because red is a female colour? Red has many male associations by intuition. Dominance. Aggression.
Just because women may use red to communicate certain messages, doesn't mean its not a male colour. Again, goes beyond sex and gender. Nuanced and more fundamental.

This has the potential to be a very in depth discussion as it brings together several issues. I spent 14 years as a graphic designer and used colour to communicate subliminal messages. My understanding of this was never trained, it was innate. I did start studying later in my career, only to find I was being taught what I already knew. LOL! That innate understanding of colour is something we all posses to a greater or lesser degree or graphic designers wouldn't have a job, because no one would get the message.
Colour and gender concepts are very fundamental and go way deeper than sex or gender roles. Male and female concepts are more to do with profound principles that underlie our understanding of nature. Reference to colour in the plant and animal kingdom is also very interesting.

Again, I've probably got a lot to say on the subject (I'm such a smart-arse ). Unfortunately, I don't think I have it in me for another essay. Other things on my mind right now, but I'll contribute if I can.

 

[Epsilon0]

Botticelli's Madonna is so beautiful. Look at the deep blue color! And there's red too around the neck, but painters usually use red and blue together because they are complementary colors.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

https://color.adobe.com/create/

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Here's an interesting test if anyone is interested...comment for each colour whether you think it is male, female or neutral in it's associations.
Feel free to offer a short comment after each to explain, or no comment and it's just intuition.

Red
Blue
Yellow
Orange
Green
Purple

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought painters used blue for religious iconography like the Boticelli Madonna because it was the most expensive and difficult to come by. Was there some sort of papal dictate behind it?

Also, Boticelli's baby Jesus looks like he's drunk, is going to hurl, and/or is going to have a seizure.

 

[Epsilon0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought painters used blue for religious iconography like the Boticelli Madonna because it was the most expensive and difficult to come by. Was there some sort of papal dictate behind it?

Also, Boticelli's baby Jesus looks like he's drunk, is going to hurl, and/or is going to have a seizure.

Yes, I also heard that blue was very expensive. Is it cobalt, perhaps?
Never heard or it being a dictate.

Here's an interesting test if anyone is interested...comment for each colour whether you think it is male, female or neutral in it's associations.
Feel free to offer a short comment after each to explain, or no comment and it's just intuition.

Red
Blue
Yellow
Orange
Green
Purple

Red - female
Blue - male
Yellow - female
Orange - female
Green - male
Purple - female


Congratulations to me. I am brainwashed.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Here are my colour associations...

Red Male, dominant, aggressive, fire
Blue Female, passive, calming, water
Yellow Neutral, balance, intuition, fire
Orange Male, cutting, thought, air
Green Female, stable, sensation, earth
Purple Neutral, solid, emotion, water

 

[Epsilon0]

Here are my colour associations...

Red Male, dominant, aggressive, fire
Blue Female, passive, calming, water
Yellow Neutral, balance, intuition, fire
Orange Male, cutting, thought, air
Green Female, stable, sensation, earth
Purple Neutral, solid, emotion, water

I often find myself choosing purple (or shades of purple) when I buy something or must assign a color to something related to my own person. Can you psychoanalize that for me, please?

Oscar Wilde wrote in The Picture of Dorian Gray that one should never trust a woman wearing mauve. Should that worry me? I practically worship his works, though not his person (the man was a notorious paedophile).

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Old ladies with many cats wear purple. Purple is the colour of madness.

More seriously, purple is associated with the moon, the sea, the subconscious mind and the astral plane.

 

[Epsilon0]

I love cats and I am a lunatic in many respects. I also like to look at the stars and studied astronomy for a brief period of time.

See what I did there? I found random things in my life which fit in with the description of what the color purple signifies. I could do the same for every color.

Now, your turn. Which color do you identify with?

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I so see what you did you'd make an excellent psychic.

Can't tou guess my favourite colour by now?

 

[Epsilon0]

I so see what you did you'd make an excellent psychic.

Can't tou guess my favourite colour by now?

Brown?

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Eeeek no. Blue. When I was renovating the old family home many years ago, I pulled out the old telephone stand. Only to find my Dad had used my old toy box from when I was a kid! Floods of memories. It was sky blue. Also I remember the family care when I was little was pale blue too. So, blue. Though I like grey as well. And green.
As a graphic designer I used colour as a weapon.

 

[Epsilon0]

Eeeek no. Blue. When I was renovating the old family home many years ago, I pulled out the old telephone stand. Only to find my Dad had used my old toy box from when I was a kid! Floods of memories. It was sky blue. Also I remember the family care when I was little was pale blue too. So, blue. Though I like grey as well. And green.
As a graphic designer I used colour as a weapon.

I knew you were referring to the color of your avatar, but given your affection for potatoes I thought I would go with the less obvious choice.

 

[Somberly_]

I'm a bit late to the party and wasn't able to comment on this thread when I first read it a while ago, so my interesting thoughts/comments of the moment have spilled out my ears like soup. But I think the topic is interesting so I'll add what I have left :) I haven't been here long enough to have any experience of gender roles strictly within SS, but I have been on the internet for a long time and it is something I think about fairly often. One memory that really stuck with me:

Met a person online and spent time with them on a hobby for ~2 months. Not a super close relationship, just good company for each other and some casual chitchat about day to day stuff or whatever came to mind. Within the first hour I had formed a mental image of them in my mind just off of the way they spoke through chat. Nothing really concrete or damning, just a strong gut feeling. Looking back now that I know a bit more about genders and language, I could probably point out specific tendencies that indicated likelihood of one gender over the other. Maybe the way they didn't convey firm opinions (?), maybe the way they tended to ask for reaffirmation with questions (?), maybe the intensity of their emotions when describing things (?), maybe their word choice (?). Anyways, spoke with them for the next 2 months with the mindset that they were female, even though it never came up or mattered. Eventually, I finally spoke with them through voice chat and... definitely not a woman. Just an incredibly 'feminine' man. Like the typical cliche movie trope of the incredibly flamboyant homosexual personified. Definitely not the first time I had assumed wrong or been surprised someone on the internet wasn't how I imagined them, but this one was different for me for some reason. I couldn't shake this gut instinct that this man I was literally having a conversation with, was somehow an imposter. It made absolutely no sense and I felt ridiculous in my own head for trying to ignore reality. But I just had this core resounding instinct...

"they.are.a.woman.even.if.they.say.they.are.a.man.maybe.they.are.faking.a.mans.voice.this.isnt.right.just.assume.they.are.a.woman.and.get.back.to.what.you.are.doing.you.are.making.it.weird"

I think its hilarious even now.

Three weeks later, we had a conversation about them finally coming out to her family as trans, and making efforts to transition physically. So... was my gut right all along? I don't really know what to make of it. Was there some underlying element of her personality that subconsciously felt undeniably feminine to me? Was it just her trying to fit her own mental image of themselves as the woman they wanted to be? I'm not sure I really have enough perspective to even say, but I still thought it was interesting to assume something, be proven wrong, then proven wrong once more, but somehow be at least partially correct from the very beggining. I might have a shallow/naive understanding about it all, and I hope I don't come across as offensive to others.

Also @Underscore regarding male and female colors.

Gray is a neutral color, but in the States I think it would not be considered gender neutral, I think it would be considered a male color, at least the shade I chose. If I had used a paler gray, it may be considered a gender-neutral or even feminine color, not sure though. It could be that it would have to be juxtaposed against white to be perceived as pale and/or as feminine.

When I joined, it wasn't my intention to come across as any gender, I just chose an avatar that would be for me the least distracting and the most calming. Later, as I noticed people assumed I was male, I attributed it to both my writing style and my avatar.

Your shade of gray comes across as masculine to my gut. It's the color of the very nuetral businessman who wakes up every day to go to a job he hates because he is supposed to. If it were a lighter color, I still think I would see it as masculine, but you would have to show me the shade for me to say what my gut says. Maybe it would be that same businessman after he finally gets home and finally gets to unwind :) The most gender-nuetral shade of greyscale, to me, would be black.

Here are my colour associations...

Red Male, dominant, aggressive, fire
Blue Female, passive, calming, water
Yellow Neutral, balance, intuition, fire
Orange Male, cutting, thought, air
Green Female, stable, sensation, earth
Purple Neutral, solid, emotion, water

I get the feeling that most of my gut reactions and immediate thoughts for these colors are a reflection more of the actual individuals I have met in life rather than reflections of gender in society molding my preconceptions. I know in the back of my head that each of these colors definitely fits millions of people of both genders.

Red - Nuetral-leaning-Female. I can't really tell much about them because they are too angry.
Blue - Male. He is a calm, patient teacher who genuinely likes what he does.
Yellow - Female. She has a sunny disposition and is a lovely person to be around, she just laughs a bit too easy to tell if they were actually good jokes.
Orange - Male. He is down to earth, warm, and reliable, but also a bit worn out in a sad way.
Green - Female. She is somehow the nicest person I've met even if I don't know what she did that was so nice.
Purple - No gut reaction at all. Haven't met them before probably?

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I'm a bit late to the party and wasn't able to comment on this thread when I first read it a while ago, so my interesting thoughts/comments of the moment have spilled out my ears like soup. But I think the topic is interesting so I'll add what I have left :) I haven't been here long enough to have any experience of gender roles strictly within SS, but I have been on the internet for a long time and it is something I think about fairly often. One memory that really stuck with me:

Met a person online and spent time with them on a hobby for ~2 months. Not a super close relationship, just good company for each other and some casual chitchat about day to day stuff or whatever came to mind. Within the first hour I had formed a mental image of them in my mind just off of the way they spoke through chat. Nothing really concrete or damning, just a strong gut feeling. Looking back now that I know a bit more about genders and language, I could probably point out specific tendencies that indicated likelihood of one gender over the other. Maybe the way they didn't convey firm opinions (?), maybe the way they tended to ask for reaffirmation with questions (?), maybe the intensity of their emotions when describing things (?), maybe their word choice (?). Anyways, spoke with them for the next 2 months with the mindset that they were female, even though it never came up or mattered. Eventually, I finally spoke with them through voice chat and... definitely not a woman. Just an incredibly 'feminine' man. Like the typical cliche movie trope of the incredibly flamboyant homosexual personified. Definitely not the first time I had assumed wrong or been surprised someone on the internet wasn't how I imagined them, but this one was different for me for some reason. I couldn't shake this gut instinct that this man I was literally having a conversation with, was somehow an imposter. It made absolutely no sense and I felt ridiculous in my own head for trying to ignore reality. But I just had this core resounding instinct...

"they.are.a.woman.even.if.they.say.they.are.a.man.maybe.they.are.faking.a.mans.voice.this.isnt.right.just.assume.they.are.a.woman.and.get.back.to.what.you.are.doing.you.are.making.it.weird"

I think its hilarious even now.

Three weeks later, we had a conversation about them finally coming out to her family as trans, and making efforts to transition physically. So... was my gut right all along? I don't really know what to make of it. Was there some underlying element of her personality that subconsciously felt undeniably feminine to me? Was it just her trying to fit her own mental image of themselves as the woman they wanted to be? I'm not sure I really have enough perspective to even say, but I still thought it was interesting to assume something, be proven wrong, then proven wrong once more, but somehow be at least partially correct from the very beggining. I might have a shallow/naive understanding about it all, and I hope I don't come across as offensive to others.




Your shade of gray comes across as masculine to my gut. It's the color of the very nuetral businessman who wakes up every day to go to a job he hates because he is supposed to. If it were a lighter color, I still think I would see it as masculine, but you would have to show me the shade for me to say what my gut says. Maybe it would be that same businessman after he finally gets home and finally gets to unwind :) The most gender-nuetral shade of greyscale, to me, would be black.




I get the feeling that most of my gut reactions and immediate thoughts for these colors are a reflection more of the actual individuals I have met in life rather than reflections of gender in society molding my preconceptions. I know in the back of my head that each of these colors definitely fits millions of people of both genders.

Red - Nuetral-leaning-Female. I can't really tell much about them because they are too angry.
Blue - Male. He is a calm, patient teacher who genuinely likes what he does.
Yellow - Female. She has a sunny disposition and is a lovely person to be around, she just laughs a bit too easy to tell if they were actually good jokes.
Orange - Male. He is down to earth, warm, and reliable, but also a bit worn out in a sad way.
Green - Female. She is somehow the nicest person I've met even if I don't know what she did that was so nice.
Purple - No gut reaction at all. Haven't met them before probably?

Really interesting perspective, especially about that online relationship. You've based your answers around actual people from your life too. I hadn't considered that.

I knew you were referring to the color of your avatar, but given your affection for potatoes I thought I would go with the less obvious choice.

Nice try. But the blue strip came first remember? But really, I like all colours. As long as they are blue.

 

[Skathon]

Here's an interesting test if anyone is interested...comment for each colour whether you think it is male, female or neutral in it's associations.

Red - Neutral/mixed
Blue - Male
Yellow, orange, green, purple - Joker! Who at times mentions he is a woman...
Yellow - Neutral?
Orange - Female
Green - Male
Purple - Female/neutral

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Red - Neutral/mixed
Blue - Male
Yellow, orange, green, purple - Joker! Who at times mentions he is a woman...
Yellow - Neutral?
Orange - Female
Green - Male
Purple - Female/neutral

LOL nice. Well so far this little non-statistically viable experiment has reverted to the null hypothesis. I'm really not seeing the pattern I was expecting. That there was something in common with colour perception. Maybe a bigger (and blind) sample is needed. Or maybe I'm just wrong.

 

[faraway_beach]

Oscar Wilde wrote in The Picture of Dorian Gray that one should never trust a woman wearing mauve.

That was the Mauve Age. It is less a comment on the color itself than it is about falling for a craze or fad.

 

[Epsilon0]

That was the Mauve Age. It is less a comment on the color itself than it is about falling for a craze or fad.

Really? That's interesting, thank you for clearing that up. In truth, it didn't make much sense as a reference to the color itself.

I've never heard the term "the Mauve Age". Could you elabore a bit more, I'd love to hear more about it.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

It came after the neolithic and before the bronze age. Archaeological evidence suggests everyone was very camp.

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Epsilon0]

It came after the neolithic and before the bronze age. Archaeological evidence suggests everyone was very camp.

Sorry, couldn't resist

You have no idea how glad I am you could not resist :-)

 

[faraway_beach]

Just what I remember: Purple dye used to be extracted from murex mollusks, rare and expensive, reserved for royalty because it was such a status symbol. In the late 19th century, an English chemist looking for a way to synthesize the malaria medicine quinine accidentally synthesized the first coal-tar dye instead, mauvine. Suddenly an inexpensive, colorfast purple was available, and I think Queen Victoria's granddaughter was seen wearing it, which made it even more popular. It was a great boon to the English textile industry.

Other aniline dyes followed, but mauvine was the first. Symmetrically, it was another English chemist, looking for more dyes, who accidentally synthesized a medicine instead: sulfa. Before modern antibiotics, sulfa saved my granddad's life, I'm told.

(The mythical immortal alchemist Comte Saint Germain was also said to discovered the elixir of life while looking for textile dyes.)

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It came after the neolithic and before the bronze age. Archaeological evidence suggests everyone was very camp.

Sorry, couldn't resist

I'd like to start a thread, though you may not like it if I start it: Ask an Archaeologist.

Topics:

Vomitoriums - feathers or fingers? fact or fanatbulation?

Excavating a penis-shaped well - design inspired by nature, or a symbolic precursor to contemporary sports cars and SUVs?

Burial mounds - what can we infer, if anything, from the penis-shaped well discussion?

Ancient Greek and Roman male lust for males - is there evidence that philosophy was a cover for camp? were any feathers found?

How did ancient cultures catch the bus before there were wheels invented that go round and round?

How long do you think it took ancient peoples to figure out knives and tools kill animals, ergo knives and tools can kill self?

When and why did cultures veer away from worshipping life-giving mother deities toward egotistical and war-mongering/inciting father deities?

Dinosaur bones and fossils - reality, or greatest hoax ever? If hoax, how could one pull it off?

The Shroud of Turin - speaking of hoaxes...

The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe - if it was a hoax, how did they pull that one off?

What were the first musical instruments ever discovered?

If you could live in any period(s), what would it/they be and why? Would you want to be male or female?



Sorry for derailing. I got fascinated by the mauve concept and loved @Underscore's hilarious response. And I'm in need of new intellectual as well as humorous stimulation.

 

[Epsilon0]

@GoodPersonEffed

If I witnessed a Marian apparition I would probably think I had gone insane and check myself in at the psychiatry ward.

That's how skeptical I am. It's my loss really. I would waste a good miracle and would not even know it...


@faraway_beach

Thank you for that awesome explanation.