How gender is constructed and reinforced on SS

[GoodPersonEffed]

interesting topic, this forum is one of the few places with a "balanced" gender ratio, i believe it was around 55%male and 45% female. most places on the internet tend to be overwhelmingly male or female dominated but i guess suicide is something that truly affects both genders.

and i find the gender aspect really interesting, I've always considered writing to be one of the most gender neutral forms of communication, but by reading some replies here and in other places i'm starting to see some differences in the way that males and females tend to write. i guess that i never cared for the gender of the person writing to see those differences.

i wonder what other people assume about my gender, english is not my first language and i'm terrible at communicating in general so i tend to make a lot of mistakes and my writing is a bit wonky, but i don't think that i present myself one way or the other... probably.

My assumption while reading your post, and before looking at your avatar after reading, was that you are female. Then I had to think about why I had that impression, and why I had it so quickly. It might be because you used "I guess."

 

[Fragile]

My assumption while reading your post, and before looking at your avatar after reading, was that you are female. Then I had to think about why I had that impression, and why I had it so quickly. It might be because you used "I guess."

that's really interesting.

now, before i tell you if you were right or wrong, why do you think that using "i guess" could be considered feminine, i'm curious about that.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

that's really interesting.

now, before i tell you if you were right or wrong, why do you think that using "i guess" could be considered feminine, i'm curious about that.

I asked myself the same thing. I had to think about whether I've noticed men saying it. I would think they do, but when I think of someone saying it, I think of a female. It seems a less authoritative way of saying things, and males are conditioned to be more authoritative and confident in their speech, while women are conditioned to be more demuring. Females are chastised to be more "ladylike," or less "uppity." Males are chastised to be more like "a man," less of a "pussy," don't be like a "girl."

 

[Fragile]

I asked myself the same thing. I had to think about whether I've noticed men saying it. I would think they do, but when I think of someone saying it, I think of a female. It seems a less authoritative way of saying things, and males are conditioned to be more authoritative and confident in their speech, while women are conditioned to be more demuring. Females are chastised to be more "ladylike," or less "uppity." Males are chastised to be more like "a man," less of a "pussy," don't be like a "girl."

that makes sense, and maybe that's why people tend to think of me as a female when i write, i'm a male btw.
i've always been "submissive" and not as assertive as most males, i've always had more female friends than male friends and i was raised without a father and by a woman that suffered really bad in life, so no one taught me how to be more "masculine" but i've always had a lot of respect for women, even if i never cared about gender.

i guess that i'll change my cat-profile pic to something more appropriate.

 

[BabyYoda]

No one can really say for sure. For instance, I'm biologically female, but I tend not to identify with any gendered label. What's more important to me is that people respect whatever I identify as.

In real life though, I try to be more feminine.

In university I have like a 6:5 male friends to female friends ratio. I have slightly more guy friends than girl friends.

 

[Mr2005]

I identify as a god so you should treat me as one.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

that makes sense, and maybe that's why people tend to think of me as a female when i write, i'm a male btw.
i've always been "submissive" and not as assertive as most males, i've always had more female friends than male friends and i was raised without a father and by a woman that suffered really bad in life, so no one taught me how to be more "masculine" but i've always had a lot of respect for woman, even if i never cared about gender.

i guess that i'll change my cat-profile pic to something more appropriate.

Well, I appreciate that you have respect for women! And it makes sense that someone who grew up without a masculine influence in the home, and had more female friends than male, would speak differently.

Thank you for sharing. I always enjoy learning.

And your profile pic is great! I hope you'll update the thread about how many PMs you get from male members!

 

[Mr2005]

We laughed at that silly remark "you sexy potato" but this is precisely how the gender system works.

The category "gender" is both descriptive and normative. It is normative in the sense that it dictates how male and female can, should and are expected to act.

That idiot user called you a sexy potato because in his mind that is acceptable, macho behaviour. Quite frankly, I must admit, he is not to blame. He has been taught that male gender is enacted that way from the day he opened his eyes. If anything, he is a mindless fool.



Now that is a sweeping generalization which lacks any validity.

I would kindly ask you to elaborate, or at least give an example to explain what you mean, or else I cannot reply to it.

I am itching to reply, but as it stands right now, it would not be fair game.

I've been called a misogynist so many times it isn't funny. Sexual desire is now considered hatred. If I hated women I wouldn't desire them at all

It's unfortunate that you're alive in Western culture at this point in what is perhaps a pendulum swing.

Women have been subjugated for most of history and still are in many cultures. While the current climate is difficult for you, and I do empathize, can you imagine how powerless women have been, and how we've been incorrectly viewed through lenses of male dominance and privilege (and often still are)? Increasingly since Western women were allowed to work during WWII, when a significant portion of the male population was conscripted or enlisted, we no longer have to rely on men for our financial survival and housing, and many of us are empowered to stand up to bad behavior without having to lose our homes or our incomes, without being assaulted and/or "put back in our places."

But is your comment about the forum, or about real life? If it's about the forum, sharing observations would contribute to the conversation in the thread.

The forum is particularly bad.

 

[waterbottleman]

I identify as a god so you should treat me as one.

Yes a cat would think that =D

 

[Mr2005]

Lol you're right about that. His Lordship thinks he owns the place.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

The forum is particularly bad.

Well, without examples I can't accurately respond except to what I've personally observed. What I've observed from women on the forum is being offended about being hit on here, or making arrangements for a suicide partner only to discover the man had no intention of ctb'ing with her and was seeking a sex partner. If anyone, male or female, is seeking satisfaction of their sexual desires, this is the least appropriate venue for such pursuits. It's off-putting and upsetting to be vulnerable, to expose one's pain and fear, only to be approached with the intention of convincing one to expose their body parts, too.

I have a feeling that no matter how I explain it, you'll view what I'm saying as part of the particularly bad, and feel victimized by it. If you can't see reason in what I'm saying, then I wish you could be a woman for a few days and experience life as we do. I wish you could travel the world alone as a woman as I have, and understand how much easier and safer it is to walk in new places with a man at your side, and resent that it's that way. I wish you could know what it's like to want to walk down a busy street and just accomplish your tasks, without being told by total strangers to smile because you'd look prettier. I wish guys' dicks were explicitly outlined by their clothing so that women could stare and judge and comment and sexualize, especially when guys just want to go out and accomplish their tasks. I wish for your sake that women had testosterone, too, and were equally on the lookout for a hookup no matter the environment or situation, then we'd all be happier and have our wants and needs met.

 

[Mr2005]

I'm sorry I just don't have the strength anymore

 

[waterbottleman]

I'm sorry I just don't have the strength anymore

=(

For you =)

 

[Epsilon0]

I've been called a misogynist so many times it isn't funny. Sexual desire is now considered hatred. If I hated women I wouldn't desire them at all

The forum is particularly bad.

Being called a misogynist without cause is defintely a bad thing, and I understand it hurt your feelings. I do not mean to say that men hate women. This is not what gender is about.

Gender is a theoretical framework that attempts to explain how the two categories male - female are constructed in society through the process of assigning each category certain roles and attributes.

Gender also casts light upon the fact that since men were the original architects of this construction they saw fit to endow men with all the superior qualities humans posess (intellect, reason, strength, rationality) and leave women with nothing but scraps (ignorance, superstition, weakness and irrationality).

Gender is not so much a matter of harted as one of inequality.

You mention sexuality, and I can see why sexuality pops up in a discussion about gender.

But I must point out that sexuality is just one of many dimensions comprised by gender, and by no means the most important. The most important and problematic facet of the gender system is in fact the power imbalance between men and women.


Ps: Also, it's possible to desire something and hate it at the same time. Haven't you seen Gollum in The Lord of the Rings

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Gender also casts light upon the fact that since men were the original architects of this construction they saw fit to endow men with all the superior qualities humans posess (intellect, reason, strength, rationality) and leave women with nothing but scraps (ignorance, superstition, weakness and irrationality).

I find myself struggling with accepting this, even as I may find it appealing, so I can't. It seems to be a leap of logic. I'd love to see your reasoning fleshed out.

 

[Epsilon0]

I find myself struggling with accepting this, even as I may find it appealing, so I can't. It seems to be a leap of logic. I'd love to see your reasoning fleshed out.

I read an article about this. Hang on, let me see if I can find it. If not, I will explain what I mean. Thank you for your close reading.

 

[Epsilon0]

Edit

Act II, scene 1

(Enter Patriarchy)


Historically speaking, all the societies in the Western World have been patriarchies since the beginning of modernity (and here I use the term modernity very loosly). In a patriarchy, men do not only hold political and economical power, but also control institutions - marriage for instance, and have precedence to decide the content of culture (since men are most active in literature, philosophy and (almost exclusivly active in) religion).

So, when I say that gender is s cultural and social construct, and that men are its original architects, I mean that gender has been constructed within the confines of a patriarchical society.

Men decided (through ecomonical, political and cultural pressure) which roles women would be allowed to play, and which roles they would be denied - for instance the right to vote, to work, to own property, to pursue an education.

Forbidding women to play various roles in society has led to certain discourses about men and other discourses about women. And as you well know, discourses shape everything, including gender.

If you find this explanation full of holes, let me know. I would love to hear your thoughts about it. I never was keen on shabby chic, I like my clothes (and reasoning) intact.

That being said, I would like to move away from the topic above and go back to the idea that gender is so entrenched in our brains we can't even see it.

Act II, scene 2

(Enter Morphology)

In Romance languages such as Italian, Spanish or French, nouns are either masculine or feminine. The masculine form is the the unmarked form, whereas the femine form is the marked form.

directeur - directice
acteur - actrice

Men are the point of reference, they are the standard. Women are a deviation from the standard.

"Man is the measure of all things."

What is a woman then? She is a suffix-ed man...

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

With regard to marked nouns, I recall from studies in linguistics and semiotics that unmarked generally psychologically preferred, although there are exceptions. Stable is preferable to unstable, sane to insane, free to unfree, kind to unkind, man to woman. The use of unmarked above is one such exception -- unmarked or unblemished is preferable to marked or blemished. There are also some marked anomalies that are true anomalies, but I don't recall any at the moment.

Also from what I recall from the courses is that wo-man means a man that is missing something, and it has certainly developed that women are often perceived as lacking features attributed to men, and not just a penis -- reason, strength, even value.

And yet...and this relates to Act II...it is posited in some academic circles that marriage developed as a bartering system to strengthen social ties among groups. Women were literally given in marriage, just as a father gives his daughter to her groom in contemporary wedding ceremonies. Women have been collected as concubines, and as odalisques in harems. Almost no societies exist now where women have multiple husbands, and throughout history they, as well as matriarchies, have been rare. But societies still exist where women are bartered by their own families as chattel and not humans.

Even Gautama Buddha said that it is suffering to be a woman, and that it is better to have rebirth as a male. There is much I have enjoyed about being a female (marked word), but if I had to experience rebirth, I would far prefer to come back with a well-functioning penis and be strong and tall enough that I could go most anywhere unmolested (mark of preference). Of course, that's just what Gautama said, based on his training and background, not because of his enlightenment but instead reinforced by it. He also didn't think women could become a Buddha, that only men could, and so not only was rebirth as a man more favorable, but also more conducive to the ultimate outcome.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

But why?
Why are there such embedded gender preconceptions?
Why have so many societies developed through patriarchy?

(Remember...archaeologist here, who also studied a little anthropology as it goes with the territory, so I may have a perspective on the origins of gender archetypes in prehistory.)

 

[itsamadworld]

Men are the point of reference, they are the standard. Women are a deviation from the standard.

"Man is the measure of all things."

What is a woman then? She is a suffix-ed man...

After reading this, it occurred to me, that my user namelooks a lot like "it's a man's world." :D haha it wasn't my plan....but oh well....I totally enjoy reading your posts btw! and a shout out to @GoodPersonEffed and a few others which i'll get say later. I am still trying to figure out how this site works...

 

[Epsilon0]

But why?
Why are there such embedded gender preconceptions?
Why have so many societies developed through patriarchy?

(Remember...archaeologist here, who also studied a little anthropology as it goes with the territory, so I may have a perspective on the origins of gender archetypes in prehistory.)

Please answer your own question! You point of view is particularly valuable precisely because you are an archaelogist.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Please answer your own question! You point of view is particularly valuable precisely because you are an archaelogist.

Arrgggg I knew you'd want me to do that. I was being lazy and hoping to get you to answer first. Can't right now on phone. Need pc and mouse to think and make a proper case. I'll try and remember and do it tomorrow I'd I get on the pc. I can't think with my thumb I'm no teenager. You should see how angry I get at autocorrect.

 

[Epsilon0]

@Epsilon0 isn't a male? My world will never be the same.

And neither will mine now that I read your comment.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Arrgggg I knew you'd want me to do that. I was being lazy and hoping to get you to answer first. Can't right now on phone. Need pc and mouse to think and make a proper case. I'll try and remember and do it tomorrow I'd I get on the pc. I can't think with my thumb I'm no teenager. You should see how angry I get at autocorrect.

Well I'm kind of bogged down right now with other stuff, but I'm going to see if a can find my undergrad dissertation first, which was the basis of my understanding of some fundamental gender archetypes in neolithic Britain. Don't wait up though, I'll have to see if I have a floppy disc reader and if the floppies from 1994 work in Windows 10!

 

[Epsilon0]

Well I'm kind of bogged down right now with other stuff, but I'm going to see if a can find my undergrad dissertation first, which was the basis of my understanding of some fundamental gender archetypes in neolithic Britain. Don't wait up though, I'll have to see if I have a floppy disc reader and if the floppies from 1994 work in Windows 10!

Floppy disks! They made a little sound when the pc read them and they contained a lot of information.

I have been thinking about your question and will write a few ideas later.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Floppy disks! They made a little sound when the pc read them and they contained a lot of information.

I have been thinking about your question and will write a few ideas later.

Great. Now i have to paint a moustache on my potato. Looking for old tech now.

Great. Now i have to paint a moustache on my potato. Looking for old tech now.

So. I don't have a floppy drive on this pc (who would have one these days?). I don't have a usb floppy drive as I thought I did - it's an old zip drive. I can't find my hard copy dissertation. It must have got lost somewhere along the way, maybe in the move. Shit. I'd never throw that away. Really annoyed now. All that hard work, gone.

Edit: post written in Word, I just need to check a few dates etc, which I'll have to do tomorrow now.

 

[Epsilon0]

I had intended to write a few notes about gender and hunter-gatherers but unfortunately I am struggling to come up with anything coherent, and what's more, each time I try to formulate a thought it seems I am justifying the existence of gender. Needless to say this troubles me, and makes me wonder if the concept of gender is in any way useful for the emancipation of women, but since @Underscore went to all this trouble and even unearthed a museum piece of technology, I feel compelled to not let myself fall prey to cowardice.


@Underscore mentioned neolithic societies but I thought I would go back even farther to hunter-gatherers and I asked myself what gender would have looked like then.

The only answer that came to my mind is that women's primary function was (and has always been) that of caregivers - since they carry offsprings, give birth and breastfeed.

But if women's primary function is reproduction, it follows that the essential property of women is their bodily function. Which brings me to the typical gender dichotomy: body=female - mind=male. And as soon I write this down I find myself trapped by my own argument, because I am implying that gender is indeed biologically motivated (which I am trying to avoid).

So, I just give up.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I had intended to write a few notes about gender and hunter-gatherers but unfortunately I am struggling to come up with anything coherend, and what's more, each time I try to formulate a thought it seems I am justifying the existence of gender. Needless to say this troubles me, and makes me wonder if the concept of gender is in any way useful for the emancipation of women, but since @Underscore went to all this trouble and even unearthed a museum piece of technology, I feel compelled to not let myself fall prey to cowardice.


@Underscore mentioned neolithic societies but I thought I would go back even farther to hunter-gatherers and I ask myself what gender would have looked like then.

The only answer that came to my mind is that women's primary function was (and has always been) that of caregivers - since they carry offsprings, give birth and breastfeed.

But if women's primary function is reproduction, it follows that the essential property of women is their bodily function. Which brings me to the typical gender dichotomy: body=female - mind=male. And as soon I write this down I find myself trapped by my own argument, because I am implying that gender is indeed biologically motivated (which I am trying to avoid).

So, I just give up.

Oh dear. Maybe I'd best not post then. Yes my observations run along similar lines. A biological basis for stereotypes. But there had to be a reason. What more plausible reason than a deterministic one?

 

[Epsilon0]

Oh dear. Maybe I'd best not post then. Yes my observations run along similar lines. A biological basis for stereotypes. But there had to be a reason. What more plausible reason than a deterministic one?

If you've already written it, I hope you post it.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

If you've already written it, I hope you post it.

Okey. Just wanna check some dates and it's always wise to leave time before writing and editing too.