How do I cope with the fact I'll never feel the warm embrace of a woman?

[NaturalBornNEET]

I know a lot of you will read this thread and roll your eyes, that I'm just another bitching "incel". Well to those people: fuck off

I'm serious. How do I cope with this? It's on my mind 247 and it's the reason behind my suicidality

 

[flightless bird]

I'll never feel the warm embrace of a woman

may i ask why?

 

[Dejected 55]

Right there with you. I'm 55 and it just gets worse and lonelier as time goes on and I observe people all around me experiencing relationships that I can't even fully imagine anymore.

 

[NaturalBornNEET]

Right there with you. I'm 55 and it just gets worse and lonelier as time goes on and I observe people all around me experiencing relationships that I can't even fully imagine anymore.

I'm so fucking sorry, the only reason I'm still breathing is cuz I'm relatively young so I know I don't have it that bad. Thank you for being honest, though I know you have no other option but to be honest, the worst part is no one understands and refuses to try to understand how utterly devastating it can be. You're still alive tho, that's all that fucking matters, that still means there's a chance it can happen, that's all I'm living for. But the thought of suicide also comforts me, when I'm dead I won't have to agonize over this fucking farce.

may i ask why?

Social anxiety and low IQ, I have no verbal wit, therefore women find me utterly repugnant and I cannot blame them

 

[Forever Sleep]

I can only tell you what I did. In my 20's and 30's, I so desperately wanted a partner. I went through several bouts of limerence- obsessive crushes on guys. It wasn't pretty. It got to a point I could see how much it was dominating and screwing up my life. I learnt about the term 'limerence' at that point, because I figured my crushes were borderline crazy! That made it easier to keep a hold of them rather than them controlling me.

Eventually, their intensity faded. I became very focussed on my career. Truthfully, I always felt like a femcel really. But, as time went on, I started really observing people in relationships around me. My parents, family members, friends and it made me truthfully question if I even wanted that.

Theirs was the reality, not the fairy tale- constantly bickering and testing one another. Getting irritated. I started to think perhaps it was in some part, choice that I was single- which made me feel better about it. Eventually, it lead me to really value my independence and sense of freedom.

I do have a very good imagination though. I think I would have struggled without that. I'm very good at cuddling my pillow and believing it's a person! Sometimes, the reality hit would then hurt but then, I'd remind myself all the negatives the real thing likely comes with. I'm pretty lucky I suppose that I feel able to sate my own needs.

That's not to say you should aim for that. It's just how I happened to traverse the problem. If it truly is intolerable though and, this is your main wish in life, I think you'd need to do all you could to make it happen.

Literally, when I was in the throws of limerence, I worked very hard on myself and even bravely tried to initiate a friendship with the guy I liked. It didn't work but, at least I gave it my all.

I guess you have to ask yourself- are you doing all you possibly can to meet people and attract them? If there are obstacles, I think it becomes a choice pretty much. Is it worth trying to get over them or, is it simply too uncomfortable and frightening?

In which case- if we do decide to give up, it's like we either have to find ways of being ok with being single or, we go through torment. It's not exactly a choice how we feel but, we can nudge ourselves slowly towards a different way of looking at it. I guess that's what I ended up doing. Probably because it was so unpleasant for so long.

 

[jadeturtle]

Are you a male? I'm a male, 37, grew up in the 90s and skirted this gender war stuff. If you grew up in the 00s or later, none of this gender war stuff is your fault. I would tell everybody under 30 to never under any circumstance blame yourself for not having a partner. You are coming into a destroyed society. The society does not even know how bad it is. It could take the society 20-30 more years to even understand how bad it is. The society has no way of understanding, supporting or working with young men. The society uses words, labels and images to deny its collective responsibility and punish the individual. I recommend you NEVER use that i word ever again.

This is what helps me cope. Sex just wants to reproduce. It's burden of initializing is on the male, ya know, to "start" the whole thing. The result is another life (reproduction). Sex is so powerful that (for the male) everything is channeled through it. We believe a woman can give us purpose, validation, caring, meaning, value, pleasure, warmth, you name it. We see that and we see her, but we do not see the sex instinct. The sex instinct is so powerful, it is beyond body parts, intercourse, etc. It is a type of existential obsession where the opposite sex provides all of our physical, emotional and spiritual needs. To most people, it is invisible.

I believe good & evil were "stirred into" a human's soul. All of their evils of suffering APPEAR to be lifted from them through her, "in her arms" (invisible sex reality). Just observe the people who mate through their problems. They believe the intimacy frees them from their torments. Then they are blindsided months later and they realize they created an innocent life in a scandal of suffering: this is the wickedness of sex and creation. This is how evil perpetuates itself. The lie is that she holds the key to eliminate all or ANY of our suffering.

She does NOT hold that power. Being in her arms will NOT help. Having a "body count" is a societal concept and it won't bring INNER PEACE. You have come up in the world at a time where gender relations are totally destroyed. THAT is what is important for young men to understand. What do they do when she is not there? How can they go on without any hope of her appearing? This is the reality for men today. Men will need to survive with a higher ideal, one that is attainable for them.

It's about managing your sex, then. I recommend you find a religious or ethnic attitude towards sex that allows you see it, work with it, and grow from it. The Christian war against sex is not a good fit for most people, I only recommend it if you believe you will have success repressing your sex. I practice Taoist and Indian divine sex practices that help me redirect away from the sex instinct (in a physical "woman's" arms) towards intimacy with the universe. I see strength, intimacy, comfort, pleasure, etc. from the UNIVERSE, not from a PERSON.

In the modern western hyper industrialized ideological social media post capitalist world, this is not the time to place any dependence on a romantic partner. That's a luxury of men from the 50s. We as men have much greater challenges to overcome. You can do it man <3

TLDR summary: you see the sex instinct for what it is, you realize it's not real, and then you start applying your efforts to problems that are even harder or beyond the original problem

 

[NaturalBornNEET]

Are you a male? I'm a male, 37, grew up in the 90s and skirted this gender war stuff. If you grew up in the 00s or later, none of this gender war stuff is your fault. I would tell everybody under 30 to never under any circumstance blame yourself for not having a partner. You are coming into a destroyed society. The society does not even know how bad it is. It could take the society 20-30 more years to even understand how bad it is. The society has no way of understanding, supporting or working with young men. The society uses words, labels and images to deny its collective responsibility and punish the individual. I recommend you NEVER use that i word ever again.

This is what helps me cope. Sex just wants to reproduce. It's burden of initializing is on the male, ya know, to "start" the whole thing. The result is another life (reproduction). Sex is so powerful that (for the male) everything is channeled through it. We believe a woman can give us purpose, validation, caring, meaning, value, pleasure, warmth, you name it. We see that and we see her, but we do not see the sex instinct. The sex instinct is so powerful, it is beyond body parts, intercourse, etc. It is a type of existential obsession where the opposite sex provides all of our physical, emotional and spiritual needs. To most people, it is invisible.

I believe good & evil were "stirred into" a human's soul. All of their evils of suffering APPEAR to be lifted from them through her, "in her arms" (invisible sex reality). Just observe the people who mate through their problems. They believe the intimacy frees them from their torments. Then they are blindsided months later and they realize they created an innocent life in a scandal of suffering: this is the wickedness of sex and creation. This is how evil perpetuates itself. The lie is that she holds the key to eliminate all or ANY of our suffering.

She does NOT hold that power. Being in her arms will NOT help. Having a "body count" is a societal concept and it won't bring INNER PEACE. You have come up in the world at a time where gender relations are totally destroyed. THAT is what is important for young men to understand. What do they do when she is not there? How can they go on without any hope of her appearing? This is the reality for men today. Men will need to survive with a higher ideal, one that is attainable for them.

It's about managing your sex, then. I recommend you find a religious or ethnic attitude towards sex that allows you see it, work with it, and grow from it. The Christian war against sex is not a good fit for most people, I only recommend it if you believe you will have success repressing your sex. I practice Taoist and Indian divine sex practices that help me redirect away from the sex instinct (in a physical "woman's" arms) towards intimacy with the universe. I see strength, intimacy, comfort, pleasure, etc. from the UNIVERSE, not from a PERSON.

In the modern western hyper industrialized ideological social media post capitalist world, this is not the time to place any dependence on a romantic partner. That's a luxury of men from the 50s. We as men have much greater challenges to overcome. You can do it man <3

TLDR summary: you see the sex instinct for what it is, you realize it's not real, and then you start applying your efforts to problems that are even harder or beyond the original problem

Ye I'm a guy, 22. I agree with you, logically, in fact I've mulled over these truths for years now. But I just can't reconcile my mind with my heart. I know completely that even if I get what I want the satisfaction will swiftly pass, that it's all vain.

I spent (wasted) so much of my teens entrenched in spirituality like zen, advaita vedanta, taoism and occult, etc, as a cope. But it was all me bullshitting myself, an excuse to avoid reality and the outside world like a coward. I never actually tried to put any of these teachings into practice or experience their truths, it was all theory and mental masturbation. I still think non-duality and God is the "truth" and only non vain pursuit, but I'm too mentally feeble for spirituality, maybe I'm just not mature enough.

Theorising spirituality is such a cope and escape for me that I have to scold myself whenever I end up crawling back to it, like it's hard drugs. What I want is to experience intimacy, hopefully as a way to to exorcise myself of the desire all together by demistifying the idea of love and romance. Otherwise I'll always feel the "what if"

I agree with you the sex instinct is a vain illusion, but that's only my mind that's able to see that. My body, nervous system, heart is stuck in a caveman state and I'm at a loss on how to get it to fucking wake up, the only solutions I can think of would be to burn through my desire for intimacy by indulging it, psychedelics or CTB

I can only tell you what I did. In my 20's and 30's, I so desperately wanted a partner. I went through several bouts of limerence- obsessive crushes on guys. It wasn't pretty. It got to a point I could see how much it was dominating and screwing up my life. I learnt about the term 'limerence' at that point, because I figured my crushes were borderline crazy! That made it easier to keep a hold of them rather than them controlling me.

Eventually, their intensity faded. I became very focussed on my career. Truthfully, I always felt like a femcel really. But, as time went on, I started really observing people in relationships around me. My parents, family members, friends and it made me truthfully question if I even wanted that.

Theirs was the reality, not the fairy tale- constantly bickering and testing one another. Getting irritated. I started to think perhaps it was in some part, choice that I was single- which made me feel better about it. Eventually, it lead me to really value my independence and sense of freedom.

I do have a very good imagination though. I think I would have struggled without that. I'm very good at cuddling my pillow and believing it's a person! Sometimes, the reality hit would then hurt but then, I'd remind myself all the negatives the real thing likely comes with. I'm pretty lucky I suppose that I feel able to sate my own needs.

That's not to say you should aim for that. It's just how I happened to traverse the problem. If it truly is intolerable though and, this is your main wish in life, I think you'd need to do all you could to make it happen.

Literally, when I was in the throws of limerence, I worked very hard on myself and even bravely tried to initiate a friendship with the guy I liked. It didn't work but, at least I gave it my all.

I guess you have to ask yourself- are you doing all you possibly can to meet people and attract them? If there are obstacles, I think it becomes a choice pretty much. Is it worth trying to get over them or, is it simply too uncomfortable and frightening?

In which case- if we do decide to give up, it's like we either have to find ways of being ok with being single or, we go through torment. It's not exactly a choice how we feel but, we can nudge ourselves slowly towards a different way of looking at it. I guess that's what I ended up doing. Probably because it was so unpleasant for so long.

The most at peace I've ever been was when I was apathetic to human connection and preferred isolation, which was during my teens. I would even hug a pillow too lol, and pretend it was a fictional crush, that was good enough for me.

This obsession only started when I integrated back into society and work last year, and I had my first crush and experience with limerence, yeah, it's abject torture for the soul.

Maybe with time I'll return back to my default hedonic treadmill/apathy, it's not an ideal way to live but it beats limerence.

Have you completely given up? Are you still a little bit open to the chance of finding love? I think the issue is falling back into experiencing limerence, which is hard to avoid if you're wired to have obsessive thought patterns and feel intensely, like me. If you could curb that tendency to obsess and just keep any crushes you catch to a mild interest it would take away the inner turmoil that comes with putting yourself out there, most of it at least.

I still want to pursue romance myself but I fear falling into that same mental spiral again because my mind likes to see me suffer.

 

[vitbar]

I'm not an incel, but my social anxiety and depression makes finding a partner difficult. It used to weigh on me terribly, and like yourself I found it particularly bad when I started trying to reintegrate with society after a long time hiding away. It brought up so many of my issues around people and about myself.

Like @Forever Sleep I eventually realised I like being single, being independent, and feel at peace with that. I don't feel that weight on me any more.

A couple of bad relationships lead to doubts when future opportunities arose. I thought about whether to pursue, and whether I genuinely wanted a relationship. I looked at the couples in my life and what they had. I haven't closed myself off from the idea completely, but we'd have to be a really solid match or I'd rather be single.

 

[darksouls]

I have only received love from my pets
for men I have always been nothing
but a sex object
in general I have never received love from people in my entire life

 

[NaturalBornNEET]

I have only received love from my pets
for men I have always been nothing
but a sex object
in general I have never received love from people in my entire life

What pets do you have? I really want to adopt some pet rats but I have to move out first. Thinking of volunteering at an animal shelter in the meantime, might help the loneliness.

Sorry to hear. What's happened to you for you to come to that conclusion, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[darksouls]

What pets do you have? I really want to adopt some pet rats but I have to move out first. Thinking of volunteering at an animal shelter in the meantime, might help the loneliness.

Sorry to hear. What's happened to you for you to come to that conclusion, if you don't mind my asking?

unfotunately all my pets have passed away
I had a female dog for about 15 years
and several other pets
most of which I adopted from poor conditions
or picked up from the street
some were abused by humans
not all survived
some I were able to nurse back to health

 

[milkteacrown]

I'm 24 and an escort. Many clients I have are people like you who desire intimacy but struggle finding someone because of factors like their anxiety. Interestingly, I've always found those men perfectly pleasant and easy to get along with, and much easier to be intimate with than customers like old, overconfident perverts who were popular in their youth and still chase it. Even though social anxiety is a mental illness and one you struggle with deeply, know that it isn't an immutable trait—it can get better, and you'll find a lot more luck when it does. I hope that is comforting in some way.

 

[d3adly]

I know a lot of you will read this thread and roll your eyes, that I'm just another bitching "incel". Well to those people: fuck off

I'm serious. How do I cope with this? It's on my mind 247 and it's the reason behind my suicidality

I honestly feel the same way I've never had a genuine relationship with anybody even though I get told that I'm pretty and would make a good girlfriend a lot :\

 

[Dejected 55]

I'm 24 and an escort. Many clients I have are people like you who desire intimacy but struggle finding someone because of factors like their anxiety. Interestingly, I've always found those men perfectly pleasant and easy to get along with, and much easier to be intimate with than customers like old, overconfident perverts who were popular in their youth and still chase it. Even though social anxiety is a mental illness and one you struggle with deeply, know that it isn't an immutable trait—it can get better, and you'll find a lot more luck when it does. I hope that is comforting in some way.

I've posted elsewhere, all my sexual experiences took place from my ages 28-33 roughly and I am 55 now. I don't know the ages of the escorts I saw at the time. Pretty sure a couple of them were in their early 40s, and one or two might have been in their late 20s. Not exactly sure. But I got along with all of them. I never treated them like purchased "things." In fact, I'm not much of an initiator, so they pretty much had to initiate things, which probably was more comfortable for them I would imagine when having sex with strangers.

Anyway, it was "easier" in a way being with the escorts because they were there for the transaction and I knew what was going to happen, so there was no reason to be nervous. I was told by several of them, when conversation turned that way, that I was a nice man that lots of women would be happy to be with. But, then they were there to be nice to me for money. Again, not judging them or looking down on them. I'm just saying that since I actually was nice and was safe for them, they would want repeat business and I pretty much expected them to lie to me and I could never really believe if anything I said or did with them was really valued or appreciated sincerely.

There was no real connection, which is why I ultimately stopped seeing them. I realized once I had been able to have sex a few times that it really wasn't what I was looking for. I mean, it's great... but without the rest of the connection and relationship, it's a pretty empty experience to me... and I was never going to be able to have that true connection with someone only there for the money because it was her job to be there.

 

[cylus46]

Haha! I'm in the same boat! Also we're around the same age and I'm hot, and I can flirt with women but I'm so mentally unwell I stop myself from ever interacting with them! Yay! My ex also abused me and I become obsessed with any women that I crush on. I love them more then myself, I fantasize life with them and then I self isolate because I'm pathetic. Point is! You don't cope! You just fantize and dive further into insanity like j have!
Also sorry if none of that makes sense I'm in the middle of a mental episode but hey! Don't worry about it man we just don't deserve love :)

 

[TheLastGreySky]

I know a lot of you will read this thread and roll your eyes, that I'm just another bitching "incel". Well to those people: fuck off

I'm serious. How do I cope with this? It's on my mind 247 and it's the reason behind my suicidality

1. That mindset is the only thing holding you back from finding a girlfriend.
2. If you expect a woman to change your world...
What are you gonna do for her? Why should she chose you when plenty of other guys are promising the exact same thing and EVEN if they are lying... They look more promising?

I ask this not to be mean, but to start a dialogue...

What you think a woman wants, is most likely NOT what a woman wants. There's layers, and if she isn't afraid to lose you, then you don't have the value she needs to feel safe with you. There's a lot of push pull dynamics in relationships and yes...
It's complicated... But there literally mofos with face tattoos getting harems and you're out here excluding yourself from the very game you don't even know that you can't avoid.

If you ask a hundred women out, and spent five minutes talking to each, it would only take one person to be your girlfriend. Now, naturally... you're so hyper fixed on the math that you're overwhelming yourself... What you're not understanding is this, it's not five minutes on a 100 women... It's a swipe and a "hey, I love that band" or "hey do you enjoy ___" copy and pasted 100 times. 30 minutes.

... But ... What are you gonna do when someone finally says yes? If you spend all your time idealizing a future with someone you don't even know yet... All you're doing is objectifying them and disrespecting yourself. When someone replies to you, just chill and talk with them. If you've had a couple of messages and you're not too far away, go get a coffee.

Y'all forget Gary Coleman had a wife and he was 2 and a half feet tall. Seriously... Stop bullying yourself.

 

[Dejected 55]

People talk about the "numbers game" like it is a good thing. I'm not shopping for a girlfriend. I shop for objects, things. I don't shop for people. If that is the only way people get relationships is by trying to get into relationships with 1000 people just to get to a couple... just which one of us is being desperate? It seems to me the people going after 1000 people are more desperate in their actions. But what do I know, right? I've never had a relationship so I must be wrong.

Well, if I'm wrong then I don't want to be right. Screw this world if those are the "right" way to live.

 

[milkteacrown]

I've posted elsewhere, all my sexual experiences took place from my ages 28-33 roughly and I am 55 now. I don't know the ages of the escorts I saw at the time. Pretty sure a couple of them were in their early 40s, and one or two might have been in their late 20s. Not exactly sure. But I got along with all of them. I never treated them like purchased "things." In fact, I'm not much of an initiator, so they pretty much had to initiate things, which probably was more comfortable for them I would imagine when having sex with strangers.

Anyway, it was "easier" in a way being with the escorts because they were there for the transaction and I knew what was going to happen, so there was no reason to be nervous. I was told by several of them, when conversation turned that way, that I was a nice man that lots of women would be happy to be with. But, then they were there to be nice to me for money. Again, not judging them or looking down on them. I'm just saying that since I actually was nice and was safe for them, they would want repeat business and I pretty much expected them to lie to me and I could never really believe if anything I said or did with them was really valued or appreciated sincerely.

There was no real connection, which is why I ultimately stopped seeing them. I realized once I had been able to have sex a few times that it really wasn't what I was looking for. I mean, it's great... but without the rest of the connection and relationship, it's a pretty empty experience to me... and I was never going to be able to have that true connection with someone only there for the money because it was her job to be there.

You never know how they feel, still. I don't feel any connection with my clients because I don't feel connections with anyone, but sex is an extremely intimate thing for a woman and it's impossible in most cases to have zero emotions about it. A man might be able to have "casual" sex, because I'm not a man and I don't know how they feel, but a woman, who is scrutinized for her sex life (especially if it is a job) and who is putting herself in danger and having to deeply trust anyone whom she has sex with, really cannot unless they just don't think deeply about that sort of thing in general. Escorts, who have to do this as a job, have to, or they'll be murdered. A very large percentage of us are. The fact that you were seen by escorts means you aren't blacklisted by anyone in your area at the time and that the women you saw truly did trust and like you to some degree.

Escorts can never be truly transactional. You either want to escape that job or you love it because of the connections you make. There is rarely an in-between.

People talk about the "numbers game" like it is a good thing. I'm not shopping for a girlfriend. I shop for objects, things. I don't shop for people. If that is the only way people get relationships is by trying to get into relationships with 1000 people just to get to a couple... just which one of us is being desperate? It seems to me the people going after 1000 people are more desperate in their actions. But what do I know, right? I've never had a relationship so I must be wrong.

Well, if I'm wrong then I don't want to be right. Screw this world if those are the "right" way to live.

I think you have the right perspective on this, as well. The numbers game makes dating and relationships into something seemingly dehumanizing. I'm a woman and generally seen as attractive, but I've had very few relationships myself, because connection is more important to me than desperately clinging to the idea of romance.
The relationships I've had have all begun with simple friendship that later developed into something more.

 

[Dejected 55]

You never know how they feel, still. I don't feel any connection with my clients because I don't feel connections with anyone, but sex is an extremely intimate thing for a woman and it's impossible in most cases to have zero emotions about it. A man might be able to have "casual" sex, because I'm not a man and I don't know how they feel, but a woman, who is scrutinized for her sex life (especially if it is a job) and who is putting herself in danger and having to deeply trust anyone whom she has sex with, really cannot unless they just don't think deeply about that sort of thing in general. Escorts, who have to do this as a job, have to, or they'll be murdered. A very large percentage of us are. The fact that you were seen by escorts means you aren't blacklisted by anyone in your area at the time and that the women you saw truly did trust and like you to some degree.

Escorts can never be truly transactional. You either want to escape that job or you love it because of the connections you make. There is rarely an in-between.

I think you have the right perspective on this, as well. The numbers game makes dating and relationships into something seemingly dehumanizing. I'm a woman and generally seen as attractive, but I've had very few relationships myself, because connection is more important to me than desperately clinging to the idea of romance.
The relationships I've had have all begun with simple friendship that later developed into something more.

I hope you didn't take any offense. I don't think you did, but I want to be sure. I liked all the women that I saw back when I saw escorts for that brief time. I just wasn't interested in them, I didn't know them, there was no real connection. What I learned in that process was that I did not like casual disconnected sex with anyone. I was not built for one-night stands or picking up women. Even if I had the looks and skillset to do it, I wouldn't want to do that. I had a couple of experiences with an escort where I just felt so empty immediately after that I went completely quite and I think maybe that bothered her at first and I tried to explain without insulting her, and that seemed to go okay... but honestly, for me seeing escorts just turned out to be a huge mistake. Not because of the women. Because of me.

I went into it because I had reached a point in my life where I was afraid I was never going to have anyone in my life and I wanted to at least experience sex. I also feared that the older I got without experience the worse off I was going to be if I ever did meet a woman who would have expectations of me that I couldn't meet due to lack of experience. Turns out the experience with the escorts didn't help me at all, I still have never had a relationship anyway, and I wish I had just remained a virgin.

All the escorts I saw were independent ones. They weren't working for anyone. So I at least knew they were doing it because they wanted to do it, not forced by someone else. But, it's true, they may only have "wanted" to do it because they felt they had less options to make a living. I honestly can't speak to why someone can do that kind of work. I'm certainly not judging. I couldn't do it myself though, if for no other reason than the emptiness involved was worse to me than just being alone. Being with someone and still being lonely is a far worse experience to me. I learned that.

I've only and always tried being friends first. I can talk to anyone, I'm not shy about talking to women. I've known lots of women that I had good conversation with. Sometimes I like one. If I do, then I'll express that by telling her or asking her out. They always say no, except for the recent one who just ignored my expression of interest and continued as we were as if she never heard what I said. That has been worse than outright rejection.

I'm rambling now.