The virus is after all humans, but you can choose to not fight back- some will, some won't. But to beat the virus a pretty high percentage of people will need to fight back. But the collective human race is at war with the virus, even though some members of the human race choose to not fight back.
Fine, I do not care. Call me a viral pacifist then. Ultimately, covid is not an existential threat to the human species, even if we do absolutely nothing. However, abandoning Enlightenment principles like bodily autonomy and the right to peacefully dissent IS an actual existential threat.
It is a strange thing that I started this thread asking for someone to tell me I was being reasonable,
but that the greatest comfort I have found here actually comes from being called unreasonable
because my 'principles' are absurd, and realizing that I am okay with that. I am not afraid.
but that the greatest comfort I have found here actually comes from being called unreasonable
because my 'principles' are absurd, and realizing that I am okay with that. I am not afraid.
Feeding Pigeons
Warlock
- Aug 5, 2021
- 776
oh ok fair enough. My bad. Thank you.
Theres a lot of cross-talk going on, I got confused.
Have you considered libertarianism? They arent Covid psychos, but they also agree with the left on many issues.
I agree with you here. The Covid nonsense has stolen nearly everything I had, either directly or indirectly. My job, my school, my friends, my girlfriend, my savings, and my respect for other people (who clearly dont respect me). The last time I can say I was happy was January 2020. I'm from NY, which had one of the strictest lockdowns and all of the mandates.
I'm almost at the point that I wish Covid was the deadly pandemic they're pretending it is. This country deserves it.
I agree with you here. The Covid nonsense has stolen nearly everything I had, either directly or indirectly. My job, my school, my friends, my girlfriend, my savings, and my respect for other people (who clearly dont respect me). The last time I can say I was happy was January 2020. I'm from NY, which had one of the strictest lockdowns and all of the mandates.
I'm almost at the point that I wish Covid was the deadly pandemic they're pretending it is. This country deserves it.
whatevs
Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
- Jan 15, 2022
- 2,914
I'm marvelous, just like you are, that's why we are both in this forum
Been there for some time now. I guess I can't blame Bill Gates for wanting people dead anymore. I'm on Bill's team now. Most people are too stupid and cowardly to get rehabilitated.
What can you do with people that leave masks on the street, or worse still, right in the trekking trails in the forests? There's no amount of education that could instill reason there, they're gone.
And these kind of people are the majority. Careless, conformist, hypocritical, posturing, addicted scum. The planet could be dying around them (as it supposedly is) and they wouldn't notice until 'someone respectable' tells them about it on their screens. But the message has to be repeated daily, for months, for years. This is how they beat the masses into a new narrative, otherwise they can't be fucked. They truly are cattle.
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With nearly a million dead in the U.S. alone in two years it's the fifth deadliest epidemic in recorded history, according to Wikipedia, and it looks to be one pace to pass the HIV/AIDS epidemic into fourth place in terms of the number of deaths. In terms of the percentage of the population it's a lot lower but in terms of total deaths it's right up there.
odradek
Mage
- Sep 16, 2021
- 557
You have to normalize for population. Population is exponentially increasing, and has been for the past 200 years. The fact that Covid isnt the largest pandemic in history, with a world populaton of 8 billion people, shows that its a joke. The median age of covid victims in the US is older than the average life expectancy. It's a danger to the morbidly obese and those over 80.
Nobody else
The Spanish Flu killed over 600,000 americans. Adjusted for population, thats over 2 million americans today. That was also back when the average life expectancy was around 60, so there were far less old people. There was also relatively little obesity and heart disease back then. That was a real pandemic. Covid, if it had occurred back then, wouldnt have even landed on the radar. It would have been treated for what it is. A COLD.
As modern medicine advances, and average life expectancy approaches 100, everything will become a pandemic. In a nation full of 90 year olds, the sniffles could wipe out millions. Are we going to keep lowering the bar for what constitutes a "deadly disease"? The only metric worth judging a disease by is how it affects the young, and the healthy.
This is all very true. Something has gone wrong with our collective ability to measure how serious crises are. An earlier post in the thread compared the number of covid dead to WW2. The implication being that the covid crisis is of similar historical importance. That idea is just bizarre.
WW2 saw the violent deaths of tens of millions in the prime of youth. Whole cities, whole national economies were flattened to nothing more than rubble. The scale of destruction is not even remotely the same. WW2 reshaped the world. A decade from now, covid will only be remembered as a cautionary footnote because the lockdowns were a panicked and foolish policy. And yet, people make this weird argument that doing your part to fight the "war against covid" is comparable to supporting the war against fascism. This is nonsensical.
I think we have a deep need to convince ourselves that our "sacrifices" to fight covid make us every bit as heroic as the Greatest Generation. I think this started as well intentioned rhetoric to convince the reluctant to comply but it's morphed in a kind of mass self-validation delusion.
Cathy Ames
Cautionary Tale
- Mar 11, 2022
- 2,105
Okay, but if "bodily autonomy" and the right to peacefully dissent are important to you then you do not belong in either party, quite frankly. This is a really odd little bit of cognitive dissonance you are showing. Wearing a mask = eek! my bodily autonomy! Making all abortion illegal with no exception for incest or rape = hey! no big deal! let's force women to give birth when they don't want to! yee haw!
Yes, this troubles me greatly. The Republican opposition to mandates is not well rooted in the bodily autonomy argument. I did say I hate conservative politics. It remains to be seen if I will be able to find any candidate who meets the test on both these questions, but the primary field is huge. I don't know what I will do if there is no one, especially in the general election. The lesser evil may be quite evil indeed.
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Cathy Ames
Cautionary Tale
- Mar 11, 2022
- 2,105
Okay, at least you see it.
This one thing is apparently your key issue. I think it is a bad idea to seek external validation for your decision to vote Republican. You won't get validation from Democrats, and do you really want the validation from Republicans? If it is bothering you (feels wrong), then keep exploring it... maybe it's not really the right choice after all. That's just my opinion. I tried to stay out of it, but in the end I couldn't. Good luck.
I agree. But, validation is not really what I'm looking for here. I just don't care that much what other people's opinion of me is.
My fears have to do with discovering that other people's minds don't work the way I thought. I had assumed the people around me had ethics that were broadly the same as mine. This is just clearly not the case. I find compelling other people to make sacrifices to keep myself safer to be cowardly, disgusting, contemptible. But, most of the respondents on this thread see the making of sacrifices to create public safety as noble and civically virtuous, even if the sacrifices are involuntary.
But, if I so mistaken about the ethical principles that drive people how can I trust they won't do horrible things. History is full of people doing the most unimaginable things in the earnest belief they were being virtuous. Earnestness, good intention, and obedience to orthodoxy are a very explosive combination.
What I want is clear evidence that the world contains people who share my views about what is virtuous: right, true, good and beautiful.
Not to validate my views, I'm quite certain of my views (actually too certain, to the point of narcissism even.) I want this evidence of principles so I'll know that other people have worth at all.
The paradox, of course, is that requiring others to demonstrate that they think the way I do IS orthodoxy, the very fault I am accusing them of.
The whole situation is neurotic to the core.
My phobia about the masks is because I see them as a symbol of abandoning the very idea of individual ethics.
whatevs
Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
- Jan 15, 2022
- 2,914
No. A decade from now, if all goes according to plan, 2020's COVID will be repeated year after in year in school books as a member of a select list of memorable catastrophes, alongside the likes of the Holocaust. I'm sorry to have to say this, but you are still quite naive/defensively optimistic if you think what we are experiencing now is a transient psychosis...
No, our culture/civilization IS the psychosis, as it is based on denial and escapism and its illness is escalating every year in an exponential fashion. The lies, exaggerations and omissions you feel alienated by at this moment will be dwarfed by it's predecessors in the near future.
As per your struggles with ethics, I think I can elucidate a point I believe you are not giving enough weight. Regardless of one's propensity to libertarianism or collectivism, there a breaking point where everyone agrees on COMPULSION. For example, nobody is outraged at the illegality of nudity, or the compulsion to be clothed, otherwise facing violence, confinement and/or fines.
When it comes to a deadly and highly transmissible illness, most people would react exactly the same way than they do with nudity, if not with more support, tacit or vocal. We would all agree with compulsory confinement, compulsory vaccination/treatment/prevention, compulsory behaviour etc. After all, it's about survival, the life and death of tens of millions of people, perhaps hundreds. So where's actually the issue?
Simple! Some of us do NOT see a deadly, highly transmissible pandemic, nor we trust the scientists, politicians and media that are intent on pushing on the public a bargain in which safety is purchased in exchange of formerly untouchable freedoms and rights.
So it's an issue of: disbelief and distrust, not of ethics. You yourself have stated that you never saw as justified the hysteria with COVID, which confirms to me that if you HAD seen a deadly pandemic unfold you wouldn't be talking about it, you would just be protecting yourself and accepting the measures to contain the virus.
It IS ethical to use compulsion and the override of individual freedom to prevent a large number of deaths, the issue here is that the danger is a mock-up used to justify the compulsion, with the compulsion itself being accepted as a necessary evil what was sought after with the whole crisis from the start. You create a problem for a solution that it's already devised. This solution constitutes a fundamental change in society that would have never been accepted by the masses otherwise.
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Of all the posts in this thread, your's are the one's that inspire the least fear in me. I've no doubt of your principles or your ethics.
You are OK, sir.
But, I do not share your pessimism. This crisis is transient. The much greater crises of war, poverty, ignorance & environmental catastrophe looming on the horizon will ultimately be just as transient. The future that will grow from the seed of promise in this civilization is more inevitable than the dawn, and will shine brighter than the sun.
People are weak, worthless, selfish, narcisistic shits that cannot be trusted. Trying to rally us by appealing to conscience or our inner impusle to virtue is totally pointless. But the abstractions of truth and beauty that some very few do see, even if unclearly, and do care about, even if imperfectly, are utterly unconquerable.
I don't think I agree on either of these points.
Violence against, confinement, and/or fines of the merely naked is outrageous. Finding other people who think so wouldn't be that hard.
I've already said that the anti-covid policies would have been unethical even if covid was much, much more dangerous that it is.
Would compulsory mask wearing be justified if covid really was the zombie plague from World War Z or the T-virus from Resident Evil?
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know, but surely I don't have to be able answer that to make correct choices on the actual questions of covid.
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Cathy Ames
Cautionary Tale
- Mar 11, 2022
- 2,105
I quoted the post where you actually used the word validation and said you were looking for it? Changed your mind, did you? And you also said this.
This looks like you're looking for some kind of external approval, but I guess not? These are just things you said to get the conversation started or something like that.
I won't keep responding, but I will point out another inconsistency in your thinking. It appears that you consider the mask or public health related "witch hunts" part of your line in the sand. So because the line has been crossed (in an emergency) you are switching to the party that--as part of the "business as usual"--is having what amount to anti-LGBT witch hunts and is passing laws to turn private citizens into vigilantes (kinda like a witch hunt, no?). This makes no sense whatsoever from a logical standpoint, and it is difficult for me to see how this aligns with a person's values--like what values would they actually BE? It looks like, "well if it affects ME, then by definition it is wrong" might be the highest value, and all these other words about "enlightenment" and such are the things you are telling yourself to justify it and make it okay because (as a previous Democrat) you don't want to see yourself that way. I mean, most people don't want to see themselves that way. That's normal.
whatevs
Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
- Jan 15, 2022
- 2,914
So you are a hard libertarian. No problems with that, but it's certainly much less common than those of us that oppose the COVID tyranny just because we mostly don't believe that the deadly pandemic situation is/was real.
You would certainly have great difficulty finding people that disagree with compulsory clothing. It's part of the sexual taboo of our species (which was selected for evolutionarily) and probably has an hygienic reason as well.
Civilization includes compulsion, that was the point I tried to make. Whether the obligations society impose on us are justified or not is what is most debated in terms of COVID, not really whether society can oblige people or not, that is implicit within a civilized context.
I personally like minimal collectivism and compulsion but it's obvious that society needs some, especially during war or a catastrophe. Obviously the social engineers behind COVID took advantage of this accepted fact to impose a new way of governing society where individual freedom isn't important.
I admit, I was the first to use the word validation. But it's tool, not a goal. As I've already explained, I'm too narcissistic to really care what other people think of me, but I do need to see that they agree with me because it permits me to see THEM as worthy.
I like to think of myself as principled. I may be deluded about that. It's quite likely, I will fail to adhere to my "principles" if I am ever in serious risk. The mask thing isn't a good test of this. I've never held to the principle that other people's lives were worth protecting anyway. I am not deluded about whether or not I am a kind or compassionate person. I ain't. I am as sociopathic as they come.
I admit the Republican position on homosexual rights is wrong. As I have admitted the Republican position on abortion is wrong.
Yes, I care about covid policy because has affected me personally. I do not care as much about homosexual rights or reproductive rights as much because those issues have not affected me.
I did not start this thread to argue for the Republican agenda. I started it to try and redeem my faith in humanity, not to improve my opinion of myself. That's pointless. Seeing people wear masks does not improve my opinion of people, I am quite blind to the intended virtue signaling. Maybe, it's the sociopathy. Yeah, come to think of it, yeah, its very likely the sociopathy....
Cathy Ames
Cautionary Tale
- Mar 11, 2022
- 2,105
Okay.
I didn't read carefully enough, I'm afraid. My apologies.
Your overall purpose was, "What I want is clear evidence that the world contains people who share my views about what is virtuous: right, true, good and beautiful. Not to validate my views, I'm quite certain of my views (actually too certain, to the point of narcissism even.) I want this evidence of principles so I'll know that other people have worth at all."
I consider seeking out people who share one's views to (at least sort of) be a way of validating the views: hey other people think like I do! But that's not what you're talking about. The important thing to you is to find people who think the way you do in order to prove or show that people (other than you) have worth. I definitely don't want to participate in a conversation that involves proving that other people have worth. My impression/realization that a large portion of society doesn't think other people have worth is a thing that contributes to my suicidality, in fact. If you want to take a side quest to find a bunch of people who don't think other people have worth, you can do that quite easily.
Again. I apologize for not reading carefully enough and misunderstanding.
I'm going to call you extremely fucking stupid because it's the most charitable thing one can possibly say about you. The alternative is that you are just fine with knowingly killing disabled people.
The alternative is true. OP has said quite clearly that they're weak, selfish and narcissistic. They've also admit to several other character flaws an being deluded but expecr others to fall into their values so that they can consider them worthy.
I will concede that most of hunanity appear to fit at least the first few of those flaws and I have little love for the masses. Particularly the social media obsessed and influenced. It's not really a concession for me at all. The problem i see here is that those that are 'aflicted' with these ill human flaws are going to assume everyone is thst way. Those that aren't (and they do exist) are going to try to appeal to the good nature in others as we are all limited by what we ourselves experience and observe and ultimately know.
Just from a point of logic, you can't consider people unworthy when you carry so many character flaws yourself.
The vaccines... People have the right. They should have the right, to choice. That already exists.
Masks, the choice exists. You don't have to wear a mask. However, doing so is for the sake of those around you. You never know, some of them might be the ones that share your value. Either way, you can breath in a mask. No licences needed. Personally I wear a mask because I'm not entirely selfish. I respect your right to choose but I don't respect you for displaying selfishness when expecting to enter a public space without one and be respected for doing so.
I don't respect people that don't warrant respect in their actions or strength of character. Though this is what you ask of us. Which you will no doubt deny in the next breath.
Our leaders are like you and this is why we're in such a mess. You rebel against yourself and are confused to the extreme. It's not unreasonable to say, selectively so. I am under no illusions where the government/world leaders are concerned. I know they have ill agendas and we're not privy to many of them. However just because this is teue doesn't mean that all conspiracies get to pass go and collect $200. Did the pandemic play into their hands. Yes, I'd say in some cases it did. They will always seek to monopolise and capitalise. Does this mean it never happened or isn't a significant threat to the health of some people in our communities, absolutely not. I say this with personal experience. You of course have the right to choose not to believe or even consider the benefit of that experience however I have the right (without the licences from anyone else) to express my disdain for those like you that choose ignorance and delusion or 'alternative' and convienient truths.
Expecting nobody to challenge your selfish, weak narcissistic tendencies is in itself selfish and delusional. It's people like you that burned witches.
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Ah. So much hostility, I must have said something relevant.
Out of bounds. I am NOT fine with knowingly killing disabled people. I have never done, or intended to do that.
I live in a world where lots of people die. I accept this is true. It does not mean I "fine" with it. It also does not mean I am obligated to do everything possible to prevent death. I could give my house up to be a shelter for homeless refugees, and perhaps thus save lives. I have not done so. This does not make me a monster, it makes me a person who has a home. This is the way of the world. Neither you, nor I, nor all-of-us-working-together-for-a-better-world is going to change that.
I do want to show, to myself at least, that other people have worth. Indeed, it may be my greatest desire. It is a struggle, and I think a worthy one. I do have occasional success.
I am sorry if the existence of selfish people bothers you. Selfish people exit. Worthless people exist. T/W: I have both defects in spades.
I do not wish to seek out the misanthropic. I want to find people who believe that respect for the right of other people to make genuiely different choices is more important than their own personal safety. It is not easy.
If we stipulate choice exists, the discussion is over. Or at least my interest in the political dimension of it. If there are no candidates supporting mandates, then I need not change political parties to find a candidate who opposes mandates. We can discuss the ethical implications of the mandates that don't exist and weren't proposed if you like, but what's the point? Whatever you want, but I don't think this describes the world we live.
Out of bounds. I am NOT fine with knowingly killing disabled people. I have never done, or intended to do that.
I live in a world where lots of people die. I accept this is true. It does not mean I "fine" with it. It also does not mean I am obligated to do everything possible to prevent death. I could give my house up to be a shelter for homeless refugees, and perhaps thus save lives. I have not done so. This does not make me a monster, it makes me a person who has a home. This is the way of the world. Neither you, nor I, nor all-of-us-working-together-for-a-better-world is going to change that.
I do want to show, to myself at least, that other people have worth. Indeed, it may be my greatest desire. It is a struggle, and I think a worthy one. I do have occasional success.
I am sorry if the existence of selfish people bothers you. Selfish people exit. Worthless people exist. T/W: I have both defects in spades.
I do not wish to seek out the misanthropic. I want to find people who believe that respect for the right of other people to make genuiely different choices is more important than their own personal safety. It is not easy.
This is just false. The opposite is true. Surely, a man who knows himself to be a dishonest assumes everyone else is dishonest as well.
If we stipulate choice exists, the discussion is over. Or at least my interest in the political dimension of it. If there are no candidates supporting mandates, then I need not change political parties to find a candidate who opposes mandates. We can discuss the ethical implications of the mandates that don't exist and weren't proposed if you like, but what's the point? Whatever you want, but I don't think this describes the world we live.
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@achilles you made a mistake by registering republican. One of the best things to do is register for the party you oppose and vote for the worst candidate in the primaries. This gives your preferred party the best chance of winning.
But if you live in a blue state, move to a red state - that's the only change you'll effect as an individual.
Cathy Ames
Cautionary Tale
- Mar 11, 2022
- 2,105
Um... that's not what I said. Of course selfish people exist. No shit, Sherlock.
I'm putting this thread on ignore now. I thought I had already done that, but I guess not.
No, choice did not exist. The law in my state required people to wear masks. This was true in many, many jurisdictions and affected hundreds of millions of people for months.
You are gaslighting. I know the pandemic happened. I was there.
Your loading the word 'respect' in odd ways. Either I have the right or I don't. I do not care much about your opinion of my character.
I do not want people praise me for my strength of character.
Well, I certainly think you should have your own beliefs about why the world broken. I, honestly, wish you luck in fixing it.
The last line is kind of just a wild swing and a miss. I don't mind being challenged.
-------------
I wrote, "I am sorry if the existence of selfish people bothers you."
You wrote -
Your line was -
I am sorry if I've mis-characterized or mis-understood you. I am not trying to win a game of semantic hair splitting. Although, I can understand why you might come to be frustrated and feel that way. I really am trying to be as straight-forward and candid as possible. The issues at stake: philosophical, political, and psychological are all very complex. I am doing the best I can.
I believe we all have some deep need to believe that everything is actually very simple. If we were all just a little more kind-hearted, well-intended, dutiful and law abiding everything wrong in the world could be easily fixed. The hard part is just agreeing to work together. But, none of that is true. The world is complicated. Life's problems are complicated. Consensus is often impossible, and practicable solutions are often very imperfect.
If you are leaving, thank you for your contributions. Talking with you has been helpful to me.
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We are a victim of our own prosperity, and it will only get worse. As modern medicine improves, and people get older, and the world gets safer, our risk tolerance will further decrease. Once self driving AI cars take over, nobody will die in car accidents any more. People will take MRNA vaccines aimed towards every strain of flu and all colds. One day they'll cure cancer, and be able to grow hearts for transplants in labs. Risks we view as minor today will become major.
In the 1800s, nobody cared about cancer or heart disease, because there were far more deadly diseases more likely to kill you. If you had 5 children, maybe one or two would reach adulthood. Compare that to today, and our response to this pandemic seems psychotic. It was.
I agree with you. Where will it end? I am grateful for modern medicine, and the miracles it brings. But we need to understand that our current perception of risk isnt natural, and that we run the risk of ruining our immune capabilities if we rely on modern medicine as a crutch for every inconvencience.
It's healthy to get sick. It's natural to get sick
Apathy79
Arcanist
- Oct 13, 2019
- 489
Fwiw I think you made a sensible decision.
It doesn't have to be for life. Join people like me in voting the way that feels right at the moment. Re-assess next time. Its the best way to approach the whole sphere. And you'll be surprised how few people do it.
It doesn't have to be for life. Join people like me in voting the way that feels right at the moment. Re-assess next time. Its the best way to approach the whole sphere. And you'll be surprised how few people do it.
We've survived, the world moves on. The mandates are ending. Covid was inconsequential. This outcome was never in doubt.
But we move on with the knowledge that, given even the slightest risk, almost everyone will act out of fear, demand conformity, and recognize no limit to the right to do so.
That is the lasting scar, and almost no one has even noticed.
But we move on with the knowledge that, given even the slightest risk, almost everyone will act out of fear, demand conformity, and recognize no limit to the right to do so.
That is the lasting scar, and almost no one has even noticed.
--------------------------
An unspeakable level of evil. And already no one even remembers. Still thinking of killing myself.
Will anyone understand?
An unspeakable level of evil. And already no one even remembers. Still thinking of killing myself.
Will anyone understand?
