Help! I've made difficult political decision.

[Feeding Pigeons]

Well over time it became clear that touching things that other people touch is an extremely unlikely route of transmission, so that's why attempts to deal with this concern have largely gone away (though not completely- there are still a lot of dumb rules based on touych because it's very difficult to get the institutions for 3200 million plus people to keep changing direction as we learn more about the virus). The surface that is touched is also a factor- cardboard and paper are even less likely routes of transmission. But really touch overall is so unlikely as a means of transmission.

The mailmen make the deliveries
EDIT: what I mean by that is that they still walk into apartments where many people live, they're touching metal mailboxes, just stop it.

 

[_Seeking]

I cannot even seek professional psychiatric help at this time because there is no way to do so without having to go into a setting that would require me to wear one.

Many doctors are doing Telehealth. I have never met my psychiatrist in person, it has always been through Telehealth. All you have to do is look.

FWIW, you are not likely to die of covid, even if you get it, even if you are very elderly, even if you are obese, even if you are immune compromised, even if you are unvaccinated, even if you are all of the above. Most people who get the disease survive. This is true even for the most vulnerable of subgroups.

You are probably going to be OK.

You are leaving out all the people that get long covid. It seems to me like you have an agenda.

 

[odradek]

Vaccine mandates have existed for centuries. I guess the authoritarianism in the US dates back to the the 19th century. Sorry this is the mandate that pushed you to the edge, it does seem somewhat dubious tho. It's unfortunate I guess. Nightmares of jumping is tough, can really ruin an agenda.

 

[Someone123]

The mailmen make the deliveries
EDIT: what I mean by that is that they still walk into apartments where many people live, they're touching metal mailboxes, just stop it.

Touching any surface is extremely low for risk of transmission, and quickl;y walking past someone is very low risk as well- or just being there for a minute. When you spend five to ten minutes near someone in a conversation or in a choir or in an audience is when there is higher risk.

You are leaving out all the people that get long covid. It seems to me like you have an agenda.

Long covid is a severe risk as well, I'd definitely rather pass away rather than have a bad case of long covid, even if I wasn't already close to ctb.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Touching any surface is extremely low for risk of transmission, and quickl;y walking past someone is very low risk as well- or just being there for a minute. When you spend five to ten minutes near someone in a conversation or in a choir or in an audience is when there is higher risk.

I agree with the first part, deliveries are fine and for the most part don't run into many people.
As for the other part, idk I tend to hold my breath when I walk by people just in case XD

 

[Someone123]

Vaccine mandates have existed for centuries. I guess the authoritarianism in the US dates back to the the 19th century. Sorry this is the mandate that pushed you to the edge, it does seem somewhat dubious tho. It's unfortunate I guess. Nightmares of jumping is tough, can really ruin an agenda.

Some vaccines have been great successes, such as the polio vaccine, though the first rollout out of it went badly due to shortcuts people took in manufacturing. The science supporting Covid vaccines is solid, but for other vaccines it is dubius. I personally believe that the quick rise in the number of vaccines is behind the rise in autism, but that 's a whole 'nother can of worms.

I agree with the first part, deliveries are fine and for the most part don't run into many people.
As for the other part, idk I tend to hold my breath when I walk by people just in case XD

The holding your breath part can pay off if they do a big sneeze right by you for sure, and you never know when that's coming- and it might help otherwise, too, no one knows for sure- it doesn't hurt to do this.

 

[Life_and_Death]

if they do a big sneeze right by you for sure

EEWWW!! you don't want to breath that in even without covid

 

[Smart No More]

It's your right to vote for whoever you want. Seeking approval flies in the face of the values you hold so dear. Do what you're going to do. I don't necessarily agree with it but that's not your concern. I mean is it really going to change your mind?! Clearly not. Not to play down yourfear. Just trying to highlight the contradiction in it for you.

As far as mask wearing, it does little for the user. It's intended to stop you spreading your germs to others. This is why it's important. It's quite selfish ro look at it as a right though from what I've seem it's a right that's respected where I live. By myself included. It doesn't stop me foeming my opinions based on it though. If people choose not to wear a mask around me I avoid them as best I can but if I can't I do feel a certain disdain for them because I'm there wearing a (uncomfortable and health issue flairing) mask for their sake and they couldn't give a shit about potentially spreading covid my way. I don't voice it. It's never going to change their mind. I just see and observe them for the self serving assholes most of them are. Either that or they're utterly oblivious or ignorant to reason we're wearing masks in the first place.

 

[achilles]

You are leaving out all the people that get long covid. It seems to me like you have an agenda.

My purpose in stating, truthfully, that most people survive covid was to be comforting, not condescending.
Most people survive covid. Among otherwise healthy people, survival is the overwhelmingly likely outcome.
Long covid is also rare. Most people who get covid do not show symptoms of long covid.

My agenda is a mater of ethical philosophy. I want to live in a world where the dominant belief is that everyone has a presumptive right to breath, freely, in public, unmasked, and without any kind of government permit. And that this right is held sacred, even if the community decides those breathing are committing a potentially dangerous heresy by doing so.

It seems so strange to me that this is a contentious proposition. Personal safety is not worth sacrificing this principle. I would literally rather die, than live in a world where no one gets this. That is the point of this whole thread.

It's yoyr right to vote foe whoever you want. Seeking approval flies in thw face of the values you hold so dear. Do what you're going to do. I don't agree with it but that's not youe concern. I mean is it really going to change your mind.

I will do what I must. I will do what I can. I admit my desire to be loved for my heretical belief is foolish.

 

[Smart No More]

The reason this is such a contentious issue is because it splits the people that care for themselves ahead of others from those that think of others and are happy to make relatively small concessions to that effect. It will always be polarising. That only seems to confuse those that don't want to wear a mask. Funny that eh?

It doesn't take much for the average person to just put on a mask in public scenarios. If it creates significant anxiety then maybe that's something that warrants an exemption but you have respect the other side of that coin where mask wearers would prefer not to be around you due to their reasonable anxiety surrounding catching and spreading illness to others. Vulnerable loved ones for example. We have the right to breath fresh air too. Not your potentially covid infected exhalation. It goes both ways. We can respect one another accordingly. Politics have nothing to do with it. That is to say its not a legal issue where I'm from. Maybe it is where you are. That's a little different but as I say, the rules apply to the average citizen. If you happen to have unnatural anxiety surrounding maskwearing that's the issue at the front of this and probably qualifies for medical exemption. Speak with a doctor not a politician. Just don't forget to give your sick or elderly loved ones a big juicy kiss after you've been mingling among the non mask wearing masses. If they die they die. At least you were breathing freely.

 

[Someone123]

My purpose in stating, truthfully, that most people survive covid was to be comforting, not condescending.
Most people survive covid. Among otherwise healthy people, survival is the overwhelmingly likely outcome.
Long covid is also rare. Most people who get covid do not show symptoms of long covid.

My agenda is a mater of ethical philosophy. I want to live in a world where the dominant belief is that everyone has a presumptive right to breath, freely, in public, unmasked, and without any kind of government permit. And that this right is held sacred, even if the community decides those breathing are committing a potentially dangerous heresy by doing so.

It seems so strange to me that this is a contentious proposition. Personal safety is not worth sacrificing this principle. I would literally rather die, than live in a world where no one gets this. That is the point of this whole thread.


I will do what I must. I will do what I can. I admit my desire to be loved for my heretical belief is foolish.

Estimates of people with long covid vary widely, from 8 to 23 million, so it's really not rare. Many, many people have lost their ability to work and much of their ability to function due to this. Many, many people have lkost their sense of taste and smell, many have lost limbs, etc.

As far as survival, if 99% survive, which is the approximate rate among the unvaccinated, and 1% die, that would mean over 3 million dying in the u,s- we are close to1 million lost in the past two years in the u.s.- soon we will be there. 500,000 deaths per year is staggering- that's more people than the u.s. lost in all of ww2 (405,399) in each of the past two years. Personal safety is worth the effort to fight this and to pull for the whole team even if in causes some minor inconveniences for some people. Individuals making some sacrifices for the benefit of all is worth doing to fight this war- people made many more sacrifices to fight ww2.

 

[_Seeking]

My purpose in stating, truthfully, that most people survive covid was to be comforting, not condescending.
Most people survive covid. Among otherwise healthy people, survival is the overwhelmingly likely outcome.
Long covid is also rare. Most people who get covid do not show symptoms of long covid.

My agenda is a mater of ethical philosophy. I want to live in a world where the dominant belief is that everyone has a presumptive right to breath, freely, in public, unmasked, and without any kind of government permit. And that this right is held sacred, even if the community decides those breathing are committing a potentially dangerous heresy by doing so.

It seems so strange to me that this is a contentious proposition. Personal safety is not worth sacrificing this principle. I would literally rather die, than live in a world where no one gets this. That is the point of this whole thread.

But you are posting in a suicide forum where people here would not be too sad to die. Why would telling them they're going to survive be comforting? It's not the dying, it's the increase in suffering. I had long covid for 6 months, it made my health situation worse, and it is not rare at all.

You are posting a number of fallacies which I find does not align with your "ethical" agenda. No one is saying you aren't allowed to breathe, what the hell.

 

[Smart No More]

As for the witch burning analogy, it's flawed. Nobody is talking about anything akin to burning anyone and I'm sure if witches were a thing now and perceived as dangerous it would be a case of banning witching. Not burning them. Sensationalism will garner unsupportive replies. Putting yourself (as a personwith high anxiety surrounding mask wearing) amongst the masses is unrepresentative of them. Not everyone feels that way even if they're not sold on mask wearing. For most it's a minor inconveinience. It's problematic for me, fwiw, but I chose to wear one. Just pointing that out for context. I empathise with those that find it problematic. My take on that is, is it a discomfort that outweighs the potential effects of passing on a virus to someone/multiple people that may or may not experience serious potentially life threatening illness as a result? Maybe I could argue that the majority will survive. I guess with that I'm saying tough shit to those that don't. I think that warrants an accusation of selective ignorance. So my choice is made based on that. If your anxiety is so bad that it outweighs that then call a doctor. They speak over the phone. Most won't meet face to face without a triage call.

I'm already kicking myself for posting im this thread as I'm already aware of the futility of attempting to reason with people that don't want to hear it. I'm also unwell and have limited capcity for debate and the ensuing arguments based often on symantics or arguing both sides of the same coin for the sake of ego or whatever. I should know better. That's on me. It's likely you'll not receive a rebutle from me if anyone wants to post in direct opposition to my post. I respect your right to do so and will most likely leave you to have the final word. Just felt the need to air my take on this as its a bone of contention for me, having had a nasty case of long covid myself and seeing people die in my community and circle of friends and family.

Regarding the way lockdowns were handled I agree it was piss poor. On various levels. They've done little to change things really as they weren't applied objectively due to various political self serving interests in parliaments around the world. Granted its a bit harsh and unjust to be entirely expectant of getting it 100% right in the face of the unknown but it could have been done much much better even without the benefit of hindsight. I'm just saying I'm not a staunch believer in either side of the fence. Neither have it in check in my view. Both have valid arguments in areas. That tends to be the case in all walks of life....... Everything on individual merit!

 

[Someone123]

One piece of good Covid news is that there is not much risk of transmitting Covid by farting- unless a person is walking around without pants or underwear.

 

[achilles]

As for the witch burning analogy, it's flawed. Nobody is talking about anyone and I'm sure if witches were a thing now and perceived as dangerous it would be a case of banning witching. Not burning them. Sensationalism will garner unsupportive replies. Putting yourself (as a personwith high anxiety surrounding mask wearing) amongst the masses is unrepresentative of them. Not everyone feels that way even if they're not sold on mask wearing. For most it's a minor inconveinience...

Again, the fear of witch burning is not a rhetorical device, it is the main issue, not covid. Nothing in the last two years leads me to believe for one second the society would merely ban witches. It didn't before, and nothing has changed, as far as I can see. I do not believe you, and given the stakes, I cannot, and will not trust you are right on this.

The other thing about your reply through is that you immediately frame the problem as being about my mask anxiety. The problem isn't my anxiety, it's about my rights. This is not a minor inconvenience. The anxiety others feel over covid does not cancel my right to breath without a license, even if they are correct about how dangerous covid is, even if it were much, much more dangerous than it appears to be.

 

[Someone123]

The other thing about your reply through is that you immediately frame the problem as being about my mask anxiety. The problem isn't my anxiety, it's about my rights. This is not a minor inconvenience.

We are fighting a war against Covid, a war in which our losses exceed the losses of world war II by more than double. IN order to win this war Americans banded togther and made the following sacrifices:

"The OPA rationed automobiles, tires, gasoline, fuel oil, coal, firewood, nylon, silk, and shoes. Americans used their ration cards and stamps to take their meager share of household staples including meat, dairy, coffee, dried fruits, jams, jellies, lard, shortening, and oils."

A large percentage of the population went hungry much of the time so that resources could be diverted to winning this war.

The sacrifices were made by individuals for the benefit of the common good. In our current war against Covid people should be willing to make individual sacrifices for the benefit of the common good. Wearing a mask is a tiny, tiny sacrifice for the common good compared to sacrifices the whole country made for wwii. People who consider wearing a mask to be a great sacrifice, too great of a sacrifice for the common good, are either very weak or very selfish or both.

 

[achilles]

But you are posting in a suicide forum where people here would not be too sad to die. Why would telling them they're going to survive be comforting? It's not the dying, it's the increase in suffering. I had long covid for 6 months, it made my health situation worse, and it is not rare at all.

You are posting a number of fallacies which I find does not align with your "ethical" agenda. No one is saying you aren't allowed to breathe, what the hell.

If telling someone they are likely to survive a danger they fear is not comforting I am at a loss. I apologize. I am not sure what to say instead in that case.

I do not think I have been inconsistent, although the questions at stake here are difficult.

Perhaps, no one is saying I am not allowed to breathe, but it is certainly the case that most are saying I am not permitted to breath in the manner that I had deemed a sacred right, which for almost all of human existence has been not been criminal in any way whatsoever. If society decides it can criminalize my breathing because the society decides it is dangerous, there is literally nothing to stop that society from deciding it would be safer if I did not breath at all, because it would, in fact, actually be safer if it did decide that.

This is not a small point. If you had asked me five years ago if the pandemic restrictions were even possible I would have said no, of course not. The normal processes of democracy, rule of law, due process, and the basic ethics of respect for other people's autonomy would have made it impossible. But then, wamm-o, when the shit hit the fan, none of the those principles mattered in the slightest to anyone I know, and I live in a very, very liberal enclave.

When you discover that every principle you thought made society function doesn't mean shit, it's terrifying.

 

[achilles]

People who consider wearing a mask to be a great sacrifice, too great of a sacrifice for the common good, are either very weak or very selfish or both.

I am both very selfish and very weak. The question here is what will you do to me when I tell you I am not sympathetic to your side in your war?

 

[Smart No More]

Again, the fear of witch burning is not a rhetorical device, it is the main issue, not covid. Nothing in the last two years leads me to believe for one second the society would merely ban witches. It didn't before, and nothing has changed, as far as I can see. I do not believe you, and given the stakes, I cannot, and will not trust you are right on this.

The other thing about your reply through is that you immediately frame the problem as being about my mask anxiety. The problem isn't my anxiety, it's about my rights. This is not a minor inconvenience. The anxiety others feel over covid does not cancel my right to breath without a license, even if they are correct about how dangerous covid is, even if it were much, much more dangerous than it appears to be.

The fact you really believe publicly, government mandated burning would fly in this day and age says I'm never going to get through with logic, reason or common sense.

If you're seriously comparing public burnings to your rights to/not to wear a mask in public you're delusional and ahould seek help.

I'm not sure if I believe you're not trolling but giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

You say your concerns around your right to not wear your mask are triggered by your anxieties and nightmares surrounding it. You can't flit from one to the other if you're going to site them that way as they're clearly linked by your say so and one justifies the other. I acknowledged on this basis that for you (unlike the masses) it's not a minor conveinience and you probably qualify for medical exemption on those terms. That is your right, right? Turning it into more than it is by politicizing it is ilogical becuae the truth is that it is only a minor inconvenience for most and your indivudual circumstances are separate to theirs.

Perhaps more significantly, nobody is trying to impose a liscence to breath on you. You can breath with or without a mask. But go on, tell me about your anxiety that isn't the problem.

I'll reiterate on the point you apparently came here for.... Your right is to vote however you like. You don't have to justify that to anyone. You don't have to tell anyone. Regardless of who you vote for you may still find yourself steuggling with social pressure to wear a mask so as I said, speak with a doctor as you hinted at being unable to do about the problem that isn't the problem.

Looking for people to agree with how you vote is flying in the face of your right to do so of your own volition, however you see fit. If you need confirmation and acceptance then it suggest you may not be certain yourself. That said, it's youe right to confir too so go ahead. You can't assume everyone will agree though and when they don't you can't accuse them of being on some kind of witch hunt. You opened up the conversation. It's apparent however that you're not open to the actual results of doing so. In your selwctive logic, the odd few agreeing with you are right and therefore your selective belief is inforced. This negates the whole point of a conversation. If you only want people to agree with you it's clear you came here for a anti mask circle jerk in order to directly reinforce something you appear to be certainly uncertainly certain about.

I'm sure you'll be back to pick it apart and selectively insert word or opinions into my mouth and squirm your agenda into some kind rhetoric aided focus. Guess what, that's your right. Have at it. I'll be taking my leave from this conversation now. Having said what is my right also to say.

 

[achilles]

Ask you nicely to wear a mask.

I absolutely refuse, kill me instead.

You did say you might permit me a medical (presumably psychiatric) exemption.
Hallelujah, runnin' to you. Close your eyes and count to ten. I win, no further discussion required.
Um... does the medical exemption apply to the witchcraft as well?

 

[Smart No More]

I absolutely refuse, kill me instead.

You did say you might permit me a medical (presumably psychiatric) exemption.
Hallelujah, runnin' to you. Close your eyes and count to ten. I win, no further discussion required.

Exactly. No need to make it political. Speak with a doctor about your anxiety. Problem solved. Your rights in tact. Fwiw, nobody's going to kill you for it. Though convincing you of this appears somewhat out of the realms of reason. Would hope the attempts at reason would have at least partially made it through your persecution complex. And I say that as someone who pretty much hates the governing bodies that hold power in western society. Not that I prefer the alternatives. A full rework would suit me personally but that's a whole other subject.

 

[achilles]

Exactly. No need to make it political. Speak ak with a doctor about your anxiety. Problem solved. Your rights in tact. Fwiw, nobody's going to kill yoy for it. Though convincing you of this appears somewhat out of the realms of reason.

Exactly. No need to make it political. Speak with a doctor about your anxiety. Problem solved. Your rights in tact. Fwiw, nobody's going to kill you for it. Though convincing you of this appears somewhat out of the realms of reason. Would hope the attempts at reason would have at least partially made it through your persecution complex. And I say that as someone who pretty much hates the governing bodies that hold power in western society. Not that I prefer the alternatives. A full rework would suit me personally but that's a whole other subject.

As the old joke goes, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get ya.

 

[waitingforrest]

Regardless of the politics, what caused you to decide to login today? And make 20 posts on this topic?

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

are happy to make relatively small concessions to that effect.

Potentially permanently altering how your body functions is not a small concession.

 

[Smart No More]

Potentially permanently altering how your body functions is not a small concession.

I was referring to wearing a mask. Guessing you're speaking about vaccines. As far as I'm concerned that's a different matter and isn't what I was referring to or considering a small concession. As I said, everything on individual merit.

Btw I love your avatar.

 

[Someone123]

I am both very selfish and very weak. The question here is what will you do to me when I tell you I am not sympathetic to your side in your war?

It's a war we are all in, the whole human race against the virus, whether we like it or not. And we better get used to fighting wars like this, because there could easily be much more deadly pandemics coming any time. It's not all about you. Some people pull their weight for the benefit of the common good and some don't. Mask mandates are on a case by case basis, with people making their best efforts to determine risk vs reward. Let's say a building is burning with children inside and one person runs in and saves them and one doesn't- what happens to the person who doesn't- nothing directly, they just have to live with having the weak, selfish character that they have chosen for themselves.

 

[_Seeking]

If telling someone they are likely to survive a danger they fear is not comforting I am at a loss. I apologize. I am not sure what to say instead in that case.

I do not think I have been inconsistent, although the questions at stake here are difficult.

Perhaps, no one is saying I am not allowed to breathe, but it is certainly the case that most are saying I am not permitted to breath in the manner that I had deemed a sacred right, which for almost all of human existence has been not been criminal in any way whatsoever. If society decides it can criminalize my breathing because the society decides it is dangerous, there is literally nothing to stop that society from deciding it would be safer if I did not breath at all, because it would, in fact, actually be safer if it did decide that.

This is not a small point. If you had asked me five years ago if the pandemic restrictions were even possible I would have said no, of course not. The normal processes of democracy, rule of law, due process, and the basic ethics of respect for other people's autonomy would have made it impossible. But then, wamm-o, when the shit hit the fan, none of the those principles mattered in the slightest to anyone I know, and I live in a very, very liberal enclave.

When you discover that every principle you thought made society function doesn't mean shit, it's terrifying.

I suspect you came here for a political agenda because you do not understand a suicide forum is where people go when they wish for death. Not reassurance that they will surely live. I said you were stating fallacies, not inconsistencies. Most places (outside of planes which ends in 2 weeks) ended mask mandates many weeks ago, so I don't know what you are talking about here when you say they aren't permitting you to breathe.

I am done here, I am not speaking on this again.

 

[achilles]

Regardless of the politics, what caused you to decide to login today? And make 20 posts on this topic?

This is all explained in the OP. The whole immanent election, change of party thing is completely true. So politics is kind of central here.
I take this stuff quite seriously.

BTW, I am not joking when I said how we choose to treat those we disagree with when the chips are down and the danger is real is going to be THE central issue that determines the doom of the human species. This has become very clear to me. Call it a religious position if you like. But if we require everyone to believe the same things and conform to a single universal authority, we fail the test. And, honestly, we'll deserve it.

Let's say a building is burning with children inside and one person runs in and saves them and one doesn't- what happens to the person who doesn't- nothing directly, they just have to live with having the weak, selfish character that they have chosen for themselves.

I can live with that. Like I said, I am weak and selfish. But, I cannot live with what I would have to become to compel others to enter the building against their will. To become that thing is too great and terrible to imagine.

 

[Someone123]

I cannot live with what I would have to become to compel others to enter the building against their will.

All analogikes have limits and when you take them too far them they don't match the situation any more. The better example was ww2, in which so many people pulling together helped to win the war. Of course not everyone pulled together, I'm sure there were people who didn't care about the cause and just took care of themselves, but that fact that most people were willing to contribute was key to winning the war.

 

[achilles]

I suspect you came here for a political agenda because you do not understand a suicide forum is where people go when they wish for death. Not reassurance that they will surely live. I said you were stating fallacies, not inconsistencies. Most places (outside of planes which ends in 2 weeks) ended mask mandates many weeks ago, so I don't know what you are talking about here when you say they aren't permitting you to breathe.

I am done here, I am not speaking on this again.

Perhaps I am in the wrong place. I understand people who are suffering come here looking for help to find a peaceful death.
I had also understood this was also a place for people struggling with suicidal thoughts looking for hope to help them live.
I do not wish to die, although this issue has made me question if this world is one worth living in.
I admit this is ridiculously melodramatic. If I am in the wrong place, I am sorry. This is why I did pick the 'off-topic' forum.

This thread has been enormously helpful for me. I am immensely grateful and I do not regret posting.

Yes, the general mask mandate in my area has ended (although it is my understanding that children are still being tortured in the name of this madness.) But, the mask mandate really isn't the main issue, as I have said repeatedly. The main issue is that I have come to see, quite clearly, that most people don't give a shit about the principles that I thought were the bedrock of post-enlightenment civilization. That realization does not go away just because Fauci says he's changed his mind about masks, again.

It's a war we are all in, the whole human race against the virus, whether we like it or not.

No. I am not at war with the virus. I am fully human (for the sake of argument). Thus, not all humans are at war with the virus.