Method Guns/firearms megathread

[Pepper]

Anyone a firearms expert? Can look at pictures of a firearm and tell what kind it is (afaIk they're rifles) and what it takes for ammunition? I have pictures of four firearms, and ammunition. Just wanting to know which goes with which.

 

[Roger]

Anyone a firearms expert? Can look at pictures of a firearm and tell what kind it is (afaIk they're rifles) and what it takes for ammunition? I have pictures of four firearms, and ammunition. Just wanting to know which goes with which.

You've just got pictures?
Post them and I'll have a go. I've had a bit of experience.

 

[Pepper]

You've just got pictures?
Post them and I'll have a go. I've had a bit of experience.

 

[Roger]

Images *** 3339 and ****927 appear to be an air rifle. Calibre .177 or .22 ? Probably .177 as there is a tub of 4.5mm (aka .177) in the image of the cabinet.

The bottom gun in image 613 , shown again in 829 is a Harrington and Richardson single barrel shotgun. Calibre - Most of these that I have seen in UK have been 12 bore. The box of cartridges in image ***746 will be the giveaway.

The top gun in 613 and shown again in 849 is an underlever repeater, possibly Winchester or Marlin. Hard to guess at calibre, but American guns almost invariably have calibre designations stamped on the gun somewhere.

The rifle in 036 is a Marlin cal .22LR semi automatic. The magazines in images 607 and 746 probably belong to this rifle.

Ammunition in the cabinet -
box of .22 LR,
box of shotgun cartridges cal ?,
tub of .177 air rifle pellets.

Edited: If you are unfamiliar with firearms, be careful. Keep fingers away from triggers, don't point at anybody. If you know how, ensure breeches and magazines are empty.

 

[ScorpiusDragon]

So I found my dads shotgun. Couldn't tell what kind of shells they were but I know he uses it for hunting deer and bigger game. That should be good right?

if you don't mind me asking, what kind of shotgun was it?

 

[Roger]

Pretty sure 613 top/849 is Winchester, not Marlin.

 

[Ynoocs]

Anyone have any opinions on whether a rifle chambered in .223 with a 16" barrel or a 10mm handgun with a 4.6" barrel would be more effective? Both would utilize soft/hollow point ammo respectively. Rifle has the obvious power advantage, but I'm slightly concerned about over-penetration and the possibility of the high velocity cartridge of .223 not dumping all of its energy whereas the 10mm seems that it would be more likely to.

 

[Roger]

I assume that we are talking headshots ?

A .223/5.56 round will deliver round about three times the energy of your 10mm pistol. Even if it completely perforated the skull, with some retained energy on exit, it would still have dumped far more energy than your pistol could, and the HV rifle round will cause temporary cavitation up to ten times the diameter of the permanent wound track, destroying brain cells up to that limit. The pistol round won't cause the formation of a temporary cavity. Added to which, at this point blank range there is a good chance of suffering a Krönlein shot from the HV rifle bullet.
OTOH a pistol would be much easier to manipulate.

 

[TAW122]

I would OPT for a bigger round, like 6.5cm creedmoor and/or the 300BLK rounds as they are heavier and do more damage, but yes, technically a .223/5.56 NATO round would be sufficient, but has a higher chance of not causing instant death.

 

[Ynoocs]

I assume that we are talking headshots ?

A .223/5.56 round will deliver round about three times the energy of your 10mm pistol. Even if it completely perforated the skull, with some retained energy on exit, it would still have dumped far more energy than your pistol could, and the HV rifle round will cause temporary cavitation up to ten times the diameter of the permanent wound track, destroying brain cells up to that limit. The pistol round won't cause the formation of a temporary cavity. Added to which, at this point blank range there is a good chance of suffering a Krönlein shot from the HV rifle bullet.
OTOH a pistol would be much easier to manipulate.

Roger,

Thanks for the great information. Considering what you said, the rifle seems like the obvious choice to me.
If you don't mind me asking, could you give me your input on whether soft point ammo (typically for hunting medium game) or ballistic tip varmint ammo, which is designed to explode on impact would be better? I feel that when aiming through the mouth at an upward angle towards the brainstem, the varmint round might be a better choice, whereas it seems soft point would be better for a behind the ear shot which would require additional penetration through the skull.

Thanks in advance!

I would OPT for a bigger round, like 6.5cm creedmoor and/or the 300BLK rounds as they are heavier and do more damage, but yes, technically a .223/5.56 NATO round would be sufficient, but has a higher chance of not causing instant death.

Thanks for the reply! I agree that a bigger round would be more ideal, however .223/5.56 is my only option since I can't afford a new rifle I'm afraid :/

 

[Roger]

Roger,

Thanks for the great information. Considering what you said, the rifle seems like the obvious choice to me.
If you don't mind me asking, could you give me your input on whether soft point ammo (typically for hunting medium game) or ballistic tip varmint ammo, which is designed to explode on impact would be better? I feel that when aiming through the mouth at an upward angle towards the brainstem, the varmint round might be a better choice, whereas it seems soft point would be better for a behind the ear shot which would require additional penetration through the skull.

I don't want to assist you in doing anything, but I will say that for the type of shot that you seem to want to take, bullet construction is really immaterial. All of the .223/5.56mm bullet types are going to blow a minimum two inch diameter hole through a brain.

A ballistic tip bullet is still hollow point, but simply has a polymer tip over the hole to aid with aerodynamics. I don't really get the "exploding" bit.
Of all the 5.56mm ammo I was familiar with, the most likely to disintegrate is the 62 grain NATO FMJ designated M855 by the US Military. This has a tombac jacket with a steel penetrator core taking up about half of the interior, behind which is lead core. Whilst stable in flight through air, the bullet becomes quickly unstable in any denser medium, and quickly starts to yaw, then tumble. Essentially, as it rapidly decelerates it wants flip over to travel base first.
As it yaws the back of the bullet flattens and squeezes out the lead through the open base, leaving traces of lead along the wound track. This is highly visible on X-Ray images, creating the "lead snowstorm". At the moment of greatest stress, i.e. when it is upright, the tombac jacket tends to rip away, as there is a weak spot where the join of the two parts of the core roughly coincide with the cannelure in the jacket.

The jacket is ragged, irregular and comparatively light, and so may be retained in the target, but that steel penetrator is the most likely component to exit.

Quite a mess, but so is any close range high velocity rifle wound to the skull. Remember Jackie climbing over the boot (trunk) of that open topped limo in Dealey Plaza to grab that chunk of her husband's head ? Watch the Zapruder film.

 

[catch_the_bus_soon]

my plan is to load up on Anxiety pills, jumped into my (sit-on-top-type) kayak wearing a 22 lbs scuba belt with a Mossberg short-barreled 12 gauge pump shoot gun with 15 pellet 00 high-velocity Remington shells; barrel in mouth, slightly point up but fully inserted, tape around the barrel for better biting grip, pull trigger, and detach the Medulla Oblongata, then falling or flipped off the Kayak into the Lake for good measure. I tied a rope to me and the kayak so the Sheriff can recover the body for faster and accurate Death Certificate. I need as close to 100% success as possible.

 

[dreamofme]

my plan is to load up on Anxiety pills, jumped into my (sit-on-top-type) kayak wearing a 22 lbs scuba belt with a Mossberg short-barreled 12 gauge pump shoot gun with 15 pellet 00 high-velocity Remington shells; barrel in mouth, slightly point up but fully inserted, tape around the barrel for better biting grip, pull trigger, and detach the Medulla Oblongata, then falling or flipped off the Kayak into the Lake for good measure. I tied a rope to me and the kayak so the Sheriff can recover the body for faster and accurate Death Certificate. I need as close to 100% success as possible.

What a way to go...

 

[Roger]

Pretty sure 613 top/849 is Winchester, not Marlin.

Model 1894 Winchester - the classic chambering is 30-30 ("Thirty thirty") though there are no cartridges of this calibre (or any other calibre that an 1894 might be chambered for) in the pics of the cabinet.
30-30 is popular for deer hunting in US.

 

[Wayfaerer]

Man, I remember for years I was really obsessive about what gun I wanted to end my life with when the time came. I wanted to use a handgun that had a lot of class like a 1911 or Hi-Power (gun in my avatar) but I didn't realize until these past few months that using anything other than a shotgun was much riskier than I thought. What a disappointment! I didn't want to use a shotgun because it would pulverize my head but it's the safest way ctb with a gun unfortunately and the cost of failure is very steep...

Firearm is not my first method because I wish not to contribute to the fraudulent gun "crime" statistic and it's too messy for the survivor's consciousness but it's just so damn convenient it's almost impossible to pass up. It's also the most american way to ctb so that's cool too.

 

[Nunyabinniss]

Model 1894 Winchester - the classic chambering is 30-30 ("Thirty thirty") though there are no cartridges of this calibre (or any other calibre that an 1894 might be chambered for) in the pics of the cabinet.
30-30 is popular for deer hunting in US.

Get some rounds they sell them everywhere lead flat nosed bullets.

Anyone have any opinions on whether a rifle chambered in .223 with a 16" barrel or a 10mm handgun with a 4.6" barrel would be more effective? Both would utilize soft/hollow point ammo respectively. Rifle has the obvious power advantage, but I'm slightly concerned about over-penetration and the possibility of the high velocity cartridge of .223 not dumping all of its energy whereas the 10mm seems that it would be more likely to.

That's tough since the .223 is so small. I'd still bet on the .223 with the velocity and pressure plus all the expanding gas will basically tear through everything except bone

my plan is to load up on Anxiety pills, jumped into my (sit-on-top-type) kayak wearing a 22 lbs scuba belt with a Mossberg short-barreled 12 gauge pump shoot gun with 15 pellet 00 high-velocity Remington shells; barrel in mouth, slightly point up but fully inserted, tape around the barrel for better biting grip, pull trigger, and detach the Medulla Oblongata, then falling or flipped off the Kayak into the Lake for good measure. I tied a rope to me and the kayak so the Sheriff can recover the body for faster and accurate Death Certificate. I need as close to 100% success as possible.

Hi velocity regular nine pellet double aught buckshot should hold more powder and give you higher velocities than the 15 pellet double aight buck shot. Those extra six pallets eat into the space more powder could fit. This isn't always the case but it is often the case. Good luck and I applaud you for having multiple forms of redundancy in case one method fails I've always wondered why people don't plan on that more often.

 

[toomuchgrief]

and speaking of failures of putting the gun in one's mouth, the Boston Bomber failed when he did that and tried to kill himself.. he aimed too low, and the bullet just went out the back of his neck, under the brain stem... and he also missed his spinal cord

This is what I'm worry about, anyone take on this? If I use a double barrel shotgun, what are the chances of it miss? No way I can hold a long gun through my temple, so mouth is the only way, but I'm afraid I might miss it, since I never hold a gun before in my life.

Anyways, question.
How about a triple barrel shotgun? That should be enough to blow my mouth and brain out right? Even if not hit the brainstem, it should be enough to blow my face right? Chance of survival?

 

[MerrySkeleton]

This is what I'm worry about, anyone take on this? If I use a double barrel shotgun, what are the chances of it miss?

If you're firing a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot inside of your mouth, the odds of failure should be infinitesimal. "Missing" wouldn't even be a factor as your head would be pretty much blown to pieces. Granted, I've seen a few stories about people surviving shotgun suicide attempts, but I think those are almost all cases where the person either accidentally used a light birdshot load or they had the gun pointed at their head in an awkward way (like under the chin, which I've read is especially prone to errors) and then they flinched/turned their head as they pulled the trigger. The number of barrels isn't important. Triple barrel shotguns don't really exist (there are some, but they're expensive and uncommon) and a double barrel shotgun is still only going to fire from one barrel at a time anyway unless you go out of your way to buy one with a double trigger. Any 12 gauge pump or single shot with a short (18.5in) barrel (so you can maneuver it into your mouth and pull the trigger) is ideal.

 

[siray]

This is what I'm worry about, anyone take on this? If I use a double barrel shotgun, what are the chances of it miss? No way I can hold a long gun through my temple, so mouth is the only way, but I'm afraid I might miss it, since I never hold a gun before in my life.

Listen man, about the Boston bomber, there is no evidence that he tried to kill himself with a shotgun. Some sources say that he got hit by shrapnel during the bombings. When he was captured, he had no firearm on him.

The chances of surviving shotgun to the brainstem are extremely low. If you're using a handgun, the bullet might pass through the back of your head without hitting the brainstem (this is why people aim the handgun behind the ear instead of through the mouth) and you might survive that. But a shotgun, it makes your brainstem blow apart.

My point being, if you get the angle perfectly right, it will be instant lights out for you. If you aim a little low, you will still die.
BUT, if you aim a little too high, you might survive. So make sure you don't aim too high. And keep a protractor or a phone application that let's you adjust your angle. It should be 10 to 15 degrees.

 

[toomuchgrief]

ah thank you MerrySkeleton sir for explain to me. So you recommended 12 gauge buckshot ammo instead of slug ammo? Wouldn't slug do more damange? Or probably miss the brainstem since it not spread out like buckshot.

eta: And thank you Sir siray for explain to me. So if you aim too high you might survive?
I sure read something about some people damage their face with the shotgun but still survive.
Might as well jump off a 1,000 feet bridge to concrete then, that probably higher chance of dead for me.

 

[siray]

ah thank you MerrySkeleton sir for explain to me. So you recommended 12 gauge buckshot ammo instead of slug ammo? Wouldn't slug do more damange? Or probably miss the brainstem since it not spread out like buckshot.

eta: And thank you Sir siray for explain to me. So if you aim too high you might survive?
I sure read something about some people damage their face with the shotgun but still survive.
Might as well jump off a 1,000 feet bridge to concrete then, that probably higher chance of dead for me.

People who damage their face and survive probably aimed it under their chin. Oh and, I have also considered jumping but it's extremely difficult to overcome the survival instinct. Pulling the trigger of the shotgun is much easier.
You might be able to jump if you drink lots of alcohol and are so fucked up that in the end you say fuck it and jump.
But still, I recommend shotgun. Me and my friend are doing it together, in less than two months from now. I am so excited.

 

[Roger]

rdles

ah thank you MerrySkeleton sir for explain to me. So you recommended 12 gauge buckshot ammo instead of slug ammo? Wouldn't slug do more damange? Or probably miss the brainstem since it not spread out like buckshot.

eta: And thank you Sir siray for explain to me. So if you aim too high you might survive?
I sure read something about some people damage their face with the shotgun but still survive.
Might as well jump off a 1,000 feet bridge to concrete then, that probably higher chance of dead for me.

The weight of the load in a shotgun cartridge remains the same regardless of pellet size, about 30 gm for a 12 bore/23/4 inch cartridge. The smaller they are, the more of them. There are typically 9 large pellets in a 12 bore buckshot cartridge, and about 225 much smaller ones in a Number 6 shot cartridge.

As the load acts as a single compact mass over the first metre or so before it starts to spread, it doesn't really matter what size of shot you have - the muzzle energy will be approximately the same, and the entry wound will be a single hole, about 20mm in diameter for a close contact 12 bore shot. Once inside the skull the pellets disperse, sometimes bouncing off each other in a snooker ball style, pulpifying the brain. Birdshot is quite sufficient for this.

The advantage of heavier shot (say buckshot) or slug is that the heavier projectiles retain velocity (and thus kinetic energy) over a greater distance. Slug has the additional benefit of gyroscopic stabilisation as the casting of the missile mimics the effect of rifling. These advantages are not required in the case of a close/hard contact shot.

In the case of a contact shot, with a shotgun, a huge volume of expanding gas enters the wound. Soft tissue may be able to accept the expansion, perhaps with ballooning of the skin and tearing around the edge of the wound, but where the gas is enclosed inside the vault of the skull then this causes the exploding head phenomenon.

When euthanasing an animal with a shotgun it is best to leave a gap of about 200mm between muzzle and head in order to let the gas cloud disperse and thus avoid the distressing sight of an exploded skull, also to prevent possible overpressure damage to the relatively lightly constructed shotgun barrel.

In essence, for the purposes that a shotgun is of interest to users of this forum, don't worry about shot size.

 

[siray]

rdles

The weight of the load in a shotgun cartridge remains the same regardless of pellet size, about 30 gm for a 12 bore/23/4 inch cartridge. The smaller they are, the more of them. There are typically 9 large pellets in a 12 bore buckshot cartridge, and about 225 much smaller ones in a Number 6 shot cartridge.

As the load acts as a single compact mass over the first metre or so before it starts to spread, it doesn't really matter what size of shot you have - the muzzle energy will be approximately the same, and the entry wound will be a single hole, about 20mm in diameter for a close contact 12 bore shot. Once inside the skull the pellets disperse, sometimes bouncing off each other in a snooker ball style, pulpifying the brain. Birdshot is quite sufficient for this.

The advantage of heavier shot (say buckshot) or slug is that the heavier projectiles retain velocity (and thus kinetic energy) over a greater distance. Slug has the additional benefit of gyroscopic stabilisation as the casting of the missile mimics the effect of rifling. These advantages are not required in the case of a close/hard contact shot.

In the case of a contact shot, with a shotgun, a huge volume of expanding gas enters the wound. Soft tissue may be able to accept the expansion, perhaps with ballooning of the skin and tearing around the edge of the wound, but where the gas is enclosed inside the vault of the skull then this causes the exploding head phenomenon.

When euthanasing an animal with a shotgun it is best to leave a gap of about 200mm between muzzle and head in order to let the gas cloud disperse and thus avoid the distressing sight of an exploded skull, also to prevent possible overpressure damage to the relatively lightly constructed shotgun barrel.

In essence, for the purposes that a shotgun is of interest to users of this forum, don't worry about shot size.

That is the holy grail of all explanations regarding shotgun CTB. I really needed this insight.

I am planning on visiting my dealer in a week or two. Hopefully he has buckshot or slug. But if he only has birdshot, I'll take your word on it and use it for CTB since you say it would be sufficient.

One more question, since I am not buying a new shotgun but probably a used one (that's as good as it gets when you're buying without license in my country), should I worry about the shotgun jamming at the time of CTB and not firing? Or the shot not attaining sufficient velocity? Should I also buy gun oil?

I certainly will be testing the shotgun before buying. But in the unfortunate case of me not being able to find a place to test it, I will just have to rely on luck.

 

[Roger]

No matter how authoritative somebody may sound on a forum like this, I still suggest that you should seek to confirm anything that they may say/write.

For myself, I am content to provide general information, but I will not tread anywhere near the dividing line that separates me from any suggestion of actually encouraging or giving assistance.

Clearly I cannot comment on the condition of the gun you intend using, without having seen it. You refer to it as "used", but people shoot regularly with shotguns that may easily be nearly 100 years old. Typical faults on old guns are corrosion, which may have weakened barrel walls to such an extent that they blow up when a shot is fired, dents in barrels, worn out barrels (with paper thin barrel walls,) and worn out locks which allow a breech to blow apart. The action and barrels must be a tight fit when the gun is closed (I am assuming a single/double drop-down barrel gun, not a semi-auto or slide action.)

If you are going to a dealer to buy shotgun cartridges (what Americans call shells) you must not only buy the correct bore size ("gauge") but also the correct chamber length. Why not take your gun to the dealer and ask if s/he thinks it is in a safe condition, and also s/he can show you what length of cartridge the gun is chambered for ?

"Jamming" is almost invariably a fault which occurs in a magazine fed gun, when a cartridge either fails to chamber or fails to eject properly, blocking the feedway and stopping the chambering of the next round from the magazine.

Most guns require very little lubrication, and oil is really only of any great help as a cleaner, preservative and rust inhibitor. In some cases over lubrication can lead to dangerously high chamber pressures.

 

[siray]

No matter how authoritative somebody may sound on a forum like this, I still suggest that you should seek to confirm anything that they may say/write.

For myself, I am content to provide general information, but I will not tread anywhere near the dividing line that separates me from any suggestion of actually encouraging or giving assistance.

I've always had a hard time determining which source should have the highest authority when it comes to CTB information.

Back in 2014 when I was considering using a shotgun, I only had lostallhope.com, and it suggested shooting myself in the temple with the shotgun, and if not, go for the forehead. Back then, I did research and not once did I read about pointing to the brainstem instead of the head/temple. And Lostallhope only gave rudimentary info, they missed out all the important details about the angle and cartridge type.

It's a pro-life world we live in, google makes sure that the golden information gets censored. The kind of details you are giving me are unmatched with anything I have read so far on the internet. This info wasn't even in the peaceful pill handbook.

So yeah, you seem pretty legit and I'll take your word on it because I don't know where else to look on the internet. I'll maybe ask some people on Reddit but the fucking censorship there infuriates me, they are anti-suicide.

 

[TAW122]

@siray is on point here. Lostallhope only gives the general information, oftenly with specific details omitted. Indeed, we are in a pro-life, anti-suicide world, with every corner screaming "suicide prevention" and "life is great" spiel. It is incredibly frustrating to see that, but in our close sanctuary here, at SS, most of us have a similar goal which is to CTB reliably and peacefully, to escape this hellish existence when the suffering becomes too much.

Also, yes the brainstem idea is really accurate and this is coming from many sources of medical journals and even people who were once EMT's or worked in the medical field, they know what keeps a human being 'alive' and what causes death.

 

[toomuchgrief]

Sir @Roger, if buy a brand new shotgun from a liscense gun place then I don't need to worry about jamming right?
oh, and do brand new gun usually come with some ammo? Or it just an empty gun and you have to buy ammo separately?

And sir @Roger , you would say a shotgun with buckshot through the mouth will probably cause death right? Then maybe I should give up my 1,000 feet (300 meters) choice of CTB, for some reason I worry if the gun not kill me, my face will be deform, I be paralyze and I still be alive, which if that case I rather just jump off a 1,000 feet bridge then.


@siray, let hope this shotgun thing work, because I just read this, and it make me doubt myself, http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41046340/.../t/bullet-head-can-be-overcome-survivors-say/

because I don't think there anything can be worse than this.

 

[Pykul]

I'm sure I'll chime in more as the thread progresses, and generally make my usual verbose nuisance of myself, but I'll start with this:

Hollywood representations of gun suicides are a very, very bad template to follow. Shooting yourself in the temple, or holding the gun under your chin, is a BAD idea, for either pistol or long-gun attempts. The odds are good you won't hit the all-important brainstem, but will instead blow out your frontal lobe and end up a vegetable. Some people have even blown off the entire front of their face and lived --and been able to survive without a life support machine. If you think your life is bad now...

These Hollywood aimpoints are probably the majority of why gun suicide statistics show only an 82.5% success rate rather than 100%.

I'll collect a few more thoughts and be back later.

I no longer own a gun, I can't afford one, hell I can't even afford the background check. I've been looking into a pipe based slam fire 12 ga using buckshot. Any thoughts?

 

[toomuchgrief]

alot of gun experts here. So my question.

Regular traditional shotgun seem really long. So I find this shotgun (which also 12 guauge), it just shorter length than regular one and fatter, easier for me to aim at the mouth (if I decide the gun route). So would this gun work? Would it give the same effect as those long skinny shotgun (like poster Pepper's guns in pg. 9)?

And you can buy this gun here in U.S. where I live, legal, sale at liscense gun store. Not sure if it gonna do the job though.

 

[toomuchgrief]

And talk about shotgun, are pump better or semi-auto?