Getting N from A. Things everyone should know.

[jgm63]

@Ark, can you confirm my assessment? Maybe it's not accurate.

1 sealed bottle is supposed to contain 6.3g N (63mg/ml)
The plastic bottles were tested as 56mg/ml.

At first glance, then, we have this scenario :
A)
The sealed bottle contains 6.3g of N
The 2 x 60ml plastic bottles contain 6.72g of N

But....
If the sealed bottles were sent for testing, they might also test at 56mg/ml (despite being labelled as 63mg/ml).

So you could have this scenario :
B)
The sealed bottle contains 5.6g of N
The 2 x 60ml plastic bottles contain 6.72g of N

Or the sealed and plastic bottles could give the same test result, but the test results might not be accurate, and they both might in truth be 63mg/ml.

In which case you would have :
C)
The sealed bottle contains 6.3g of N
The 2 x 60ml plastic bottles contain 7.56g of N

Scenario A) is our current "best guess", but scenarios B and C could be possible, or something in between, etc

The absolute accuracy of energy control labs has been questioned a number of times, plus there can be variations due to uniformity of samples taken, etc, so it's not necessarily an exact science.....

 

[Ark]

Absolutely correct. If we take the test as factual what we can know for sure is that the people with two 60ml bottles have 6.72gm of N. Everything else is hypothesis unless someone tested a sealed 100ml bottle. However, if it is a sealed 100ml bottle, I personally would feel confident that I had 6gm of N which would be enough for me to feel comfortable with it.

 

[SnowStroller]

1 sealed bottle is supposed to contain 6.3g N (63mg/ml)
The plastic bottles were tested as 56mg/ml.

At first glance, then, we have this scenario :
A)
The sealed bottle contains 6.3g of N
The 2 x 60ml plastic bottles contain 6.72g of N

But....
If the sealed bottles were sent for testing, they might also test at 56mg/ml (despite being labelled as 63mg/ml).

So you could have this scenario :
B)
The sealed bottle contains 5.6g of N
The 2 x 60ml plastic bottles contain 6.72g of N

Or the sealed and plastic bottles could give the same test result, but the test results might not be accurate, and they both might in truth be 63mg/ml.

In which case you would have :
C)
The sealed bottle contains 6.3g of N
The 2 x 60ml plastic bottles contain 7.56g of N

Scenario A) is our current "best guess", but scenarios B and C could be possible, or something in between, etc

There is always some margin of sampling error when using these drug testing services. Without rigorous testing of multiple samples with a large data set, it's impossible to be certain of the decimals. The best we can do is understand that one sealed (veterinary grade) bottle contains 6.3 g, while two repackaged bottles contain a little over 6.5 g.

Here's where I find this to be disturbing, however. Some people ordering from A will have no idea about this situation, and will blindly follow what the most recent PPH reports. Some people ordering two bottles will use them for a double suicide.

So we could plausibly have a scenario where two people take one of each 60 ml bottle, expecting to OD on 6 g. But they may actually not CTB at all with only 3 g.
And let's not forget that less than 1% of people do not CTB on even 6 g, which is why many people opt for 12 g in the first place.

The issue then is not only A's potential greed, but the significantly higher risk of failed suicides that come with this deception

 

[jgm63]

There is always some margin of sampling error when using these drug testing services. Without rigorous testing of multiple samples with a large data set, it's impossible to be certain of the decimals. The best we can do is understand that one sealed (veterinary grade) bottle contains 6.3 g, while two repackaged bottles contain a little over 6.5 g.

Here's where I find this to be disturbing, however. Some people ordering from A will have no idea about this situation, and will blindly follow what the most recent PPH reports. Some people ordering two bottles will use them for a double suicide.

So we could plausibly have a scenario where two people take one of each 60 ml bottle, expecting to OD on 6 g. But they may actually not CTB at all with only 3 g.
And let's not forget that less than 1% of people do not CTB on even 6 g, which is why many people opt for 12 g in the first place.

The issue then is not only A's potential greed, but the significantly higher risk of failed suicides that come with this deception

What is the source of your 0.x% statistic, or is that anecdotal / heresay based ?

 

[Ark]

I have to agree, if someone ordered two bottles for two suicides and took 3gm each it is still possible to CTB but a very high chance of failure. And that is extremely concerning. A says nothing about how much your getting, or how much N is in each bottle. So your scenario is very plausible, and scary.

 

[SnowStroller]

What is the source of your 0.x% statistic, or is that anecdotal / heresay based ?

This is a direct statement from the PPH section on nembutal.

This is a direct statement from the PPH section on nembutal.

PPH Section 19.10: "A Lethal Dose of Nembutal"

In the vast majority of cases, one bottle (100ml@ 60mg/ml) of veterinary Nembutal will always be satisfactory and lead to a peaceful death, usually in ~1-2 hours. However, there is a small group (estimated at <l%) who may exhibit a prolonged comatose phase before death (sometimes up to 24 hours). Outright 'failures' remain extremely rare. Indeed, all of the reported failures investigated by Exit were associated with early discovery and subsequent medical intervention. This emphasizes the need for careful selection of the place of death.

So to clarify, the less than 1% will experience a prolonged coma which significantly increases the likelihood of discovery and resuscitation. People aware of this tend to opt for 12 g to make sure this doesn't happen

 

[jgm63]

This is a direct statement from the PPH section on nembutal.

Repasting from a previous post from @Ark where he quotes the PPH :

Is one 100ml bottle of Nembutal enough for a peaceful death?
While there are several florid accounts of failure by people taking a full
100ml bottle of veterinary Nembutal, closer scrutiny shows a much more
complex situation. Exit has examined the details and medical records of
several such cases.
In the vast majority of cases, one bottle (100ml @ 60mg/ml) of Nembutal
will be satisfactory. However, there is a small group (<1%) who may exhibit
a prolongued comatose phase before death (sometimes up to 24 hours).
Outright 'failures' remain extremely rare. Indeed, all of the reported failures
investigated were associated with discovery and medical intervention. This
emphasises the need for careful selection of the place chosen to take the
drugs.
In some of the analysed cases, the long comatose phase is associated with the
prolonged use of anti-psychotic medication, prior to taking the barbiturate.
It is presumed the induction of liver enzymes by these drugs causes some
degradation of the Nembutal before it reaches the brain. In this situation,
increasing the quantity of drug taken (eg. to 2 bottles, 12gm) may not
necessarily hasten the death.
Exit has examined the use of several potentiating drugs which may be
dissolved into the liquid Nembutal, removing any possibility of extended
coma. The results of these tests will be published in future editions of the
eHandbook.

So the statement made is not quite as simple as saying 0.x% fail when taking 6g of N....

 

[Ark]

Actually, there have been zero known instances of someone waking up after ingesting 6gm. Without intervention of some sort anyway. The less than 1% is people experiencing extended comatose phases. Which could be due to medications those people are currently taking. And in those cases, it is doubtful taking more N would have changed that extended comatose phase.

However, my main concern here is if people believe they have two bottles with 6gm in each bottle, when they in reality have two bottles with 3gm in each bottle.
@SnowStroller

The problem is the faq goes on to state that taking more probably wouldn't make a difference in those instances.

 

[SerenitySeeker]

I see a lot of speculation that can really just run off the rails here. Not saying they aren't valid concerns but what I think needs to be highlighted here as far as what has been stated on the board, I can't speak for anywhere else.
I think people have a lot of inconsistent information about the timeline of this stuff due to being a newer members, missing information etc. What @Ark and others did was just illuminate what has been happening for I know well over 9 month's plus. With that said, there are plenty other people who received nondescript packaging of two bottles intended for use of one individual and they successfully CTB'd. Whether they thought it was 12g or not. This is not to say it wasn't wrong that they were duped. It was, BUT if nothing else the ongoing dispute about if 6grams being enough or not should be a no brainer by now.

 

[SnowStroller]

As you quoted,

In some of the analyzed cases, the long comatose phase was associated with the prolonged use of anti-psychotic medication or chronic heavy alcohol use, prior to taking the barbiturate. It is presumed the induction of liver enzymes by these drugs causes increased degradation of the Nembutal, lowering the concentration in the brain. In these situations, increasing the quantity of drug taken (e.g. to 2 bottles, 12gm) may not necessarily hasten the death.

This implies that there is a smaller fraction of instances where the prolonged coma *is not* associated with the use of medication, and some anecdotal reports on this forum (iirc from lurking here for several years) of failing with smaller amounts of N. So if you're gonna go for N I think it makes sense to go for >10 g to eliminate these possibilities, though they are small.

Dignitas gives patients 12 g rather than 6 for a reason.

Danger of underdose with Mexican vet. Nembutal | Assisted-Dying Blog

There has been a lot of talk recently of getting from Mexico bottles of veterinary Nembutal for self-deliverance. Some reports claim one bottle is enough. True, one bottle of veterinary Nembutal (6 gms) will end the life of a frail, elderly person already close to death, but a physically strong...

assisted-dying.org

The 6 g dose info by Exit International is catered to their customers, who are all elderly frail people. If you are young it is harder for your body to die, in which case 12 g is a safer bet. That's all I wanted to say

 

[Mud.]

I see a lot of speculation that can really just run off the rails here. Not saying they aren't valid concerns but what I think needs to be highlighted here as far as what has been stated on the board, I can't speak for anywhere else.
I think people have a lot of inconsistent information about the timeline of this stuff due to being a newer members, missing information etc. What @Ark and others did was just illuminate what has been happening for I know well over 9 month's plus. With that said, there are plenty other people who received nondescript packaging of two bottles intended for use of one individual and they successfully CTB'd. Whether they thought it was 12g or not. This is not to say it wasn't wrong that they were duped. It was, BUT if nothing else the ongoing dispute about if 6grams being enough or not should be a no brainer by now.

I don't know where you get the 9 months+ from. I've been contact with quite a few people throughout my time here who ordered from A. and they all received the same bottles. The also received an e-mail from A. stating that the bottles contained 6.3 grams of Pentobarbital.

This is totally new behaviour of A. as far as I know and it's very disturbing. Opening the bottles is a definite no. It desterilizes the N.

 

[HereToday]

As you quoted,

In some of the analyzed cases, the long comatose phase was associated with the prolonged use of anti-psychotic medication or chronic heavy alcohol use, prior to taking the barbiturate. It is presumed the induction of liver enzymes by these drugs causes increased degradation of the Nembutal, lowering the concentration in the brain. In these situations, increasing the quantity of drug taken (e.g. to 2 bottles, 12gm) may not necessarily hasten the death.

This implies that there is a smaller fraction of instances where the prolonged coma *is not* associated with the use of medication, and some anecdotal reports on this forum (iirc from lurking here for several years) of failing with smaller amounts of N. So if you're gonna go for N I think it makes sense to go for >10 g to eliminate these possibilities, though they are small.

Dignitas gives patients 12 g rather than 6 for a reason.

Danger of underdose with Mexican vet. Nembutal | Assisted-Dying Blog

There has been a lot of talk recently of getting from Mexico bottles of veterinary Nembutal for self-deliverance. Some reports claim one bottle is enough. True, one bottle of veterinary Nembutal (6 gms) will end the life of a frail, elderly person already close to death, but a physically strong...

assisted-dying.org

The 6 g dose info by Exit International is catered to their customers, who are all elderly frail people. If you are young it is harder for your body to die, in which case 12 g is a safer bet. That's all I wanted to say

So in this case the solution would be 2 separate orders of 1 bottle.
Not sure whether to go with only 1 bottle of N, or just stick with SN

 

[SnowStroller]

As you quoted,

In some of the analyzed cases, the long comatose phase was associated with the prolonged use of anti-psychotic medication or chronic heavy alcohol use, prior to taking the barbiturate. It is presumed the induction of liver enzymes by these drugs causes increased degradation of the Nembutal, lowering the concentration in the brain. In these situations, increasing the quantity of drug taken (e.g. to 2 bottles, 12gm) may not necessarily hasten the death.

This implies that there is a smaller fraction of instances where the prolonged coma *is not* associated with the use of medication, and some anecdotal reports on this forum (iirc from lurking here for several years) of failing with smaller amounts of N. So if you're gonna go for N I think it makes sense to go for >10 g to eliminate these possibilities, though they are small.

Dignitas gives patients 12 g rather than 6 for a reason.

Danger of underdose with Mexican vet. Nembutal | Assisted-Dying Blog

There has been a lot of talk recently of getting from Mexico bottles of veterinary Nembutal for self-deliverance. Some reports claim one bottle is enough. True, one bottle of veterinary Nembutal (6 gms) will end the life of a frail, elderly person already close to death, but a physically strong...

assisted-dying.org

The 6 g dose info by Exit International is catered to their customers, who are all elderly frail people. If you are young it is harder for your body to die, in which case 12 g is a safer bet. That's all I wanted to say

Please read this direct quote from David Humphrey's blog. 6 g is fine for most terminally ill people (which is what the PPH reports are based on), but not necessarily if you are healthy:

There has been a lot of talk recently of getting from Mexico bottles of veterinary Nembutal for self-deliverance.

Some reports claim one bottle is enough. True, one bottle of veterinary Nembutal (6 gms) will end the life of a frail, elderly person already close to death, but a physically strong person, healthy in all ways except their terminal illness (for instance, brain cancer) it is necessary for the person wishing be certain to die to drink two bottles of it (12 gms).

I base this on case reports reaching me from around the world. Support for the two bottle method comes also from the customary dose of Nembutal used in the Oregon law as being 9 gms, while Dignitas in Switzerland prescribes 12 gms. I have heard of delays or failure by some using the one-only bottle strategy.

Also, getting vet.Nembutal over the Internet is not easy, plus the price rises from the average of $30 per bottle in a Mexican store to as much as $800 each via an intermediary.

Caveat emptor.

While it may sound convenient visiting a Mexican border town, it is wiser to go to an inland city where life is calmer.

— D H

There absolutely HAVE been reported instances of outright failure on 6 g. This is another instance where you need to take information from multiple sources and not blindly follow the PPH 100%. Just read this comment from that blog post:

I can vouch for the truth that one bottle of Mexican nembutal is not enough to end the life of a relatively healthy person. I took 100ml in early October 2009 only to end up in the Intensive Care Unit of St George Hospital in Sydney, Australia.

Please take at least 200ml, otherwise you'll survive

 

[LMLN]

So in this case the solution would be 2 separate orders of 1 bottle.
Not sure whether to go with only 1 bottle of N, or just stick with SN

I have really thought seriously about ordering N. But with the uncertainty I think I am just going to use my SN. I know it's likely less peaceful. But if it works...the chance of some pain is worth it to me. It's a personal choice I guess. You have to weigh the risks/benefits and decide. Seems like two orders of 1 bottle each would be needed if you wanted to be very sure.

 

[Ark]

So he took one bottle and went to the hospital? Interesting...

 

[SerenitySeeker]

I don't know where you get the 9 months+ from. I've been contact with quite a few people throughout my time here who ordered from A. and they all received the same bottles. The also received an e-mail from A. stating that the bottles contained 6.3 grams of Pentobarbital.

This is totally new behaviour of A. as far as I know and it's very disturbing. Opening the bottles is a definite no. It desterilizes the N.

I have also spoken to people here who have ordered from A during my time here. And some of them received original bottles and some of them received nondescript bottles. They also received the email stating what each bottle contained. Now as far as who is to say the exact moment things changed to some receiving non descript bottles, I'm not going to pretend to know that. But it definitely didn't just start happening a few months ago from my vantage point.

 

[Ark]

P.s. I have read probably 50 or more case reports. I have researched through EI, PPH, Dignitas, and so much more over the last few months. Not a single case of a documented failure exists of a person ingesting 6gm and not having intervention.

I honestly do not mind being wrong, hence why I researched the crap out of it. If anyone can find a single documented case report or something similar showing someone ingested 6gm of N and was found 24 hours later and survived I would be very interested in reading it.

 

[calendulo]

Well, one bottle is good enough. Or not.

Does anyone how to avoid the terrible taste?.
Any kind of mixing or mixture. Any serious idea or advice to how drink it.
Some helpful information about.

I did a test using 3,5 mg mixing with water and taste is disgusting, really disgusting.....therefore will be impossible swallowing 100ml.

 

[HereToday]

I have really thought seriously about ordering N. But with the uncertainty I think I am just going to use my SN. I know it's likely less peaceful. But if it works...the chance of some pain is worth it to me. It's a personal choice I guess. You have to weigh the risks/benefits and decide. Seems like two orders of 1 bottle each would be needed if you wanted to be very sure.

I agree. It's worth going in a less peaceful but more certain way. Knowing my luck if I took N I'd end up in a coma for days and get 'saved' by hotel staff lol
Plus I wonder if A would get surpicious of 2 orders within a short time frame, or scam you out of the second order, or one of them doesn't arrive.. Too many possibilities

 

[Ark]

Most places give chocolate to the patient right after drinking the N to mask the taste. Others have reported a shot of alcohol works nicely also.

 

[LMLN]

I guess another option I have thought about is using both N and SN. My thought is the N would put me to sleep and the SN would insure I'm finished off. Idk.

 

[SnowStroller]

I guess another option I have thought about is using both N and SN. My thought is the N would put me to sleep and the SN would insure I'm finished off. Idk.

That would increase chances of success by another 0.X%, but nobody knows how N and SN interact during fatal drug overdose.
A high likelihood is that it is more painful and less peaceful than either method alone because you are cutting off oxygen to your body and brain via two separate pathways. Instead of a slow fade, it might be a big "fuck me this hurts!" I would not recommend it

 

[calendulo]

Most places give chocolate to the patient right after drinking the N to mask the taste. Others have reported a shot of alcohol works nicely also.

About chocolate, I do not know but I do not think that works. I tried to drink some juice and it was useless.

Alcohol sounds better to me. Cognac or something with strong taste.

It's a beginning.

 

[Ark]

Alcohol also helps potentiate ( is that a word ) the N's effect. Jefferson's Ocean cask strength is my chaser.

 

[jgm63]

Just wanted to offer my thoughts... (not necessarily anything new here)

Original text :
However, there is a small group (<1%) who may exhibit a prolongued comatose phase before death (sometimes up to 24 hours). Outright 'failures' remain extremely rare. Indeed, all of the reported failures investigated were associated with discovery and medical intervention. This emphasises the need for careful selection of the place chosen to take the drugs. In some of the analysed cases, the long comatose phase is associated with the
prolonged use of anti-psychotic medication, prior to taking the barbiturate. It is presumed the induction of liver enzymes by these drugs causes some degradation of the Nembutal before it reaches the brain. In this situation, increasing the quantity of drug taken (eg. to 2 bottles, 12gm) may not
necessarily hasten the death.

Summary of main points :

> A small group (<1%) may exhibit a prolongued comatose phase before death. This can occur for users of anti-psychotic meds, but also for non users.

> The known outright failures were due to discovery and intervention.

> For the non anti-psychotic meds users, the prolongued comatose phase might be avoided by increasing the dose, but that applies to <1%

Conclusions (based on above plus info from elsewhere) :

> Most people can still feel fairly safe using 6g
> If you can use a higher dose then that's a bonus, and it may allow a faster process.
> In some rare cases (<1%), a higher dose might avoid the prolongued comatose phase ( but this may not work for users of anti-psychotic meds ).

> If using 6g, you might want to allow up to 24 hours before being found, just to be sure, although that should only apply to <1% of cases. For 99% (or more) of people, 3 to 6 hours would probably be fine (haven't verified the 3 to 6 hours, but I believe it's a reasonable reflection, may modify later)

> The more limited the amount of time before being found, the more you might want to consider a higher dose ( but this may not work for users of anti-psychotic meds ).

However :

To increase confidence in the statement from exit, we would want to know more about the number of cases studied, the range of body weights, physical health, etc. A document detailing this, with some easy-to-read summary conclusions would go a long way.

Personally, I can understand people of a higher weight feeling that they might need more than 6g.

There are websites (eg Derek Humphry blog) claiming that 12g is recommended, however, it is not known how unbiased such sources are, and whether they are motivated by financial incentive.

More data would help to bring a clearer perspective.

 

[Ark]

That is my biggest issue. I have come to conclude ( in my opinion anyway ) a lot of the "use two bottles hype" seems to have financial motivations. And I have to be honest here, that really pisses me off.

 

[SnowStroller]

Um... how do people like David Humphrey make more money on people getting 2 rather than 1 bottle of N from A (or some other Latin American country)?
He (and I!) are only pointing this out to make sure people know what they are getting into. To make sure they are safe in the consequences of their decision

I don't know about you, but I have been screwed in many places of my life with probabilities of less than 1%. People tend to underestimate the gravity of that risk when it comes to something as serious as drug overdose. People are psychologically biased. We always think it can't be us, until it is

If 12 g covers me even for that extra 0.X%, why deny it and claim the 2 bottle argument is financially motivated. People pay for home/auto insurance their whole lives for risks that are less than 1/100 (sometimes as little as 1/100000). The somewhat stochastic nature of probability can really bite you in the ass

That's all I wanted to say

 

[blueming]

So in this case the solution would be 2 separate orders of 1 bottle.
Not sure whether to go with only 1 bottle of N, or just stick with SN

Sorry to go slightly off topic but could someone tell me how much N is now? Reading this thread it does seem like ordering the 2 bottles separately is the best option, but that's probably going to cost more right T__T

Plus I wonder if A would get surpicious of 2 orders within a short time frame, or scam you out of the second order, or one of them doesn't arrive.. Too many possibilities

I'm also worried about this... :/

 

[jgm63]

Um... how do people like David Humphrey make more money on people getting 2 rather than 1 bottle of N from A (or some other Latin American country)?
He (and I!) are only pointing this out to make sure people know what they are getting into. To make sure they are safe in the consequences of their decision

I don't know about you, but I have been screwed in many places of my life with probabilities of less than 1%. People tend to underestimate the gravity of that risk when it comes to something as serious as drug overdose. People are psychologically biased. We always think it can't be us, until it is

If 12 g covers me even for that extra 0.X%, why deny it and claim the 2 bottle argument is financially motivated. People pay for home/auto insurance their whole lives for risks that are less than 1/100 (sometimes as little as 1/100000). The somewhat stochastic nature of probability can really bite you in the ass

That's all I wanted to say

Keep in mind that people on this website are in many different circumstances.
So we have a duty to try to help people by trying to get accurate information.
This may enable people with a lower budget to still achieve their goals....

I will confess that some of the comments on the Derek Humphry blog do sound convincing, but (in my view) we cannot rule out the possibility of financial motivation.
So there seems to be some disconnect between exit and that blog.
Without researching further it is hard to know where the truth lies between the two extremes.

 

[Berlin76]

Um... how do people like David Humphrey make more money on people getting 2 rather than 1 bottle of N from A (or some other Latin American country)?
He (and I!) are only pointing this out to make sure people know what they are getting into. To make sure they are safe in the consequences of their decision

I don't know about you, but I have been screwed in many places of my life with probabilities of less than 1%. People tend to underestimate the gravity of that risk when it comes to something as serious as drug overdose. People are psychologically biased. We always think it can't be us, until it is

If 12 g covers me even for that extra 0.X%, why deny it and claim the 2 bottle argument is financially motivated. People pay for home/auto insurance their whole lives for risks that are less than 1/100 (sometimes as little as 1/100000). The somewhat stochastic nature of probability can really bite you in the ass

That's all I wanted to say

.
Totally agree with you.
But the 2 bottles the amount of N it contains is almost the same as the euthanasia organizations use.
They use 15grams so always this way the play it safe.
Opioids can extend the coma so its up to people to exam their health and drug use or medical state

They even have a backup amount that they administer after 2 hours if the person is in coma to long.