terry_a_davis
Warlock
- Dec 28, 2019
- 707
I think dignitas use 15g of N for euthanasia, i don't think they vary the doseage by bodyweight from what i've read online.
Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
Yes, but my anxiety wants to make sure, and also I don't know if it's matter but I'm young (19)
I know it will be enough, I just don't get it
a.n.kirillov
velle non discitur
- Nov 17, 2019
- 1,831
I'll just second whoever said that 15g were enough. 15g will be enough unless you are an alcoholic or benzo dependant.
Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
I'm taking benzo in daily basis (for now clonex and sometimes diazepam one pill a day)
So it won't be enough?
a.n.kirillov
velle non discitur
- Nov 17, 2019
- 1,831
Sorry I have no experience with benzos. There is a cross tolerance issue with ethanol, benzos and barbiturates.
I can only imagine you would need to be a real alcoholic for it to be a problem; but if I remember correctly, most resources state that you should get off benzos before using N. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.
15g is a lot though. It is almost twice the amount Nitschke claims to be sufficient for the elderly, lightweight patient.
Edit: it is more than twice the amount (one bottle from A which is 6g)
Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
I guess I can stop using benzo two weeks before I'll ctb
I hope it will be enough time
a.n.kirillov
velle non discitur
- Nov 17, 2019
- 1,831
I don't remember the name of the ressource; the other big one that is not the PPeH. If you search 'N cross tolerance' on the forum, you will come across some threads. I'm not sure whether two weeks would be enough to reset a GABA tolerance. Probably it would take more, a month or six weeks from my own experience with alcohol.
How heavy is your benzo intake? Can you translate it into alcohol, so that I understand? Is it like one or two beers a day? or more like the equivalent of a bottle of vodka a day, a six pack per night?
.
But the weight, with 15g, I don't think it will be a problem.
Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
I'm not really depends on benzo, I just want to feel better, and especially to sleep a lot
I just left a lot of diazepam from my others plan, so it's a waste not to use it
enjolras
Dead are useless if not to love the living more
- Feb 13, 2020
- 1,293
"The guide to a self-chosen humane death". It recommends 2 weeks of withdrawal plus 2/3 weeks sober in general.
Normal dose of Valium is in the range of 5-20mg / day for anxiety or 20mg-40mg / day for psychiatry. Typical short treatment during 2-3 months.
@AcornUnderground seems to take another benzo @ 0.5mg. Xanax ? Then 1-2mg daily, sparsed up to 3 times in the journey is normal, again for 2-3 months max advised (under no special circumstances...)
Found this if it helps heavy users with conservative planning ideas https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm
Normal dose of Valium is in the range of 5-20mg / day for anxiety or 20mg-40mg / day for psychiatry. Typical short treatment during 2-3 months.
@AcornUnderground seems to take another benzo @ 0.5mg. Xanax ? Then 1-2mg daily, sparsed up to 3 times in the journey is normal, again for 2-3 months max advised (under no special circumstances...)
Found this if it helps heavy users with conservative planning ideas https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm
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You don't need it. Barbs, benzos, patches, and alcohol already way overkill.
While detox ideal, you aren't getting off benzos and F easily. Benzo withdrawal can kill you. F withdrawal will make you wish you were
While detox ideal, you aren't getting off benzos and F easily. Benzo withdrawal can kill you. F withdrawal will make you wish you were
Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
I like to hear your opinion on that-
en.m.wikipedia.org
and here is an article about two suicide with Nembutal and Dilantin
Phenytoin/pentobarbital - Wikipedia
and here is an article about two suicide with Nembutal and Dilantin
Abstract
We describe two suicides due to phenytoin and pentobarbital intoxications using a commercially available veterinary euthanasia preparation (Euthasol), which is a combination of the two medications. The role of the circumstances and toxicology findings and testing are described. The detection of this combination of medications should cause the death investigator to consider suicide and to look for occupational access to this preparation.
Introduction
Intentional intoxications are common methods of suicide. These intoxications may include prescription or over-the-counter medications and/or other toxic substances. Most of these substances are administered by ingestion. People with the intent to commit suicide often will use a method that is readily available. We describe two fatalities due to intentional intoxications by pentobarbital and phenytoin. These two medications are combined in a single injectable preparation that is commercially available to euthanize animals. The detection of these two substances should alert the medical examiner/coroner (ME/C) to the likelihood of suicide and the need to search for the source of the drug. An occupational history of laboratory research or veterinarian work may point toward the source of the drug.
CASE 1
A 34-year-old woman with a history of stage IV breast cancer metastatic to brain and spine was admitted to the hospital for nausea and poor oral intake. After refusing further treatment she was hydrated with intravenous fluids and prepared for discharge to home. On the evening prior to discharge, a group of friends visited. She was found unresponsive by a nurse shortly after the visitors' departure. She had been well-appearing and active earlier in the evening. Her past medical history included depression with suicidal ideation. An external examination revealed no trauma. She had a peripheral intravenous catheter and had been receiving normal saline. Her prescribed medications included oxycodone, omeprazole, dexamethasone, and fluoxetine. Autopsy subclavian blood was collected for toxicological analysis, which detected pentobarbital (285.8 mg/L) and phenytoin (34.0 mg/L) in addition to the prescribed oxycodone (<0.1 mg/L), fluoxetine (0.7 mg/L), and its active metabolite norfluoxetine (0.4 mg/L).
Further investigation revealed that she had worked in a veterinarian's office and the visiting friends included former coworkers. A pentobarbitol/phenytoin product was used in this office to euthanize animals. No hypodermic syringes were identified in the room.
The cause of death was certified as acute intoxication by the combined effects of pentobarbital and phenytoin. The manner of death was homicide. The "how injury occurred" section was "direct or assisted intravenous administration of the above listed agents."
CASE 2
A 41-year-old male was found dead on a couch in his apartment during a well-being check. His past medical history included hypertension and a remote history of depression after the deaths of his parents. Scene investigation revealed an open bottle of liquor in the kitchen, but no drugs or medications. There was no history of a seizure disorder.
At autopsy, the 72 in, 220 lb (body mass index, 29.8 kg/m2) man had pink posterior fixed lividity and marbling of the lower abdomen with skin slippage. On internal examination, the heart weighed 490 g; the coronary arteries and myocardium were unremarkable. The right and left lungs weighed 870 g and 740 g, respectively.
Initial toxicological analysis of the decedent's blood detected ethanol (101 mg/dL) and pentobarbital (23 mg/L). Subsequent investigation revealed that the decedent worked in an academic laboratory with mice. When the history of decedent's laboratory work was obtained, additional testing for phenytoin was requested. This expanded analysis detected phenytoin (2.7 mg/L).
Further investigation revealed that a pentobarbital/phenytoin product was used in his research laboratory to euthanize mice. The decedent had access to this medication and had created cover stories for his family and colleagues to avoid rescue. No hypodermic syringes were identified in the apartment.
The cause of death was certified as acute pentobarbital and phenytoin intoxication. The manner of death was suicide.
Discussion
Pentobarbital is a short-acting barbiturate with sedative and hypnotic effects due to potentiation of GABA receptors; it is prescribed for sleep induction and is usually given orally due to effective gastrointestinal tract absorption. When taken orally, the plasma concentration of pentobarbital peaks in 30–60 minutes while the hypnotic effect peaks in one to four hours; when given intravenously, the onset of action occurs within one minute and peak plasma concentrations occur by 15 minutes. Plasma concentrations greater than 10 mg/L may result in deep coma while plasma concentrations above 30 mg/L are potentially lethal. Following absorption, the distribution of barbiturates depends upon lipid solubility with distribution to all bodily tissues and fluids. The highest concentrations are in the liver and brain (1).
Phenytoin is an inhibitor of voltage-gated sodium channels and is commonly used as an anticonvulsant for seizures. It also has indications for use as an anti-arrhythmic and muscle relaxant, however, use has been limited due to a narrow therapeutic window and adverse effects including atrioventricular conduction disruption, ventricular fibrillation, central nervous system depression (somnolence, confusion, slurred speech, decreased coordination), toxic hepatitis, gingival hyperplasia, pancytopenia, megaloblastic anemia, and lymph node hyperplasia, among others (2).
Rates of absorption vary among manufacturers, but Phenytoin and its sodium salt are usually slowly and completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract allowing for oral administration. Approximately 1% of therapeutic doses are excreted unchanged in urine while in toxic doses, up to 10% may appear unchanged in urine. Following absorption, phenytoin is distributed into cerebrospinal fluid, saliva, semen, gastrointestinal fluids, and bile (3). Peak plasma concentrations in living subjects following a single 100 mg oral dose of phenytoin of 1.6–2.8 mg/L were observed two to four hours after ingestion (2). Death due to cardiac arrhythmias following rapid intravenous injection have been reported.
Euthasol is a commercial preparation used in the rapid, painless euthanasia of canines and is not approved for human use. Federal law restricts use of this drug to licensed veterinarians. It is given intravenously and 1 mL contains an admixture of pentobarbital sodium (390 mg), phenytoin sodium (50 mg), 10% ethyl alcohol, 18% propylene glycol, rhodamine B (0.003688 mg), and benzyl alcohol (preservative). Euthanasia occurs through respiratory arrest and circulatory collapse resulting in cerebral ischemia/hypoxia prior to cessation of cardiac activity. At anesthetic doses, there is rapid onset of unconsciousness. At elevated doses, there is depression of medullary respiratory and vasomotor centers. Rapid intravenous administration of phenytoin sodium may result in cardiovascular collapse and/or central nervous system depression including hypotension. The typical clinical sequence following intravenous injection of Euthasol results in unconsciousness within seconds (4). This is rapidly followed by deep anesthesia and hypotension. On the order of seconds later, breathing stops, encephalographic activity becomes isoelectric, and then cardiac activity ceases (4). Phenytoin sodium has cardiotoxic properties that hasten the cessation of electrical activity of the heart. Ethanol was not detected in the first instance, which could be dependent on the dose given and/or the levels of detection. Propylene glycol testing was not performed.
The postmortem blood concentrations in case 1 were markedly high. The concentrations in case 2 were not as high. This may be related to the route of administration or the different postmortem interval. Given that patient 1 was receiving intravenous fluid, it is likely that the medication was administered by this route. The precise route of administration in patient 2 is unknown. A determination of the death due to an intoxication requires three factors. First, the autopsy must fail to disclose a disease or physical injury whose extent or severity is inconsistent with life. Second, the concentrations must be in the range typically encountered in such deaths. And third, the history and circumstances must be consistent with a death due to an intoxication.
For case 1, there was advanced disease that was capable of explaining death. The compelling circumstances and toxicology results, however, trump this disease. The circumstances and toxicology result support an intoxication death.
A nonfatal accidental intoxication by phenytoin and phenobarbital (not pentobarbital) has been reported (5). In this instance, a mentally challenged woman had taken an unknown amount of a friend's medications. Despite treatment with gastric lavage, activated charcoal, and magnesium citrate, the patient's condition worsened over the ensuing days with increased lethargy and ultimately coma. Her peak serum phenytoin concentration during medical treatment was 95 mg/L.
Depending upon the extent of toxicology screening, phenytoin may not be detected while pentobarbital may. Forensic toxicology analysis often includes a barbiturate screen with an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay but does not always screen for phenytoin. Phenytoin is detected by high performance liquid chromatography. Therefore, it is important to be familiar with specific laboratory protocols with regard to what is and what is not included in routine screening. As in the second case, identification of pentobarbital without phenytoin may occur because phenytoin testing was not included in the initial screen. In case 1, the in-house laboratory's protocol included phenytoin screening in all cases. Since forensic toxicology laboratories may offer different testing panels (basic, advanced, expanded), it is important that forensic pathologists and toxicologists are aware of each other's limitations and concerns. Given the marked shift in prescriptions for benzodiazepines instead of barbiturates, it has become uncommon to detect pentobarbital in forensic practice. The detection of pentobarbital should result in consideration of phenytoin testing and the possibility of a suicide.
The first case was certified as a homicide. This was because there was direct or assisted administration of the drug by another. Even though the patient may have been willing to commit suicide, this was a criminal act at the hand of another that resulted in death, which lead to the homicide certification.
A variety of other methods are approved for euthanasia in animals (6). Tributame euthanasia solution is a combination of embutramide, chloroquine, and lidocaine. It has a teal blue color with a bittering agent to discourage ingestion. Embutramide is a derivative of γ-hydroxybutyrate with marked cardiovascular effects. Chloroquine, an antimalarial drug, is added to hasten the cardiovascular effects of embutramide as it also has depressive cardiovascular effects.
References
We describe two suicides due to phenytoin and pentobarbital intoxications using a commercially available veterinary euthanasia preparation (Euthasol), which is a combination of the two medications. The role of the circumstances and toxicology findings and testing are described. The detection of this combination of medications should cause the death investigator to consider suicide and to look for occupational access to this preparation.
Introduction
Intentional intoxications are common methods of suicide. These intoxications may include prescription or over-the-counter medications and/or other toxic substances. Most of these substances are administered by ingestion. People with the intent to commit suicide often will use a method that is readily available. We describe two fatalities due to intentional intoxications by pentobarbital and phenytoin. These two medications are combined in a single injectable preparation that is commercially available to euthanize animals. The detection of these two substances should alert the medical examiner/coroner (ME/C) to the likelihood of suicide and the need to search for the source of the drug. An occupational history of laboratory research or veterinarian work may point toward the source of the drug.
CASE 1
A 34-year-old woman with a history of stage IV breast cancer metastatic to brain and spine was admitted to the hospital for nausea and poor oral intake. After refusing further treatment she was hydrated with intravenous fluids and prepared for discharge to home. On the evening prior to discharge, a group of friends visited. She was found unresponsive by a nurse shortly after the visitors' departure. She had been well-appearing and active earlier in the evening. Her past medical history included depression with suicidal ideation. An external examination revealed no trauma. She had a peripheral intravenous catheter and had been receiving normal saline. Her prescribed medications included oxycodone, omeprazole, dexamethasone, and fluoxetine. Autopsy subclavian blood was collected for toxicological analysis, which detected pentobarbital (285.8 mg/L) and phenytoin (34.0 mg/L) in addition to the prescribed oxycodone (<0.1 mg/L), fluoxetine (0.7 mg/L), and its active metabolite norfluoxetine (0.4 mg/L).
Further investigation revealed that she had worked in a veterinarian's office and the visiting friends included former coworkers. A pentobarbitol/phenytoin product was used in this office to euthanize animals. No hypodermic syringes were identified in the room.
The cause of death was certified as acute intoxication by the combined effects of pentobarbital and phenytoin. The manner of death was homicide. The "how injury occurred" section was "direct or assisted intravenous administration of the above listed agents."
CASE 2
A 41-year-old male was found dead on a couch in his apartment during a well-being check. His past medical history included hypertension and a remote history of depression after the deaths of his parents. Scene investigation revealed an open bottle of liquor in the kitchen, but no drugs or medications. There was no history of a seizure disorder.
At autopsy, the 72 in, 220 lb (body mass index, 29.8 kg/m2) man had pink posterior fixed lividity and marbling of the lower abdomen with skin slippage. On internal examination, the heart weighed 490 g; the coronary arteries and myocardium were unremarkable. The right and left lungs weighed 870 g and 740 g, respectively.
Initial toxicological analysis of the decedent's blood detected ethanol (101 mg/dL) and pentobarbital (23 mg/L). Subsequent investigation revealed that the decedent worked in an academic laboratory with mice. When the history of decedent's laboratory work was obtained, additional testing for phenytoin was requested. This expanded analysis detected phenytoin (2.7 mg/L).
Further investigation revealed that a pentobarbital/phenytoin product was used in his research laboratory to euthanize mice. The decedent had access to this medication and had created cover stories for his family and colleagues to avoid rescue. No hypodermic syringes were identified in the apartment.
The cause of death was certified as acute pentobarbital and phenytoin intoxication. The manner of death was suicide.
Discussion
Pentobarbital is a short-acting barbiturate with sedative and hypnotic effects due to potentiation of GABA receptors; it is prescribed for sleep induction and is usually given orally due to effective gastrointestinal tract absorption. When taken orally, the plasma concentration of pentobarbital peaks in 30–60 minutes while the hypnotic effect peaks in one to four hours; when given intravenously, the onset of action occurs within one minute and peak plasma concentrations occur by 15 minutes. Plasma concentrations greater than 10 mg/L may result in deep coma while plasma concentrations above 30 mg/L are potentially lethal. Following absorption, the distribution of barbiturates depends upon lipid solubility with distribution to all bodily tissues and fluids. The highest concentrations are in the liver and brain (1).
Phenytoin is an inhibitor of voltage-gated sodium channels and is commonly used as an anticonvulsant for seizures. It also has indications for use as an anti-arrhythmic and muscle relaxant, however, use has been limited due to a narrow therapeutic window and adverse effects including atrioventricular conduction disruption, ventricular fibrillation, central nervous system depression (somnolence, confusion, slurred speech, decreased coordination), toxic hepatitis, gingival hyperplasia, pancytopenia, megaloblastic anemia, and lymph node hyperplasia, among others (2).
Rates of absorption vary among manufacturers, but Phenytoin and its sodium salt are usually slowly and completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract allowing for oral administration. Approximately 1% of therapeutic doses are excreted unchanged in urine while in toxic doses, up to 10% may appear unchanged in urine. Following absorption, phenytoin is distributed into cerebrospinal fluid, saliva, semen, gastrointestinal fluids, and bile (3). Peak plasma concentrations in living subjects following a single 100 mg oral dose of phenytoin of 1.6–2.8 mg/L were observed two to four hours after ingestion (2). Death due to cardiac arrhythmias following rapid intravenous injection have been reported.
Euthasol is a commercial preparation used in the rapid, painless euthanasia of canines and is not approved for human use. Federal law restricts use of this drug to licensed veterinarians. It is given intravenously and 1 mL contains an admixture of pentobarbital sodium (390 mg), phenytoin sodium (50 mg), 10% ethyl alcohol, 18% propylene glycol, rhodamine B (0.003688 mg), and benzyl alcohol (preservative). Euthanasia occurs through respiratory arrest and circulatory collapse resulting in cerebral ischemia/hypoxia prior to cessation of cardiac activity. At anesthetic doses, there is rapid onset of unconsciousness. At elevated doses, there is depression of medullary respiratory and vasomotor centers. Rapid intravenous administration of phenytoin sodium may result in cardiovascular collapse and/or central nervous system depression including hypotension. The typical clinical sequence following intravenous injection of Euthasol results in unconsciousness within seconds (4). This is rapidly followed by deep anesthesia and hypotension. On the order of seconds later, breathing stops, encephalographic activity becomes isoelectric, and then cardiac activity ceases (4). Phenytoin sodium has cardiotoxic properties that hasten the cessation of electrical activity of the heart. Ethanol was not detected in the first instance, which could be dependent on the dose given and/or the levels of detection. Propylene glycol testing was not performed.
The postmortem blood concentrations in case 1 were markedly high. The concentrations in case 2 were not as high. This may be related to the route of administration or the different postmortem interval. Given that patient 1 was receiving intravenous fluid, it is likely that the medication was administered by this route. The precise route of administration in patient 2 is unknown. A determination of the death due to an intoxication requires three factors. First, the autopsy must fail to disclose a disease or physical injury whose extent or severity is inconsistent with life. Second, the concentrations must be in the range typically encountered in such deaths. And third, the history and circumstances must be consistent with a death due to an intoxication.
For case 1, there was advanced disease that was capable of explaining death. The compelling circumstances and toxicology results, however, trump this disease. The circumstances and toxicology result support an intoxication death.
A nonfatal accidental intoxication by phenytoin and phenobarbital (not pentobarbital) has been reported (5). In this instance, a mentally challenged woman had taken an unknown amount of a friend's medications. Despite treatment with gastric lavage, activated charcoal, and magnesium citrate, the patient's condition worsened over the ensuing days with increased lethargy and ultimately coma. Her peak serum phenytoin concentration during medical treatment was 95 mg/L.
Depending upon the extent of toxicology screening, phenytoin may not be detected while pentobarbital may. Forensic toxicology analysis often includes a barbiturate screen with an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay but does not always screen for phenytoin. Phenytoin is detected by high performance liquid chromatography. Therefore, it is important to be familiar with specific laboratory protocols with regard to what is and what is not included in routine screening. As in the second case, identification of pentobarbital without phenytoin may occur because phenytoin testing was not included in the initial screen. In case 1, the in-house laboratory's protocol included phenytoin screening in all cases. Since forensic toxicology laboratories may offer different testing panels (basic, advanced, expanded), it is important that forensic pathologists and toxicologists are aware of each other's limitations and concerns. Given the marked shift in prescriptions for benzodiazepines instead of barbiturates, it has become uncommon to detect pentobarbital in forensic practice. The detection of pentobarbital should result in consideration of phenytoin testing and the possibility of a suicide.
The first case was certified as a homicide. This was because there was direct or assisted administration of the drug by another. Even though the patient may have been willing to commit suicide, this was a criminal act at the hand of another that resulted in death, which lead to the homicide certification.
A variety of other methods are approved for euthanasia in animals (6). Tributame euthanasia solution is a combination of embutramide, chloroquine, and lidocaine. It has a teal blue color with a bittering agent to discourage ingestion. Embutramide is a derivative of γ-hydroxybutyrate with marked cardiovascular effects. Chloroquine, an antimalarial drug, is added to hasten the cardiovascular effects of embutramide as it also has depressive cardiovascular effects.
References
| 1. | PubChem: open chemistry database [Internet]. Bethesda (MD): U.S. National Library of Medicine; c2014. Compound summary for CID 4737: pentobarbital; [cited 2014 Dec 15]. Available from: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/pentobarbital#section=Top. Google Scholar |
| 2. | Baselt, R. . Disposition of toxic drugs and chemicals in man. 7th ed. Foster City (CA): Biomedical Publications; 2004. 1254 p. Google Scholar |
| 3. | PubChem: open chemistry database [Internet]. Bethesda (MD): U.S. National Library of Medicine; c2014. Compound summary for CID 1775: phenytoin; [cited 2014 Dec 15]. Available from: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/phenytoin. Google Scholar |
| 4. | Euthasol (Euthanasia Solution) Package Insert. Fort Worth (TX): Vir bac AH, Inc; 2014 Google Scholar |
| 5. | Albertson, T.E. Fisher, C.J. Shragg, T.A. Baselt, R.C. . A prolonged severe intoxication after ingestion of phenytoin and phenobarbital. West J Med. 1981; 135(5): 418–22. PMID: 7340137. PMCID: PMC1273279. Google Scholar |
| 6. | Leary, S. Underwood, W Anthony, R. AVMA Guidelines for the Euthanasia of Animals. Schaumburg (IL): American Veterinary Medical Association; 2013. 102 p. Google Scholar |
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enjolras
Dead are useless if not to love the living more
- Feb 13, 2020
- 1,293
No opinion about your query regarding Dilantin. You should research its toxicity separately imho.
I'm noting that 12g of N from Euthasol would result in about 1.5g of Dilantin, which you can compare to the amount the PPH advises, except one is dispatched through IV, the other one orally (actually, I don't know if this remark makes sense at all, since 12g is arbitrary already)
"However, euthanasia may be delayed in dogs that have deficient cardiac and circulatory function."
My blood circulation must not be the best due to inactivity. Sometimes, I get cold, tingling hands or slightly purplish foot. Now you make me regret not to be an olympic athlete :p
I'm noting that 12g of N from Euthasol would result in about 1.5g of Dilantin, which you can compare to the amount the PPH advises, except one is dispatched through IV, the other one orally (actually, I don't know if this remark makes sense at all, since 12g is arbitrary already)
"However, euthanasia may be delayed in dogs that have deficient cardiac and circulatory function."
My blood circulation must not be the best due to inactivity. Sometimes, I get cold, tingling hands or slightly purplish foot. Now you make me regret not to be an olympic athlete :p
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4 grams of F? Expect to pay a lot. 2-3mg is already overkill... test it first of course.
I wish. i cold turkey'd off a high benzo regular dose and absolutely nothing happened. No negative, no positive. Bit of insomnia for a few days. Sadly, didn't die.
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If that is all you went through, you are very very fortunate. Death by DT is not pleasant. Obviously most don't die from etoh or benzo withdrawal, but serious issues and Repeated seizures, sometimes nearly intractable unless using a replacement agent to taper, are common.
To OP, I don't believe you will find any case in the literature where anyone has survived a 15g dosage, providing it is all consumed before unconsciousness, and certainly not a case where antiemetics were used. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
benzos and barbiturates are potentiators at the gaba ionophore (one keeps the chloride channel open more frequently and one keeps it open longer).
To OP, I don't believe you will find any case in the literature where anyone has survived a 15g dosage, providing it is all consumed before unconsciousness, and certainly not a case where antiemetics were used. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
benzos and barbiturates are potentiators at the gaba ionophore (one keeps the chloride channel open more frequently and one keeps it open longer).
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Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
I don't want to take any chances, I want to make it lethal as possible.
So I'm trying to check the rumors that Dilantin make Nembutal less peaceful
Also, I already have fentanyl patches and it will be a waste not using them.
There is no fentanyl on empire anymore, so it doesn't really matter now, but last time, 4 grams for 300$
What are the symptoms of Dilantin toxicity?
Neurotoxicity
The neurotoxic effects are concentration dependent and can range from mild nystagmus to ataxia, slurred speech, vomiting, lethargy and eventually coma and death. Paradoxically, at very high concentrations, phenytoin can lead to seizures. Symptoms correlate well with the unbound plasma phenytoin concentration. However, this laboratory value is seldom obtained. The following is a loose correlation of side effects with total plasma phenytoin concentrations (the value obtained in most laboratories):
- Fast, uncontrollable eye movements or double vision
- Dizziness, drowsiness, or confusion
- Lack of coordination of fingers, hands, arms, legs, or body
- Slurred speech
- Nausea or vomiting
- Decreased appetite, decreased activity, abdominal bloating, or irregular jerky movements in children or the elderly
Neurotoxicity
The neurotoxic effects are concentration dependent and can range from mild nystagmus to ataxia, slurred speech, vomiting, lethargy and eventually coma and death. Paradoxically, at very high concentrations, phenytoin can lead to seizures. Symptoms correlate well with the unbound plasma phenytoin concentration. However, this laboratory value is seldom obtained. The following is a loose correlation of side effects with total plasma phenytoin concentrations (the value obtained in most laboratories):
- Less than 10 mg/L: Rare side effects
- Ten to 20 mg/L: Occasional mild horizontal nystagmus on lateral gaze
- Twenty to 30 mg/L: Nystagmus
- Thirty to 40 mg/L: Ataxia, slurred speech, tremor, nausea, and vomiting
- Forty to 50 mg/L: Lethargy, confusion, hyperactivity
- Greater than 50 mg/L: Coma and seizures
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Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
I don't want to relate that, because it was a very bad experience.
If your looking for N, look after C or A only, good luck
Im thinking about going to Peru or Bolivia....it seems contact with C or A is just impossibe...and they don't seem to ship to south america
a.n.kirillov
velle non discitur
- Nov 17, 2019
- 1,831
You got lucky. Gaba withdrawal can be horrifying. I didn't experience the shakes and was freaking out. It took over six months to feel normal again.
They are both GABAergic CNS depressants. The former accounts for the cross tolerance.
Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
Some people tried and Succeeded, and others tried and failed
I think @GoodPersonEffed tried? If I remember correct in Mexico? or it was someone else?
Im on benzos everyday and could not stop taking them at this point.
I don't think that would effect the overdose of N though. Would it?
enjolras
Dead are useless if not to love the living more
- Feb 13, 2020
- 1,293
I contacted A to check if he would ship to an hotel or post office within Mexico during a vacation trip. No reply confirmed to this query.
Traveling abroad to a foreign country to receive a package appears uncomfortable due to the unknown legal risk as a foreigner.
A trick may be to use a mail forward company outside MX/South America, then order the transfer back to home country. I donno if A would realize the uncommon address at a company and freak out. Maybe he would refuse that too, maybe not
Traveling abroad to a foreign country to receive a package appears uncomfortable due to the unknown legal risk as a foreigner.
A trick may be to use a mail forward company outside MX/South America, then order the transfer back to home country. I donno if A would realize the uncommon address at a company and freak out. Maybe he would refuse that too, maybe not
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GoodPersonEffed
Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
- Jan 11, 2020
- 6,727
I tried and failed, another guy tried and succeeded. I would link the thread but the search function isn't working and I didn't start the thread, I also don't remember the title. Once the search function works again, use the search terms "Juarez Nembutal bar," the OP is about a guy with BPD to went to Juarez and obtained N. I also posted on that thread about my experience not obtaining, as well as my suggestions for how to go about seeking N in Mexico if one were to fly into Mexico City.
If a persons weight were an issue, I believe books written on the subject of self deliverance would have mentioned it.
a.n.kirillov
velle non discitur
- Nov 17, 2019
- 1,831
Search (yeah, I know) the forum for 'N cross tolerance'. There have been several threads with sources.
Yomyom
Darker dearie, much darker
- Feb 5, 2020
- 923
They mentioned it, but the information on the book is for old sick people, not young and healthy
So that information is unknown
I think they have only mentioned that less would be leathal for a sick person.
But its not just low weight. There bodies are already shutting down naturally from an illness when they take a leathal dose.
enjolras
Dead are useless if not to love the living more
- Feb 13, 2020
- 1,293
Apparently, the weight is taken into account in the Netherlands.
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/a-dignified-death-2018-t-is-goed-zo-2018.35230/
He was given +50% of the normal dose, which I assume must have resulted in 18g instead of 12g. Yet, still, his "time to coma" was reported as slow in the notes of the director (and as shown in the motion pictures)
This seems to go hand in hand with the Wikipedia article of Yomyom
I'm unsure if it has an incidence on time to death as well. In NL, they wouldn't let it happen and intervene to stop a long comatose phase. The movie doesn't mention it, but maybe that's what happened to the protagonist.
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