Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
In the peaceful pill book and dignified dying 6 grams is enough
In final exit 9 grams is enough

In most organizations they use 15-25 grams

People here probably will use between
12-15 grams (depending from who you bought A or C)

I'll have around 15 clean grams I think to add 2 grams Dilantin
 
Mud.

Mud.

Arcanist
Oct 27, 2018
403
In the Netherlands 9/10 grams of pentobarbital was the standard for about a decade with a zero fail rate. Many people that receive euthanasia in the Netherlands are chronically/terminally ill people that are on ultra high doses of pain medication and benzos. They simply cannot quit.

These days it's 15 grams I believe, but they only upped the dose to speed up the progress. Dignitas & Pegasos in Switzerland administer 15 grams too (with a zero fail rate.)

In my opinion, it's your fear that is searching for ways you could fail. I don't say this to put you down because believe me, I have the same doubts.

But no matter how hard I've tried, I simply haven't found any reliable literature that describes failed cases. I've talked with counsellors of euthanasia organizations and they all say the same. Cross tolerance, obesity, etc. It simply doesn't matter.

15 grams of pentobarbital will kill you. You don't need anything else except for a good meto protocol.
 
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Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
In the Netherlands 9/10 grams of pentobarbital was the standard for about a decade with a zero fail rate. Many people that receive euthanasia in the Netherlands are chronically/terminally ill people that are on ultra high doses of pain medication and benzos. They simply cannot quit.

These days it's 15 grams I believe, but they only upped the dose to speed up the progress. Dignitas & Pegasos in Switzerland administer 15 grams too (with a zero fail rate.)

In my opinion, it's your fear that is searching for ways you could fail. I don't say this to put you down because believe me, I have the same doubts.

But no matter how hard I've tried, I simply haven't found any reliable literature that describes failed cases. I've talked with counsellors of euthanasia organizations and they all say the same. Cross tolerance, obesity, etc. It simply doesn't matter.

15 grams of pentobarbital will kill you. You don't need anything else except for a good meto protocol.
Thanks, that's very relaxing to hear.



In my opinion, it's your fear that is searching for ways you could fail. I don't say this to put you down because believe me, I have the same doubts
Yes, I know, I just can't stop thinking about it.
I think it's too boring for me, so I just keep searching again and again non stop

Thanks again
 
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enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
Each time N details are brought about, there are a handful members who tend to enter in defensive mode or freak out, reassessing that N will be fatal under any circumstances. The humane reaction is backed up by transposing OP's case with the personal one. It's natural, I'm no better.
However, I notice the process of resolution is always the same : despite supposed to talk about nuances, let's forget about them for an instant, for the purpose let's also refer to a situation that is different (supervised vs DIY) not really comparable (no rescue possible + infinite time undisturbed + possible planned interference to ensure a quick death, vs the opposite).
In order to achieve a one-size-fits-all general conclusion, the context is stripped down. The thread slowly slips to forget why it was started in the first place, so we can all move on in peace and turn the lights off.

Besides N in correct dosage and AE, enough time will be also needed. At the Exit forums, it seemed a priority concern amongst elderly members, I'm not sure why it isn't at SS with youngsters. Well, actually, I think I envision why unfortunately. Not the same crowd. Here, persons are mostly depressed, there mostly physically ill, thus the determination plus the attitude towards dealing at matters are different, while uncorrelated to age.

Yomyom or AcornUnderground (querying benzo) particular stakes is never about whether or not a N overdose is lethal after so long but if there could be a time delay to expect when it's done at home in isolation of a medical intervention, to treat the surrounding family, either preventing a rescuing or to avoid the relatives' distress.

Yomyom's "limiting" nuances are : young (resistant), 12 hours, overweight, normal continuous daily benzo use (since how long ? until when ?). Thus, considering to use Dilantin, preferably without pain which it seems nobody has a practical record about. It's only mentioned anecdotally in the PPH (without mention of where the info is sourced, although likely derived from veterinary data). We know the PPH has arguable boundaries when it comes to serious business (peacefulness of SN, ReBreather's experimentation).

Imho OP is right to be meticulous and inclined to study. He had impulses with verifications more than he cared to reveal because nobody would offer the help and answers sought. This is not a normal situation to approve.
It's not okay to have to die with questions unanswered, because we won't all be exposed to the same context.

Exit sometimes prefers you to not know about the dust under the carpet. There's feedback where support is not offered or makes NO sense with contradictions. The PPH is full of filler argumentations lacking coherence. Fuck it! I'm pissed off. Dying or suicidal persons of all horizons should have access to full informative ressources so every hesitation is cleared. Being polite during interactions is not enough. A higher sense of care would be true respect.

I will continue to search what the heck is about this Dilantin stuff. I'm thinking of the pain talk's origin (if true) may hide in the yearly veterinary AVMA guidances for euthanasia.
 
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Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
since how long ? until when ?
Started around two weeks ago, I'm taking every day for now 5 mg diazepam, after that will over I have 10 mg diazepam, once a day, I plan to take them until my time comes

The link to Wikipedia seems like it's have no affect on peace,
I like to hear your opinion on that-

and here is an article about two suicide with Nembutal and Dilantin
Abstract
We describe two suicides due to phenytoin and pentobarbital intoxications using a commercially available veterinary euthanasia preparation (Euthasol), which is a combination of the two medications. The role of the circumstances and toxicology findings and testing are described. The detection of this combination of medications should cause the death investigator to consider suicide and to look for occupational access to this preparation.


Introduction
Intentional intoxications are common methods of suicide. These intoxications may include prescription or over-the-counter medications and/or other toxic substances. Most of these substances are administered by ingestion. People with the intent to commit suicide often will use a method that is readily available. We describe two fatalities due to intentional intoxications by pentobarbital and phenytoin. These two medications are combined in a single injectable preparation that is commercially available to euthanize animals. The detection of these two substances should alert the medical examiner/coroner (ME/C) to the likelihood of suicide and the need to search for the source of the drug. An occupational history of laboratory research or veterinarian work may point toward the source of the drug.
CASE 1
A 34-year-old woman with a history of stage IV breast cancer metastatic to brain and spine was admitted to the hospital for nausea and poor oral intake. After refusing further treatment she was hydrated with intravenous fluids and prepared for discharge to home. On the evening prior to discharge, a group of friends visited. She was found unresponsive by a nurse shortly after the visitors' departure. She had been well-appearing and active earlier in the evening. Her past medical history included depression with suicidal ideation. An external examination revealed no trauma. She had a peripheral intravenous catheter and had been receiving normal saline. Her prescribed medications included oxycodone, omeprazole, dexamethasone, and fluoxetine. Autopsy subclavian blood was collected for toxicological analysis, which detected pentobarbital (285.8 mg/L) and phenytoin (34.0 mg/L) in addition to the prescribed oxycodone (<0.1 mg/L), fluoxetine (0.7 mg/L), and its active metabolite norfluoxetine (0.4 mg/L).
Further investigation revealed that she had worked in a veterinarian's office and the visiting friends included former coworkers. A pentobarbitol/phenytoin product was used in this office to euthanize animals. No hypodermic syringes were identified in the room.
The cause of death was certified as acute intoxication by the combined effects of pentobarbital and phenytoin. The manner of death was homicide. The "how injury occurred" section was "direct or assisted intravenous administration of the above listed agents."
CASE 2
A 41-year-old male was found dead on a couch in his apartment during a well-being check. His past medical history included hypertension and a remote history of depression after the deaths of his parents. Scene investigation revealed an open bottle of liquor in the kitchen, but no drugs or medications. There was no history of a seizure disorder.
At autopsy, the 72 in, 220 lb (body mass index, 29.8 kg/m2) man had pink posterior fixed lividity and marbling of the lower abdomen with skin slippage. On internal examination, the heart weighed 490 g; the coronary arteries and myocardium were unremarkable. The right and left lungs weighed 870 g and 740 g, respectively.
Initial toxicological analysis of the decedent's blood detected ethanol (101 mg/dL) and pentobarbital (23 mg/L). Subsequent investigation revealed that the decedent worked in an academic laboratory with mice. When the history of decedent's laboratory work was obtained, additional testing for phenytoin was requested. This expanded analysis detected phenytoin (2.7 mg/L).
Further investigation revealed that a pentobarbital/phenytoin product was used in his research laboratory to euthanize mice. The decedent had access to this medication and had created cover stories for his family and colleagues to avoid rescue. No hypodermic syringes were identified in the apartment.
The cause of death was certified as acute pentobarbital and phenytoin intoxication. The manner of death was suicide.
Discussion
Pentobarbital is a short-acting barbiturate with sedative and hypnotic effects due to potentiation of GABA receptors; it is prescribed for sleep induction and is usually given orally due to effective gastrointestinal tract absorption. When taken orally, the plasma concentration of pentobarbital peaks in 30–60 minutes while the hypnotic effect peaks in one to four hours; when given intravenously, the onset of action occurs within one minute and peak plasma concentrations occur by 15 minutes. Plasma concentrations greater than 10 mg/L may result in deep coma while plasma concentrations above 30 mg/L are potentially lethal. Following absorption, the distribution of barbiturates depends upon lipid solubility with distribution to all bodily tissues and fluids. The highest concentrations are in the liver and brain (1).
Phenytoin is an inhibitor of voltage-gated sodium channels and is commonly used as an anticonvulsant for seizures. It also has indications for use as an anti-arrhythmic and muscle relaxant, however, use has been limited due to a narrow therapeutic window and adverse effects including atrioventricular conduction disruption, ventricular fibrillation, central nervous system depression (somnolence, confusion, slurred speech, decreased coordination), toxic hepatitis, gingival hyperplasia, pancytopenia, megaloblastic anemia, and lymph node hyperplasia, among others (2).
Rates of absorption vary among manufacturers, but Phenytoin and its sodium salt are usually slowly and completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract allowing for oral administration. Approximately 1% of therapeutic doses are excreted unchanged in urine while in toxic doses, up to 10% may appear unchanged in urine. Following absorption, phenytoin is distributed into cerebrospinal fluid, saliva, semen, gastrointestinal fluids, and bile (3). Peak plasma concentrations in living subjects following a single 100 mg oral dose of phenytoin of 1.6–2.8 mg/L were observed two to four hours after ingestion (2). Death due to cardiac arrhythmias following rapid intravenous injection have been reported.
Euthasol is a commercial preparation used in the rapid, painless euthanasia of canines and is not approved for human use. Federal law restricts use of this drug to licensed veterinarians. It is given intravenously and 1 mL contains an admixture of pentobarbital sodium (390 mg), phenytoin sodium (50 mg), 10% ethyl alcohol, 18% propylene glycol, rhodamine B (0.003688 mg), and benzyl alcohol (preservative). Euthanasia occurs through respiratory arrest and circulatory collapse resulting in cerebral ischemia/hypoxia prior to cessation of cardiac activity. At anesthetic doses, there is rapid onset of unconsciousness. At elevated doses, there is depression of medullary respiratory and vasomotor centers. Rapid intravenous administration of phenytoin sodium may result in cardiovascular collapse and/or central nervous system depression including hypotension. The typical clinical sequence following intravenous injection of Euthasol results in unconsciousness within seconds (4). This is rapidly followed by deep anesthesia and hypotension. On the order of seconds later, breathing stops, encephalographic activity becomes isoelectric, and then cardiac activity ceases (4). Phenytoin sodium has cardiotoxic properties that hasten the cessation of electrical activity of the heart. Ethanol was not detected in the first instance, which could be dependent on the dose given and/or the levels of detection. Propylene glycol testing was not performed.
The postmortem blood concentrations in case 1 were markedly high. The concentrations in case 2 were not as high. This may be related to the route of administration or the different postmortem interval. Given that patient 1 was receiving intravenous fluid, it is likely that the medication was administered by this route. The precise route of administration in patient 2 is unknown. A determination of the death due to an intoxication requires three factors. First, the autopsy must fail to disclose a disease or physical injury whose extent or severity is inconsistent with life. Second, the concentrations must be in the range typically encountered in such deaths. And third, the history and circumstances must be consistent with a death due to an intoxication.
For case 1, there was advanced disease that was capable of explaining death. The compelling circumstances and toxicology results, however, trump this disease. The circumstances and toxicology result support an intoxication death.
A nonfatal accidental intoxication by phenytoin and phenobarbital (not pentobarbital) has been reported (5). In this instance, a mentally challenged woman had taken an unknown amount of a friend's medications. Despite treatment with gastric lavage, activated charcoal, and magnesium citrate, the patient's condition worsened over the ensuing days with increased lethargy and ultimately coma. Her peak serum phenytoin concentration during medical treatment was 95 mg/L.
Depending upon the extent of toxicology screening, phenytoin may not be detected while pentobarbital may. Forensic toxicology analysis often includes a barbiturate screen with an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay but does not always screen for phenytoin. Phenytoin is detected by high performance liquid chromatography. Therefore, it is important to be familiar with specific laboratory protocols with regard to what is and what is not included in routine screening. As in the second case, identification of pentobarbital without phenytoin may occur because phenytoin testing was not included in the initial screen. In case 1, the in-house laboratory's protocol included phenytoin screening in all cases. Since forensic toxicology laboratories may offer different testing panels (basic, advanced, expanded), it is important that forensic pathologists and toxicologists are aware of each other's limitations and concerns. Given the marked shift in prescriptions for benzodiazepines instead of barbiturates, it has become uncommon to detect pentobarbital in forensic practice. The detection of pentobarbital should result in consideration of phenytoin testing and the possibility of a suicide.
The first case was certified as a homicide. This was because there was direct or assisted administration of the drug by another. Even though the patient may have been willing to commit suicide, this was a criminal act at the hand of another that resulted in death, which lead to the homicide certification.
A variety of other methods are approved for euthanasia in animals (6). Tributame euthanasia solution is a combination of embutramide, chloroquine, and lidocaine. It has a teal blue color with a bittering agent to discourage ingestion. Embutramide is a derivative of γ-hydroxybutyrate with marked cardiovascular effects. Chloroquine, an antimalarial drug, is added to hasten the cardiovascular effects of embutramide as it also has depressive cardiovascular effects.
References
1.PubChem: open chemistry database [Internet]. Bethesda (MD): U.S. National Library of Medicine; c2014. Compound summary for CID 4737: pentobarbital; [cited 2014 Dec 15]. Available from: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/pentobarbital#section=Top.
Google Scholar
2.Baselt, R. . Disposition of toxic drugs and chemicals in man. 7th ed. Foster City (CA): Biomedical Publications; 2004. 1254 p.
Google Scholar
3.PubChem: open chemistry database [Internet]. Bethesda (MD): U.S. National Library of Medicine; c2014. Compound summary for CID 1775: phenytoin; [cited 2014 Dec 15]. Available from: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/phenytoin.
Google Scholar
4.Euthasol (Euthanasia Solution) Package Insert. Fort Worth (TX): Vir bac AH, Inc; 2014
Google Scholar
5.Albertson, T.E. Fisher, C.J. Shragg, T.A. Baselt, R.C. . A prolonged severe intoxication after ingestion of phenytoin and phenobarbital. West J Med. 1981; 135(5): 418–22. PMID: 7340137. PMCID: PMC1273279.
Google Scholar
6.Leary, S. Underwood, W Anthony, R. AVMA Guidelines for the Euthanasia of Animals. Schaumburg (IL): American Veterinary Medical Association; 2013. 102 p.
Google Scholar

If it use regularly on animals, I guess it's not really caused any pain.
Anyway, I bought it for at least have the choice, in case my diet won't work

I guess I'll try to ask some veterinarians about this product (hypothetically about the impact on the animals) see what they say
 
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enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
Like I said elsewhere, veterinarians, in specific circumstances, are told to inject only a little N, check that the animals has drifted away to not feel sensations, then inject the rest of the killer dose at a second stage. It seems the procedure to ensure entire peacefulness, maybe cause the IV causes irritation and possibly agitation (barb can cause agitation, just like AE can cause vomiting as a very minor-rare "opposite" side effect)

But again, we should compare apple to apples, not oranges. Oral Dilantin instead of IV could be totally acceptable, even if Euthasol-like would be not appropriate in another scenario.

It's possible to consult previous years, up to many years before. They talk about inhumane practices. That's precisely the duty of improving the general practice from situational feedback.

The veterinary info likely comments strictly IV, so... the only viable option should be Euthasol-like suicides observed while, not after (the cases of your above mentioned reports). Can Exit attest they have observed N+Dilantin patients, like they have observed SN, not ReBreather suicides ? Did they observe SN + Propranolol patients ? Why the fuck aren't they more precise
 
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Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
Here is an answer from a vet
Sorry... I misread that... yes.... phenytoin is in this product... BUT--- it actually helps smooth the experience for the dog. It does not add pain.
I'll explain more.

The high levels of barbiturate in the drug anesthetize the pet first. They become anesthetized the same as you or I would in order to have surgery. They become completely unconscious and cannot feel, see, hear, or experience anything.
The phenytoin kicks in after the pet is anesthetized in order to try to minimize any twitching or movement the pet may experience AFTER they're anesthetized. This is done primarily for the benefit of the owner. The pet is not feeling anything long before the anesthetic overdose kicks in, but if they twitch or move, it can be upsetting to the owner. Phenytoin helps prevent that.
It is NOT painful when used in this combination.

That being said, many pets still experience some degree of breathing changes or even a stretching type of movement when the body dies. This is absolutely NOT pain or a sign of a struggle, but a normal reflex. The pet is deeply anesthetized before this point.

Additionally, many vets will also provide some form of sedation before the Beuthanasia D is administered. Again, the goal is to make the process as smooth and compassionate as possible.
Thank you for wanting what's best for your pet. Your vet wants the same thing.
Thank you for using JustAnswer. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
-Dr. Jo
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
In the peaceful pill book and dignified dying 6 grams is enough
In final exit 9 grams is enough

In most organizations they use 15-25 grams

People here probably will use between
12-15 grams (depending from who you bought A or C)

I'll have around 15 clean grams I think to add 2 grams Dilantin
PN is simply not trustworthy imo. Note how he also either prescribes 6g or, if someone is overweight, 12g. Why the jump from 6g to 12g??
 
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Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
PN is simply not trustworthy imo. Note how he also either prescribes 6g or, if someone is overweight, 12g. Why the jump from 6g to 12g??
Also final exit is not a Reliable source, it's really annoying
 
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BeeLoyal

BeeLoyal

Is Existence Just A Test?
Apr 27, 2020
105
Also final exit is not a Reliable source, it's really annoying
Hey I read this thread, and first of all I want to say, that I wish you the best of luck, hope and peace. Take your time, if you don't feel like going, don't go. Second of all, I hope you're thinking about the Meto (like another user said) I didn't see a reply to this so I wanted to say it again, because forgetting Meto could be very bad.

Peace, my friend
 
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Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
Here is an answer from a vet
Sorry... I misread that... yes.... phenytoin is in this product... BUT--- it actually helps smooth the experience for the dog. It does not add pain.
I'll explain more.

The high levels of barbiturate in the drug anesthetize the pet first. They become anesthetized the same as you or I would in order to have surgery. They become completely unconscious and cannot feel, see, hear, or experience anything.
The phenytoin kicks in after the pet is anesthetized in order to try to minimize any twitching or movement the pet may experience AFTER they're anesthetized. This is done primarily for the benefit of the owner. The pet is not feeling anything long before the anesthetic overdose kicks in, but if they twitch or move, it can be upsetting to the owner. Phenytoin helps prevent that.
It is NOT painful when used in this combination.

That being said, many pets still experience some degree of breathing changes or even a stretching type of movement when the body dies. This is absolutely NOT pain or a sign of a struggle, but a normal reflex. The pet is deeply anesthetized before this point.

Additionally, many vets will also provide some form of sedation before the Beuthanasia D is administered. Again, the goal is to make the process as smooth and compassionate as possible.
Thank you for wanting what's best for your pet. Your vet wants the same thing.
Thank you for using JustAnswer. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
-Dr. Jo
Anyone have any conclusions from that answer?
Could be only in injection?
 
enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
To be sure, find a random cat on the street, accuse him of cat AIDS after a voodoo ceremony to purify his mind, then pour your solution of N + Dilantin through a funnel (cut the cat's nails beforehand), observe. Disclaimer for Stewie fans : joking, let their innocence to these evil creatures.

That being said, many pets still experience some degree of breathing changes or even a stretching type of movement when the body dies. This is absolutely NOT pain or a sign of a struggle, but a normal reflex. The pet is deeply anesthetized before this point.

Additionally, many vets will also provide some form of sedation before the Beuthanasia D is administered. Again, the goal is to make the process as smooth and compassionate as possible.
Thank you for wanting what's best for your pet. Your vet wants the same thing.

This is exactly what happened to my cat 15 years ago. I assisted at his peaceful euthanasia. Calm noticeable breathing patterns until a big final expiration emptying the lungs with air noise and visible thorax up & down + eye pupil and inner eyelids changes + stretching of legs. He was only administered 1 shot, so I conclude no sedation before. Donno if the N was mixed with Dilantin.

Conclusion, what's the thought process of the PPH to include Dilantin to an oral process likely never attended live with a human ? Did PN read accounts of Dilantin adjuncted in vet liquids and Euthasol-like ingestion suicides then thought why not ?
Dilantin is not in Pisa, targeting anaesthesia not euthanasia. Dilantin is not in Dolethal targeting euthanasia. It is included sometimes in other brands.
According to Dr Joe, Dilantin is used for it's anti-seizure anti-convulsant properties to address the wellness of the pet owner so it appears cosmetically flat. He doesn't speak of evidence it also speeds up and potentiate the N action. I would try to read further vet documentation. Since PN doesn't give explanations, why would we trust.
 
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A

Aap

Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,856
I'll put it bluntly regarding Dilantin in veterinary products - it is to change the dea scheduling from Cll to Clll. It's not needed at all from a euthanasia standpoint;it doesn't hurt, but it isn't needed. There is plenty of medical literature regarding Dilantin toxicity in humans to understand what a Toxic phenytoin dose looks like. If European countries add that to N, this is solely for the loved ones there, not for the patient, provided everything is consumed.

A common vet protocol in the US involves non-sterile propofol that would have been wasted followed by pento/phenytoin. Why? Two reasons. The first is that some animals, especially cats can have a very transitory excitatory reaction. Second, given how acidic and concentrated vet euthanasia solutions are, I would expect it burns like fire. If you've ever had propofol, that burns. I suspect extremely concentrated pento burns much worse. These are done for the benefit of the patient primarily and to spare the animal a few seconds of discomfort.

Back to OPs question, N alone is fatal. N plus patches is fatal. There is zero literature that would suggest otherwise. Of course, you can add as many things as you want, but the previous statements hold. A previous poster correctly identified the root of the concern.
 
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Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
I actually thinking maybe to take it as @Berlin76 once described
No its 15 grams

pentobarbitalum natricum 15 g
alcohol 96% v/v 16,2 g (20 ml)
aqua purificata 15 g
propylenglycolum 10,4 g (10 ml)
saccharinum natricum 250 mg
sirupus simplex 65 g
anisi stellati aetheroleum 1 dr
121,85 g (100 m
I'll already have the syrup, soon I'll get my rest of the N.
I think I can get the rest, it won't help to the speed, but it's sound good
 
enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
1C0C1FCA 24FE 4EFC B783 964655256113


Back to OPs question, N alone is fatal. N plus patches is fatal. There is zero literature that would suggest otherwise. Of course, you can add as many things as you want, but the previous statements hold. A previous poster correctly identified the root of the concern.

I wouldn't be that assertive. There have been anecdotal literature regarding developments, although people don't want to hear about it on this board. We're talking DIY. If it was that simple and bulletproof, you would get a doctor's prescription, leave the pharmacy by yourself, and take it at home without accredited assistance. There would be no need of clinics with particular backup procedure.
 
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A

Aap

Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,856
You're seriously suggessting a 15g N dosage, massive fentanyl OD (500-1000 mics/h) plus benzos plus alcohol in an individual who, based on weight, almost certainly has apnea isn't certain? If you have literature to share, do it. I can promise you, you aren't the only one here who values evidence, but at some point, you have to call BS.
 
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enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
4FAC67D2 83D9 4BEE 960B 6CE738904142

There is also recent published data since 10+ years which confirms a possible high variance of time to death, with a (very) rare but extreme tail. Someone doing it at hotel/home can choose to disregard the stats. He/she will have (very) strong positive odds in his favor. But that does not completely exclude that a revival will be impossible after 10 hours if death did not occur and medical treatment is given.
I posted accounts of these various papers (different countries and orgs) at different places of this forum. I'm too lazy to repeat and assembly them all in one place (think I already tried to in a topic from @faust) within one of my longer post that people may not read but skip.

————-

901BB79C E9C2 45F5 B2E8 55924F43EF3D

Melting pot of procedures, treat accordingly. At the 7 days mark, it must be neither capital punishment nor helium. I'm awarding a virtual cookie to whom will find out from extensive lecture. At home, you won't get the neuromuscular blockade of NL. It's incorrect to say every procedural way will be equal. Committing on our own is special
You're seriously suggessting a 15g N dosage, massive fentanyl OD (500-1000 mics/h) plus benzos plus alcohol in an individual who, based on weight, almost certainly has apnea isn't certain? If you have literature to share, do it. I can promise you, you aren't the only one here who values evidence, but at some point, you have to call BS.

I'm not suggesting in this way because I'm not sure that's what he will hold back in the end.
That said, there is another member who explained his overkill intentions with all that weeks ago. I thought it was foolish just due to the fact that mixing so much will potentially increase the chances to vomit. Too much of benzos or alcohol, or opiates can all induce vomitting separately. I'm not certain it is wise additioned, are you ?

However, I'm suggesting that those who don't consider time undisturbed, not taken in charge at clinics with all advantages playing for them, while cumulating aggravating criterias, could be fools yes. Hence why I think OP is more serious than other posters by asking too many questions. The details shouldn't be disregarded imho. There's no guarantee you'll have passed after 2 or 6 hours (generally a big YES, not always). But I'm only entitled to my opinion.
 
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enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
by aggravating criterias, I'll put in the basket :
* not withdrawn from anti-psychotics
* a proven (strong) addiction towards benzos and/or alcohol
* marked weight problem / poor circulatory blood flow
* very young or aged people + female gender + diabete or affective disorder for Meto ...regarding the vomiting risk

2B6875BE 0F1B 42D9 A99B 48B25EE0437B

D332929F 6457 444D AD87 FAFDEBBB1A03
D16A3D37 B0AF 44E9 9F23 34388A9EA91F

28B56863 79D7 4074 8CAF 517FB1F4D668

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I believe that performing Meto tests is primordial if you didn't already and plan AE. For me, 39yo, stat was fine, less so regimen at day 1 (in blue, above, is precisely how I felt. I even called a friend for support! I was unexpectedely feeling so weird very depressed/suicidal and stressed). But at 19yo, you're even more at risk of side-effects, all kinds, not only EPS forms. Anyone below <30yo and/or female on this board should be extra cautious

————

9771E058 4FDD 41FA BC55 FB14A47BF86D

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/metoclopramide-side-effects.36656/
18yo + pain started @ 5/10 (PM) One can read about the complaints by translating the russian language. It was not nice
 
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Aap

Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,856
We don't disagree in principle. I assume everyone taking N will also take an antiemetic. Regarding nausea from opiates, I have never had issues with it, and have more experience than many. I would suspect anyone already on high dose opiates (or benzos) will not experience any, especially if it is not a current issue. I wouldn't touch at home neuromuscular blockade with a 1000 foot pole.

To your point, of course it is important to give adequate time alone.

while I can't prove, I'd Suspect the rare complications are due to incomplete consumption or no antiemetics. Regarding extra pyramidal symptoms....these are exceeding rare from a single dosage of antipsychotics or reglan. I would STRONGLY doubt eps symptoms have EVER been such an issue they make consuming N 40 minutes later impossible (if they have ever even been documented). After 3-5 minutes, unconsciousness usuallyensues from oral N injestion.
 
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enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
I'd Suspect the rare complications are due to incomplete consumption or no antiemetics.

Details must be written somewhere. the 2 dutch papers which served to establish the summary may be available and give further explanation. Also, at this period, they were not giving more than 9g
 
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Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,856
I appreciate your comments and desire to avoid turning this into take N plus the entire contents of the medicine cabinet and hope for the best as well as evidence based approach.
 
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Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
The exit doc said he's never seen someone survive 6.5 grams.
He said a lot of stuff!
He also said that a person with Obicity should take double dose (12 grams).
In Final exit it's 9 grams
But if you ordered from A then you probably have 12 grams, I think it's enough
 
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enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
From the 2020 AVMA guidelines for the euthanasia of animals

4BE9989A EAB7 4170 AD34 F3485C582EE7

This line is positive / reassuring
 
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Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,856
Agreed. The purpose in vet products is to change the scheduling. (These are given IV). The Combo acts QUICKLY, and I mean fast.

In humans, (referring to oral administration) the additional agents such as Dilantin, propranolol, or amytriptyline serve to speed death when taken orally but should have minimal impact on time to unconsciousness. this is simplified, as it depends on the dosage and which adjuvant agent is used, but the idea is to reduce time families have to wait.

Even "certain" methods can take some time.

( just as an FYI, You might want to look at some OK executions done with very high doses of midazolam and hydromorohone. If I recall, one took at least 40 minutes after injection. The patient was anethesized, but had agonal breathing for 30-40 minutes.)
 
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enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
so, it seems to resume at, how long a poor blood circulation / overweight could delay the unconsciousness, up to live through the "slow cardiotoxic" effect of Phenytoin Sodium with conscious discomfort ? otherwise all concerns are ruled out, or are they already...
 
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Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,856
Correct, and as I've mentioned I don't know if there is enough evidence to conclusively state that one would be rendered unconscious by SN before the cardiotoxic or neurological side effects of phenytoin kick in. I would suspect the answer is "often" but not "always." From the reports here, I've seen enough variation (or failures) to strongly disbelieve that everyone who takes SN is asleep in 15-20 minutes.

It goes back to the issue of how tricky it would be to time something that usually causes unconsciousness in say 15-60 minutes with something that would be painful if taken at the wrong time.

my personal thought is that amitriptylene is better than propranolol or Dilantin given how sedating It is (And the knowledge that the sedation will come before cardiotoxicity. ) I know people want certainty, but there are so many variables with SN (especially with the potential nausea and vomitting) that can make timing something very difficult (as opposed to something causing sleep in 3-5min.)
 
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enjolras

enjolras

Dead are useless if not to love the living more
Feb 13, 2020
1,293
We're advancing :) let's approach N

This is common data available (for other years, it's possible to edit the URL)

0AC19722 9D65 4039 A81E 50583850DC8B

E4C9B1D5 C8AD 4490 85AC FCA17A6ADE37

Enthusiasts generally take shortcuts, reduce facts, that N's unconsciousness will take no more than 5 minutes (solid median time, stated with clarity from general data)

Also, please note the max for time to death (not highlighted). Again, there's this misconception that death with N is guaranteed to be quick
 
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