Discussion Fear of hell despite being non religious?

[Manford]

I don't fear hell because there's no evidence of its existence - I don't consider religious texts as evidence because I believe they're works of fiction written by mortal men. What I do fear is returning here as a conscious being, especially as a wild or farmed animal, whose suffering I imagine to be on average much worse than the average human's. Modern neuroscience gives us good reason to believe that most organisms with a nervous system - potentially even insects - possess some degree of conscious awareness, and with it, the capacity to suffer.

If you don't believe in hell due to lack of evidence then why do you think reincarnation is any more plausible ? That notion comes from hinduism, buddhism and related religions. I think it's only marginally more plausible because so much on the planet, and in the universe, seems to be recycled but that is physical matter. There is no evidence that a soul exists and could reincarnate.

 

[Superdeterminist]

If you don't believe in hell due to lack of evidence then why do you think reincarnation is any more plausible ? That notion comes from hinduism, buddhism and related religions. I think it's only marginally more plausible because so much on the planet, and in the universe, seems to be recycled but that is physical matter. There is no evidence that a soul exists and could reincarnate.

When I say reincarnation I don't refer to any kind of rebirth where a soul or any kind of essence is carried over, I just refer to the chance to experience existence again as another living thing. I don't know of this actually happens and it could be wrong, but I just get a feeling that it will because I'm experiencing life now, so I suspect I'll experience it again (but not 'I', it will be someone/something else).

 

[lost_soul83]

Actually even if you believe in him, you go to hell for comiting suicide. That's what we are told.

I've asked a few christian pastors about this idea that people who commit suicide automatically going to hell and they didn't think that was the case. If you're a good person and you commit suicide you still go to Heaven.

 

[Nexuno]

There is no evidence that a soul exists and could reincarnate.

According to buddhism the soul doesn't exists, actually. Yet they believe in rebirth... Things are way more complicated...

 

[BitterlyAlive_]

Are you worried about going to Hell because of suicide? Because I think people pedal that concept as a way to guilt trip and fear monger others. On that note, I don't think Hell is what most people seem to push either. I think we have this idea that Hell is fire and brimstone because of Dante's Inferno and Catholicism. Plus, the more fear people have the easier it is to control them.

** I'm not knocking Christianity as a whole - I'm a Christian so yeah.... I just can't stand a lot of the people or the general churches. Fake hypocritical people, ignorance and greed...yuck

 

[Buffy5120]

Does anyone in here believe in angels?

 

[Antigonish]

My dad's a preacher, and we both agree I'm going there, eventhough I'm atheist.

 

[262653]

No, and my reasoning is quite simple. The possibility of existence of a God who sends people who died by suicide to hell doesn't bother me because there is also a possibility of existence of a God who sends people to hell who didn't died by suicide. You may say: "No, that's preposterous." I say: "How more so than a God who punishes people who died by suicide?" What makes a Judeo-Christian version of a God more likely to exist? What makes a kind and generous and just God more likely to exist than a sadistic one? What about an absent God? What about a God who is indifferent to the fates of his creations?

I don't think I can accommodate every God there can possibly exist, so I don't see the point in trying. Besides, I think that humans are more capable of making hell real than some deity, considering all the progress in science we as species have made so far.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

The thing about most Abrahamic religions is that indoctrination into your chosen sect often relies on proselytising the vunerable, especially young people or those searching for answers that could potentially ease some of the suffering they experience in life.

Concepts like hell and eternal punishment that are found in Christianity and Islam serve to instill fear and allegiance to God in the hearts of his followers. You have to keep people ensnared in the belief. After all, many people would turn away from theology if there was no allure to the idea of spirituality. For some people, religion brings them comfort, for others, they have been manipulated by fear of the rapture, permanent damnation, the inferno, and feel they have no other choice.

I would not worry about whatever the Bible says about who is going to hell, and who isn't, because no one truly knows. That book has been translated, retranslated, and altered countless times to suit the desires of whatever emporer or King held power at the time. So no one will ever truly know the original scriptures nor their intentions that have been lost to time.

Also, as I mentioned before, these sort of tactics are meant to elicit fear, not put you at ease. When I was very young and was sent to a religious pre-school and kindergarten, it was drilled into our heads what would happen if we didn't accept the word of God- the juxtaposing images of the glitzy streets of heaven versus the eternal torture pit of hell.

As I attended more mandatory church services throughout the early years of my education, we were told even more horrifying things about how God cleansed the earth of all sinners through the flood, but sin was inherent in humanity and we would all need to repent to go to heaven. They even told all the little girls like myself that our anatomy and our role as "mothers and caretakers" was a punishment for the original sin of Eve. Such a loving God to do that to us, huh. That's when I started realizing that there was a malicious side to the church.

Once you realize these things are meant to scare you and aren't for your benefit, it becomes a bit easier to dismiss the threats of divine punishment as inconsequential. I understand how you feel though. It has been years since I was forced to partake in religion, and I still feel anxious about hell sometimes. I cried as a 3 year old over the scriptures in revelations that foretold the rapture, so I am well aware of how much theism can take a toll on your mind.

Hope that you are able to make peace with this and not have to worry so much about the idea of hell. There is no proof that it exists, and even if Christianity held the truths of the world, the bible has been altered so many times, one cannot come to a definite conclusion about certain aspects of it. One would assume a loving creator would not subject people who are hurting and in pain to go to purgatory simply for ending their own life if it were full of suffering.

 

[Deltrus]

If extreme states of pleasure exist then naturally extreme states of displeasure can exist as well. There is no need to bring christianity into this at all. Same thing with reincarnation, if you didn't exist once and then existed later, naturally it can happen again, no need to bring buddha into this.

All the bible gives evidence for is that someone wrote the bible. As for whether the bible was actually a record of higher beings that could create universes, fly, walk on water etc, we have no idea. We have no idea if they are perfect beings as well, walking on water is just evidence for walking on water. There may be beings so powerful that walking on water is not even worth mentioning, that creating universes isn't worth mentioning.

As for buddha, he managed to access very pleasurable states through meditation and made a cult around it, but he also came up with a ton of novel ideas, way more than christianity. The fact that we are all suffering proves that buddha is not some perfect being that achieved perfect truth, if he had real power we would not be suffering, as that was his biggest goal.

I think in the future I will find the universe can be far better, AND far worse than I could have imagined. I may not be a human like samsara entails, I might not even have a shape, but I will be aware at some point.

 

[Nexuno]

The fact that we are all suffering proves that buddha is not some perfect being that achieved perfect truth, if he had real power we would not be suffering, as that was his biggest goal.

This has nothing to do with buddhism, mate. The fact that we are suffering has nothing to do with his personal experience; the "buddha" is not a god with supernatural powers. He was a common human being which - according with the dharma - found a way (a "hack", as I call it) to, ehm, "catch the bus" or, if you like, put an end (Nirvana) to existence and share this knowledge with the us...

The whole idea behind "nirvana" (which means "cessation") - or mokhsa - could be considered as a total and definitive "suicide" of the being in all its possible forms. That's why (besides the modern naive and new-agish idea) buddhism has always being considered as a "school of pessimism". The whole concept of rebirth in buddhism is not something "positive", as many think; the aim of attain nirvana is to put an end to current and future existences.

 

[Wrennie]

it's a constant anxiety i have about ctb. I'll think of drifting into darkness but get interrupted by the thought of hell... if it weren't for that I'd have little problem with ctb. Anyone else feel similar?

I would if not for the fact that I am already of the firm belief that our present reality is the one true Hell.

 

[Deltrus]

This has nothing to do with buddhism, mate. The fact that we are suffering has nothing to do with his personal experience; the "buddha" is not a god with supernatural powers. He was a common human being which - according with the dharma - found a way (a "hack", as I call it) to, ehm, "catch the bus" or, if you like, put an end (Nirvana) to existence and share this knowledge with the us...

The whole idea behind "nirvana" (which means "cessation") - or mokhsa - could be considered as a total and definitive "suicide" of the being in all its possible forms. That's why (besides the modern naive and new-agish idea) buddhism has always being considered as a "school of pessimism". The whole concept of rebirth in buddhism is not something "positive", as many think; the aim of attain nirvana is to put an end to current and future existences.

He does describe himself as a super being. In the diamond sutra he says he will guide every being and non being from suffering and to nibbana. (And at the same time no beings will be liberated because the were not beings to begin with). From what I understand of it, he is supposed to play a central part in guiding anything away from suffering.

Here is a direct quote: "All living beings, whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they are aware or unaware, whether they are not aware or not unaware, all living beings will eventually be led by me to the final Nirvana, the final ending of the cycle of birth and death. And when this unfathomable, infinite number of living beings have all been liberated, in truth not even a single being has actually been liberated."

"Why Subhuti? Because if a disciple still clings to the arbitrary illusions of form or phenomena such as an ego, a personality, a self, a separate person, or a universal self existing eternally, then that person is not an authentic disciple."

Now, that seems to me he thinks himself an enlightened super being(non being) that has understood everything. He thinks of himself as the center of causality (or karma).

In reality, all the evidence he left is that he felt he achieved ultimate happiness and joy and tried to teach how to do it. If his teachings didn't work, he just says we need more lifetimes to understand them. Nowadays if something doesn't work, we think we are wrong. It is the truly more enlightened stance.

What I mean by evidence, is that I can think of many ways for buddha to exist. He could have just gone super manic, he could have been manipulated by even higher, technologically advanced beings, he could have gone through a process completely dependant on factors completely unknown to him, etc etc. Evidence is proof that things that could have happened many ways actually happened one way. Jesus is the same, the bible is not proof things happened one way. There are many possible pasts just like there are many possible futures.

 

[Nexuno]

He does describe himself as a super being.

Nope, this is a misunderstanding.

In the diamond sutra he says he will guide every being and non being from suffering and to nibbana. (And at the same time no beings will be liberated because the were not beings to begin with). From what I understand of it, he is supposed to play a central part in guiding anything away from suffering.

Not him, actually is his teaching, the "dhamma", which is the "perfect understanding" of how things really are: impermanent, unsatisfactory, and "no-self". The idea to pray the buddha to attain something is a vulgarization, and it's in total contrast with his own teaching (one of the central points of buddhism is believing in the total uselessness of rites and/or the external intervention by supernatural beings; actually "gods" are seen as suffering beings destined to death as everyone/everything else, just "big brothers" with bigger problems and nothing more).

The whole process of liberation is up to the single person. The buddha is just providing the means, and nothing more. Sadly, as for all religions, people idealized the teaching and fantasized about an "easy shortcut", delegating the work to liberate themselves to the buddha, which is absolutely ridiculous. Beg, pray the buddha, light candles or burning incense have no practical meaning at all in buddhism.

 

[Deltrus]

Nope, this is a misunderstanding.


Not him, actually is his teaching, the "dhamma", which is the "perfect understanding" of how things really are: impermanent, unsatisfactory, and "no-self". The idea to pray the buddha to attain something is a vulgarization, and it's in total contrast with his own teaching (one of the central points of buddhism is believing in the total uselessness of rites and/or the external intervention by supernatural beings; actually "gods" are seen as suffering beings destined to death as everyone/everything else, just "big brothers" with bigger problems and nothing more).

The whole process of liberation is up to the single person. The buddha is just providing the means, and nothing more. Sadly, as for all religions, people idealized the teaching and fantasized about an "easy shortcut", delegating the work to liberate themselves to the buddha, which is absolutely ridiculous. Beg, pray the buddha, light candles or burning incense have no practical meaning at all in buddhism.

I didn't say anything about praying. I think it is silly for any super being to be prayed to, whatever happens their "will" will be done.

 

[greyhound]

I don't think it's completely unreasonable to be afraid of hell, even if non religious. Literally billions of people believe in it / have believed in it. Somehow we ended up here which is hellish for many people on this forum.

Is it possible that there are worse states of consciousness than this world? I can't rule it out completely. Most of us are suicidal and hoping that by ending it we will transition into a less painful state, either the complete cessation of consciousness or some kind of afterlife realm.

But there aren't really any guarantees that CTB will result in a better reality. I think we're all just sort of crossing our fingers and taking that leap.

 

[Nexuno]

I didn't say anything about praying. I think it is silly for any super being to be prayed to, whatever happens their "will" will be done.

It's just for saying that the buddha is not a supernatural being of any kind and that you cannot expect anything from "him".

Indeed his "will" and dead and gone. Actually the concept of "will" and "nirvana" are opposite one to another.

 

[Manford]

According to buddhism the soul doesn't exists, actually. Yet they believe in rebirth... Things are way more complicated...

Hmmm, so some Buddhists refer to it as energy rather than a soul but there still seems to be this. concept that a non-physical part of you is born again in another body. They even plot the sequential reincarnations of the Dalai Lama in Tibet.

I think more along the lines of infinity and multiverse. If there are infinite universes, worlds, versions of ourselves, then it is inevitable that we will experience life many times but that is hypothetical bordering on theoretical.

 

[lucacaro]

I don't really know about anything about religion but I mean... if you're not religious aren't you already set to go to hell anyways if it did exist? Just for not believing in god/jesus/whatever other figures? And I know I've probably done a lot of things that would send me to hell even if I died in an accident or naturally. I think if it were real there's no chance I won't go. So... I don't really worry about it. It is what it is I guess.

I've definitely thought about this before though and have had some small anxieties about it. I actually don't know what is scarier tbh - being in hell or just not existing anymore. I'll never really know what happens to me when I die till it happens (or maybe I won't know anything at all again) so there isn't a good answer so I just won't really think about it too hard. That's just my mindset on this matter though.

(Also I have not read the rest of this thread, this is disconnected to whatever everyone else is talking about lol)

 

[Nexuno]

Hmmm, so some Buddhists refer to it as energy rather than a soul but there still seems to be this. concept that a non-physical part of you is born again in another body.

Well, "what" is going to be born again is a bit complex. I just wanted to point to the fact that it's not the "soul" as we know it and understand it in western tradition, and at the same time is not what we identify as an "I" or self.

 

[Manford]

Well, "what" is going to be born again is a bit complex. I just wanted to point to the fact that it's not the "soul" as we know it and understand it in western tradition, and at the same time is not what we identify as an "I" or self.

Regardless, it still seems to be something supernatural. I appreciate that Buddhism is more philosophy than religion but there are still supernatural components to it that lack evidence.

 

[Nexuno]

there are still supernatural components to it that lack evidence.

The "evidence" is provided by the understanding itself, if you will... It's the same kind of "evidence" we can ask when talking about quantum physics, I believe, if you know what I mean lol :D We are, without any doubt, on the border line here...

 

[Manford]

The "evidence" is provided by the understanding itself, if you will... It's the same kind of "evidence" we can ask when talking about quantum physics, I believe, if you know what I mean lol :D We are, without any doubt, on the border line here...

Interestingly, with quantum mechanics we have direct evidence for much of it, like superposition and entanglement, but very little understanding of it.

 

[Meditation guide]

According to buddhism the soul doesn't exists, actually. Yet they believe in rebirth..

They believe in the continuance of the consciousness. Did you see the movie Little Buddha? It's a great movie.

 

[Nexuno]

They believe in the continuance of the consciousness. Did you see the movie Little Buddha? It's a great movie.

The Mara battle scene is one of my fav movie scenes ever. ^_^

 

[Intotheflames]

I don't believe in christian hell but for years I worried the kind of hell where one re-experienced the worst moment of their life in a loop. As life got more suffocating, one day I realized I am already in hell. It's this simple, not ctb I am 100% in hell, while hell after ctb is uncertain. I'll take that chance.