Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[color_me_gone]

Using nitrogen and a classic homemade Exit Bag, what is the best position to travel by bus? Lying, half-sitting, sitting?

As far as my knowledge goes, all three will work.
It is important that when you lose consciousness, that you don't fall over and rip the inert gas line somewhere.
This is where a car is beneficial.
The tank and valves can be on the passenger's seat or floor.
The area around you is fairly constrained, so you will not fall over when you lose consciousness.
If the seat back reclines, you can adjust it to your comfort, and enjoy the ride.

 

[Wunderkind]

As far as my knowledge goes, all three will work.
It is important that when you lose consciousness, that you don't fall over and rip the inert gas line somewhere.
This is where a car is beneficial.
The tank and valves can be on the passenger's seat or floor.
The area around you is fairly constrained, so you will not fall over when you lose consciousness.
If the seat back reclines, you can adjust it to your comfort, and enjoy the ride.

I am exactly planning a CTB tour in the car. Of the options, there is also a hotel, but for me it is not very suitable for personal convictions.

 

[Wunderkind]

I made an Exit Bag, but it smells strongly of polyethylene. Don't know what to spray it with?
Thanks to you I managed to make a very good Exit Bag.
The advantage of helium is that the car could be decorated with balloons. But I have nitrogen, he can't fly that well. But it is cheaper and more suitable for human breathing.

 

[GasMonkey]

Lying, half-sitting, sitting?

Hey folks, I must of read every post on this forum regarding this method, have my tank and diving reg but thinking of using a DIN with it now instead of the flow meter because I'd like to use the full mask set up, don't want any chance of staying when I finally come to using it but I'm confused with respirator masks etc, will the diving reg fit straight in, I want this method because I wanna be lights out rapid don't trust the exit bag method!

I already told you my views on SCUBA on the other thread.

 

[NAB]

Hello!

Thank you so much for your earlier replies to my questions.
I ultimately decided on using Nitrogen with an Argon regulator and flow-meter. However, from the website I was going to order it from there seems to be differences in size of the screw thread, with only the Aron tank fitting with the Argon regulator and flow-meter. So the Nitrogen flask has a screw thread size of 23.34 instead of 21.8 like the Argon flask and regulator/flow-meter. Would this cause a problem? Otherwise I mnight just go with Argon after all.

 

[GasMonkey]

You won't be able to connect a 21.8 regulator on a 23.34 cylinder.
I have never seen that sizes tho, do you mean 21.7 and 24.32?

 

[NAB]

Those are the numbers given on the website, but they may be slightly off due to typing error or something. It makes me kind of worried about buying something from one of the many other websites that doesnt specify exact numbers. I assumed they were all compatible within geographic region, so I guess I'll have to stick with the Argon. My only concern with that was that the heavier density and whether it would prevent the CO2 from being flushed out of the bag.

 

[BrokenOak]

So you have the mask and the demand valve.

You would need a pressure regulator (to send the demand valve the pressure it needs, which is 7.5 bar in the model that you have), quick coupling adapter to connect the demand valve to the regulator, and a NITROGEN cylinder with a purity rating of 2.8 (99.8%) or higher.

You could also get and SCBA regulator + air-to-nitrogen adapter.

Where are you from?


15 LPM.

Thanks for the response, mate.

Im in the UK.

Will this definetetly not work with Argon? Reason for buying it is two fold, 1. Its a lot easier for me to pass off a use case for welding, motorcycle restoration etc. 2. It comes in 5l cannisters. I can only get N in 2 or 10 which are either too small, or too big to fit in a bag (even a hiking rucksack).

But just so I know, was my plan of macgyvering it to an argon cannister with a dual stage regulator and flow meter not going to work? I dont need it to work perfectly like it would do in professional setting, just to bring the argon to the mask and get rid of any co2. It just seems a huge improvement over a plastic bag like some here plan to use. Or would you think that the argon wouldn't work with the valve?

If it wont work though, a pressure regulator isnt too difficult to come by, but again, not sure where to grab nitrogen that will fit my situation.

 

[GasMonkey]

Will this definetetly not work with Argon?

The thing is, SCBA gear is designed for Air, which is 78.08% Nitrogen, so it is naturally compatible with Nitrogen.

With Argon, you don't know, you would have to test it and see what happens. Different gases have different atomic structures and molar masses.

It just seems a huge improvement over a plastic bag like some here plan to use.

Yep SCBA is exponentially better than the ExitBag, totally superior to it, on another order of magnitude.

 

[NAB]

It seems all Argon regulators here have a different sized screw thread than the nitrogen flasks. I can find seperate regulators and flowmeters for Nitrogen, but I would not know how to put them together (Maybe its not so difficult at all?)

Obviously Nitrogen is the most popular choice here and in general and I can mostly find articles and stuff relating to Nitrogen. Does anyone have any notion of how many users here have used Argon and success/failure rates?

 

[BrokenOak]

The thing is, SCBA gear is designed for Air, which is 78.08% Nitrogen, so it is naturally compatible with Nitrogen.

With Argon, you don't know, you would have to test it and see what happens. Different gases have different atomic structures and molar masses.

Sure, I guess my question was whether the valve will work just through the in and out motions of breathing to pull argon into the mask, the push any remaining co2 and waterever else you breath out, out of the mask? I know that the positive pressure aspect of the mask may not work as well as it would with the oxygen/ nitrogen, but is that 100% needed to function? Will just making sure that the mask is properly fitted and tightened and that its in good working order be enough?

Again, tell me if im wrong, but its still essentially a sealed system, with a constant flow of argon for well over 25 mins (using a 5l tank). That seems more than enough to cover any inefficiencies that might come from using a different gas to the one it was designed for?

 

[GasMonkey]

the valve will work just through the in and out motions of breathing to pull argon into the mask

I don't know, the molecular weight of Air is 28.97 g/mol, Nitrogen 28.02 (almost the same as Air) and Argon 39.94, I don't know if that difference in weight could have an impact in the performance of the demand valve (which is designed for Air obviously). It's not just "yeah the valve will just work through the in and out motions" (I actually laughed my ass off when I read that).

We know for a fact that they work with Nitrogen because it has been widely tested many times, including by engineers who have joined this niche market of selling gear to CTB (the Canadian source).

push any remaining co2 and waterever else you breath out, out of the mask?

The exhalation will work for sure, via the one-way valves of the mask.

Again, tell me if im wrong, but its still essentially a sealed system, with a constant flow of argon for well over 25 mins (using a 5l tank)

SCBA doesn't work on constant flow, only pumps gas when it's needed to maintain the possitive pressure inside the mask, like when you inhale (which creates a demand for gas).

 

[BrokenOak]

I don't know, the molecular weight of Air is 28.97 g/mol, Nitrogen 28.02 (almost the same as Air) and Argon 39.94, I don't know if that difference in weight could have an impact in the performance of the demand valve (which is designed for Air obviously). It's not just "yeah the valve will just work through the in and out motions" (I actually laughed my ass off when I read that).

We know for a fact that they work with Nitrogen because it has been widely tested many times, including by engineers who have joined this niche market of selling gear to CTB (the Canadian source).


The exhalation will work for sure, via the one-way valves of the mask.


SCBA doesn't work on constant flow, only pumps gas when it's needed to maintain the possitive pressure inside the mask, like when you inhale (which creates a demand for gas).

Ah sure, I think im getting how they work now. Sorry, I was basically approaching using the mask as a kind of 'posh' exit bag where you hooked it up to a bottle and just ran a constant flow of gas into it until it ran out. If I understand correctly, is that likely to just cause of build of pressure and cause a blow out somewhere if the flow rate wasnt perfectly synced to my breathing rate? Not that it would be a big blow out, likely just pushing out from where i planned to duck tape the hose's together, or out through the bottom of the mask.

On that lineof thought though, will a flowmeter connected to the regulator help with making sure too much gas isnt pumped down the hose to the mask? I think if it will then theres enough there that im not really worried about it failing.

 

[GasMonkey]

First of all, what gear do you have? Demand valve and mask?

 

[BrokenOak]

First of all, what gear do you have? Demand valve and mask?

Draeger.Web WWW - Draeger Master

www.draeger.com

with the LDV and the 1m hose that runs off it.

 

[GasMonkey]

with the LDV and the 1m hose that runs off it.

Is the button on the LDV red or blue?
Where are you from?

 

[BrokenOak]

Is the button on the LDV red or blue?
Where are you from?

Red. And UK.

 

[GasMonkey]

That mask and LDV (demand valve) are both top-notch SCBA gear, you just need a regulator+adapter, there are 2 options:

1. You can get an SCBA regulator and use an air-to-nitrogen adapter (I'm not sure that such adapter exists for the N₂ standard on your region (BS341 #3)) to connect it to the Nitrogen cylinder. The regulator will have the quick coupling connection incorporated to connect the demand valve.

2. Or a normal "industrial" pressure regulator capable on supplying 7.5 bar and a quick coupling adapter to connect the demand valve.

 

[BrokenOak]

That mask and LDV (demand valve) are both top-notch SCBA gear, you just need a regulator+adapter, there are 2 options:

1. You can get an SCBA regulator and use an air-to-nitrogen adapter (I'm not sure that such adapter exists for the N₂ standard on your region (BS341 #3)) to connect it to the Nitrogen cylinder. The regulator will have the quick coupling connection incorporated to connect the demand valve.

2. Or a normal "industrial" pressure regulator capable on supplying 7.5 bar and a quick coupling adapter to connect the demand valve.

Nice, thanks man.

Must have been super lucky with it. I only paid £50, and it was brand new in its packet. I think they're coming from a lot of the covid labs/ usage that they dont need.

Ill probably go for option 2, but could you link which part is the quick coupling adapter. Sorry if this was a stupid idea but seeing the connection i figured it was going to be easier to just cut the end off and duck tape it!

 

[GasMonkey]

I only paid £50, and it was brand new in its packet.

That's a bargain!

could you link which part is the quick coupling adapter.

I asked you about the color of the button because there is an old model of demand valve that works on Negative Pressure (which is not optimal to CTB) that has a BLUE button (instead of RED which is Positive Pressure).

That model is no longer in production (discontinued) but it can be seen on the second hand market. All new SCBA demand valves work on Positive Pressure.

 

[BrokenOak]

That's a bargain!


View attachment 102349

I asked you about the color of the button because there is an old model of demand valve that works on Negative Pressure (which is not optimal to CTB) that has a BLUE button (instead of RED which is Positive Pressure).

That model is no longer in production (discontinued) but it can be seen on the second hand market. All new SCBA demand valves work on Positive Pressure.

Thanks man, i really appreciate. Do you know if thats a propiertary part or more of a standard fitting for hoses? Just have no idea what it looks like form the inside.

 

[Wunderkind]

Many do not understand how this method works. I selected 2 fragments from different videos where children breathe helium from balloons.
Many people wonder if there is pain. No. This method is 100% peaceful.

Video1

VEED - VID_20221214_230438_577_1.mp4

Make stunning videos with a single click. Cut, trim, crop, add subtitles and more. Online, no account needed. Try it now, free. VEED

www.veed.io

Video2

VEED - VID_20221214_230821_900.mp4

Make stunning videos with a single click. Cut, trim, crop, add subtitles and more. Online, no account needed. Try it now, free. VEED

www.veed.io

 

[color_me_gone]

I selected 2 fragments from different videos where children breathe helium from balloons.

When I was a teenager in high school, I worked weekends as a busboy at a Banquet Hall.

This was around 1969.

Parties often used Helium filled balloons, so they had a 10 liter canister of helium to fill the balloons.

We busboys used to put our mouth over the fill outlet, turn on the gas, and inhale the helium, similar to these videos.

After inhaling as much as we could, we would then talk.

Our voice pitch was significantly raised due to the low density of the gas.

We used to do this ALL.THE.TIME.

I don't remember anyone ever passing out. In fact, we didn't even feel light headed.

 

[Wunderkind]

When I was a teenager in high school, I worked weekends as a busboy at a Banquet Hall.

This was around 1969.

Parties often used Helium filled balloons, so they had a 10 liter canister of helium to fill the balloons.

We busboys used to put our mouth over the fill outlet, turn on the gas, and inhale the helium, similar to these videos.

After inhaling as much as we could, we would then talk.

Our voice pitch was significantly raised due to the low density of the gas.

We used to do this ALL.THE.TIME.

I don't remember anyone ever passing out. In fact, we didn't even feel light headed.

Here the children took a few deep breaths, the result is on the video

 

[color_me_gone]

Here the children took a few deep breaths, the result is on the video

I'm not refuting the videos.
I'm just wondering why we were not affected.
Perhaps because we were older (in our teens).

 

[Wunderkind]

I'm not refuting the videos.
I'm just wondering why we were not affected.
Perhaps because we were older (in our teens).

Number of breaths, size of breaths. Between breaths of helium could take a breath of air. Maybe the purity of helium.

 

[QuieterTimes]

I've been looking at the Flow Regulator Kits on the Canadian source site. How does the internal black mask part work, is it held over the mouth somehow? And with that over the mouth, does that mean the fit at the base, on the neck, doesn't need to be tight/firm etc?

 

[GasMonkey]

Do you know if thats a propiertary part or more of a standard fitting for hoses?

I have seen and used myself a bunch of demand valves and all of them have the same plug-in nipple, I measured it and it was 3/8" width (~0,95mm)

Just have no idea what it looks like form the inside.

How does the internal black mask part work, is it held over the mouth somehow?

It's an internal structure over the mouth and nose to help with CO₂ exhalation.

And with that over the mouth, does that mean the fit at the base, on the neck, doesn't need to be tight/firm etc?

The base of the mask goes under the chin, it's comfortable.
SCBA mask are made to be comfortable on extended use.

 

[QuieterTimes]

I have seen and used myself a bunch of demand valves and all of them have the same plug-in nipple, I measured it and it was 3/8width (~0,95mm)


View attachment 102360

View attachment 102361

It's an internal structure over the mouth and nose to help with CO₂ exhalation.


The base of the mask goes under the chin, it's comfortable.
SCBA mask are made to be comfortable on extended use.

This is what I'm looking at:
Does it look reasonable for ctb?

 

[GasMonkey]

Ahhh you mean the EEBD hood.

Yeah that's totally viable for CTB, is a system intended exactly for the subject matter (to breath a gas from a cylinder while being isolated and protected from the external gas), which is precisely what you need to CTB. It works on constant flow.

The internal mask is for CO₂ exhalation via one-way valves. No problems with the neck fitting. It's much better designed than the average "TurkeyBag" that you craft at home, since it's a real commercial product used emergencies.