Resource Do Not Resuscitate (DNR)

[jules18]

I've been thinking there are a lot of people who have been saved from attempts by emergency services. If these people had a valid DNR form present next to them they could have been successful in their attempts. If not they could have sued the EMS for a lot of money, but they won't risk helping you if you have a DNR.

You have to talk to your doctor and he has to sign the form and make a copy for his office. That's all it takes. The form requires two witnesses, one being your doctor and the other could be one of his office staff or another doctor. I talked to mine over the phone and he agreed to do it without any questions.

I think this is a very solid idea before doing any attempts.

 

[Soon4me]

Would a DNR tattoo be enough or would they just ignore that?

 

[Cookiedough8956]

Would a DNR tattoo be enough or would they just ignore that?

prob ignore it.
They need official documents

 

[jules18]

Would a DNR tattoo be enough or would they just ignore that?

Your doctor needs to have a DNR on file for it be valid and usable in court. If the paramedics ignore a valid DNR signed by your doctor you can sue them for a boatload of money.

 

[Soon4me]

@jules18 I think this is a really good idea,i have seen people resuscitated after attempted hanging.I wouldn't wish that on any one.If they did have DNR from their doctor they would have succeeded ctb,but now they are left paralyzed and even
worse then they were before trying to ctb.
It's crazy doctors would resuscitate someone knowing what the outcome will be and knowing that things were already so
bad for that person that the only way out was death.

 

[jules18]

@jules18 I think this is a really good idea,i have seen people resuscitated after attempted hanging.I wouldn't wish that on any one.If they did have DNR from their doctor they would have succeeded ctb,but now they are left paralyzed and even
worse then they were before trying to ctb.
It's crazy doctors would resuscitate someone knowing what the outcome will be and knowing that things were already so
bad for that person that the only way out was death.

I agree. I think the fact that DNRs exist should be fully taken advantage of because you can be innocuous with your request. No doctor will deny you a DNR. You just say 'in case something happens' and they agree to do it.

 

[Funkbunny]

And on the flip side, they can and are enforced on people too. It's a different story when a dnr is forced on someone that wants to live. (Not me I hasten to add)

 

[jules18]

I've done some digging and there are lot of sites out there that claim to give you free forms but end up forcing you to sign up and provide a debit card..

I found the official state DNR form on the .gov website for my state. It's best to do some digging and/or call your state health department to figure out what the official form is. I wouldn't trust these other forms just to be on the safe side.

 

[GeorgeJL]

A man collapsed with 'Do Not Resuscitate' tattooed on his chest. Doctors didn't know what to do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/12/01/a-man-collapsed-with-do-not-resuscitate-tattooed-on-his-chest-doctors-didnt-know-what-to-do/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.862ee94909ea

 

[elizabeth.luck]

What doctor is going to write a 24-year-old a DNR? Is that really true?

 

[jules18]

What doctor is going to write a 24-year-old a DNR? Is that really true?

Absolutely. Mine talked a bit about it and agreed to do it. You can also invoke religious belief if you want, but that's up to you. It's usually just a one page form so not that difficult for them to do.

Once you have the completed form you can order a DNR bracelet online (they require the form before sending you the bracelet). Wearing it during your attempt and having the DNR form nearby should be foolproof.

 

[TiredHorse]

As an ex-EMT, in my experience:

1) ONLY an official DNR form, signed by your doctor and on file with them, will be considered.

2) ONLY if the form is presented correctly will it be considered --when I saw them on calls, they were taped to the headboard of the patient's bed.

3) A family member can override a DNR form. Which is BS, but not something you can contest.

4) A DNR form will be ignored, deliberately, for a suspected suicide attempt. Sorry; it's just policy. The best explanation I can give is that there's no telling if it's a suicide or an attempted murder and no EMS agency is going to take the chance. Either we'll be sued by the family or be accessories to a crime, and we won't risk it.

DNRs are only genuinely effective in the case of a known, long-term medical condition.

Yes, I'm an old-timer at this point, but you folks might consider using the search function on the forum. This has already been covered in exhaustive detail in the last four months.

 

[jules18]

As an ex-EMT, in my experience:

1) ONLY an official DNR form, signed by your doctor and on file with them, will be considered.

2) ONLY if the form is presented correctly will it be considered --when I saw them on calls, they were taped to the headboard of the patient's bed.

3) A family member can override a DNR form. Which is BS, but not something you can contest.

4) A DNR form will be ignored, deliberately, for a suspected suicide attempt. Sorry; it's just policy. The best explanation I can give is that there's no telling if it's a suicide or an attempted murder and no EMS agency is going to take the chance. Either we'll be sued by the family or be accessories to a crime, and we won't risk it.

DNRs are only genuinely effective in the case of a known, long-term medical condition.

Yes, I'm an old-timer at this point, but you folks might consider using the search function on the forum. This has already been covered in exhaustive detail in the last four months.

Thanks for the response.

My question is, assuming you have a doctor signed DNR and it's taped to the headboard, how would EMS decide whether to ignore it or not based on if it's a suspected suicide?

Let's assume you leave no trace behind. The EMTs enter the room and see a bunch of food and glasses on the table - the usual messy room of a slob. Let's say you drank SN or N from one of the glasses. How do they decide it was a suicide attempt or not?

If they ignore the DNR with no evidence, could you sue EMS and win? if they do find evidence and ignore it, could you still sue them? Assuming of course they successfully resuscitate you.

I guess they could deduce it was a suicide attempt because you conveniently taped the DNR to the headboard. But do they think that way?

I find it hard to believe they will start doing tests on the glasses before deciding to act or not.

Appreciate your insights.

I've read the entire official DNR for my state and it doesn't say anything regarding suicide. Have done a bit of reading regarding previous DNR threads.

I honestly think if you make sure your doctor and nearby hospitals have a copy of your DNR then you can successfully sue them if they ignore it and successfully resuscitate you. I don't know how they can argue themselves out of a legally binding document without losing in court.

 

[TAW122]

@TiredHorse might be a dumb question, but do I need to have an current doctor in order to have an DNR? As of now, I don't have a doctor as I don't have health insurance, only limited medicaid (which only covers a small amount of services and allows for certain providers).

Also another question is that given all the ways an DNR can be ignored or bypassed, I suppose it would be a fruitless endeavor for someone who is looking to ctb?

 

[TiredHorse]

Anyone can put a DNR on record --young, healthy people write up DNRs before surgeries just in case something goes awry. However, the form must be present (and official; no photocopies or tattoos) and obvious when EMS arrives or we'll follow our protocols and start working to resucitate.

That said, if we came into a house, and there was someone lying in a bed, pulseless (dead is an official term that EMS doesn't generally get to decide), with a DNR taped to the headboard, and that was the entirety of the situation, then yes, we'd more than likely obey the DNR. For all we know, it's a natural death, which is what DNRs are really about. It's only if LEOs or family were there saying, "it's a suicide/possible criminal case (LEOs can do that); ignore the DNR," that in that situation we would ignore the DNR.

However, if we were to come upon a pulseless patient out in the woods with a DNR safety-pinned to her shirt, that's way too sketchy a situation, far too likely to be a case for the LEOs, and we would quite likely ignore the DNR.

HOWEVER, be aware that there are criteria for a patient where EMS does not start resucitation efforts anyway. Rigor mortis, lividity, obvious destruction of brain, decapitation, decomposition, incineration... Different states have different criteria. So if you're dead and stiff, or dead enough for lividity to have set in (where all your blood settles to the lowest portion of the corpse), you won't need a DNR. Likewise, if you've blown your brains out we aren't going to try and give you CPR.

@thrw_a_way1221221, as I understand it, yes, you do need a doctor, but I may have that wrong. You definitely need a doctor to sign off on one. I don't have a DNR on file, even though I made several attempts to CTB last autumn/winter. To me, it simply isn't worth the risk the inevitable questions pose. I suppose I could make it happen with my doc if I went in with a sheaf of other forms like DPA, Living Will, etc., so that it looked wildly precautionary, but an otherwise physically healthy person coming in solely to ask for a DNR will almost certainly raise eyebrows and invite questions. I'd rather just CTB properly when the time comes.

 

[TAW122]

I'd rather just CTB properly when the time comes.

I think this is my current plan (when things get too harsh or if life takes a big shit on me later down the road..), I guess the best I can do is hope I don't get sick or lose my capacity (mentally or physically) to ctb. I don't need to be super fit to use a firearm, but will need my hands, arms, and limbs to be functional in order to do so.

 

[Sweet emotion]

Would a DNR tattoo be enough or would they just ignore that?

LMAO. No that wouldn't make a difference. And no one is going to be looking at your tattoos if you're dying.

I've been thinking there are a lot of people who have been saved from attempts by emergency services. If these people had a valid DNR form present next to them they could have been successful in their attempts. If not they could have sued the EMS for a lot of money, but they won't risk helping you if you have a DNR.

You have to talk to your doctor and he has to sign the form and make a copy for his office. That's all it takes. The form requires two witnesses, one being your doctor and the other could be one of his office staff or another doctor. I talked to mine over the phone and he agreed to do it without any questions.

I think this is a very solid idea before doing any attempts.

I want to do this with my doctor but I am terribly afraid that he's going to think I'm going to kill myself. I have the highest ranking pain condition in medical history and he knows what pain meds I get and he gives me Xanax so I'm afraid he would tell my pain management doctor and hey would stop giving them to me. I can't believed your doctor gave you one over the phone, no questions asked. You're lucky in that regard. If I ever got one and someone revived me, good help that person.

As an ex-EMT, in my experience:

1) ONLY an official DNR form, signed by your doctor and on file with them, will be considered.

2) ONLY if the form is presented correctly will it be considered --when I saw them on calls, they were taped to the headboard of the patient's bed.

3) A family member can override a DNR form. Which is BS, but not something you can contest.

4) A DNR form will be ignored, deliberately, for a suspected suicide attempt. Sorry; it's just policy. The best explanation I can give is that there's no telling if it's a suicide or an attempted murder and no EMS agency is going to take the chance. Either we'll be sued by the family or be accessories to a crime, and we won't risk it.

DNRs are only genuinely effective in the case of a known, long-term medical condition.

Yes, I'm an old-timer at this point, but you folks might consider using the search function on the forum. This has already been covered in exhaustive detail in the last four months.

Thank you for telling me this. I have Complex Regional Pain Syndrome which is the highest ranking pain condition in medical history. I was going to ask my doctor for a DNR and leave a note next to my body saying that I killed myself and don't want to be brought back with the DNR right next to me but since you said the EMS will ignore it if it's a suicide I'm not even going to ask my doctor for it. Because I think he will wonder why I am asking him for it.

As an ex-EMT, in my experience:

1) ONLY an official DNR form, signed by your doctor and on file with them, will be considered.

2) ONLY if the form is presented correctly will it be considered --when I saw them on calls, they were taped to the headboard of the patient's bed.

3) A family member can override a DNR form. Which is BS, but not something you can contest.

4) A DNR form will be ignored, deliberately, for a suspected suicide attempt. Sorry; it's just policy. The best explanation I can give is that there's no telling if it's a suicide or an attempted murder and no EMS agency is going to take the chance. Either we'll be sued by the family or be accessories to a crime, and we won't risk it.

DNRs are only genuinely effective in the case of a known, long-term medical condition.

Yes, I'm an old-timer at this point, but you folks might consider using the search function on the forum. This has already been covered in exhaustive detail in the last four months.

Thank you for telling me this. I have Complex Regional Pain Syndrome which is the highest ranking pain condition in medical history. I was going to ask my doctor for a DNR and leave a note next to my body saying that I killed myself and don't want to be brought back with the DNR right next to me but since you said the EMS will ignore it if it's a suicide I'm not even going to ask my doctor for it. Because I think he will wonder why I am asking him for it.

@TiredHorse might be a dumb question, but do I need to have an current doctor in order to have an DNR? As of now, I don't have a doctor as I don't have health insurance, only limited medicaid (which only covers a small amount of services and allows for certain providers).

Also another question is that given all the ways an DNR can be ignored or bypassed, I suppose it would be a fruitless endeavor for someone who is looking to ctb?

What doctor would you go to then to get it? Your primary doctor has to sign it. So you need a primary doctor.