DeBreather purchase, too good to be true?

[LMLN]

Not! For me, that's one of the biggest deterrents. It didn't keep me from making the investment of money, but I'm not confident in making the investment of my own body. The concept seems solid, but there is not yet any proof of its execution, and I've made plenty of criticisms that Richard's and PN's actions inspire my distrust and discomfort.

Again, I refer back to the title of the thread: Too good to be true? It's been valuable to me to have this space to explore that question. I want the potential peace, ease and quickness of the method so much that it's challenging for me to not override the red flags and just take the risk. If I end up in supported care with a loss of a significant portion of my intellect and physical capacity, loss of my independence and autonomy, not able to ctb and perhaps not capable of even planning a method, then I am well and truly fucked, far more than I am now.

I agree! Being a "test case" for something like that is too risky. If it fails, I might be in a very bad way.

 

[knowman]

Not! For me, that's one of the biggest deterrents. It didn't keep me from making the investment of money, but I'm not confident in making the investment of my own body. The concept seems solid, but there is not yet any proof of its execution, and I've made plenty of criticisms that Richard's and PN's actions inspire my distrust and discomfort.

Again, I refer back to the title of the thread: Too good to be true? It's been valuable to me to have this space to explore that question. I want the potential peace, ease and quickness of the method so much that it's challenging for me to not override the red flags and just take the risk. If I end up in supported care with a loss of a significant portion of my intellect and physical capacity, loss of my independence and autonomy, not able to ctb and perhaps not capable of even planning a method, then I am well and truly fucked, far more than I am now.

Very well said. Thank you GoodPersonEffec.

Very well said. Thank you GoodPersonEffec.

Sorry. Shakey fingers. I meant GoodPersonEffed

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Here's a concern I have about the seal on the mask. I'm going to try to reason through it here.

PN demonstrated in a video how to test the seal: choose the mask that best fits, inflate it, hold it up to your face, cover the hole, and breathe in. If it seals, when you breathe in or out, no air will come in or escape.

When some folks go into hypoxia, their bodies contort. I'm concerned that these contortions, will move the mask and therefore break the seal. If one is still breathing, then they will start getting oxygen and will recover. If respiration has already been arrested, death will still happen. But what about that in-between that I mentioned yesterday in a post on this thread? What if one is still breathing but only a small amount of oxygen gets in, so that brain damage, but not death, occurs?

Any thoughts on this? @enjolras? Others with more knowledge of debreather devices?

 

[Living sucks]

Here's a concern I have about the seal on the mask. I'm going to try to reason through it here.

PN demonstrated in a video how to test the seal: choose the mask that best fits, inflate it, hold it up to your face, cover the hole, and breathe in. If it seals, when you breathe in or out, no air will come in or escape.

When some folks go into hypoxia, their bodies contort. I'm concerned that these contortions, will move the mask and therefore break the seal. If one is still breathing, then they will start getting oxygen and will recover. If respiration has already been arrested, death will still happen. But what about that in-between that I mentioned yesterday in a post on this thread? What if one is still breathing but only a small amount of oxygen gets in, so that brain damage, but not death, occurs?

Any thoughts on this? @enjolras? Others with more knowledge of debreather devices?

You're effed!! Unless no one is looking for you for days in which case you will die eventually. Bcuz I'd imagine the damage is too much for you to even help yourself at that point.

honestly all i can picture is passing out and the jaw drops breaking the seal. But if you have the straps really tight???
@mediocre did you happen to play with the masks while you have/had it open? Also if I were you, I would leave the masks out if you're planning to reseal it so you Play with them in the meantime.

 

[Notabadguy]

Not! For me, that's one of the biggest deterrents. It didn't keep me from making the investment of money, but I'm not confident in making the investment of my own body. The concept seems solid, but there is not yet any proof of its execution, and I've made plenty of criticisms that Richard's and PN's actions inspire my distrust and discomfort.

Again, I refer back to the title of the thread: Too good to be true? It's been valuable to me to have this space to explore that question. I want the potential peace, ease and quickness of the method so much that it's challenging for me to not override the red flags and just take the risk. If I end up in supported care with a loss of a significant portion of my intellect and physical capacity, loss of my independence and autonomy, not able to ctb and perhaps not capable of even planning a method, then I am well and truly fucked, far more than I am now.

May I ask why PN's actions inspire your distrust and discomfort? Is there an objective reason for that? For me Exit Int, PN and PPH are the closer we can get to scientific verification, or professional at least. The input we make here is interesting, obviously, but there is broscience too. If, for instance, PN tells you to mix SN and propranolol why don't you do it? Do you know better than him?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

May I ask why PN's actions inspire your distrust and discomfort? Is there an objective reason for that?

I have been very vocal on the forum about how PN's actions come across to me as a conman. I have listed specific reasons why, and sources that educate about covert manipulation tactics and persuasion tactics to influence.

Here are two of the posts:

Spoiler

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...ration-and-practice-journal.31458/post-588334

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...nvinced-that-sn-is-peaceful.39478/post-729898

If, for instance, PN tells you to mix SN and propranolol why don't you do it? Do you know better than him?

He keeps changing the recommended amount with no explanation or documentation as to his reasons for recommending it at all, nor for changing it. I would likely take it anyway, but I feel uneasy about it. The above posts explain this unease.

I would also like to address with you that the tone of these two questions appears to me to be aggressive and belittling. They do not read to me that they sound that way because English is not your first language. How do you respond?

 

[Notabadguy]

I have been very vocal on the forum about how PN's actions come across to me as a conman. I have listed specific reasons why, and sources that educate about covert manipulation tactics and persuasion tactics to influence.

Here are two of the posts:

Spoiler

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...ration-and-practice-journal.31458/post-588334

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...nvinced-that-sn-is-peaceful.39478/post-729898

He keeps changing the recommended amount with no explanation or documentation as to his reasons for recommending it at all, nor for changing it. I would likely take it anyway, but I feel uneasy about it. The above posts explain this unease.

I would also like to address with you that the tone of these two questions appears to me to be aggressive and belittling. They do not read to me that they sound that way because English is not your first language. How do you respond?

Not agressive at all. Not meaning that. By "you" I mean the suicidal person, not GoodPersonEffed specifically.
PN explains in a video why Prop is recommended, and he endorses clearly SN mixed with Prop by saying he'd take it if he wanted to die. PN is not God, but a professional physician specialized in Euthanasia.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

PN explains in a video why Prop is recommended, and he endorses clearly SN mixed with Prop by saying he'd take it if he wanted to die. PN is not God, but a professional physician specialized in Euthanasia.

I am not confident in PN. You are. I agree to disagree about that with no animosity r need to feel you must accept I'm right. We each have the ability and the right to make our own assessments, and to subsequently act as we each think is in our own best interests.

 

[Notabadguy]

I am not confident in PN. You are. I agree to disagree about that with no animosity r need to feel you must accept I'm right. We each have the ability and the right to make our own assessments, and to subsequently act as we each think is in our own best interests.

Certainly I am confident in PN, Exit and PPH. That doesn't mean that I don't think certain things could have been done better, for instance the mask of the Rebreather, now they say that is open to improvement, only a few weeks after the launchment.

 

[Living sucks]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe PN, Exit and pph had nothing to do with the creation, design and manufacturing of the Re/debreather? Were they involved in the testing of the old model 10 years ago? They certainly weren't involved in any testing with the most recent model? (Accept offering phones and tripods to volunteers currently)
My understanding is that they only see it as a potential peaceful method and therefore rated it in the PPH?
(all questions, no statements)

Certainly I am confident in PN, Exit and PPH. That doesn't mean that I don't think certain things could have been done better, for instance the mask of the Rebreather, now they say that is open to improvement, only a few weeks after the launchment.

 

[Notabadguy]

Living sucks, my understanding is that actually, but not legally, they're behind. And I like that. I wish I had access to the Exit forums in order to get more info.

 

[Yomyom]

Full face mask (mouth and nose) are Awfulness to assemble on the face.
The dimensions of the masks are universal, in my case (from my CPAP device) the medium mask was too small for me and the large mask was too big for me, Leaking is a very easy thing when it comes to a full face mask
so I suggest you to take a lot of time to Measure the right mask, move your hand around the mask to see that there are no leaks
You can also tighten the mask a little more, but there is a limit to how it can help

For more information about fitting a mask you can search in this forum (it's basically the same idea)

http://www.cpaptalk.com/search.php?keywords=Fitting+face+mask

 

[My_name_is_Luka]

I believe that the full-face mask might work better as an escape-bag (with unidirectional valves), as there is a constant flux of gas entering. I have bought a cheap one, I still have to test it.
Leaks in masks can probably be tested more easily in a bath tub, with a tube going out of the water. If there is a leak during breathing, water will slowly come in.

 

[enjolras]

When some folks go into hypoxia, their bodies contort. I'm concerned that these contortions, will move the mask and therefore break the seal. If one is still breathing, then they will start getting oxygen and will recover. If respiration has already been arrested, death will still happen. But what about that in-between that I mentioned yesterday in a post on this thread? What if one is still breathing but only a small amount of oxygen gets in, so that brain damage, but not death, occurs?

Any thoughts on this? @enjolras? Others with more knowledge of debreather devices?

I have no final answer, but I'd be tempted to follow @Living sucks' vision.

What I do know:

- the magnitude of the contortions, at least the start, from what appears on video (pilot stuff), could certainly make you fall from a chair or change position on a sofa, uncontrollably. For this reason, I believe it would be more secured to lay down, but that's only my opinion... This way the body would be sort of blocked by the press of the flat surface, so I'm doubting that various muscle/body parts' contortions would add up / couple enough to make the neck / head turn for the mask to collide with the environnement, thus displaced (but still not guaranteed). Otherwise, if falling on the ground, or against the back or sides of the sofa / bed if sitting inclined ...humm I just dislike the idea
Else might wanna acquire one of those pilot seats with all the straps ;)

j-k : not yet available at the R2D site hah

- about the order, the contortions seem to start triggering at around the exact same time of the loss of consciousness, then they could last a couple minutes, between 1-2 in general (judging from exit bags anyway) or much longer at worse (happened with Dignitas). I'm just unsure if they'd modulate in intensity, or on the contrary calm down. But from what I read, I didn't have the impression, it wasn't reported, so more like steady ? Can't tell. Most were reported as weak but that goes against the beginning of what I observed with videos. Considering the Dignitas recordings, the contortions will finally end up to pause, then a calm period of several minutes occurs before death, where mostly the respiration is altered hurtfully.
Apparently, serious brain damage would happen especially at the final stage, shortly before death... maybe during that collapsing phase ? Maybe the end of the contortions also comment on the neurological state, I'm not certain (broscience like would say Notabadguy).
Indeed, this leaves wondering, if a solid leak would happen earlier with the equipment during the contorsions, would you slowly recover and voilà ? I give my tongue to the cat ! (french expression meaning I donno). If the leak was light, maintaining you into "thin air" like the mountain climbers, it's my assumption that it may be sufficient to maintain you in a "vegetative" state, then in all cases > effed, even if the death was prolonged, I hope not "starving"/dehydrated to death, but from misc complications before (pulmonary or cardiovascular), without suffering

Take your bets :/

 

[Notabadguy]

I have no final answer, but I'd be tempted to follow @Living sucks' vision.

What I do know:

- the magnitude of the contortions, at least the start, from what appears on video (pilot stuff), could certainly make you fall from a chair or change position on a sofa, uncontrollably. For this reason, I believe it would be more secured to lay down, but that's only my opinion... This way the body would be sort of blocked by the press of the flat surface, so I'm doubting that various muscle/body parts' contortions would add up / couple enough to make the neck / head turn for the mask to collide with the environnement, thus displaced (but still not guaranteed). Otherwise, if falling on the ground, or against the back or sides of the sofa / bed if sitting inclined ...humm I just dislike the idea
Else might wanna acquire one of those pilot seats with all the straps ;)
View attachment 36426
j-k : not yet available at the R2D site hah

- about the order, the contortions seem to start triggering at around the exact same time of the loss of consciousness, then they could last a couple minutes, between 1-2 in general (judging from exit bags anyway) or much longer at worse (happened with Dignitas). I'm just unsure if they'd modulate in intensity, or on the contrary calm down. But from what I read, I didn't have the impression, it wasn't reported, so more like steady ? Can't tell. Most were reported as weak but that goes against the beginning of what I observed from videos. Considering the Dignitas recordings, the contortions will finally end up to pause, then a calm period occurs before death, where mostly the respiration is altered hurtfully.
Apparently, serious brain damage happens especially at the final stage, shortly before death... maybe during that collapsing phase ? Maybe the end of the contortions also comment on the neurological state, I'm not certain (broscience like would say Notabadguy).
Indeed, this leaves wondering, if a solid leak would happen earlier from the equipment during the contorsions, would you slowly recover and voilà ? I give my tongue to the cat ! (french expression meaning I donno). If the leak was light, maintaining you into "thin air" like the mountain climbers, it's my assumption that it may be sufficient to maintain you in a "vegetative" state, then in all cases > effed, even if the death was prolonged, I hope not "starving"/dehydrated to death, but from misc complications before (pulmonary or cardiovascular), without suffering

Take your bets :/

Scary, I think nothing happens if your breathing was already arrested, but who knows? It's the eternal question with this device.

 

[enjolras]

Uh from what I know (Dignitas feedback of helium exit bags), the breathing fully stops just before death. Until then, it deteriorates with various degrees of severity. But for it to disappear completely, it takes an elongated time, almost complete.

 

[Soul]

I give my tongue to the cat!

Charming! Is that like "I pass my powers of speech to the cat, since s/he's probably better informed than I am"? Or simply "I remove my tongue and give it to the cat to play with or eat, as s/he prefers"?

Ahem: Excuse the digression, please.

 

[enjolras]

Charming! Is that like "I pass my powers of speech to the cat, since s/he's probably better informed than I am"? Or simply "I remove my tongue and give it to the cat to play with or eat, as s/he prefers"?

Ahem: Excuse the digression, please.

As you know, cats talk to the deads, therefore they're the venerable entities to consult. Just the ceremony to awake their powers is to french kiss, with tongue (which they bite, as an exarcebated sense of erotism)
Psst, no disgression allowed, you have a song to write : focus, focus

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe PN, Exit and pph had nothing to do with the creation, design and manufacturing of the Re/debreather? Were they involved in the testing of the old model 10 years ago? They certainly weren't involved in any testing with the most recent model? (Accept offering phones and tripods to volunteers currently)
My understanding is that they only see it as a potential peaceful method and therefore rated it in the PPH?
(all questions, no statements)

They are promoting the ReBreather.

In the PPH, it seems to me that the debreather method was rated, not this exact product.

I don't know if they were involved 10 years ago, the organization name is in the journal article someone posted.

 

[enjolras]

It really was 19 years ago, but the reports were only compiled 10 years ago, from collected notes, which leaves to be desired.

Not from the link we know, but another source


Who's down for some camping ? Could have been a CO alternative if materialised !

Actually, it looks closer to the ancestor of the Sarco (in 2000)

 

[enjolras]

Uh from what I know (Dignitas feedback of helium exit bags), the breathing fully stops just before death. Until then, it deteriorates with various degrees of severity. But for it to disappear completely, it takes an elongated time, almost complete.

Auto-"correcting" / precisions

Helium exit bags (ok?) @ Dignitas (video appreciations) ...for a lack of proper comparison, sorry

Case 1


Case 2


Case 3


Case 4


What they call "cessation of breathing", is it a really accurate label ? There are many terminal gasps / breaths after... Anyway, at this stage, the contortions are behind. Would a leak caused at the blue stage, overlap on the next phases, up to retrieving a valid consciousness ? Which ones of these periods are dangerous ? I read that only the 2 last minutes would injure but would eventually 2-3 minutes of no oxygen (already) until displacing the mask really leave you intact ? I admit to doubt.

 

[Notabadguy]

Auto-"correcting" / precisions

Helium exit bags (ok?) @ Dignitas (video appreciations) ...for a lack of proper comparison, sorry

Case 1
View attachment 36456

Case 2
View attachment 36457

Case 3
View attachment 36458

Case 4
View attachment 36459

What they call "cessation of breathing", is it a really accurate label ? There are many terminal gasps / breaths after... Anyway, at this stage, the contortions are behind. Would a leak caused at the blue stage, overlap on the next phases, up to retrieving a valid consciousness ? Which ones of these periods are dangerous ? I read that only the 2 last minutes would injure but would eventually 2-3 minutes of no oxygen (already) until displacing the mask really leave you intact ? I admit to doubt.

View attachment 36460

Are they ansswering these questions in the Exit forums? Could we pass the info through PMs?

 

[enjolras]

It would be interesting to get the policy of their forum...
Ask @Yomyom his opinion
If not sent to jail time for asking, I'm guessing you might have an answer that would be a convolution of the question.
Didn't get the PMs part ? PMs are now disabled there

PS: despite the concerns, the exit bag just seems to work, barely any survival. I'm hardly seeing what kind of feedback there's to get, unless transposing with hypothesis. Would you follow theories that have not been validated with practice ? I simply mean, there's a lack of documentation of cases gone wrong, that could be revealed only due to the equipment differing. Is Exit expected to be yet in possession of this info ?

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Hi only just heard of this. Sorry can't manage to read through entire thread. Says its unavailable to buy now.... anywhere else you can get it. Thanks xx

 

[Living sucks]

Hi only just heard of this. Sorry can't manage to read through entire thread. Says its unavailable to buy now.... anywhere else you can get it. Thanks xx

Nope. But i find it very interesting you'd buy a device without reading this thread to educate yourself.

 

[Notabadguy]

It would be interesting to get the policy of their forum...
Ask @Yomyom his opinion
If not sent to jail time for asking, I'm guessing you might have an answer that would be a convolution of the question.
Didn't get the PMs part ? PMs are now disabled there

PS: despite the concerns, the exit bag just seems to work, barely any survival. I'm hardly seeing what kind of feedback there's to get, unless transposing with hypothesis. Would you follow theories that have not been validated with practice ? I simply mean, there's a lack of documentation of cases gone wrong, that could be revealed only due to the equipment differing. Is Exit expected to be yet in possession of this info ?

I suppose neither Exit has yet info validated with practice. But perhaps, only perhaps, it's not necessary, I don't know, maybe the possibility of the existence or not of a leaking supossedly leading to end up with brain damage, is a concern that can be answered by physicians, without need of practice. That is what I would like to know if it's been answered in Exit forums.

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Nope. But i find it very interesting you'd buy a device without reading this thread to educate yourself.

Just trying to see if it was available and looked legit . Dont feel well enough to trek through 34 pages at the moment as I explained if that's OK with you. Loads of info on page supposed to be selling it. Bit of understanding for ppl please.

 

[Living sucks]

Just trying to see if it was available and looked legit . Dont feel well enough to trek through 34 pages at the moment as I explained if that's OK with you. Bit of understanding for ppl please.

Sorry .. i am understanding however these 34 pages have a lot of information about its potential shortcomings, availability, pictures, instructions, shipping etc.. it's too much to summarize and everyone is advised to do as much research as possible. That's all.

 

[enjolras]

I suppose neither Exit has yet info validated with practice. But perhaps, only perhaps, it's not necessary, I don't know, maybe the possibility of the existence or not of a leaking supossedly leading to end up with brain damage, is a concern that can be answered by physicians, without need of practice. That is what I would like to know if it's been answered in Exit forums.

I'd rather ask a neurologist in activity than the gang of Exit (including the satelite doctors, I remember some who didn't appear involved). Too bad, I knew a highly acclaimed one but I lost touch.

I admit to be rather like GoodPersonEffed, not having an excess of faith in their operations. It inspired me distrust the more feedback arrived at me. About the ReBreather, PN displayed himself as without conviction (more than) once, that's one time too many. I'm ready to trust PN based on concrete observations (a_strange_day reported me some) but not on assumptions. To me, I consider to face essentially an information collector, somewhat qualified but with limitations. That puzzles me, because as an info hub and following up, there's a lot of room for improvement...

That said, I'm not insensitive... since for you the issues are very concrete for soon (I'm sorry), I understand the attraction to seek psychological reassurance.

Not drawing conclusions, food for thought.
Looking at brain death following apnea
"The absence of breathing for more than 5 minutes may cause damage to the vital organs"
Looking at agonal breathing (if we consider it the distinct stage after the "cessation of breathing" earlier)
"Agonal breathing can sometimes last several hours, but without medical intervention, it can lead to serious brain damage, even death"
That would correspond to the case 4 of Dignitas (~40min), so that person would potentially be better not "reanimated" for safety. Can you get back from agonal breathing ? "Mechanical ventilation may also be necessary to get air into the lungs and restart oxygen flow through the body." Not given a hand, it could be compromised.
If a leak was enough to wake you up before criticality, may there be brain damage but non-severe like alpinists coming back ? I didn't get the info. I'd like to be certain that there's no injury to fear if the contortions phase with low oxygen is interrupted / disturbed.
How likely would the timing need to be bad ? Given the uncertainty, the conduct would be to make sure that the mask stays untouched.
I'd really want to come up with something (only half joking). Then only, I'd be confident.



Back to the basics, any concrete idea for the seal to be out of touch ? Bondage aficionados ?!

 

[Soul]

I'm half asleep so forgive my stupidity, ok? This device is basically the same as an Exit Bag, but with a mask instead of a bag, right? Could your doubts be assuaged at all by adding a bag over your head & mask?