Controversial Opinion. You don't have to agree.

[Sleeper System]

I remember growing up I use to hear stories about people not only committing suicide but actually murdering their own loved ones before finally ending themselves. I use to think wow that is so cruel and unessessary. What a bad evil person.

You ask me now how I feel about that now and I would tell you that all I see is the understanding of life, the double edged sword of love, and the self accountability and mercy of the connections you've created. A little bit of selfishness aswell. But not evil. No longer evil.

Imagine living every day in this cycle of depression but trying to power through it for the sake of your family.
Then one day you break completely and decide you have to end your own life to escape the pain.
You analyze your life and see that your passing will mean a traumatic and difficult time for your wife, kids, friends, secondary family, etc.
In that moment, you think to show love and mercy the only way you know how. Taking them with you.
The thought of putting them through the your own death and having to deal with the aftermath becomes too much to bare.
You try to make it quick and painless. You comfort them in their final moments. You might even see no need for that I just take them one by one fast and emotionless so you don't feel the burden of your own actions in that moment. They don't understand and they're scared but you know what existence is and maybe you don't even have the heart to tell them. Regardless, they are gone. They are free.
And now it's time for you to be free too. So you end your own life.

It's so sad. It's so painful. It's selfish. It's selfless. It's irrational. It's love. It's everything and nothing. I can't judge it. Not anymore.

 

[Anonymoususer1234]

Nah, that's fucked. Suicide is about a person's right to choose. I am unsympathetic to those who try to take away others people's rights, even if they have good intentions. Forcing someone to die is a lot like forcing them to live, in that way.

 

[IHurtTheOneILove]

I remember growing up I use to hear stories about people not only committing suicide but actually murdering their own loved ones before finally ending themselves. I use to think wow that is so cruel and unessessary. What a bad evil person.

You ask me now how I feel about that now and I would tell you that all I see is the understanding of life, the double edged sword of love, and the self accountability and mercy of the connections you've created. A little bit of selfishness aswell. But not evil. No longer evil.

Imagine living every day in this cycle of depression but trying to power through it for the sake of your family.
Then one day you break completely and decide you have to end your own life to escape the pain.
You analyze your life and see that your passing will mean a traumatic and difficult time for your wife, kids, friends, secondary family, etc.
In that moment, you think to show love and mercy the only way you know how. Taking them with you.
The thought of putting them through the your own death and having to deal with the aftermath becomes too much to bare.
You try to make it quick and painless. You comfort them in their final moments. You might even see no need for that I just take them one by one fast and emotionless so you don't feel the burden of your own actions in that moment. They don't understand and they're scared but you know what existence is and maybe you don't even have the heart to tell them. Regardless, they are gone. They are free.
And now it's time for you to be free too. So you end your own life.

It's so sad. It's so painful. It's selfish. It's selfless. It's irrational. It's love. It's everything and nothing. I can't judge it. Not anymore.

View attachment 124925

Highly disagree, CBT is a choice and taking that choice and forcing it on someone else is fucked up

 

[AInilam]

I agree with Anonymous, everyone should have the right to choose. I don't think that right should be taken away from anyone. I don't see family as an extension of ourselves, they have their own dreams and ambitions. If a member understands your pain and wishes to go with you that's another story but to make that choice for them would be needlessly cruel and unforgiveable. I'd rather my family move on, I'm sure in time they'll learn to cope with the loss as they've learned to cope with everything so far. If there is an afterlife I'd like to meet them there again in time--if not well, then at least they can be rest assured that I'm no longer suffering.

 

[annointed_towers]

I don't agree with it, but I get it. I actually had a similar thought not long ago when I was wishing my parents were passed on already to not be devastated when I go. I don't think it's right but I think I understand now why people do it, especially those with dependent children.

 

[Sleeper System]

It would be a difficult choice for me.

I don't agree with it, but I get it. I actually had a similar thought not long ago when I was wishing my parents were passed on already to not be devastated when I go. I don't think it's right but I think I understand now why people do it, especially those with dependent children.

It would be a hard decision for me personally but knowing what we all know about the pointlessness of this life and hoping they're ignorant enought to be able to go through life with the veil over their eyes seems wrong. I agree that ctb is a very personal choice and I don't agree you have the right to harm others based on how you feel. I just can no longer see it so black and white anymore. I would want to spare my family any and all hardship even if it meant I had to carry the sin of taking them with me.

 

[R_N]

Nah, that's fucked. Suicide is about a person's right to choose. I am unsympathetic to those who try to take away others people's rights, even if they have good intentions. Forcing someone to die is a lot like forcing them to live, in that way.

This but with one exception. Someone kept alive as a vegetable shouldn't be a thing especially if they are suffering a lot. It is very cruel to keep someone alive like that, it is ruthless torture.

 

[Sleeper System]

Nah, that's fucked. Suicide is about a person's right to choose. I am unsympathetic to those who try to take away others people's rights, even if they have good intentions. Forcing someone to die is a lot like forcing them to live, in that way.

Murder is either acceptable or not acceptable. The difference between you ctbing or you taking someone elses life seems to be hypocritical and attempting to justify an act that you would classify as ok in one situation and not okay in another. It's a difficult thing to come to terms with and i'll im saying is I get it.

This but with one exception. Someone kept alive as a vegetable shouldn't be a thing especially if they are suffering a lot. It is very cruel to keep someone alive like that, it is ruthless torture.

Ruthless tortune. That seems like the same definition I would use to describe someone technically completely healthy but still dealing with mental disorder and not being allowed to ctb in a peaceful and dignified matter. In that regard, there is no difference.

 

[DoubleUp8]

Reminds me of Dylan's Ballad of Hollis Brown. My age is showing

 

[AInilam]

It would be a difficult choice for me.

It would be a hard decision for me personally but knowing what we all know about the pointlessness of this life and hoping they're ignorant enought to be able to go through life with the veil over their eyes seems wrong. I agree that ctb is a very personal choice and I don't agree you have the right to harm others based on how you feel. I just can no longer see it so black and white anymore. I would want to spare my family any and all hardship even if it meant I had to carry the sin of taking them with me.

People who wish to ctb are a small minority and while it's common to consider the idea at some point in your life, not many have the desire or nerve to actually go through with it. You may see life as pointless but others may find happiness and fulfilment in it, even if that joy may be fleeting and far-inbetween. I know I wouldn't want someone to cut my life short because there are some things I'd like to enjoy before the time comes. (I plan on throwing myself a little home-coming party first.) Families naturally will mourn the loss of their loved ones--but think about all the people who also love them just as much as they love you. You will not be doing your loved ones a favor, in fact you'd be doing the exact opposite. You'd be creating a cataclysm of pain and suffering that is both irreversible and unjustifiable.

 

[Sleeper System]

Reminds me of Dylan's Ballad of Hollis Brown. My age is showing

Absolutely. I think the idea crosses more peoples minds than people think.

 

[edu0z]

but knowing what we all know about the pointlessness of this life

you know nothing

 

[Sleeper System]

People who wish to ctb are a small minority and while it's common to consider the idea at some point in your life, not many have the desire or nerve to actually go through with it. You may see life as pointless but others may find happiness and fulfilment in it, even if that joy may be fleeting and far-inbetween. I know I wouldn't want someone to cut my life short because there are some things I'd like to enjoy before the time comes. (I plan on throwing myself a little home-coming party first.) Families naturally will mourn the loss of their loved ones--but think about all the people who also love them just as much as they love you. You will not be doing your loved ones a favor, in fact you'd be doing the exact opposite. You'd be creating a cataclysm of pain and suffering that is both irreversible and unjustifiable.

Disagree. This is like perpetuating the illusion of "living". Death is the final destination of everything that lives and I'm thinking more in terms of the immediate family. The one you yourself created. If it were like a relative, then I would give them the choice. But my wife who I chose and who chose me and the children that we brought into thise word? My heart and my seed? No. I can't see the choice being so simple as ill just die myself and roll the dice on their future when I can bring us all eternal peace. Nothing matters when you're dead. What they could have felt or for how long etc would be irrelevant. That's just my prospective.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I understand where you're coming from but I don't agree. However I used to. Hell, I didn't even stop at loved ones, I applied it to every single human to ever exist. I mean, everybody suffers and the younger somebody dies, the less they'll suffer overall hence it'd be beneficial to eradicate everybody as early as possible as it minimises the total amount of suffering overall (which is just basically negative utilitarianism). However I noticed two major flaws here.

Sure, the premises themselves aren't wrong as it's true everybody suffers and it's true that the younger a person dies, the less that same person would suffer overall but the issue is that I dislike suffering more than the general population (hell perhaps even more than a lot of suicidal people themselves) but a lot of people don't see suffering the way I do. They aren't weak willed like me to give in to suffering that is trivial to a lot of people nor have they suffered a lot (whatever "a lot" means to them) to consider death over being alive. The same would most likely apply to loved ones too though there will be exceptions of course. However, most loved ones will move on with their lives and will not deem their loss to be great enough to prefer death over living.

The second reason why I no longer agree with you is because of why I see murder as immoral but suicide as not immoral. The reason why I see murder as immoral and not suicide is because the former involves violating somebody's consent without their input on the matter where the latter is due to how the one ctb-ing have made their choice and have not been violated of their consent. Even if a loved one is going to be severely traumatised by your death, that doesn't mean that, from their perspective, they're better off dead than living with the trauma. They never consented to this to begin with

Here's an additional point. How would you make sure to actually kill them before you ctb? What if you do end up killing them but then you fail to kill yourself? You'd just contemplate everything you did in jail. Alternatively, what if you think you killed them but they actually got rescued and you didn't as your loved ones suffer a massive amount of pain in the hospital. Sure you'd be free but your idea to set them free failed and now they're suffering even more than they would have

 

[R_N]

you know nothing

Jon Snow.

 

[Sleeper System]

you know nothing

Neither do you so why try to use it against me? I know what I know and you know what you know. What a useless contribution. But I accept your participation.

 

[AInilam]

Disagree. This is like perpetuating the illusion of "living". Death is the final destination of everything that lives and I'm thinking more in terms of the immediate family. The one you yourself created. If it were like a relative, then I would give them the choice. But my wife who I chose and who chose me and the children that we brought into thise word? My heart and my seed? No. I can't see the choice being so simple as ill just die myself and roll the dice on their future when I can bring us all eternal peace. Nothing matters when you're dead. What they could have felt or for how long etc would be irrelevant. That's just my prospective.

''Your seed''? I'm sorry but the second ''your seed'' entered this world they have rights and autonomous agencies that is forever theirs till the day they die. They do not belong to you in that sense, they are now their own person. If you wanted to make that choice you should've done it before they were born. If nothing matters when you're dead then apply this logic to yourself and yourself only. You made the choice to bring them into this world--you made the choice to get married, that is no fault of their own. If there's a score you'd like to settle with yourself after coming to certain realizations, that's fine--but leave them out of it.

 

[Peaceful Departure]

I agree with op in understanding why people do it when i never used to, but for completely different reasons. If you've been abused to literal death, taking out your abusers before you go not only gives a sense of justice to what happened to you, but also pressures you further into going through with ctb.
I understand how people get to that point now. I feel this is also how the vast majority of serial killers are created.

 

[Sleeper System]

I understand where you're coming from but I don't agree. However I used to. Hell, I didn't even stop at loved ones, I applied it to every single human to ever exist. I mean, everybody suffers and the younger somebody dies, the less they'll suffer overall hence it'd be beneficial to eradicate everybody as early as possible as it minimises the total amount of suffering overall (which is just basically negative utilitarianism). However I noticed two major flaws here.

Sure, the premises themselves aren't wrong as it's true everybody suffers and it's true that the younger a person dies, the less that same person would suffer overall but the issue is that I dislike suffering more than the general population (hell perhaps even more than a lot of suicidal people themselves) but a lot of people don't see suffering the way I do. They aren't weak willed like me to give in to suffering that is trivial to a lot of people nor have they suffered a lot (whatever "a lot" means to them) to consider death over being alive. The same would most likely apply to loved ones too though there will be exceptions of course. However, most loved ones will move on with their lives and will not deem their loss to be great enough to prefer death over living.

The second reason why I no longer agree with you is because of why I see murder as immoral but suicide as not immoral. The reason why I see murder as immoral and not suicide is because the former involves violating somebody's consent without their input on the matter where the latter is due to how the one ctb-ing have made their choice and have not been violated of their consent. Even if a loved one is going to be severely traumatised by your death, that doesn't mean that, from their perspective, they're better off dead than living with the trauma. They never consented to this to begin with

Here's an additional point. How would you make sure to actually kill them before you ctb? What if you do end up killing them but then you fail to kill yourself? You'd just contemplate everything you did in jail. Alternatively, what if you think you killed them but they actually got rescued and you didn't as your loved ones suffer a massive amount of pain in the hospital. Sure you'd be free but your idea to set them free failed and now they're suffering even more than they would have

I suppose it comes down to planning and conviction in terms of making sure to avoid that outcome at all costs. I would not allow a high percentage of failure if this was my ultimate goal.

I can't agree with you. Murder is murder and if you justify one then you can justify the other. The moral high ground is thin ice when you discuss abstract thought.
My conviction about existence as I watch it play out through my own very eyes is the only foundation I can stand on and it's principles are simple. Life is more trouble than it's worth. No one can prove me right. No one can prove me wrong. So anyone involved with me is a benificiary/victim of my beliefs I guess.

''Your seed?'' I'm sorry but the second ''your seed'' entered this world they have rights and autonomous agencies that is forever theirs till the day they die. They do not belong to you in that sense, they are now their own person. If nothing matters when you're dead then apply this logic to yourself and yourself only. You made the choice to bring them into this world--you made the choice to get married, that is no fault of their own. If there's a score you'd like to settle with yourself after certain realizations, that's fine--but leave them out of it.

This would be an acceptable logical if the children were grown up and not under my immediate care and supervision. You're talking about possession while i'm talking about responsibility and duty. My seed. I don't expect this world to love or charish them as I would and that's the cold hard fact. How many children are abandoned in this world? Some make it. Some dont. Some argue take the gamble but i'd argue not with that. I can control the outcome because I am where I am. So I will If I have to.

 

[edu0z]

Neither do you so why try to use it against me?

Me? I am a source of wisdom... for example: did you know that the diameter of earth is 4 times the moon?... you're welcome

 

[Sleeper System]

Me? I am a source of wisdom... for example: did you know that the diameter of earth is 4 times the moon?... you're welcome

Thanks for contributing.

I agree with op in understanding why people do it when i never used to, but for completely different reasons. If you've been abused to literal death, taking out your abusers before you go not only gives a sense of justice to what happened to you, but also pressures you further into going through with ctb.
I understand how people get to that point now. I feel this is also how the vast majority of serial killers are created.

The moment you can justify one form of murder, you can justify all.
It's the reason batman never kills. At least... until fairly recently. (Anicdote)
I think serial killers are a mixture of many factors. They're rare by societal standards.

 

[AInilam]

I suppose it comes down to planning and conviction in terms of making sure to avoid that outcome at all costs. I would not allow a high percentage of failure if this was my ultimate goal.

I can't agree with you. Murder is murder and if you justify one then you can justify the other. The moral high ground is thin ice when you discuss abstract thought.
My conviction about existence as I watch it play out through my own very eyes is the only foundation I can stand on and it's principles are simple. Life is more trouble than it's worth. No one can prove me right. No one can prove me wrong. So anyone involved with me is a benificiary/victim of my beliefs I guess.

This would be an acceptable logical if the children were grown up and not under my immediate care and supervision. You're talking about possession while i'm talking about responsibility and duty. My seed. I don't expect this world to love or charish them as I would and that's the cold hard fact. How many children are abandoned in this world? Some make it. Some dont. Some argue take the gamble but i'd argue not with that. I can control the outcome because I am where I am. So I will If I have to.

Then take responsibility and AT LEAST wait till they're at an age where they can fend for themselves. You don't know what life they might live, raising kids can be stressful and depressing at times but you might even change your mind as you find purpose and joy in life together. I can't believe I'm even having this discussion. You made the decision to bring them into this world and now because you want to bail out you think it's okay to take innocent lives with you? It's people like you that make me want to leave this world as soon as possible. You know you're in the wrong if you have to stoop so low as to even consider doing such a thing behind your wife's back, let alone asking the opinions of complete strangers on it.

 

[TheLastGreySky]

The major flaw in this thinking is that you're under the assumption that your wife and kids will suffer your illness. Understand what WE feel that life is, isn't necessarily what someone else feels or thinks about existence. Your kids have the right to grow and experience first love, their first car, and you don't have the right to take that from them. No matter what pain we feel, it is wrong to hurt the ones we love intentionally, and suicide is different in the regards that you are suffering.
YOU need to handle YOUR shit. If you end yourself, it's something I understand... but killing the people you love is sick.
And I'm not targeting you when I say YOU, I am generalizing.

 

[Sleeper System]

Then take responsibility and AT LEAST wait till they're at an age where they can fend for themselves to ctb. You don't know what life they might live, raising kids can be stressful and depressing at times but you might even change your mind as you find purpose and joy in life together. I can't believe I'm even having this discussion. You made the decision to bring them into this world and now because you want to bail out you think it's okay to take innocent lives with you? It's people like you that make me want to leave this world as soon as possible. You know you're in the wrong if you have to stoop so low as to even consider doing such a thing behind your wife's back, let alone asking the opinions of complete strangers on it.

We're at the age where we're able to fend for ourselves with CTB.
So tell me... is it easy for you? Are you having grand old time?
Again, to me all that what if life this what if life that talk is all just a facade to justify continuing to exist when you know for yourself that it's futile. And again, murder is murder. You lose the right to judge when you can accept one form but not another, sorry. Agree to disagree.

 

[tidal1]

Oof, I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I might catch some flack for this, but I believe that if you're contemplating CTB you already have some sort of mental health issue. It's not fair to drag others who may not have that issue down with you.

A lot of people may experience grief or depression after someone close to them ctbs. That's only natural. But a lot of them are able to overcome or manage whatever mental health issue the trauma triggers in time.

People who are looking to ctb have an unresolved mental health issue. I'm not saying that they haven't tried to treat it or they haven't exhausted their treatment options, it's just that they're obviously not well and suffering from something. It's not fair to drag otherwise 'healthy people' with you because a lot of folks are able to overcome trauma and get better. You need to give them the autonomy and chance to do that.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

Imagine being so narcissistic that you feel like you need to kill your own family so they won't have to bare the burden of your death. Usually people do this to save themselves from their loved ones finding out about some sort of failure. Family annihilators are scum.

 

[Sleeper System]

The major flaw in this thinking is that you're under the assumption that your wife and kids will suffer your illness. Understand what WE feel that life is, isn't necessarily what someone else feels or thinks about existence. Your kids have the right to grow and experience first love, their first car, and you don't have the right to take that from them. No matter what pain we feel, it is wrong to hurt the ones we love intentionally, and suicide is different in the regards that you are suffering.
YOU need to handle YOUR shit. If you end yourself, it's something I understand... but killing the people you love is sick.
And I'm not targeting you when I say YOU, I am generalizing.

It's not an illness. It's a condition of thought and/or experience. The term "illness" is given by those that want to believe there is a cure other than the obvious. (Death)
The opposite of this "illness" is living a dellusion that there is a purpose to your life and that you even matter in the grand scheme. We are grains of sand of a beach.
I feel like I see it as I know something that they don't know or have the capacity to understood so will pretend that this is not reality? I'd already be in ctb mode so it's already not likely that my thought will change. If you view ctb as the ultimate freedom and rest from this world and you would deprive them of that and sacrifce them to this illusion then that's your choice. but it is not righteous or moral. Don't get it twisted.

 

[AInilam]

We're at the age where we're able to fend for ourselves with CTB.
So tell me... is it easy for you? Are you having grand old time?
Again, to me all that what if life this what if life that talk is all just a facade to justify continuing to exist when you know for yourself that it's futile. And again, murder is murder. You lose the right to judge when you can accept one form but not another, sorry. Agree to disagree.

Murder and suicide is NOT the same thing. This is why we have court rulings to differentiate when a murder is in self-defense or because someone kills for the sole pleasure of it. Not everyone's reasons for wanting to ctb is the same either. To color these things in black and white while knowing the nuances is what makes a difference is just being willfully ignorant at best and insidious at worst. I wish to die because I was given a poor hand growing up, was abused emotionally, sexually and physically. I know other people can't relate, some people live happy and fulfilling lives even having gone through much worse. It is not up to ME or YOU to make the decision whether or not someone should or shouldn't, can or cannot experience/endure the highs and lows of this life once they have become apart of it. That is solely up to them. Wait until they're older and ask yourself again if ctb is something you want, if you do go through with it and it brings them enough pain that they might consider it for themselves--that is their story to tell, that is their decision to make, not yours.

 

[Sleeper System]

Imagine being so narcissistic that you feel like you need to kill your own family so they won't have to bare the burden of your death. Usually people do this to save themselves from their loved ones finding out about some sort of failure. Family annihilators are scum.

Not the burden of your death. but the burden of existing in a world void of your life. Look around you at how many people are lost in this world that actually have others in their lives. Love is a deep affliction. It can't be underestimated how deep those roots go. Narcissism is not what im talking about. I'm not talking from the prospective of this grand all providing the world revolves around me im the prize position. You misunderstand but that's ok. Thanks for participating.

Murder and suicide is NOT the same thing. This is why we have court rulings to differentiate when a murder is in self-defense or because someone kills for the sole pleasure of it. Not everyone's reasons for wanting to ctb is the same either. To color these things in black and white while knowing the nuances is what makes a difference is just being willfully ignorant at best and insidious at worst. I wish to die because I was given a poor hand growing up, was abused emotionally, sexually and physically. I know other people can't relate, some people live happy and fulfilling lives even having gone through much worse. It is not up to ME or YOU to make the decision whether or not someone should or shouldn't, can or cannot experience/endure the highs and lows of this life once they have become apart of it. That is solely up to them. Wait until they're older and ask yourself again if ctb is something you want, if you do go through with it and it brings them pain that they might consider it for themselves--that is their story to tell, that is their decision to make, not yours.

You lost me at court rulings. That's a construct of society. The same system that would deny people the right to CTB for "good reason" in the first place. You're talking about laws and the moral distinction of right and wrong as seen throught the eyes of a generalized constituent. I have a responsibility and duty to my family. One that I can not in good conscious gamble and pass on to that society in the HOPE that they might endure or continue to be sheep in this dellusion that life has any meaning or worth living.

 

[AInilam]

Not the burden of your death. but the burden of existing in a world void of your life. Look around you at how many people are lost in this world that actually have others in their lives. Love is a deep affliction. It can't be underestimated how deep those roots go. Narcissism is not what im talking about. I'm not talking from the prospective of this grand all providing the world revolves around me im the prize position. You misunderstand but that's ok. Thanks for participating.

You lost me at court rulings. That's a construct of society. The same system that would deny people the right to CTB for "good reason" in the first place. You're talking about laws and the moral distinction of right and wrong as seen throught the eyes of a generalized constituent. I have a responsibility and duty to my family. One that I can not in good conscious gamble and pass on to that society in the HOPE that they might endure or continue to be sheep in this dellusion that life has any meaning or worth living.

If this was how you felt then WHY bring them into this world to begin with? People like you make me sick. I'm sorry but I have to block you for my own sake and sanity. but before I do I want you to do them and yourself a favor. If you're honestly considering going through with this--just leave them. Get a divorce. Trust me, they'll be way better off then having a father who considers taking the lives of his OWN CHILDREN and their mother as doing them a favor.