Discussion Afterlife (and related) general discussion

[KCN]

I think it's nothingness

Finally somebody who speaks some sense.

The worst nightmare would be reincarnation.

There's no reincarnation or such. Uninformed people like to think otherwise because they cling on the false narrative about "energy recycling", but thermodynamics and entropy don't work in the way they wish to. Nothing can maintain the same conformation forever

 

[creatureoflight]

I totally believe in the afterlife. I have read and heard hundreds of near death experiencers talk about the afterlife and what happened to them. I also believe in reincarnation. For me, suicide is not a sin. I believe in a creator God but not like in the Bible. I myself have had astral projections and personally know 3 people who have also had astral projections. I talked to a NDEr on Skype once who died in a motorcycle accident. He told me he came back because of his mother and he didn't want her to suffer over his death. I have read so many books on this subject and scientific viewpoints that it seems highely unlikely to me that we are only our bodies. I wanted to kill myself 6 years ago and made a conscious choice not to because of my afterlife beliefs. My whole life is based on them and the thought of death and the afterlife gives me so much hope to actually go on struggling. I would have been dead long ago save for the stories where you get to see and feel how your suicide affects others. Unfortunately, I have a family depending on me so I cannot just dump them even though I really, really want to. I believe in the end, all will be well and we will all be reunited on the other side. God/the creator is the most important thing to me in my existence and the one I love most. So by comitting suicide, I get to be closer to Gd quicker and that is something to look forward to. So yeah-def a believer!

 

[Fylobatica]

Uninformed people like to think otherwise because they cling on the false narrative about "energy recycling

oh man, I feel you. if I could get a dime out of every time I heard a believer spouting the "we're all energy, reeeeeeeee!" hogwash to justify the unjustifiable, because in their minds 'everything looks like it's possible'...

it's obvious that most people read about the effects of what they call NDEs, pure physical phenomena, our brains share a common physiology. It wouldn't be surprising if in my brain were found the same anatomical regions that I share with other 7 billions people...

Also, it's kind of funny that some patients who had some brain traumatic injury "talk about the afterlife" once their brain snaps out of low levels of perceived consciousness, since this implies that they were somehow bounced back from the realm of the dead. Wow... A simpler and more correct explanations would be that NDES are natural reactions of our brains to situations of extreme stress as a natural biofeedback.

The same can be told about 'projections' and such.

But people like to think that after death can happen more than what happened in life, they can become literally everything like a shapeshifting creature. Well, I'll become the Sun itself and I'll start a nuclear chain reaction just for shitz 'n' giggles... Good luck with that!

 

[samhelloall9]

I was raised Catholic. Then tried a few other like other christian denominations. became atheist (not the militant or activist type either) about a year or two years ago now. I like to attribute that quote to Steve Jobs, where he reportedly said he's 50/50 on an afterlife. Personally though now, I personally feel 100 percent comfortable if there is no deity and no God or Gods, but I would be as happy in my ideal afterlife world as I would be finding nothing there at all. At least I personally feel comfortable knowing there's no hell or damnation :)

i've got quite a few ideas of what my ideal afterlife would look like. but then i'm always changing it or then reminding myself "forget it, it's likely nothingness anyway".

 

[Blackbird]

I don't think there is an afterlife, but even if there is, we humans have just no way of knowing what it's like.

 

[Xmac000]

There are some people that are born with neurological diseases that render them completely brain dead or barely conscious. It sucks that they never get a chance at life and would just cease into nothing after that.

That aside there is no proof that we dont have souls or something else binded to our bodies that we simply cannot locate. I'm a atheist but i have a gut feeling that something else besides a meat computer embodided in fluid (the brain) is at work here.

I dont believe theres a omnipotent and omnipresent god because i simply dont believe something can be that powerful and the probability of that is extremely low. Its the same probability of santa clause claus existing and well you get the point. I dohowever believe that we may have an inner spirit. Something else besides our conciousness driving us.

 

[ningaman151]

I think I've devoted more than one hundred posts to this topic, so I'll summarize them shortly answering that I don't have any belief in an afterlife -no matter how we're trying to fabricate it imagining all kinds of praises or punishments while we're alive-.

Our brain requires an exceptionally fine tuning to perform its functions and maintain through time our personality, the sense of self, and there's striking evidence about it. This machinery is not physically equipped to "pop out" its contents in a supposed n-th dimension where we could go on living indefinitely.

Anyway, I don't want to bore anybody. I just find it weird that people like speculating about possible other conclusions, since they would require death to deliberate about what's real and what's not.

Your stance makes the most sense and is backed up by evidence, and up to until recently I had exactly the same view as you. However once you take other things into consideration other ideas start to have some sense behind them.

It would make sense if nothing existed at all, and it is unreal that there is a universe, with such vastness and complexity. I feel as if this alone suggests that there is more of which we don't know about. We are only concious after we are concious, but we know things exist when we don'tt. We have never experienced not being concious, so it makes no sense to "not exist" or not have a sense of time.

For example, we were technically dead before we were born, and empirically we know 13.7 billion years passed. If someone were to tell you the universe only existed for thousands of years it would make no difference to us, and up to this day there are people who still believe that. Obviously now we know that the universe had to be that old for things to be how they are now. However the matter and energy that makes up our body always existed. We all know the conservation of energy, and if consiousness is just material then it cannot be destroyed. I know that we do not even know what consiousness is to this day. Are all living things consious and sentient? If so then why does no one remember when they were in the womb or their birth etc. I know that the human body changes it's atoms every couple of decades, I am not saying you are the atoms that make up your body.

I do not claim to have answers, all I'm trying to do is give food for thought on a topic we barely know anything about. Maybe if humanity survives a couple of more thousand years we can start to have meaningful disscussions about conciousness, or maybe our primitive minds will never be able to comprehend such subjects. Think about how limited we are. Our whole commication system is based on changes of air pressure (sound). Our lifespans are nothing relative to the age of the universe, and we have to rely on our primitive methods of communication to teach the next generation what we know. A little rant but come on, we could have at least evolved thought communication using mediumless communication (yes that's a thing, still in research though) or electromagnetic waves. There is only so much you can acheive with such limitations, let's see what happens.

 

[Fylobatica]

It would make sense if nothing existed at all

uh, I think that something actually has to exist in order to develop the mainframe of events (our lives, other animals' lives, the whole set of discoveries about the sub-atomic world, etc.). The fact that our perceptions are limited is obvious, but in this specific case doesn't threaten the implications that a personality and the sense of self still are allowed by a complex web of interactions called the connectome (our mind).

About the nature of consciousness I've posted some links in other related discussions, and it's something that arises from the interaction of specific brain areas, that once dismantled cannot regain the same form again due to constraints of genetics, epiphenomenality and the specific lineage of the newborn. We're irreplaceable and we get only one shot at life, to sum it up.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I think there is no afterlife. It defeats the purpose of evolution. Why would nature give us so many weapons and tools to adapt and survive if we simply could log out and chill forever in some kind of utopia? Doesn't make any sense. This world is cold and cruel and any interpretation of afterlife contradicts that experience and anything science has found out about life so far.

I'm surprised that so many people fear nothingness though. It already happened to you, before you were born. And it's gonna be exactly the same once you die. That's nothing to be afraid of. It means we're free from all the struggles. It means freedom for me.

 

[samhelloall9]

I've been in two minds lately, last few months, wondering whether I should have one afterlife or two afterlifes, and that I get to enjoy both, but in the second one, it's more a reincarnation, so I won't have any memory of this life or the first afterlife. Think parallel universes and multiverses and those Marvel type films, same character, different actor, but also same character. If any of that makes sense, but hey, I guess it's my imagination and my potential afterlife, so I can make it what I want it to be, without losing too much decency or dignity. The first one will be like a happy positive version of I Am Legend. The second one, becoming like my own character in my favorite live-action television show. Ah bliss.

But then, who knows where 'I' will go then, or if it's eternal.

No matter what though, I do not want there to be a God or Gods or angels/demons. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell anymore, just as I don't believe in other mythical things anymore, like you know the tooth fairy and etc.

 

[Mecha Man]

I think I've devoted more than one hundred posts to this topic, so I'll summarize them shortly answering that I don't have any belief in an afterlife -no matter how we're trying to fabricate it imagining all kinds of praises or punishments while we're alive-.

Our brain requires an exceptionally fine tuning to perform its functions and maintain through time our personality, the sense of self, and there's striking evidence about it. This machinery is not physically equipped to "pop out" its contents in a supposed n-th dimension where we could go on living indefinitely.

Anyway, I don't want to bore anybody. I just find it weird that people like speculating about possible other conclusions, since they would require death to deliberate about what's real and what's not.

Actually I find the things you talk about quite interesting...

I think neuroscience and physics are very interesting subjects.

 

[millefeui]

I also think it's possible that we have more control over our own destiny than we think. I think if we...well, think about one form of the afterlife more than the others than that is most likely the afterlife you will have. For instance if you think you are going to hell then you will go to hell as your body is slowly drifting away because that's what you thought about most and your brain can recite it best. I think it's possible for us to have a completely different path when we die than everyone else depending on what we wanted so I guess that would make us our own God again in this theroy.

That is a scary thought, because while I have my preference for an afterlife, if there is one, what I find more likely (other than nonexistence) is far, far from ideal. Would suck to find myself in an horrible place after I die.

 

[RealMe]

That is a scary thought, because while I have my preference for an afterlife, if there is one, what I find more likely (other than nonexistence) is far, far from ideal. Would suck to find myself in an horrible place after I die.

I'm sorry I scared you. I can relate however. For a long time I was convinced I was going to be conscious of my death while being dead and a basically watch my body disintegrate and be conscious of it the whole time alone forever. That fear became so real and so strong I would sleep all day and cry every day when I woke up when I was still alive because I would have to think about it again. It became so bad eventually that i one night i became lucid in my dream and reminded myself of the fear. I woke up crying because i couldn't even escape the fear in my sleep anymore. Eventually the fear vanished. I dont onow how but it did and it doesnt bother me anymore. Maybe the same will happen to you

 

[Zanexx]

I worried about an afterlife. I really don't care at this point. According to my religion I'll go to hell for committing suicide, but I honestly feel like I'm living in hell already here on earth. I just want the pain and suffering to stop and don't care if it takes killing myself.

Are you Catholic? I just don't understand the whole thing about going to hell if you ctb. To me I feel like if God exists, they should be omnibenevolent and would therefore understand why someone needed to do it (especially given they created them) rather than punishing them for it.

 

[itsallover]

Are you Catholic? I just don't understand the whole thing about going to hell if you ctb. To me I feel like if God exists, they should be omnibenevolent and would therefore understand why someone needed to do it (especially given they created them) rather than punishing them for it.

No I'm Christian orthodox one of the oldest faiths around. I told my priest I want to die for suffering so much and that I curse at God and religion for this. He told me he does the same thing too so figure about him telling me I'll go straight to hell if I don't such a thing. I think God would show me some sympathy after all of my suffering. One of the reasons I have trouble doing is because I've been fighting this shit for two years and would like to shed some light on the medical community if I overcome this which I think I slowly am. What I've gone through has completely changed me as a person. It made me grow up and really see the ugly side of the world and people. I used to think I did something wrong when people were rude to me for instance and that everyone has good intentions. I thought all criminals were locked up and people were mostly good and innocent. That's not the case at all. Most people are garbage always looking to take advantage of you. People are animals and the worst. Ones that will kill for reasons other than survival and the list is plenty long. I wish I could be an asshole but it's really not in me. One the other hand I could kill someone who has seriously wronged me and not. I would only fear losing my freedom,but I also feel trapped in my body like it is a prison already.

 

[Rollo]

When you consider whether there's afterlife or not you need to ask - afterlife of WHAT? There are three things here - self, personality and body. I believe death is a destruction of both body and personality. Yet self is not destroyed simply because existence of self is not dependent upon existence of any particular body or personality. It's just people conflate personality with self but think of it this way - if long time ago say at age 3 you were put in entirely different enviroment then by this time you would have totally different memories and probably a different emotional structure too. Yet it would still be you wouldn't it? Or take you at 3 years old. Personally I don't even remember how it was, what this kid felt and remembered yet for him it was an immediate reality. So any kid at 3 right now is more like him than I am right now at my age of 35. Even though it was me. So in a way this kid is gone already and to me there's no problem here.

 

[RaptorHavx]

Rationally, unfortunately it seems that there is nothing after we pass... although, I don't want to believe what seems to be the truth, I just really don't want to. I wish I could truly live at last once, not just be alive... day will come to find out, or... not...

 

[RaptorHavx]

Anyone from UK around ?

 

[uxorious]

Bloody scary the idea of something afterward...... sure hope it's nothing , nothing , and more nothing

 

[AntiLifeEric]

It'd be nice to wake up to a sight like this, when you'd thought that you'd closed your eyes for the last time.

 

[Ihategodheruinedme]

Anyone afraid of suicide because of going to hell. Like it scares you that much that you can't do it because of that?

 

[BlackDragonof1989]

Anyone afraid of suicide because of going to hell. Like it scares you that much that you can't do it because of that?

*raises hand* Always. It's the main thing that holds me back honestly.

 

[KCN]

Yet self is not destroyed simply because existence of self is not dependent upon existence of any particular body or personality.

I sometimes love how people like to make false narratives and actually believe them despite the contrary empirical evidence. Tomorrow we'll hear about a magical heart that does need no heartbeat to pump blood in the organism

Anyone afraid of suicide because of going to hell. Like it scares you that much that you can't do it because of that?

It's a man-made concept and everybody seem to buy the notion that hell is the worst place ever. Imagine if the concepts of heaven and hell were swapped and hell is actually a sunny oasis with a mild climate and 4D kart racing tracks, niceties like that. We'd need to figure out how spend eternity in such a colorful amusement park, however. It's quite a long time-wasting activity livin' the afterlife.

 

[Ihategodheruinedme]

Well that's the only reason I'm stuck here. I'm miserable here and since god probably orchestrated my pain he probably send me there anyway. I feel demons are real

 

[Rollo]

I sometimes love how people like to make false narratives and actually believe them despite the contrary empirical evidence. Tomorrow we'll hear about a magical heart that does need no heartbeat to pump blood in the organism

To each his own. I personally love how people try to disagree with you without offering anything other than empty talk. Nothing false about what I said.

 

[KCN]

Nothing false about what I said.

That's what you like to think, maybe. Because it's quite the opposite. People who believe in certain things never actually documented how the sense of self, memories, knowledge, and perceptions are supposed to survive floating freely in the air after the demise of our organism

 

[Rollo]

That's what you like to think, maybe. Because it's quite the opposite. People who believe in certain things never actually documented how the sense of self, memories, knowledge, and perceptions are supposed to survive floating freely in the air after the demise of our organism

There's no "sense of self" - there's self. Senses are part of what's happening to self (beside memories, mind and perceptions). Whether or not memories of particular person can survive death of his body (which is all you can observe) is an interesting question and you can't really show and prove that they can't in one way or another. Because this issue is entirely beyond your observation. Still if you actually bothered to read my post instead of getting angry at good old Rollo you would notice that I said I believe death is the destruction of personality (which would include memories). It's just that to me it's irrelevant whether memories of any particular person survive or not. People are terrified that their particular memories will be lost but the reality is that everything prescious they hold about them is not unique and is part of some other surviving person as well. There's infinite number of humans in existence and even if you wish to separate yourself from certain types (like serial killers or pedophiles or those who's life path doesn't resemble yours) - you still end up with numerous copies of your persona.

And in the same manner self survives for the only reason that self is the same from person to person, from being to being. So it's not threatened in any way even if our planet explodes.

 

[KCN]

There's no "sense of self" - there's self.

Wrong, you can actually perceive yourself thinking

you can't really show and prove that they can't in one way or another. Because this issue is entirely beyond your observation.

Wrong. A simple cerebral ischemia is enough to botch people's memories, that highly rely on an organized and functioning dendrites network and subtle neurochemical correlations to be formed and then strenghtened and maintained

. There's infinite number of humans in existence

...what did I just read?

 

[Rollo]

Wrong, you can actually perceive yourself thinking

But perception is not sense. Sure I can imagine or remember myself thinking (or doing this and that). But it's memory that is HAPPENING TO ME. To self. Just like sense is something that's happening to me. So me is not a sense by the very nature of what's going on.

Wrong. A simple cerebral ischemia is enough to botch people's memories, that highly rely on an organized and functioning dendrites network and subtle neurochemical correlations to be formed and then strenghtened and maintained

So what? Just cause these memories are abscent doesn't mean they will never reappear. And even if natural order is as such that certain damage to the brain always leads to lifetime memory loss - when you're talking about death and it's consequences you're talking about supernatural not natural. Which you can't document.

...what did I just read?

A plain and clear statement.

 

[KCN]

Bur perception is not sense. Sure I can imagine or remember myself thinking (or doing this and that). But it's memory that is HAPPENING TO ME. To self. Just like sense is something that's happening to me. So me is not a sense by the very nature of what's going on.

heh, "happening to me" means that you can perceive it. Call it what you will, go by linguistic games, but self consciousness is as clear as the sunlight

So what? Just cause these memories are abscent doesn't mean they will never reappear.

oh yes, just because my car caught fire in a crash and got completely destroyed doesn't mean that it will never reappear again as it was before

A plain and clear statement.

more like a fantasy, that are so popular in this thread. You couldn't reach an amount of "infinite humans" even if you cloned thousandfold billions of people