Discussion Afterlife (and related) general discussion

[Shamana]

What I meant was that I understand how buddhists do not believe in a personable god so they are technically atheists but I was befuddled as to how other atheists could rationalize extra-physical phenomenon to exist that wasn't intelligently designed e.g. ghosts? It violates all the knowledge that we know and makes no intuitive sense at all.

and by "they" I'm referring to pro-lifers.



How could one have thoughts when there is no brain to generate said thoughts? Conservation of Energy exists but it does not mean that consciousness continues after death. The energy is just transferred into the environment in different kinetic ways e.g. heat, sound, etc. I suppose that reincarnation may make sense but I cannot believe that we would retain any of our past memories. It would only be a fresh perspective over and over again. I still think it is a very, very long shot but I would sooner believe in that than any form of magical realms like heaven or hell.

In buddhism there is distinction between many different kinds of conscioussness. What we call our ordinary human conscioussness is called gross consciosness which arises and ceases with the human body or nervous system. Then in buddhism we talk of a very subtle state of conscioussness called the mind of clear light which is non-arisen and does not cease, not even on the destruction of the body.

There is a branch of science called phenomology where to there is not an obsession with classifying all phenomena as objective or material. Even though it's obvious that the state and function of our mind is interdependent on our body, we cannot actually find a thought or a emotion anywhere in the body in any objective kind of way.

I don't expect atheists or to be have any respect for buddhism, but the buddhist path is all about realizing and investigating the nature of the mind. In buddhism we say that the mind's substance is like space. It's not something material, it's without center or edge. And without beginning or end. Furthermore it's endowed with luminous awareness, creativity, energy and emotion. In buddhism thoughts arise from and dissovle into the mind.

In the end of the day whatever you believe the question of the nature of conscioussness is still somewhat mystery since it can't be entirely objectified.

 

[Wayfaerer]

If "they" = "anti-choicers", their beliefs don't determine whose suicides the Roman Catholic church considers forgiveable. (Nor does the Roman Catholic church determine whom the almighty forgives for what, but that's a different matter.)

Because pro-lifers are overwhelmingly religious. That and the government really wants to keep you alive so they can milk you to death.

 

[Soul]

@Shamana, did some words go missing from this sentence of yours: "I don't expect atheists or to be have any respect for buddhism"? Could you clarify, please and thank you?

Because pro-lifers are overwhelmingly religious. That and the government really wants to keep you alive so they can milk you to death.

Once again you're conflating a bunch of things that aren't equivalent. It makes your argument all mushy.

 

[Shamana]

@Shamana, did some words go missing from this sentence of yours: "I don't expect atheists or to be have any respect for buddhism"? Could you clarify, please and thank you?



Once again you're conflating a bunch of things that aren't equivalent. It makes your argument all mushy.

Yes i left out the word materialists. Meaning people who believe that all phenomena are material in nature not in the sense of consumerism.

What I meant was that I understand how buddhists do not believe in a personable god so they are technically atheists but I was befuddled as to how other atheists could rationalize extra-physical phenomenon to exist that wasn't intelligently designed e.g. ghosts? It violates all the knowledge that we know and makes no intuitive sense at all.

and by "they" I'm referring to pro-lifers.



How could one have thoughts when there is no brain to generate said thoughts? Conservation of Energy exists but it does not mean that consciousness continues after death. The energy is just transferred into the environment in different kinetic ways e.g. heat, sound, etc. I suppose that reincarnation may make sense but I cannot believe that we would retain any of our past memories. It would only be a fresh perspective over and over again. I still think it is a very, very long shot but I would sooner believe in that than any form of magical realms like heaven or hell.

There plenty of NDE's where people have been able to describe events in the surgery room despite having seemingly no brain function.

 

[Shamana]

On the subject of clairvoyance, I would like to bring up a prophecy made 600 years ago by the 5th Karmapa. 9/10 of the prophecy is buddhist lingo which is completely uninteresting and unintelligble to your ordinary non-buddhist. However a certain part of the prediction/prophecy describes in detail that in the lifetime of the 16th Karmapa(20th century) the sky appointed emporers of China will fall(which they did to Mao) and that country will be invaded from the East and North(Which China was by Japan to the east and soviet russia from the north) and that the king of central Tibet will fall(The dalai which he did) and Tibet would be encircled by war and would be caught in a huge bloodbath and utterly destroyed(which is was by communist China. Up to 1 million Tibetans died and even more injured, tortured or fled).

Furthurmore he says that at that time flying machines will fly over Tibet. Note this was something he predicted 600 years ago that would happen in the 20th century.

http://www.thekarmapaprophecies.com/resources/The%205th%20Karmapa%27s%20Prophecies-Section%20I-Prophecies%20Arisen%20from%20Experience.pdf

Relevant historical quotes are

From now on, in the successive Karmapas the turning point will be the 16th, same as the 17th, the general Buddha Dharma including the Karma Kagyu doctrine will be like horseflies at the end of the season. 21 The line of the sky-appointed emperors of the East will end. Any outsider will try to take over that country. Faraway invaders will flood in from the east and the north. Tibet will be encircled in a ring. The reign of the king of central Tibet will come to an end.

In Central Tibet, the king will lose (his power) and an evil emanation will manifest as a minister coming from Kongpo. Central Tibet will be in a state of warfare, and its government will fall. Many faraway invaders not previously there will suddenly cover the land in great numbers. People will be deceived by evil in these bad times. They will take no interest in the dharma while consumed by suffering. Everywhere – be it in the upper, middle, or lower parts – there will be fighting everywhere. A flow of blood will spring forth from the battlefields. Due to these disputes, agitation and fighting, a place of harmony and happiness will not be found. Because of poverty and forced labour, a place of riches and ease will not be found. Due to torture and imprisonment, a place of liberty will not be found. It is not that the Triple Gem,34 the Three Roots, and the Protectors will not be able to generate blessings. Rather, conflict will arise from the collective karma of living beings, by strong and evil aspirations, and by the decline of the times.

The historically interesting stuff starts on the end of page 3.

 

[JoeFailure]

I don't think an afterlife and "God" are necessarily synonymous. Or it can depend on a definition of God. It might not be a benevolent entity, it could just be an energy source that creates random shit.

I kind of think it makes sense that we could be back as "ourselves" at some point. It's an interesting theory considering forever is a loooong time, and energy can't be destroyed. I feel like it's possible that energy at some point in the timeline of forever would match up perfectly once again for us to be born again. I don't know if it's necessarily eternal recurrence and we would live the same or a similar life or not, but likely with the same type of brain.

It's fascinating to think about. Scary for some, I know, but I feel like that's possible. It's not necessarily what I believe. I'm still holding out hope that there's some kind of meaning for this fucked up world. Who knows. But I don't really think this is the end in one way or another. Forever is just too long for it to be. And unfortunately for some, it may not be a good thing. But here's hoping it ultimately is.

 

[Nootnoot]

I dont think there is an afterlife. If God exists, then this whole place must be His/Her private comedy ...

 

[ish]

Cemeteries are there to shape the worldview
living people. Dead to real life nothing
restore. Even God is not in this business -
The principle of God's immutability.

 

[Ritter]

It is interesting that I really did not believe in an afterlife for the longest time, but now I am looking for any sort of evidence (empirical) that might convince me that there is one. My boyfriend recently passed and it's all I can think about now is if I CTB will I see him again? I hope so, I miss him so much. As pathetic as it may seem to some I have become more open to the idea of an afterlife, if only to make myself feel better about my decision to leave.

 

[lotus11]

It is interesting that I really did not believe in an afterlife for the longest time, but now I am looking for any sort of evidence (empirical) that might convince me that there is one. My boyfriend recently passed and it's all I can think about now is if I CTB will I see him again? I hope so, I miss him so much. As pathetic as it may seem to some I have become more open to the idea of an afterlife, if only to make myself feel better about my decision to leave.

Yes but don't you feel like this is is because you have a good relationship with your boyfriend and you WANT to see him again. I would feel the same about my ex.....however, if you imagine 'seeing someone again', who you really have a bad and difficult relationship with. The idea of an afterlife where you meet people again must be really selective. I mean? what? you are able to die and choose the one or two people you would like to spend eternity with and the rest you can never see? it does seem a little ridiculous to me. For example the popular hope of 'being reunited with all your dead family members'...I mean, what if you are someone who really can't stand your family....surely this place at least could not be like heaven or nirvana. maybe a second world.

 

[Ritter]

Yes but don't you feel like this is is because you have a good relationship with your boyfriend and you WANT to see him again. I would feel the same about my ex.....however, if you imagine 'seeing someone again', who you really have a bad and difficult relationship with. The idea of an afterlife where you meet people again must be really selective. I mean? what? you are able to die and choose the one or two people you would like to spend eternity with and the rest you can never see? it does seem a little ridiculous to me. For example the popular hope of 'being reunited with all your dead family members'...I mean, what if you are someone who really can't stand your family....surely this place at least could not be like heaven or nirvana. maybe a second world.

It all depends on the type of afterlife there is (if there is one). So you're right and you can get into some real nit-picky details but without any concrete evidence it's all conjecture.

Some posit that it could be like one infinite lucid dream where you have some awareness and control to do/see what you want and it is "real" to you but might not be what everyone else is experiencing or choosing to experience.
Others state that we are all just one small consciousness inside that is actually part of a larger one and after we pass we rejoin that larger or infinite consciousness which is how you can see/experience those who came before you.

It's good to wonder about a lot of these things and to be honest there is no real way of knowing. Faith based religions are based on faith...and a lot of people accept that. The one thing we do know is that we all die. That is the one ultimate truth. What happens after? Well until we know more we can just hope and one interesting concept is if there is something after this life, that we might not be capable of understanding what it is, our piece in it, or how it works. Like trying to teach a dog how a lightbulb works, the information could be in front of it, everything it needs to know, they see the effects of the lightbulb, but they will never be capable of understanding why or how it works.


What I am going off of, is hope, maybe even desperation, that there are things I won't be able to understand but may allow me to be with, see, and hold the person I loved more than anything again.

 

[lotus11]

It all depends on the type of afterlife there is (if there is one). So you're right and you can get into some real nit-picky details but without any concrete evidence it's all conjecture.

Some posit that it could be like one infinite lucid dream where you have some awareness and control to do/see what you want and it is "real" to you but might not be what everyone else is experiencing or choosing to experience.
Others state that we are all just one small consciousness inside that is actually part of a larger one and after we pass we rejoin that larger or infinite consciousness which is how you can see/experience those who came before you.

It's good to wonder about a lot of these things and to be honest there is no real way of knowing. Faith-based religions are based on faith...and a lot of people accept that. The one thing we do know is that we all die. That is the one ultimate truth. What happens after? Well until we know more we can just hope and one interesting concept is if there is something after this life, that we might not be capable of understanding what it is, our piece in it, or how it works. Like trying to teach a dog how a lightbulb works, the information could be in front of it, everything it needs to know, they see the effects of the lightbulb, but they will never be capable of understanding why or how it works.


What I am going off of, is hope, maybe even desperation, that there are things I won't be able to understand but may allow me to be with, see, and hold the person I loved more than anything again.

well, I also hope so. it's a nice idea, at least. I understand how you feel, I love somebody like this too.

 

[JoeFailure]

Yes but don't you feel like this is is because you have a good relationship with your boyfriend and you WANT to see him again. I would feel the same about my ex.....however, if you imagine 'seeing someone again', who you really have a bad and difficult relationship with. The idea of an afterlife where you meet people again must be really selective. I mean? what? you are able to die and choose the one or two people you would like to spend eternity with and the rest you can never see? it does seem a little ridiculous to me. For example the popular hope of 'being reunited with all your dead family members'...I mean, what if you are someone who really can't stand your family....surely this place at least could not be like heaven or nirvana. maybe a second world.

I definitely think there's other "worlds" out there in the universe and way more than we could possibly comprehend.

The question is whether we have anything to do with them or if we go to one of those other worlds or dimensions after this. I think we eventually do but obviously who knows.

I know the most popular argument for nothingness seems to be that we don't remember what there was before we were born. But I like the analogy I heard once where someone said, "Well, do you remember what you had for lunch 547 days ago? That doesn't mean a lunch that day didn't happen." If there are other dimensions or worlds that we're somehow connected with, I think it's definitely plausible that we wouldn't remember anything if we were "sent" here.

But I think for me that's what this ultimately comes down to, how exactly everything is connected, if it is at all.

 

[IsadoraBeauxdraps]

Some posit that it could be like one infinite lucid dream where you have some awareness and control to do/see what you want and it is "real" to you but might not be what everyone else is experiencing or choosing to experience.
Others state that we are all just one small consciousness inside that is actually part of a larger one and after we pass we rejoin that larger or infinite consciousness which is how you can see/experience those who came before you.

I always think about that !

 

[Ky204]

I think the idea of an afterlife is somewhat comforting for many but many don't know until they die themselves. There can always be speculation but the truth is something no one truly knows.
I had a brain aneurysm when I was 18 and was clinically dead for 3 and a half minutes.
Was there a 'light' or any sign of an afterlife?It's hard to say, there was a lot of imagery and colours flashing through my 'vision' and I couldn't make out what any of them meant. It's almost impossible to explain unless you experience it.
After that everything ceased and I was in a state of nothingness.
It wasn't terrifying or painful, I just simply ceased to exist, like I was nobody.
I can honestly describe it as peaceful for lack of a better word.
Being brought back was extremely disorienting, I didn't know who I was or what was happening.
If I'm being honest I think that the positive thing that came out from that experience is that I preferred that empty void over my life here.
Maybe that can reassure someone or scare them even more, everyone's different.

 

[JoeFailure]

I think the idea of an afterlife is somewhat comforting for many but many don't know until they die themselves. There can always be speculation but the truth is something no one truly knows.
I had a brain aneurysm when I was 18 and was clinically dead for 3 and a half minutes.
Was there a 'light' or any sign of an afterlife?It's hard to say, there was a lot of imagery and colours flashing through my 'vision' and I couldn't make out what any of them meant. It's almost impossible to explain unless you experience it.
After that everything ceased and I was in a state of nothingness.
It wasn't terrifying or painful, I just simply ceased to exist, like I was nobody.
I can honestly describe it as peaceful for lack of a better word.
Being brought back was extremely disorienting, I didn't know who I was or what was happening.
If I'm being honest I think that the positive thing that came out from that experience is that I preferred that empty void over my life here.
Maybe that can reassure someone or scare them even more, everyone's different.

I think it's sad if there just ended up being nothing, but then again I wouldn't know.

It is interesting how so many people say it's peaceful, even if is "nothing". I remember hearing about a woman who said she couldn't tell either if there was something after or if it was just nothing when she was clinically dead. She said it's entirely possible as she also described some imagery but she also said how peaceful it was, as if her brain and body realized that she was free from all of her worries and she truly felt carefree for the first time in how long she could remember and that there was a bliss in that.

Like many people who have "died" and come back, she said she doesn't fear death anymore. She was almost disappointed at the time that she came back because she was so at peace. But now she says she's glad it happened that way.

I guess in the end there really isn't anything to fear necessarily. Obviously even if one of my worst nightmares comes true, which is nothingness, we don't even experience that. It just makes everything even more unfair about this world and life. Like the people who did truly awful things just get away with it, and there's no reprieve for the tortured.

 

[Ky204]

I think it's sad if there just ended up being nothing, but then again I wouldn't know.

It is interesting how so many people say it's peaceful, even if is "nothing". I remember hearing about a woman who said she couldn't tell either if there was something after or if it was just nothing when she was clinically dead. She said it's entirely possible as she also described some imagery but she also said how peaceful it was, as if her brain and body realized that she was free from all of her worries and she truly felt carefree for the first time in how long she could remember and that there was a bliss in that.

Like many people who have "died" and come back, she said she doesn't fear death anymore. She was almost disappointed at the time that she came back because she was so at peace. But now she says she's glad it happened that way.

I guess in the end there really isn't anything to fear necessarily. Obviously even if one of my worst nightmares comes true, which is nothingness, we don't even experience that. It just makes everything even more unfair about this world and life. Like the people who did truly awful things just get away with it, and there's no reprieve for the tortured.

It can honestly be taken differently depending on the person. Like you said that 'nothingness' can terrify some people since there would be no more 'life' left to live, it's just over and done with for eternity. That thought alone can screw someone's head up, but if you're a person suffering then that seems like paradise.
It makes me question all the time "what's the point in life if we all just end up dead, where our existence will end up being forgotten regardless?"
It could be scary, but like you said we wouldn't feel that fear since we'll be long gone anyway.

 

[Dartz]

I overdosed and my heart stopped for 37 seconds and was unconscious for around an hour. I can't say I care too much about whether or not there is an afterlife, but I understand the "life flashing before your eyes" concept. All I remember is violent light and blackness and fear.

 

[Rachel74]

I read somewhere else that if someone died via suicide that in the afterlife they'd still be suffering. That is so me!! I'd still after bloody bipolar!! Just my luck.

 

[Soul]

I read somewhere else that if someone died via suicide that in the afterlife they'd still be suffering. That is so me!! I'd still after bloody bipolar!! Just my luck.

To me that sounds like plain old anti-choice propaganda, designed to scare people and, as collateral damage, sorely wound anyone who loved someone who committed suicide.

None of which means it's not true. I entertain all kinds of theories about what happens when we die, but I have no idea which of them might be right.

 

[account676]

What if Elon Musk is right? We live in a simulation. If one die will they wake up in the future then?

 

[Kuolema]

I've been back and forth a lot since I was last in this thread. I suppose what I believe now is that I don't know if there is an afterlife or not and frankly I don't care. If God is going to judge me by my actions then so be it. If God is going to judge me by my faith then he can go fuck himself. I still believe in a God though. But my idea of God is an impersonal pantheistic God. Now you might say why not be an atheist? Well I don't really know the answer to that question myself. I would say atheism and pantheism are 2 different perspectives of the same conclusion, one positive one negative, but that seems like a cop out. I guess pantheism to me entails a sense of wonder and awe at the world that can only be described as religious experience. When I see the stars at night or a beautiful sunset the only thing that comes to my mind is a sense of deep reverence for nature. And in my mind nature and God are the same thing.

 

[toxicfox]

Biocentrism

If we know that matter or if you will "energy" cannot be created or destroyed, but our bodies can:

Our bodies are mere vessels to sustain our energy, our consciousness
Although the body will decompose, if matter and or energy cannot be created or destroyed, then we are not completely "gone" if you will.
That energy will have to go somewhere eventually. Could it just be a blackness of particles, with no continuing or chance of new life, or could that energy be converted into yet another being in this world or on one light years from here? Who knows... But death on itself is just an illusion, we will never be by definition "destroyed" and we will go somewhere else, wherever that may be

 

[Exitforme]

This might sound silly or crazy or whatever to some but I honestly believe the afterlife is a complete relief or detachment of whatever plagues and haunts your present life. To explain it in algebraic terms, all negatives must have an equal and corresponding positive. If this life was mostly spent in agony (negative), then the next life must mostly be spent in pleasure (positive). The universal energy must maintain perfect balance and homeostasis.

 

[Lisa]

This might sound silly or crazy or whatever to some but I honestly believe the afterlife is a complete relief or detachment of whatever plagues and haunts your present life. To explain it in algebraic terms, all negatives must have an equal and corresponding positive. If this life was mostly spent in agony (negative), then the next life must mostly be spent in pleasure (positive). The universal energy must maintain perfect balance and homeostasis.

I like the way you think I agree

 

[Maravillosa]

Below is the "Afterlife Believer-type Self Classification" scale (Thalbourne, 1996). I consider myself to fall in category 3, since I believe in an afterlife but not reincarnation. However, the culmination of category 2 — being absorbed into a Universal Consciousness — attracts me a lot. I would love to be purified of all the dross in my personality and ultimately become part of God (but not until I have experienced everything I want to experience in Heaven). My vainglorious ambitions are ridiculously silly, n'est-ce pas?

 

[Exitforme]

I like the way you think I agree

Thank you.

 

[JoeFailure]

I would love to find out and read more about what the Universal Consciousness really means for us. Like the theory that we're all really one conscious.

For whatever reason, whenever somebody says that I think of the movie "The Fly" and what Jeff Goldblum wants to do at the end. I have a weird pet peeve about not spoiling movies, even though that ones like 40 years old, so I won't spoil it, but for anyone knows what I'm talking about, that would be scary! Haha it sounds like in this case though that it's supposed to be a positive.

 

[senti-mental]

Part of my journey and my decision to eventually ctb has been finding peace with whatever comes next. I used to be worried about hell, but after doing a lot of thinking I doubt there is one. I think if there is an afterlife it's probably just a higher state of existence, maybe being one with a higher consciousness or just being a free spirit. And if there is no afterlife, then there's no need to worry because I simply would no longer be. I would be what I was before I was alive, whatever that is.

 

[Lisa]

Part of my journey and my decision to eventually ctb has been finding peace with whatever comes next. I used to be worried about hell, but after doing a lot of thinking I doubt there is one. I think if there is an afterlife it's probably just a higher state of existence, maybe being one with a higher consciousness or just being a free spirit. And if there is no afterlife, then there's no need to worry because I simply would no longer be. I would be what I was before I was alive, whatever that is.

Me2