Made4TV
A hopeless hope junkie
- Sep 17, 2018
- 574
Since reading the NYT article and talking to several mental health professionals, I have a few thoughts I'd like to share here about this site as a whole and what I've seen over the more than 3 years of being a member. For a bit of background about me, I have been off and on suicidal since age 11. I had significant traumas from birth onward, and it didn't stop in adulthood. My screen name on here alludes to this: When most people hear the short version about my life thus far (I'm in my 50s) they say "Wow, it's like some crazy made for TV movie." Yup. Except I'm the only one with the power to say "Cut!" And I do want to hold on to that card. I need to hang on to that card. I know I'm not alone in this.
What is lacking online is a place for people who are genuinely suffering to be able to be honest about their situation and be able to talk about being suicidal without automatically the cops, the hospital, etc all being involved. In the United States, laypeople don't even understand that depending on insurance (or lack), every time a suicidal person is transported to a hospital, has to go through the ER (which is often its own traumatic and triggering event), then gets transferred in an ambulance to a psych ward (again, incredibly traumatic possibilities depending on the person and the unit), by the time they are done and out they may also owe thousands of dollars in copays which is a surefire way to impede any progress made and send the hopelessness ratcheting up even higher. I was once in a hospital where 2 hours after I was admitted (I hadn't seen any doctor yet), I got a call via the nurse's station. They pulled me out of group to take this call. It was the billing department of the hospital asking how I was going to pay my co-pay bill, that they estimated would be over $500 for 3 days. They asked me to think about if I could borrow money from family or friends, or figure out a credit card, and they said they'd give me a discount if I figured out payment before I was released. This is not a unique story!!
Mental health and regular health people routinely think this is the solution to people expressing suicidal thoughts. They have pushed this idea of "if you're suicidal go to your nearest emergency room." And of course anytime someone important ends their life, everyone trots out the emergency hotline numbers. Of course this is to avoid liability in our society, or for people to alleviate fears of having failed to act, but it has had a detrimental effect on people who deal with chronic suicidality or even acute crises moments. This should honestly be the last thing on the list to promote for people with chronic issues - the ER, the ambulances for otherwise healthy people, the hospitalizations (which now in the US utilize only group--no individual--therapy) that end up being traumatic for many people when they are at their point of greatest need. Of course there are exceptions, such as someone having psychosis, or being violent and they need to get back regulated on meds, etc. Or people who need a safe, stable environment who are having a momentary crisis or moment of impulsivity from an overwhelming situation. Although I don't really know that a psych hospital is the appropriate place for that either but there aren't many other options if there are not family or friends to step in and provide support or shelter.
We have promoted in our society that the only acceptable way for suicidal people to behave is to be suicidal out of sight, or to only deal with the professionals. Regular people think they aren't equipped and it's so much easier to refer people to an ER or a hotline and not have to think about it. Any talk of suicide is now taken more seriously, but we don't have a system in place for people to express those thoughts, where the concern is about the person, instead of soley about personal liability. Regular people are not being empowered to be the friend many of us here need. I would guess that more than 50% of hospitalizations could be avoided if folks had more in real life support, felt genuine care from friends and family, or had other wraparound services.
We've also established this narrative in our society that suicide is a selfish act, that someone who dies of suicide is automatically mentally ill, and that it is an impulsive act that people can and should always be talked out of. It is also said many times that someone who has died by suicide has "wasted their life." We have an extreme preoccupation (especially in the U.S.) with all life being precious and valuable and needing to be lived to the very last labored breath. We prolong the lives of pets and babble on about how they'll let us know when the right time to go is - we don't want to take 1 minute away from their precious life. Many folks in the US feel that all human babies conceived should be born, even if there is no support for these moms or children and we prioritize cutting the services that would make birthing/raising that child manageable. People are shamed for wanting to control the end of their life, and are told they should not play God. Well don't doctors play God all the time? Every time we get a life-sustaining drug or treatment, isn't that playing God? Why are we so obsessed with life at all costs? Is it religious? I am not sure what it is but people are obsessed with it. And often it feels good to be wanting everyone to live, but if you're not actively making this world a welcoming and safe place for all people - even those different from you - then you are part of the problem. You are likely the reason some people are suicidal. Posting a hotline number doesn't change it. I can post another time about what hotline experiences are like.
At the same time, help is harder and harder to find. A safe space to talk about suicidal urges without being automatically doxxed, reported, or referred to an ER or the police is really not available outside of this forum. Many people, and the ones with the majority of severe mental health issues, are not getting good or adequate treatment. Often it is not available or cost prohibitive. Outside the US, the wait times can be absolutely ridiculous. Months. Someone in crisis is told they must wait months just to get a screening. And then they maybe get a few visits. Juveniles in the US are being held in ERs for up to a month while they wait to find a bed. I myself have had to spend several nights in an ER because there was no bed.
At the absolute worst moments of my life, when I could have used kindness, and a hug, I was treated roughly, asked insensitive questions, looked down upon, was required to wear an ugly green gown, open in the back, with no underwear or bra, and left in a glass-walled room with only a stretcher and maybe a blanket. My phone and other belongings were taken away. I watched security guards in their early 20s go through all my stuff. Hold up my bras to the light looking for contraband. I was left in this room alone for hours only watched by a rent-a-cop. I have spent a total of 3 nights in an ER in this green, flapping gown on a gurney with just one blanket, while being continually watched by security and being occasionally seen by a nurse or doctor. No TV. Often I was never given my phone. These 3 nights were all because of insurance reasons (they won't pay for two different levels of service on the same day, so if you come in during the day, they have to wait til after midnight to transfer you, or there wasn't a bed at the in-network hospital etc etc). I have friends who have waited days in the ER with no one to talk to, and one was served all food without any utensils...she was forced to eat mashed potatoes and gravy with her hands. Think of that. Your worst day of your life. You're told go to the ER to get help, and you end up housed there half naked, alone, eating mashed potatoes with your fingers and feeling feral AF, less than human.
From here, if you're placed on a 72-hour hold (which is usually required for psych admittance), they can take you anywhere they want. You have no choice in what hospital you go to. This is a particularly terrifying process for me because there is one hospital in my state that gave me unwarranted ECT treatments that I suspect caused some long-term side effects. I've had very bad experiences at 2 other hospitals and absolutely don't want to return there. Another time I was put in an ambulance for a 3-hour drive to a city more than an hour from where I lived (by the way, that bill was ~$6000, and I had to pay it because most ambulances in my area were classed as "out of network". That was my co-pay).
This is the reality that many people who *have* accessed psych services for suicidality have faced. For people who haven't personally experienced it, they've heard about it. They're terrified of it. Rightly so. For folks in the US who come from gun country or gun families, their firearms are confiscated, so that deters many men in particular from even trying to get help. Imagine you're a young guy, 17 years old. Your whole family hunts and has guns. Your friends have guns. You go out shooting for fun. If you admit to anyone you are having suicidal thoughts those are threatened to be taken away. I am not arguing that people should be able to keep them unchecked, but for many young men this represents a kind of emasculation and a noticable difference between them and their friends. It's viewed as embarrassing, that they can't just "man up", and they're terrified that their dad and brother won't get to keep their guns and go hunting. I don't know the solution for this, but it's just one reason of many why so many people defer trying to get help.
I realized this is quite long-winded, but this is the reason Sanctioned Suicide became a haven for me. And so many other people who have come here, stayed a while, and then moved on have said that this site saved their lives - they had a chance to talk about these issues without automatically triggering a full psych intervention. They got support and found they weren't alone. Others offered ideas about things they could do to improve their situation. I have seen this happen OVER and over again here. And for those claiming that the recovery section here isn't utilized to the same degree as the suicide talk section, what do you expect? If someone is really serious about their recovery, wouldn't most people prefer they get support on a site that doesn't *also* include people talking about suicide methods? I can't imagine if people are also in therapy that their therapists are like, Oh, great, yes, do stay on that site and only interact with these few recovery people and try to ignore anything you see that doesn't support your recovery. No, they're going to tell them to look elsewhere, somewhere that is more geared for supporting recovery. So don't blame this site for that. It shows that if people decide on recovery, they often leave here entirely. Good for them.
In the main suicide discussion section I have seen countless times people who posted they were going to ctb, and by the end of the day they had changed their mind. Some got help. Some found a therapist. Some found a friend they could talk to. Some found they were not alone, and it made them want to tough out another day. Some realized they weren't ready and wanted to do a few other things first. There have also been many threads in the last few years of people who left the site because they were pursuing recovery, and let me tell you, I don't know that I've ever seen a response to that that wasn't 100% supportive. If someone commented in that vein, I know they'd be reported and dealt with. In addition, it may be helpful to know that there has always been a process here allowing members to self-ban. Many users have done this as a deterrent to them logging back in here. A line through their name doesn't automatically mean they completed a suicide but may indicate they were either banned for not following rules, or they left the site.
Ultimately my point is this. If you're concerned about this site - if you have energy you need to put somewhere to save lives, please put that energy to use reforming the systems at work. When there is a suicide you're aware of, or a friend you know is suicidal, resist glibly posting the hotline or telling them to go to the ER. Tell your friends that if they are ever in a bad place, they can come stay with you for the night. Tell them you'll help them find professional help and you won't stop advocating for them until they get real help. If that feels overwhelming, get several other people to help you with it - if you have mutual friends. Ask your friends how they are feeling. If they are depressed, ask them if they ever have suicidal thoughts. Ask them how that's going, and if there's anything you can do to help. Ask them if you can set up a kind of code, something they will say that alerts you to them possibly being in trouble. Sometimes it's hard for those who struggle with chronic suicidality to ask for help and it's hard to just blurt it out.
Has the NYT even considered that fact that they published this in the holiday season, when the most suicides happen? Not only did they publicize this site at a time that no other options really exist for people to get support without setting the whole cop/ER/hospital thing in motion, but they also scared a whole lot of people who came here looking for friendship and support. People are scared they are going to be doxxed like Serge and Marquis. In fact, did the NYT even think about what putting their names out there could do to them and their families? I mean, think about it - it's not like these folks don't know how to make a peaceful exit if the societal hate and pressure they're going to feel for literally the rest of their lives is unbearable. In trying to "raise awareness" it's entirely possible the NYT instead will create more suicides.
The bottom line is this - if you're someone who came to this site to save lost souls, really consider what you're saving us from, and what you might be condemning us to. Are you someone that accepts everyone you meet, that creates a kind and just world for everyone? People with mental illness, people with disabilities, people with autism, lgbtq folks, poc, people who are just different....do you do what you can to make life easier for them? Do you care as much about making the world a better place where we feel like we can live lives that are WORTH living? What are you saving us for? What do you want us to contribute to the world? How will you help us? If you want to save us, save us for something better than what we have now. You have a moral responsibility that goes along with the privilege you have in not being plagued by these traumas and illnesses and suicidal ideation. If you want to moralize and shame people for their humanness, then do the moral thing and really commit to loving the people around you and creating a just and better world. They may be on this site.
What is lacking online is a place for people who are genuinely suffering to be able to be honest about their situation and be able to talk about being suicidal without automatically the cops, the hospital, etc all being involved. In the United States, laypeople don't even understand that depending on insurance (or lack), every time a suicidal person is transported to a hospital, has to go through the ER (which is often its own traumatic and triggering event), then gets transferred in an ambulance to a psych ward (again, incredibly traumatic possibilities depending on the person and the unit), by the time they are done and out they may also owe thousands of dollars in copays which is a surefire way to impede any progress made and send the hopelessness ratcheting up even higher. I was once in a hospital where 2 hours after I was admitted (I hadn't seen any doctor yet), I got a call via the nurse's station. They pulled me out of group to take this call. It was the billing department of the hospital asking how I was going to pay my co-pay bill, that they estimated would be over $500 for 3 days. They asked me to think about if I could borrow money from family or friends, or figure out a credit card, and they said they'd give me a discount if I figured out payment before I was released. This is not a unique story!!
Mental health and regular health people routinely think this is the solution to people expressing suicidal thoughts. They have pushed this idea of "if you're suicidal go to your nearest emergency room." And of course anytime someone important ends their life, everyone trots out the emergency hotline numbers. Of course this is to avoid liability in our society, or for people to alleviate fears of having failed to act, but it has had a detrimental effect on people who deal with chronic suicidality or even acute crises moments. This should honestly be the last thing on the list to promote for people with chronic issues - the ER, the ambulances for otherwise healthy people, the hospitalizations (which now in the US utilize only group--no individual--therapy) that end up being traumatic for many people when they are at their point of greatest need. Of course there are exceptions, such as someone having psychosis, or being violent and they need to get back regulated on meds, etc. Or people who need a safe, stable environment who are having a momentary crisis or moment of impulsivity from an overwhelming situation. Although I don't really know that a psych hospital is the appropriate place for that either but there aren't many other options if there are not family or friends to step in and provide support or shelter.
We have promoted in our society that the only acceptable way for suicidal people to behave is to be suicidal out of sight, or to only deal with the professionals. Regular people think they aren't equipped and it's so much easier to refer people to an ER or a hotline and not have to think about it. Any talk of suicide is now taken more seriously, but we don't have a system in place for people to express those thoughts, where the concern is about the person, instead of soley about personal liability. Regular people are not being empowered to be the friend many of us here need. I would guess that more than 50% of hospitalizations could be avoided if folks had more in real life support, felt genuine care from friends and family, or had other wraparound services.
We've also established this narrative in our society that suicide is a selfish act, that someone who dies of suicide is automatically mentally ill, and that it is an impulsive act that people can and should always be talked out of. It is also said many times that someone who has died by suicide has "wasted their life." We have an extreme preoccupation (especially in the U.S.) with all life being precious and valuable and needing to be lived to the very last labored breath. We prolong the lives of pets and babble on about how they'll let us know when the right time to go is - we don't want to take 1 minute away from their precious life. Many folks in the US feel that all human babies conceived should be born, even if there is no support for these moms or children and we prioritize cutting the services that would make birthing/raising that child manageable. People are shamed for wanting to control the end of their life, and are told they should not play God. Well don't doctors play God all the time? Every time we get a life-sustaining drug or treatment, isn't that playing God? Why are we so obsessed with life at all costs? Is it religious? I am not sure what it is but people are obsessed with it. And often it feels good to be wanting everyone to live, but if you're not actively making this world a welcoming and safe place for all people - even those different from you - then you are part of the problem. You are likely the reason some people are suicidal. Posting a hotline number doesn't change it. I can post another time about what hotline experiences are like.
At the same time, help is harder and harder to find. A safe space to talk about suicidal urges without being automatically doxxed, reported, or referred to an ER or the police is really not available outside of this forum. Many people, and the ones with the majority of severe mental health issues, are not getting good or adequate treatment. Often it is not available or cost prohibitive. Outside the US, the wait times can be absolutely ridiculous. Months. Someone in crisis is told they must wait months just to get a screening. And then they maybe get a few visits. Juveniles in the US are being held in ERs for up to a month while they wait to find a bed. I myself have had to spend several nights in an ER because there was no bed.
At the absolute worst moments of my life, when I could have used kindness, and a hug, I was treated roughly, asked insensitive questions, looked down upon, was required to wear an ugly green gown, open in the back, with no underwear or bra, and left in a glass-walled room with only a stretcher and maybe a blanket. My phone and other belongings were taken away. I watched security guards in their early 20s go through all my stuff. Hold up my bras to the light looking for contraband. I was left in this room alone for hours only watched by a rent-a-cop. I have spent a total of 3 nights in an ER in this green, flapping gown on a gurney with just one blanket, while being continually watched by security and being occasionally seen by a nurse or doctor. No TV. Often I was never given my phone. These 3 nights were all because of insurance reasons (they won't pay for two different levels of service on the same day, so if you come in during the day, they have to wait til after midnight to transfer you, or there wasn't a bed at the in-network hospital etc etc). I have friends who have waited days in the ER with no one to talk to, and one was served all food without any utensils...she was forced to eat mashed potatoes and gravy with her hands. Think of that. Your worst day of your life. You're told go to the ER to get help, and you end up housed there half naked, alone, eating mashed potatoes with your fingers and feeling feral AF, less than human.
From here, if you're placed on a 72-hour hold (which is usually required for psych admittance), they can take you anywhere they want. You have no choice in what hospital you go to. This is a particularly terrifying process for me because there is one hospital in my state that gave me unwarranted ECT treatments that I suspect caused some long-term side effects. I've had very bad experiences at 2 other hospitals and absolutely don't want to return there. Another time I was put in an ambulance for a 3-hour drive to a city more than an hour from where I lived (by the way, that bill was ~$6000, and I had to pay it because most ambulances in my area were classed as "out of network". That was my co-pay).
This is the reality that many people who *have* accessed psych services for suicidality have faced. For people who haven't personally experienced it, they've heard about it. They're terrified of it. Rightly so. For folks in the US who come from gun country or gun families, their firearms are confiscated, so that deters many men in particular from even trying to get help. Imagine you're a young guy, 17 years old. Your whole family hunts and has guns. Your friends have guns. You go out shooting for fun. If you admit to anyone you are having suicidal thoughts those are threatened to be taken away. I am not arguing that people should be able to keep them unchecked, but for many young men this represents a kind of emasculation and a noticable difference between them and their friends. It's viewed as embarrassing, that they can't just "man up", and they're terrified that their dad and brother won't get to keep their guns and go hunting. I don't know the solution for this, but it's just one reason of many why so many people defer trying to get help.
I realized this is quite long-winded, but this is the reason Sanctioned Suicide became a haven for me. And so many other people who have come here, stayed a while, and then moved on have said that this site saved their lives - they had a chance to talk about these issues without automatically triggering a full psych intervention. They got support and found they weren't alone. Others offered ideas about things they could do to improve their situation. I have seen this happen OVER and over again here. And for those claiming that the recovery section here isn't utilized to the same degree as the suicide talk section, what do you expect? If someone is really serious about their recovery, wouldn't most people prefer they get support on a site that doesn't *also* include people talking about suicide methods? I can't imagine if people are also in therapy that their therapists are like, Oh, great, yes, do stay on that site and only interact with these few recovery people and try to ignore anything you see that doesn't support your recovery. No, they're going to tell them to look elsewhere, somewhere that is more geared for supporting recovery. So don't blame this site for that. It shows that if people decide on recovery, they often leave here entirely. Good for them.
In the main suicide discussion section I have seen countless times people who posted they were going to ctb, and by the end of the day they had changed their mind. Some got help. Some found a therapist. Some found a friend they could talk to. Some found they were not alone, and it made them want to tough out another day. Some realized they weren't ready and wanted to do a few other things first. There have also been many threads in the last few years of people who left the site because they were pursuing recovery, and let me tell you, I don't know that I've ever seen a response to that that wasn't 100% supportive. If someone commented in that vein, I know they'd be reported and dealt with. In addition, it may be helpful to know that there has always been a process here allowing members to self-ban. Many users have done this as a deterrent to them logging back in here. A line through their name doesn't automatically mean they completed a suicide but may indicate they were either banned for not following rules, or they left the site.
Ultimately my point is this. If you're concerned about this site - if you have energy you need to put somewhere to save lives, please put that energy to use reforming the systems at work. When there is a suicide you're aware of, or a friend you know is suicidal, resist glibly posting the hotline or telling them to go to the ER. Tell your friends that if they are ever in a bad place, they can come stay with you for the night. Tell them you'll help them find professional help and you won't stop advocating for them until they get real help. If that feels overwhelming, get several other people to help you with it - if you have mutual friends. Ask your friends how they are feeling. If they are depressed, ask them if they ever have suicidal thoughts. Ask them how that's going, and if there's anything you can do to help. Ask them if you can set up a kind of code, something they will say that alerts you to them possibly being in trouble. Sometimes it's hard for those who struggle with chronic suicidality to ask for help and it's hard to just blurt it out.
Has the NYT even considered that fact that they published this in the holiday season, when the most suicides happen? Not only did they publicize this site at a time that no other options really exist for people to get support without setting the whole cop/ER/hospital thing in motion, but they also scared a whole lot of people who came here looking for friendship and support. People are scared they are going to be doxxed like Serge and Marquis. In fact, did the NYT even think about what putting their names out there could do to them and their families? I mean, think about it - it's not like these folks don't know how to make a peaceful exit if the societal hate and pressure they're going to feel for literally the rest of their lives is unbearable. In trying to "raise awareness" it's entirely possible the NYT instead will create more suicides.
The bottom line is this - if you're someone who came to this site to save lost souls, really consider what you're saving us from, and what you might be condemning us to. Are you someone that accepts everyone you meet, that creates a kind and just world for everyone? People with mental illness, people with disabilities, people with autism, lgbtq folks, poc, people who are just different....do you do what you can to make life easier for them? Do you care as much about making the world a better place where we feel like we can live lives that are WORTH living? What are you saving us for? What do you want us to contribute to the world? How will you help us? If you want to save us, save us for something better than what we have now. You have a moral responsibility that goes along with the privilege you have in not being plagued by these traumas and illnesses and suicidal ideation. If you want to moralize and shame people for their humanness, then do the moral thing and really commit to loving the people around you and creating a just and better world. They may be on this site.
