Discussion A Stoic Perspective on Impulse and Courage in CTB

[GoodPersonEffed]

We need to be warned and strengthened in both directions – not to love or to hate life overmuch. Even when reason advises us to make an end of it, the impulse is not to be adopted without reflection or at headlong speed. The brave and wise man should not flee from life but withdraw from it.

- Seneca


I find this quote to be an affirmation of the oft-given advice on this forum to not rush, but instead to research, plan, and reflect, and it's okay to change your mind and to wait.

I also find it helps me to shift my perspective when I am afraid. Ctb is the most rational choice for me, but my fear rises up when I am in fleeing mode, not only from circumstances but, especially, from the act of dying. The idea of a withdrawal from life is empowering and calming to me. This now guides me and will likely be one of my last thoughts.

 

[BFishy]

My last, I guess attempt I was totally at peace. I was actually matter of factly and not emotional at all. I think in my warped messed up mind and dead soul I am ready and willing at anytime.

 

[ctbUniquectb]

I've caught some flak for saying this, but I'm of the opinion that a person should be Zen/ at peace to catch the bus. I'm totally decided that the time is upon me. I closed the books logistically and crossed the bridge mentally in May 2019. An unrelated emergency surgery interrupted me. I've been polishing off some recent, final logistics tasks for a few weeks.

I'm also of the opinion that people should live their entire 20s to see if things turn around. I regret having done so, but my life circumstances were extreme enough that a positive change was unlikely.

 

[BFishy]

I've caught some flak for saying this, but I'm of the opinion that a person should be Zen/ at peace to catch the bus. I'm totally decided that the time is upon me. I closed the books logistically and crossed the bridge mentally in May 2019. An unrelated emergency surgery interrupted me. I've been polishing off some recent, final logistics tasks for a few weeks.

I'm also of the opinion that people should live their entire 20s to see if things turn around. I regret having done so, but my life circumstances were extreme enough that a positive change was unlikely.

I seem to agree with you. When I had a partner to ctb with, we also had that discussion. I think it should be a rational and logical choice and not an emotional one. I am 43 now but have felt the urge and pain to do it increasingly since my later teens.

 

[ctbUniquectb]

your post

Yeah, I've wanted out since single digit age. It's getting worse. I don't begrudge anyone who goes, but it is tragic for youths to die without ever having sought treatment

 

[BFishy]

I wholeheartedly agree. Be at a mentally mature state before making that decision and after getting or giving treatment a chance.

 

[Melkus2020]

Stoics that's what we need to be.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@BFishy
@ctbUniquectb

Treatment may not even be the solution, just life experience. I've often said the 20s are the adolescence of adulthood. There is still awkwardness and so much to learn. The brain isn't even fully formed until 24-26, especially in cognitive and risk-taking areas.

People who are more emotionally grounded later in life, from middle age to later years, are ones who have had losses and suffered, but have been forged by their experiences. They have learned what is survivable, they've learned patience, they've learned what is truly of value. And yes, some of them had therapy or other forms of support. Support is key in life, whether it's a friend, a therapist, a group, or a faith-based or secular community.

I've had some great experiences and deep inner healing I wouldn't have had if I'd ctb'd earlier, but I can't say that's universally applicable, either. One can only know themselves and when they've reached the limits of their inner resources, and maybe external resources, too.

 

[BFishy]

I have read many of your posts or replies GoodpersonEffed. You seem to have a great insight and wisdom. Thankyou for all that you contribute to us all.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I have read many of your posts or replies GoodpersonEffed. You seem to have a great insight and wisdom. Thankyou for all that you contribute to us all.

*blush* (No, really. Me and the tablet glowing in an otherwise dark room.)

Thank you! back.

 

[Dead beat dad]

I seem to agree with you. When I had a partner to ctb with, we also had that discussion. I think it should be a rational and logical choice and not an emotional one. I am 43 now but have felt the urge and pain to do it increasingly since my later teens.

Brother I feel this deeply and can relate

 

[Iloveyouall]

The brave and wise man should not flee from life but withdraw from it.

I don't know why but when I read this quote I hear this song:

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I don't know why but when I read this quote I hear this song:

Haha! The title and the image remind me of the Stoic analogy of life being a drinking-party, and there are five reasons to leave. One doesn't flee the party, or any of the reasons for leaving it, one simply exits.

In other words,

"Fuck this shit. I'm out."

 

[Iloveyouall]

the Stoic analogy of life being a drinking-party, and there are five reasons to leave.

What are the 4 other reasons ?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

What are the 4 other reasons ?

Shit. You would have to ask. I wonder as well, now I'm going to go looking. You can too if you want :) One is the arrival of tyrants who are going to take over the party and abuse the party-goers.

Edit: you asked what are the other four. I hadn't yet mentioned one, so are you aware of another?

 

[ctbUniquectb]

posts on party exits

This parallel circles back to the eternal question of leaving a note/ goodbye thread, or to do an "Irish Exit."

 

[Iloveyouall]

Shit. You would have to ask.

xD sorry bro

you asked what are the other four. I hadn't yet mentioned one, so are you aware of another?

I thought the one who doesn't flee was one of the five in a way.

1) because a pressing matter suddenly turns up–for instance, a friend appears after a long absence, and you and the friend get up in delight to walk out and the party is broken up. Or 2), because revelers rush in, shouting obscenities; the party is likewise broken up. Or 3) because the meats served are spoiled, or 4) because the provisions have run out, or 5) because of drunken stupor, a party is broken up.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

What are the 4 other reasons ?

Here are the Stoic's rational reasons for leaving the party (suicide):

1. In service of one's country, i.e., an old friend shows up to the party and requires your services.

2. The arrival of rowdy revelers, i.e., tyrants who force us to say or do disgraceful things at the party.

3. Protracted illness that prevents the soul from the use of its tool, the body, i.e., spoilage of provisions for the party.

4. Poverty, i.e., scarceness of party provisions.

5. Madness, i.e., drunkenness at the party. In Buddhist terms, intoxicants lower one's inhibitions against doing no harm to others and, by default, the self, or in Stoic terms, lowering the inhibitions of practicing virtue. It would be a dangerous party for the wise and virtuous one who practiced moderation.

Source: Griffin, Miriam. "Philosophy, Cato, and Roman Suicide I," Greece and Rome, vol. 33, no. 1, 1986, pp. 64-77. Original source cited by Griffin, Stoicorum Veterum Fragmenta, a 1903-1905 collection by Hans von Arnim of fragments and testimony of the earlier Stoics.

This article and article II are available for free online viewing at JSTOR.

Edit: @Iloveyouall, yeah, what you said there while I was using my mad research and tablet-typing skills.

 

[GinaIsReady]

I have read many of your posts or replies GoodpersonEffed. You seem to have a great insight and wisdom. Thankyou for all that you contribute to us all.

I agree, thank you, GoodpersonEffed.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

This parallel circles back to the eternal question of leaving a note/ goodbye thread, or to do an "Irish Exit."

The link doesn't work on where you quoted me. I'm a little confused. I don't remember saying exactly that.

Also, what's an Irish Exit?

:)

 

[Iloveyouall]

Madness, i.e., drunkenness at the party.

What's the point of a party if you don't get drunk ? xP
I'm not the kind of person who harm others when I'm drunk tho, I usually harm myself by running into a table or fall flat on my face.

 

[Montmorency_1]

I can relate to this a lot. I feel like it's as if you're treading water, and sometimes you start to struggle. But it is reassuring to know you always have a way out. I always feel so uplifted when I know i have something close by that I can sue at any time to escape. It's freeing and empowering.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I can relate to this a lot. I feel like it's as if you're treading water, and sometimes you start to struggle. But it is reassuring to know you always have a way out. I always feel so uplifted when I know i have something close by that I can sue at any time to escape. It's freeing and empowering.

Yeah, Seneca found it empowering and comforting that death is always an option. He said life was kind in that it gave only one way in but offered many ways out.

But you also reminded me of Montaigne, he's good company to me, father of the personal essay, my favorite form of writing:

Here are the words of the law on this subject: If chance delivers some great misfortune that you cannot remedy, a haven is always nearby. You can swim away from your body as you would from a leaking boat.

 

[ctbUniquectb]

The link doesn't work on where you quoted me. I'm a little confused.

I modified the quote link to imply in general

I don't remember saying exactly that.

It was a mashup of several concepts.

Also, what's an Irish Exit?

leaving without saying goodbye

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

leaving without saying goodbye

Well, the Stoics would also consider their responsibility to their loved ones and to society.

If those who are at the party include such people, and if there was enough time to safely say goodbye before leaving the party, I think they would leave a note saying that they cared, they appreciated all the others had done for them, and this is why they had to leave. But if those folks are also the tyrants or are mad (i.e., do not possess reason), no explanation is required.

My parents are not tyrants that give me rational cause to leave the party, but their personal madness means they can't hear me when I speak reason. So, I left them a letter here on SS, because only if they go searching for knowledge will there be the slightest chance they can perceive it when they find it.

 

[ctbUniquectb]

Well, the Stoics would also consider their responsibility to their loved ones and to society.

My boat is leaking from physical and mental disability. I've had great misfortune I cannot remedy and from which I plan to swim away: punishment for a crime that didn't occur.

However, I think of the attached image, because there are so few truly bad people, and so many people have consistently had my back for so long.

Spoiler

 

[Epsilon0]

Here are the words of the law on this subject: If chance delivers some great misfortune that you cannot remedy, a haven is always nearby. You can swim away from your body as you would from a leaking boat.

Beautiful!

Source: Griffin, Miriam. "Philosophy, Cato, and Roman Suicide I," Greece and Rome, vol. 33, no. 1, 1986, pp. 64-77. Original source cited by Griffin, Stoicorum Veterum Fragmenta, a 1903-1905 collection by Hans von Arnim of fragments and testimony of the earlier Stoics.

This article and article II are available for free online viewing at JSTOR.

Edit: @Iloveyouall, yeah, what you said there while I was using my mad research and tablet-typing skills.

@GoodPersonEffed

Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I enjoyed them immensely. Also, I find your bibliographical entry sexy as hell

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@GoodPersonEffed

Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I enjoyed them immensely. Also, I find your bibliographical entry sexy as hell

OMG I got such a belly laugh out of that!

When I did the research on JSTOR and wrote the citation, I thought, "Never thought I'd be using these skills again after grad school."

 

[Epsilon0]

OMG I got such a belly laugh out of that!

When I did the research on JSTOR and wrote the citation, I thought, "Never thought I'd be using these skills again after grad school."

Have a nice day, Good! I am glad I put a smile on your face. You did too, you know.

 

[ctbUniquectb]

Also, I find your bibliographical entry sexy as hell

When I did the research on JSTOR and wrote the citation, I thought, "Never thought I'd be using these skills again after grad school."

This is why I do half-assed inlines with any biblical references. I must get some use out of the only "skill" I picked up in school.

Spoiler