Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,240
Being ridiculed by the mainstream for having an exceptional but quite rightly concern cause it isn't theirs and they possess the truth aka premium end-of-life option N (moreover having it myself) smells to me like an all-destroying merciless group dynamic which I won't accept whether that means being expelled from the herd or not.

None of this is occurring within this thread. N is one of a fair few methods discussed, like all methods it has its merits, its disadvantages, and with that it also has its advocates and its naysayers. This thread is specifically asking users for their ideas of brand new methods which cause zero pain and cause instant death. N is reported to be the nearest to that, it's natural that this will be propelled above, say, wrist-slitting.

Nobody is ridiculed for being sceptical of N as a method, but it's fair to expect some ridicule if you think N is dreadful but a hitman is a perfectly sound ctb method. Mainstream methods are mainstream for a reason.
 
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About_to_Go

About_to_Go

It deepens like a coastal shelf
Mar 20, 2018
303
I'm not saying firearms are the answer either, but closer to a fast death. It's my backup.

Something that would instantly get to the brain, and kill us faster than neurons can signal is ideal. Shotguns leave residue, etc.

Suicide victims many times have a shock and grimace pain on their face.
There are inert gases.
fucking pro-life hitmen. what is the world coming to?
I think it's more like they'd think you're law enforcement. This method isn't viable due to accessibility anyway.
 
G

GeorgeEastman

Arcanist
Sep 3, 2018
470
There's no 100% anything. That's why life sucks in the first place. Nothing can be counted on or trusted. It's all a sloppy pile of unpredictable garbage.

Well, it is 100% that death will occur. But 90 some percent chances are it won't be instant and painless.
 
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S

SirChuxAlot

Member
Jan 16, 2019
63
In reality, I obviously can't prove it but I doubt you would notice any pain from the gunshot wound to the head before you died. I was reading that our pain recepters are weak in the skull area, not too mention the sudden shock.
A good example is, I sliced my hand wide open with a huge razer blade (work accident, 17 stitches inside and 16 outside, came REALLY close to tendons), to be straight forward, I do not even recall ANY pain.. just worryness I needed stitches since my employer at the same offered no insurance. I did experience some minor pain way later that night but nothing bad just more like someone was poking you hard.

I did manage to near choke myself once with a hose, also very painless. I rather not discuss what happened, to be honest, was a failed attempt anyways thanks to survival instinct.
I will be honest with you all, that was the BEST and most peaceful 5 minutes of my life. I felt... nothing but in a way I felt all my negative thoughts just slip away.

I hope you all don't think me insane.

Edit: I meant to add, I am more resilient to pain then others I know, so that might play a role in why I feel little physical pain.
 
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JoshuaCohen135

Member
Feb 16, 2019
35
where do you even find them , I never in my life found a suicide video. Well, I'm not too keen either..

Death addict
Reddit (watch people die)
Ogrishforum (if still around)

If you're suicidal on this site, and you haven't seen death yet, you should "seriously" hold off your plans until you see what you're in for. Better if you can see aftermath pics as those generally capture better spur of the moment caught on camera moments.

My intro to this was my first after attempt 2 decades ago. Morbid curiosoty. Chechclear was my first video.

Since then I've witnessed 2 deaths in-person. Also been (un)fortunate enough to be admitted to neuro floor in hopsital and have seen a lot of hospital horrors. Saved my hospital roommate, a man who was trapped in his own body, and choking on his own saliva by grabbing the nurse..though he may wanted to die and screwed it up for him

Same with nursing/rehab home.

Death and illness is PURE ugly.
 
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SirChuxAlot

Member
Jan 16, 2019
63
Death addict
Reddit (watch people die)
Ogrishforum (if still around)

If you're suicidal on this site, and you haven't seen death yet, you should "seriously" hold off your plans until you see what you're in for. Better if you can see aftermath pics as those generally capture better spur of the moment caught on camera moments.

My intro to this was my first attempt 2 decades ago. Chechclear was my first video.

Since then I've witnessed 2 deaths in-person. Also been (un)fortunate enough to be admitted to neuro hopsital and have seen a lot of hospital horrors. Same with nursing/rehab home.

Death and illness is PURE ugly.

Sorry for all the bullshit they put you through, Joshua. I don't like hospitals period.

where do you even find them , I never in my life found a suicide video. Well, I'm not too keen either..
I agree with the sources Joshua has provided. I have seen my fair share on those and more "underground" sites, enough that I can't stomach them anymore, mostly the videos of murder and torture.
 
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I

Idorus

Arcanist
Apr 30, 2018
426
Death and illness is PURE ugly.

Sherwin B. Nuland wrote a book about it: "How we Die". He has little patience with the idea of dignified or easeful deaths, and his accounts, while never gratuitous, spare you little. Here is the kind of detailed analysis of death normally found only in medical journals. He makes the point that death these days is a 'hidden secret', packaged, cleansed and removed from sight. He presents death 'in its biological and clinical reality'. Some of its harshest words are for Derek Humphry, founder of the Hemlock Society, and for his 'ill-advised cookbook', Final Exit. There is a chapter about suicide/euthanasia.
 
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I

Idorus

Arcanist
Apr 30, 2018
426
I might have gotten the more elaborated version of how my mom was dying. In the thread ¨What do you think it will "feel" like as you die?¨

Ur body would cool down and ur blood would turn cold i think

Happened to my mom.... some hours before she died icecold feet and we even made a hot water bottle with some extra blankets (cant´t remember if she asked herself). While my sis & I were downstairs having a deep distracting convo after that for some hours...... mom was passing. I didn´t like the way she was lying there with her finger in her mouth that was pretty wide open when we found her. As if she´d grasped for air in her last moments when the cold was crawling up from toe to top. Dying is ugly. Enough to say for ´FIRMLY´ taking your own life therefore.
My sis didn´t see the ugliness I saw. Hard to get that.

I've had a near death experience when I was in the hospital with sepsis that fell through the cracks. It was terrifying. I felt freezing cold and exhausted, to the point where I couldn't lift my hand to press the call button for a nurse. It was difficult to breathe and I felt like something was very wrong, but I didn't know what it was. My breathing became more labored and my body would shudder, for lack of a better word, with every breath. My body hurt. It was like every cell in my body was screaming. That's when I had the realization I was dying and I became terrified. I couldn't talk, couldn't move, and I had no monitors on me because the doctors didn't know I became septic, so no help was coming. I was no longer cold. It now felt like I was burning up. I tried to will myself to stop breathing, figuring mind over matter would work. It didn't, my body's survival instinct was in full force. By this point, I couldn't move or focus my eyes and was praying for release.
Suddenly, I felt an overwhelming sense of peace. It lasted briefly before I lost my sight. Then I rocketed through what looked like a flesh colored pipe with cracks in it made of pure light. There were many sharp turns that I went through at an impossible speed, it seemed like I was going in multiple directions while staying on the same course? I don't really know how to articulate it. Suddenly, everything was bright light, then darkness. I woke up in the ICU connected to all sorts of tubes and monitors. I always thought the peace and tunnel were my brain giving up and releasing DMT in a last ditch effort. I was so angry I didn't die.
That's why I plan to ctb with N even though SN is cheaper and easier to get. There's no way I'm going through that experience again.

That´s how ugly dying is. That´s why I rightly prefer a fucking bullet through my head, at the least.
 
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FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
Firearms with sufficient caliber and proper placement would be instant (if not, very, very close). The objective is to hit the brainstem and destroy the vast majority of the brain that is responsible for controlling heart beat and breathing. Even if death isn't immediate or instantaneous, one will still die from blood loss, shock and trauma from the injury while being unconscious.


This was my method of choice for the longest while...
 
FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
N is the gold standard and still legitimately available to purchase from A.


I used to be intent on N until I kept reading reports of how extremely bitter it is. I just can't wrap my head around the last sensations of my life being (more) unpleasantness.
 
FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
The closest is firearm shotgun I agree. However, you still would have to "not breath" and have blood loss which is not painless.

So there's a few variables to this checklist to be painless: Thoughts?

Can you share any links to some of the videos? (Thanks...)
 
FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
I wanted to see chocolate lady through to the end; for some assurance/ comfort call it whatever.
Yes I'd take the coughing fit over most other horrific options.
Still I was in hope it really could be a lovely little snooze off into the end but have not seen one such video at all.
I don't enjoy watching this stuff in any shape or form. I just want some comfort. I suffer perpetual pain and horror non stop from my physical rubbish and I have zero tolerance for any more suffering


Perfect!
 
L

lifeisbutadream

Warlock
Oct 4, 2018
722
I used to be intent on N until I kept reading reports of how extremely bitter it is. I just can't wrap my head around the last sensations of my life being (more) unpleasantness.


The powder just tasted like crushed aspirin to me when i tested it. That was a comparitively small amount though, and i actually do like bitter flavors, but it was nothing like the horror some people were describing. The worst thing about it was the smell. Some say you should hold your nose.

Avoiding last sensations that are unpleasant isn't easy. They say heroin might be euphoric and nitrogen peaceful, but even so, overcoming your earthly body's will to live and actually doing it is pretty hard i think.
 
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FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
They say heroin might be euphoric and nitrogen peaceful, but even so, overcoming your earthly body's will to live and actually doing it is pretty hard i think.

I've read the best reports (and seen video footage) about nitrogen but the setup is for me a deterrent. I wouldn't trust myself with street drugs (like heroin)--too sensitive. I thought I'd settled on sodium nitrite, but since lurking in this room may have returned to my standby, a high powered short shotgun in the mouth. I hate bitter tastes and don't want my last moment to be a mouth full of aspirin. The search for "instant and painless" continues...
 
C

Cookiedough8956

Wowzers
Feb 24, 2019
636
I've read the best reports (and seen video footage) about nitrogen but the setup is for me a deterrent. I wouldn't trust myself with street drugs (like heroin)--too sensitive. I thought I'd settled on sodium nitrite, but since lurking in this room may have returned to my standby, a high powered short shotgun in the mouth. I hate bitter tastes and don't want my last moment to be a mouth full of aspirin. The search for "instant and painless" continues...

Don't think there is anything ideal out there anymore for 100% instant and painless. Think its just chance, if you happen to go instant and pain free- you got lucky. Some else can do the same thing and they might be in a world of pain.
 
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FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
Don't think there is anything ideal out there anymore for 100% instant and painless. Think its just chance, if you happen to go instant and pain free- you got lucky. Some else can do the same thing and they might be in a world of pain.


I think it's a technical problem to be solved. Many technological solutions seem improbable until technicians work them out. Putting aside my wants, I'm confident a painless death can be worked out for the masses who want it...
 
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Its911

Its911

Sociopath
Feb 28, 2019
310
Well unfortunately most deaths involve pain unless your head spontaneously explodes, there's an idea! A dozen fireworks strapped to your head should be able to do that.
Good luck timing them all perfectly, you might just start flying across the environment your in, changing in direction everytime a new firework sets off. Although this would be funny/interesting to see.

Method: Death by Sparklers
 
L

lifeisbutadream

Warlock
Oct 4, 2018
722
Shotgun is certainl
I've read the best reports (and seen video footage) about nitrogen but the setup is for me a deterrent. I wouldn't trust myself with street drugs (like heroin)--too sensitive. I thought I'd settled on sodium nitrite, but since lurking in this room may have returned to my standby, a high powered short shotgun in the mouth. I hate bitter tastes and don't want my last moment to be a mouth full of aspirin. The search for "instant and painless" continues...



A shotgun is a proven method for sure. I believe the famous author Ernest Hemingway used a double barrel shotgun.
 
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I

Idorus

Arcanist
Apr 30, 2018
426
@JoshuaCohen135 might be so right with his instant death. I just discovered that taking N doesn't always mean ending up in a coma. HUH?

There's a current discussion in my country about what is preferred after a request for euthanasia: the oral method (drinking N) or the injectable way out. Currently it's less than 1 out of 20 choosing the oral method, though there is a clear tendency to raise this number of oral ingestion.

The guidelines of 2012 state that the oral method is not preferred due to unpredictabilities i.c. not ending up in a coma or too late. N-N-N-nottt?

Here a recent article "Preference for assisted suicide - drinking N" from a dutch doc magazine (not publicly available) in which the above becomes clear with one sentence. You have to translate it yourself if you wanna read.
 

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A

Arak

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2018
1,176
@Idorus ,

I am not sure that interp[retation is corect. Not dying AND not entering the coma stage ?
 
I

Idorus

Arcanist
Apr 30, 2018
426
@Idorus ,

I am not sure that interp[retation is corect. Not dying AND not entering the coma stage ?

Ow no, I didn't mean to link those 2 as as an inseparable unit. Dying would be sure I assume. It's only the way HOW we might die ... the level of unconsciousnes might not be deep enough to peacefully leave life. No guarantee for that which even docs can't give.
 
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FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
Ow no, I didn't mean to link those 2 as as an inseparable unit. Dying would be sure I assume. It's only the way HOW we might die ... the level of unconsciousnes might not be deep enough to peacefully leave life. No guarantee for that which even docs can't give.


Exactly what I'm afraid of... Thanks for sharing.
 
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A

Arak

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2018
1,176
@Idorus ,

Maybe not quite suitable for this thread ...but I was just checking something.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Suicide/Toxification/Pentobarbital

'Dr. Nitschke in his The Peaceful Pill Handbook states, "Administration is a matter of dissolving ~10 gm of the powder in ~50 ml of water and drinking. . . . . If the powder is analyzed to be pure, and if ingested in the recommended amounts, Chinese Nembutal powder will (not might) lead to a reliable and peaceful death. . . . . The minimum lethal dose is 6 gms. If the substance is pure, a purchase of 25 gm of 95% pure soldium pentobarbital is more than enough for two adults."

'The research committee of Dr. Admiraal, belonging to a Dutch euthanasia group, deemed that nobody has ever woken up after ingestion of 6 grams of a barbiturate if not tolerant to the drug, provided no vomiting occurred.' (factually not correct, see case reports)

'In the book Departing Drugs by Chris Docker and Cheryl Smith, it is suggested on page 64 that 3.5 grams are the lethal dose of secobarbital. Dr. Admiraal deems that 3.5 grams can not be considered as sufficient to be reliably lethal, but that 6 grams would definitely be the sufficient amount.'

'However, experts in human anaesthesia have pointed out that pentobarbital, while an anaesthetic, is not a full analgesic. As such, coadministration of an appropriate analgesic may be advisable to completely eliminate risk of perceived pain, although reports of adverse events have been sparse. Suggestions for analgesics seem unclear at this time, perhaps a low-moderate dose opioid could be an option. The US Death with Dignity homepage mentions a mix of phenobarbital, choral hydrate, morphine sulfate and ethanol as a less expensive option to secobarbital. These additions are possibly due to phenobarbital being slower acting. In veterinary euthanasia, a two step approach is favoured, whereby a sedative such as propofol is given prior to an IV pentobarbital dose. Oral administration is recommended only as a fallback. This method may differ slightly in effect from oral human consumption in that death occurs almost immediately, and perhaps by cardiac effects rather than respiratory depression. In the recorded events of adverse events where IV pentobarbital was used for capital punishment, the likely cause was contaminated pentobarbital from a compounding pharmacy, something which should pose a small risk when taken orally. The fact that capital punishment experts have pointed out possible weaknesses in a pentobarbital-only ingestion warrants further investigation. Reports from Dignitas, which rely on Nembutal only, are encouraging however. '

Cardiac effects or respiratory depression ... I think I would prefer the former. As long as you're unconscious.
 
I

Idorus

Arcanist
Apr 30, 2018
426
The fact that capital punishment experts have pointed out possible weaknesses in a pentobarbital-only ingestion warrants further investigation.

Theeerrre we have another old huge N worry of mine. Why do we find those straight torturing Pento words only on capital punishment sites.
Was just reading (again) that "death row inmates may face 'torturous' end with animal-killing drug" article from your wiki link.
Why are both worlds (ass/suicide & inmates) kept so painstakingly separated? Even the wiki link breathes a soothing layer with 'possible weaknesses'.
 
FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
I'm just tired of the exhaustive effort required just to get out of here. THIS is why a sawed-off shotgun has always seemed so good to me, one that blows the entire top of the head off.
 
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Idorus

Arcanist
Apr 30, 2018
426
I'm just tired of the exhaustive effort required just to get out of here. THIS is why a sawed-off shotgun has always seemed so good to me, one that blows the entire top of the head off.

I so get that. You are right.
 
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Idorus

Arcanist
Apr 30, 2018
426
Sherwin B. Nuland wrote a book about it: "How we Die". He has little patience with the idea of dignified or easeful deaths, and his accounts, while never gratuitous, spare you little. Here is the kind of detailed analysis of death normally found only in medical journals. He makes the point that death these days is a 'hidden secret', packaged, cleansed and removed from sight. He presents death 'in its biological and clinical reality'. Some of its harshest words are for Derek Humphry, founder of the Hemlock Society, and for his 'ill-advised cookbook', Final Exit. There is a chapter about suicide/euthanasia.


This is frigtening to the core.....

Physician-Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia in Practice
Sherwin B. Nuland, M.D.

Many readers of the Journal who closely follow the national debate over euthanasia and assisted suicide may find themselves wondering why there has been so little discussion of the actual clinical outcomes of attempts to help patients end lives of intractable anguish. No matter how useful the guidance of tradition, the tenets of religion, the codes of ethicists and professional societies, or even the laws of the state, the critical ingredient of examined experience is all but missing from the debate. In this issue of the Journal, Groenewoud and colleagues describe the Dutch experience with clinical problems in euthanasia and assisted suicide.1 Their report helps fill the huge gap in our knowledge. But it is only a beginning — and necessarily an imprecise one at that.

Surveys of physicians' experiences are prone to inaccuracy. Moreover, in this particular group, the possibility of error in the form of underreporting was compounded by the fact that approximately 10 percent of the potential respondents refused to take part in the study. Why? When outcomes are being carefully overseen by government and professional authorities, it seems likely that the physicians whose patients experienced the worst complications would be most reluctant to answer questions about untoward events.

But even with the data reported by willing participants, the incidence of complications was noteworthy in cases in which physicians provided assistance with suicide or performed euthanasia. This is information that will come as a shock to the many members of the public — including legislators and even some physicians — who have never considered that the procedures involved in physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia might sometimes add to the suffering they are meant to alleviate and might also preclude the tranquil death being sought. Not only are patients hurt by such untoward events as those described by Groenewoud and colleagues, but so are the family members who witness or hear of them.

In view of what the Dutch authors describe, it is of interest that neither the report on the first year of experience with legalized physician-assisted suicide in Oregon2 nor the two other reports on the subject in this issue of the Journal (the report by Sullivan et al. on the second year of experience in Oregon3 and that by Ganzini et al. on physicians' experiences4) note any complications. In one of the few American reports on the subject, Emanuel and colleagues5 state that 15 percent of attempts at physician-assisted suicide were unsuccessful, as determined by telephone interviews with the participating oncologists. The investigators did not inquire about complications. According to another American report,6 none of 204 attempts at physician-assisted suicide in the state of Washington failed. In this study as well, no questions were asked about complications.

The Dutch report therefore introduces a new element into the calculus of our national debate, one that should have made its appearance long ago: patients who wish to receive help in dying face a small but nevertheless worrisome possibility that some untoward event will prevent the smooth accomplishment of their wish. Not surprisingly, Groenewoud et al. report that complications were more likely with physician-assisted suicide than with euthanasia. Moreover, in 21 of 114 cases in which the original intention was to provide assistance with suicide, the attending physician found it necessary to intervene by administering a lethal drug, usually because things were not going as they should have.

Opponents of physician-assisted suicide will look at these complications as evidence to support their viewpoint, and they are justified in doing so. But those who believe that in certain, carefully controlled situations, providing assistance with suicide is an ethical responsibility should see the findings in an entirely different light. Doctors are unprepared to end life. If this is a burden to be taken on and if the medical profession accepts it as falling within the realm of individual conscience, then thorough training in techniques must be made available. Until only a few years ago, most of us were dreadfully inadequate at providing palliative care for our patients, because little attention was paid to such matters in our daily work. The situation is greatly improved today, but only because of public demand. We are now hearing, if not a clear demand, a strong sentiment in favor of medical assistance in dying. It is only a matter of time before organized medicine recognizes the pragmatic necessity to support physicians who feel they have a moral obligation to provide such assistance. They should do so with the attention to detail that all aspects of medical practice demand. Better sooner than later.

There is no certain way to explain the relative absence of complications reported in the sparse American literature on physician-assisted suicide. But I doubt that such findings will hold up in the long term. Perhaps larger numbers of cases will change them, and increasing acceptance on the part of physicians may result in a greater willingness to report untoward events. Is it really possible that debilitated, terminally ill people, in physical and mental anguish, will unfailingly succeed in attempts to end their lives without medical help? Can
any experienced witness to dying believe such a thing?

The Dutch findings seem more credible. In evaluating them, we should not neglect one obvious lesson. The report by Groenewoud et al. provides ample reason why the Royal Dutch Medical Association has been wise in its recommendation that a physician be in attendance when lethal measures are instituted. If the prevention and relief of suffering are the aims of medical interventions — and not only the preservation or prolongation of life — it seems imperative to rethink our profession's reluctance to participate in euthanasia or even be present during an assisted suicide without legal guarantees of protection.

Many opponents of these practices point to the Hippocratic Oath and its prohibition on hastening death. But those who turn to the oath in an effort to shape or legitimize their ethical viewpoints must realize that the statement has been embraced over approximately the past 200 years far more as a symbol of professional cohesion than for its content.7 Its pithy sentences cannot be used as all-encompassing maxims to avoid the personal responsibility inherent in the practice of medicine. Ultimately, a physician's conduct at the bedside is a matter of individual conscience. The wisdom of past years and moments enters into the deliberation, but decision making in the present bears a burden that is unique to the particular transaction between the doctor and the individual patient who has come for help. To seek refuge in ancient aphorisms is to turn away from the unique needs of each of our patients who have entrusted themselves to our care.

Physicians who believe that it is a person's right to choose death when suffering cannot otherwise be relieved must turn to their consciences in deciding whether to provide help in such a situation. Once the decision to intervene has been made, the goal should be to ensure that death is as merciful and serene as possible.
 
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GeorgeJL

GeorgeJL

Enlightened
Mar 7, 2019
1,621
Guys,

I'll be straightforward. I'm currently suffering from severe vertigo and other systematic pain that may not go away from an illness. In fact this may get worse, it has robbed me 8 months ago when I was at the prime of my life.

I want a proper 100% painless death method as my plan B should the situation escalate.

I've witnessed deaths in the hospital during my admission, and have seen videos of "exits" like hanging or suicide by certain pills by dignitas, etc. All methods of painless deaths seem to be painful regardless. Leaving a corpse with mouth wide open probably with air hunger.

I've watched videos of suicide by gunshot, and while fast always leaves victims looking shocked with their final exit.

I'm 100% convinced that the only option for painless death is something instant. Like an off switch.

Being:

1) unconscious

Then

2) Instant disintegration of the brain

Only things I can find are unachievable things like being right at the center if a nuclear bomb, or vaporization requiring crazy amounts of energy.

If anybody has an idea on how to achieve this, I'd gladly like to know and explore such options. For anyone here who'd like to brainstorm an actual painless exit I'm open to suggestions. There's enough people here to think about this.

I'm not convinced pills, guns, hanging, airbags are painless based on aftermath videos/pics.
Nitrogen/helium hood is fast and usually pretty painless. Or carbon monoxide but CM can be tricky to get right.
Closest thing is explosives or a train.
Hell no. Nembutal is king. Nembutal is used by swiss euthanasia group dignatis.
 
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I

Idorus

Arcanist
Apr 30, 2018
426
I wish I read this all before my greedy N purchase but well, better late than never!

Here the research of Groenewoud & colleagues referred to in the article above from Nuland (see my last post).

I will already grace you with the most important table of problems and complications during 'assisted suicide (drinking N)' and 'euthanasia (injection)' but for the rest, read it yourself and draw your own conclusion. Here the link to the article: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200002243420805

8699
 
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