100% Instant Painless Death?

[Jupiter]

But does it matter?

Yes, there's a huge difference between 10% and 100%. At least in my opinion.

And you say it yourself:

We might only guess now about the nr. of barbiturate takers not ending up in a coma (or too late) while it happened in 14 out of 114 cases. I assume there would have been at least some specification about which substance might have triggered a bad outcome but nope nor read about it anywhere.

I agree, they should have been more specific. But it literally says: "Time to death was longer than expected or patient did not become comatose." So what time frame did they expect in which the patient is supposed to die? 30 minutes, an hour, four hours? It's not mentioned anywhere. So we can't conclude these 14 patients had "a bad outcome", as you describe it. It would have been more specific to state for example: "We expected the patients who took barbiturates to die within 30 Minutes, 14 of them did not or didn't fall unconscious at all." Only then we could have reason to debate N how it was done in this thread. But as far as I can see it's all just speculation.
And therefore I'm not ok with you claiming:

N might be one of the most horrible methods available, but most will disagree.

 

[Arak]

@Idorus ,

I think you have absolutely no chance of finding a hitman to finish you off. You could always save soem sodium azide in case things would get really bad.
Those Dutch stats indicate that the doc takes action (sometimes?) if the patient hasn't died with 2 hours. It doesn't mean they wouldn't die otherwise.

While I have some personal reservations, and it's quite possible there may be some suffering in some cases in general it's one of the best methods.
Inert gas hypoxia without a messy exit bag might even be better,. But I wouldn't bet on the Sarco, Nitschke's futuristic latest gimmick.

To each his own.
@Jupiter ,

A bit depending on the source, the duration of action of the pentobarbital is 1-2 hours. So one should die within that timeframe. Else, it could get messy. The extended comatose phase, who knows what happens then ? Two physical issues: damage done during the first two hours, and the pentobarbital that has been redistributed to mostly fatty tissues being released into the bloodstream again and doing its thing.

 

[Chinaski]

It's fair to say we're well aware of ldorus' position on N but this barrage of intentionally misleading information suggests a deeper need to dissuade others from choosing N as a method and the propelling of darknet hitmen and the Sarco machine as viable alternatives is absolutely absurd. If N isn't your method of choice that's absolutely fine, but deliberately putting out false scare stories such as the shit posted above is especially absurd when you consider that N is pedestalised above other methods not by paid shills on this website but by the actual PPH and practically every RTD org that exists.

 

[Johnnythefox]

intentionally misleading information suggests a deeper need to dissuade others

We seem to be seeing a lot of this recently regarding methods in the PPeH, SN I think has taken a battering recently, now it seems to be N's turn. I would agree that there seems to be a deeper need at play here. I just checked out the hitman stuff and imo a video of a burning car is not conclusive evidence.
However these two stories are worth checking out.

Ainsley Harriot


Hackers expose site

 

[Idorus]

The only one misleading people here is @Chinaski and sadly those unceasing nonsense selling creatures with only one sole purpose are usually the ones with the most supporters and blind followers. I made my ignore list a little longer so I don't have to read this energy intensive shit anymore.

 

[Johnnythefox]

The only one misleading people here is @Chinaski and sadly those unceasing nonsense selling creatures with only one sole purpose are usually the ones with the most supporters and blind followers. I made my ignore list a little longer so I don't have to read this energy intensive shit anymore.

Hugs.

 

[Chinaski]

The only one misleading people here is @Chinaski and sadly those unceasing nonsense selling creatures with only one sole purpose are usually the ones with the most supporters and blind followers. I made my ignore list a little longer so I don't have to read this energy intensive shit anymore.

Even the doctor upon whom you're relying to build a DeLorean of Suicide agrees that N is a superior method to The Actual Mafia, ffs.

 

[Idorus]

I guess we all experience words (Nuland), the visual (Smedley video) so entirely different that I don't know what to say anymore after all I've shared. You get it, or you don't. But convince yourself you have absorbed what I did. To me It's really as if I'm living in an entire universe of denial here. I don't get it honestly. I don't get why we kiss the ass of PN or any doc or docs in general here while on the other hand we are the biggest rebel against authority. How can this be rationalized with huge pros and cons, point is that I think N might be a very shitty way out. It's up to me. And it's up to you what you think.

Perfect illustration of different perceptions in Dignitas during assisted suicide (be prepared on a very sad exit story); https://www.smh.com.au/national/dealing-in-the-desire-for-death-20130524-2k5b2.html

 

[Chinaski]

I think N might be a very shitty way out. It's up to me. And it's up to you what you think.

You're right, it is up to you to decide against N as a method, absolutely nothing wrong with that, but l find flooding the place with bad info with the intent to dissuade others from using N is a strange move.

You'll also find that PN's arse is not often kissed around here, in fact there are numerous threads ripping the piss out of him and l can't remember the last time he was discussed in glowing terms. You're probably the only person here who is genuinely waiting for him to come good on his CyberDeathPod 2.0 bullshit, which suggests to me that you hold him in higher esteem than most tbh.

 

[GeorgeJL]

No...

Your dick can't feel pain on its own. Pain is a product of the brain. Whether or not the cells are capable of creating the signal that would trigger a pain reaction in the brain is irrelevant.

Anesthesia awareness - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Thus, the incidence is 0.2% in general surgery, about 0.4% during caesarean section, between 1 and 2% during cardiac surgery and between 10% and 40% for anesthesia of the traumatized.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] The majority of these do not feel pain although around one third did, in a range of experience from a sore throat due to the endotracheal tube, to traumatic pain at the incision site."

Not to mention that whoever is offering to kill you on the dark web is probably a) lying or b) indifferent to your suffering.

This is related enough.

Does the Head of a Guillotined Individual Remain Briefly Alive?
[URL="http://www.thoughtco.com/head-guillotined-individual-remain-briefly-alive-1221876[/URL]"]www.thoughtco.com/head-guillotined-individual-remain-briefly-alive-1221876[/URL]

"The Medical Answer
The current medical consensus is that life does survive, for a period of roughly thirteen seconds, varying slightly depending on the victim's build, health, and the immediate circumstances of the decapitation. The simple act of removing a head from a body is not what kills the brain, rather, it is the lack of oxygen and other important chemicals provided in the bloodstream. To quote Dr. Ron Wright, "The 13 seconds is the amount of high energy phosphates that the cytochromes in the brain have to keep going without new oxygen and glucose" (Cited from urbanlegends.com, no longer accessible). The precise post-execution lifespan will depend on how much oxygen and other chemicals were in the brain at the point of decapitation; however, eyes could certainly move and blink."

 

[OfficerK]

This is related enough.

Does the Head of a Guillotined Individual Remain Briefly Alive?
[URL="http://www.thoughtco.com/head-guillotined-individual-remain-briefly-alive-1221876[/URL]"]www.thoughtco.com/head-guillotined-individual-remain-briefly-alive-1221876[/URL]

"The Medical Answer
The current medical consensus is that life does survive, for a period of roughly thirteen seconds, varying slightly depending on the victim's build, health, and the immediate circumstances of the decapitation. The simple act of removing a head from a body is not what kills the brain, rather, it is the lack of oxygen and other important chemicals provided in the bloodstream. To quote Dr. Ron Wright, "The 13 seconds is the amount of high energy phosphates that the cytochromes in the brain have to keep going without new oxygen and glucose" (Cited from urbanlegends.com, no longer accessible). The precise post-execution lifespan will depend on how much oxygen and other chemicals were in the brain at the point of decapitation; however, eyes could certainly move and blink."

Does it say that the head continues to feel its body while the two are separated? That's what we're arguing. You are your brain. If we were to chop someone's arm off and keep it alive artificially, they would not be able to feel it. It makes no physical sense.

 

[Jupiter]

Nobody is kissing any arse. The downsides of N should certainly be discussed in an open way. But you, Idorus, present a study here and jump to your own conclusions. The study does not say at any point that Pentobarbital is an unsuitable ("horrible") way to end your life. In fact the study is kept pretty general about the different substances that were used.
What made me angry is that you frightened some people here for no reason who have already chosen N as their method.

 

[Arak]

@Idorus , Australia seems to have a very harsh attitude to suicide and euthanasia and assorted issues. Consider the source. And that they helped kill somone who was ''merely depressed' (??) is not against N.

 

[dandan]

N looks , seems , so peacefull to me... thinking in a better alternative is absurd... thinking of a better alternative is just playing...

 

[angie]

It's fair to say we're well aware of ldorus' position on N but this barrage of intentionally misleading information suggests a deeper need to dissuade others from choosing N as a method and the propelling of darknet hitmen and the Sarco machine as viable alternatives is absolutely absurd. If N isn't your method of choice that's absolutely fine, but deliberately putting out false scare stories such as the shit posted above is especially absurd when you consider that N is pedestalised above other methods not by paid shills on this website but by the actual PPH and practically every RTD org that exists.

can i ask where you read that the anti emetics stat dose for N has been reduced to 30mg from 60mg .thanks any help appreciated

 

[Chinaski]

can i ask where you read that the anti emetics stat dose for N has been reduced to 30mg from 60mg .thanks any help appreciated

The October 2018 PPeH, with an all new chapter on vomiting. There's a thread on it here somewhere if you use the search facility.

 

[Idorus]

@Jupiter You forget the knmg guideline from 2012 stating that the oral method is not preferred due to unpredictabilities i.c. not ending up in a coma or too late. From 1998 on only barbiturates were given and the research we talk about stems from before that time. Nothing seems to be changed unless we talk about the mentioned 15 gram from 2012 on which only shows some progression in the stats I showed. It's always been 2 hours after which additional IV was applied. It's only as of lately they will inject after 30 minutes but no idea if this has become rule. I get your anger but people also have to know N isn't all rosy as outlined all over the net. On the contrary, it might be a hell of a ride out in my opinion after all I've seen, read or heard. They have to know the ins and outs so they can decide for themselves whether going for it or not. I wish I was warned before my purchase.

 

[GeorgeJL]

Does it say that the head continues to feel its body while the two are separated? That's what we're arguing. You are your brain. If we were to chop someone's arm off and keep it alive artificially, they would not be able to feel it. It makes no physical sense.

No I am not arguing that the head could still feel it's body after being cut off. I am arguing that the body and head would both still feel some pain separately and in dependently from each other after being cut off because every cell is about to die. As I said pain occurs in both the head and throughout the nervous system because the cells would still have some blood and oxygen left even after dismemberment. Let me put it to you this way I believe atoms feel pain if put under certain conditions. Pain is a fundamental aspect of the universe, it's not made only by some module in the brain.

 

[Jupiter]

@Jupiter You forget the knmg guideline from 2012 stating that the oral method is not preferred due to unpredictabilities i.c. not ending up in a coma or too late.

I've just read it. But has there ever been a reported case where this has happened?

Edit: are you indicating that a patient could be conscious while going into respiratory arrest?

 

[angie]

The October 2018 PPeH, with an all new chapter on vomiting. There's a thread on it here somewhere if you use the search facility.

i cant find it im useless on this site lol. useless on the whole internet ,and now this sites changed im really confused ,was just getting the hang of the old version ,wheres search facility ?. what do i need to put in search to find it ?.

 

[nopoint]

Yup, my take.
I'm a bit googling around ... and I think I found a pretty "legit" and even affordable (?) hitman site: Besa mafia. Anyone heard of that? The public thinks it's a scam (Lol and I already know it isn't!) but that's only to escape the FBI etc. It sounds too good to be true; I get the impression you won't even lose your money if the job would fail as payments all go through a third trustable party. And the site owner is even a famous darknet expert. Well.. now; correct me if I'm wrong or... anyone familiar with it?

That is if you live in the US, and can legally get yourself a shotgun. If I can get my hands on a shotgun, then this will be my method.

 

[Idorus]

I've just read it. But has there ever been a reported case where this has happened?

Edit: are you indicating that a patient could be conscious while going into respiratory arrest?

Not that I'm aware of on your first question but I simply assume those guidelines derived from experience (never assumed otherwise). I never read about those specifics.
And yes that is exactly what I think on your 2nd question. Michelle Causse for example.. most see a peaceful death but I don't buy that and never did from the first time I saw it. She suddenly stops speaking with her eyes half open, doesn't say a thing anymore. The barbiturate starts working and still has to do its job. How can we know what she's feeling, what she's going through? The barbiturate might have left her paralyzed but no one notices, all we see is a "peaceful dying". It really really scared me from the moment I saw. Michele was very self-conscious and didn't want to look bad on tv. Smedley wasn't like that. In his case a very obvious suffering before he fell asleep although we can only guess how that ended.

It is however a bit less black & white than I thought regarding the 2 hours waiting before IV was applied. At the least back in the days . I recall a 2 hours max later in time. Just reading an article from our doc magazine (not public. available but I saved it - I can share it as a dutch attachment if needed) with the title; Application of euthanatics; Experiences of doctors in 227 patients, 1998-2000.
60 out of the 227 patients took the oral method (9 gram) So I'm citing about those 60 only ..... (google translate);

Duration until death;
- In the 60 patients with oral intake of drugs, with 47 (78.3) was waited until death occurred without using additional drugs. In 22 patients this was within 15 minutes (the shortest duration was 8 minutes), in 11 patients within 30 minutes, in 13 within 1 hour and in 1 the lapse of time was 2 hours. In the other 13 patients (21.7) it took - according to the agreement made with the patient - too long for death and a muscle relaxation was still administered. This decision was made 6 times after 1 h, 2 times after 2 h, 1 time after 2.5 h, 2 times after 3 h, 1 time after 6 h and 1 time after 7 h.

Practical problems oral method;
- The poor taste of the euthanasia drink was reported by a small number of doctors. Much has already been done to change the recipe of the drink, which has a fishy and soapy taste due to the large amount of pentobarbital it contains. The volume of 100 ml is too much for a small number of people to drink in one go. For this reason, a prescription was given in the 1998 report for a 75 ml drink that is more concentrated but tastes even worse and which, in addition, causes a burning sensation in the mouth due to the high percentage of ethanol and propylene glycol. The use of a straw should be discouraged to prevent the patient from falling asleep before the entire dose is taken.

- Although in most patients the time lag between taking and dying is less than 1 hour, a much longer period must be taken into account. As the results show, it can take more than 6-7 hours for death to occur. In the 1994 report, we reported 1 patient who died only after 24 hours and 3 patients whose doctors completed euthanasia after 12, 13 and 24 hours respectively by administering a muscle relaxation. Question about max. period of time, we can not answer.

- Based on this information, we maintain our opinion that with the oral method the physician must be prepared to end a coma with parenteral administration of a muscle relaxant and complete euthanasia. It is therefore of the utmost importance that the doctor discusses in advance with the patient and the family after which time he or she will proceed to end the patient's life. Incidentally, we do not know any data showing that a patient survived taking 9 g of seco or pentobarbital.

Ow look at that.. they even refer to the dated article we discuss here;

Reflection;
- n the first half of this year, Groenewoud et al. Published an analysis of clinical problems experienced by Dutch doctors who performed active euthanasia in 535 patients and who provided suicide assistance in 114 patients in the period 1990-1991 and 1995-1996. They state that in 51 patients the time between administration and the onset of death is on average 180 minutes, with the last 5 minutes to 7 days. The drugs used in these 51 patients are not specified. Neither does this become clear in the 22 patients in the group with the intention of assisting suicide, whose average lapse of time is also 180 minutes with a spread of 45 minutes to 7 days. It is, however, mentioned that in the total group with intention of euthanasia muscle relaxants were used in 69 of the patients. Here the lapse of time may have been a maximum of 30 minutes. Unfortunately, the relationship between the measured interval, the various euthanatics used and the route of administration is not clearly described in any way, so that we are completely in the dark about the reliability of the various products.

It would have been practically relevant if this publication had informed readers about this. We therefore agree with Crul that this information is not only dated but also incomplete. In order to be able to keep abreast of the method of implementation and of the problems that may arise during the implementation, the reporting of experiences, positive and negative, of doctors is necessary. We therefore ask doctors to report their experiences to us with a doctor's form. A copy of the doctor's form is included in the 1998 "Application and preparation of euthanatics" report.

 

[Chinaski]

And yes that is exactly what I think on your 2nd question. Michelle Causse for example.. most see a peaceful death but I don't buy that and never did from the first time I saw it. She suddenly stops speaking with here eyes half open, doesn't say a thing anymore. The barbiturate starts working and still has to do its job. How can we know what she's feeling, what she's going through? Michele was very self-conscious and didn't want to look bad on tv.

She clearly does not stop speaking with her eyes half open. She states she's dizzy but still comfortable enough to request another chocolate; five seconds later she's asleep. The last sentence l quoted here frankly beggars belief; you're suggesting she was in a clear amount of serious discomfort which is so obvious that literally only you could see it, yet was able to competently hide her agonising death throes because she didn't want it to be bad TV. Seriously?

 

[Jupiter]

Thank you @Idorus for your detailed answer.
I disagree with you in the case of Michelle Causse. But will leave it at that. However, I agree with you in the case of Smedley. I noticed some discomfort, too. But I assume it was for of the bad taste.

Much has already been done The volume of 100 ml is too much for a small number of people to drink in one go. For this reason, a prescription was given in the 1998 report for a 75 ml drink that is more concentrated but tastes even worse and which, in addition, causes a burning sensation in the mouth due to the high percentage of ethanol and propylene glycol.

This is valuable information. It might be a hint that 200ml don't taste as bad.

I can understand your concern about the oral intake. Besides the bad taste I also wonder why in rare cases the time until death is so long as you cited. I think most of us here would prefer iv. But that's not an option at least for me.

Referring to the study we discussed here:

Unfortunately, the relationship between the measured interval, the various euthanatics used and the route of Administration is not clearly described in any way, so that we are completely in the dark about the reliability of the various products.

Yes. Unfortunately. But I assume these were the early stages of documented euthanasia back then and they didn't think of being more specific about the various substances. But I clearly have to say that 7 days is absolutely insane. I'm surprised they didn't intervene. The cause of death could also have been dehydration (assuming they were left alone).

 

[bubbletea]

Maybe @Idorus has a point.

I came across this article:

The Many Lives of a Death Drug

The State of Texas uses pentobarbital for lethal injections, a drug with a long and complicated history. But the question everyone wants answered remains: Is it a painless way to die?

www.google.ca

"
This is why many find the secrecy of the TDCJ so disconcerting. If nobody knows who is making the pentobarbital and who is testing it, then nobody knows whether it will lead to a quick, painless death or an agonizing ordeal. After all, the one person who would be able to confirm or deny its efficacy isn't capable of doing so.
In April triple murderer Jose Villegas was executed using the current stock of pentobarbital. As it began to flow through his veins, he noted, "It does kind of burn," before gasping several times and falling silent
"

" Harvard anesthesiologist David Waisel told Mother Jones that even tiny contaminants in pentobarbital from a compounding pharmacy could "cause an inmate immense pain in his veins" which could be "compared to rubbing sandpaper on an open wound."

Does anyone know the quality of a's n..?

 

[Arak]

@bubbletea , I do know that you're not supposed to inject the vet pentobarbital. Or am I wrong ? It's not sterile if I'm not mistaken. I suspect the quality is good.
A good article though.

 

[bubbletea]

@bubbletea , I do know that you're not supposed to inject the vet pentobarbital. Or am I wrong ? It's not sterile if I'm not mistaken. I suspect the quality is good.
A good article though.

I see, thanks for clearing that up

 

[kaliban923]

I learned about his method when talking to friend of the family's husband who had this happen to him.

While there are risks of screwing it up, walking out on a highway right around a blind curve with an 18 wheeler coming around the bend at full highway speed is pretty much instant death. Though, know that it can and probably will traumatize the driver. This method is not uncommon for homeless folks since they often dont have the money needed by different methods.

 

[Idorus]

I think most of us here would prefer iv. But that's not an option at least for me.

If you were in the position to leave your country to live here (living here is the requirement for an euthanasia clinic request) then my door is open. Not thinking about all the practical consequences right now, obviously.

 

[Chinaski]

Maybe @Idorus has a point.

I came across this article:

The Many Lives of a Death Drug

The State of Texas uses pentobarbital for lethal injections, a drug with a long and complicated history. But the question everyone wants answered remains: Is it a painless way to die?

www.google.ca

"
This is why many find the secrecy of the TDCJ so disconcerting. If nobody knows who is making the pentobarbital and who is testing it, then nobody knows whether it will lead to a quick, painless death or an agonizing ordeal. After all, the one person who would be able to confirm or deny its efficacy isn't capable of doing so.
In April triple murderer Jose Villegas was executed using the current stock of pentobarbital. As it began to flow through his veins, he noted, "It does kind of burn," before gasping several times and falling silent
"

" Harvard anesthesiologist David Waisel told Mother Jones that even tiny contaminants in pentobarbital from a compounding pharmacy could "cause an inmate immense pain in his veins" which could be "compared to rubbing sandpaper on an open wound."

Does anyone know the quality of a's n..?

The reason for this is that the US has started using compound pharmacies to create the lethal drug because they're unable to get it elsewhere due to the moral issue of the death penalty. As a result they've basically been fucking about with compound drugs ever since. It's fair to say that the torturous experience endured by those on the receiving end of these cack-handed experiments is significantly different to the experience of drinking a lethal dose of barbiturates at Dignitas, which is a lot closer to the reality of an N ctb imo.