You shouldn’t end your life, unless…

[Insomniac]

In another thread, about a French family's collective suicide, you said:

If life has no intrinsic value, why did you differentiate between how these people died, and label the parents "deranged"? They were just lives, ending. Why care how?

If they were suicidal, they shouldn't have had children in the first place.

and murder is a crime (legally). suicide is not. It's legal in most countries.

also wtf at your answer honestly? Does that mean that every atheist in the world should just commit murder?

 

[thedaywillcome]

You are born with a servere medical condition. Or you are born with serious biological issues, then you got real reason for suicide. Thats indeed the case for me.

 

[Britvik]

If they were suicidal, they shouldn't have had children in the first place.

and murder is a crime (legally). suicide is not. It's legal in most countries.

also wtf at your answer honestly? Does that mean that every atheist in the world should just commit murder?

They may not have been suicidal 8 and 15 years earlier, when they had their children.

I wasn't commenting on the legality of ending life, nor society's attitudes towards it. I was commenting on the lack of value you place on life. If it has no value, how it ends shouldn't matter to you. If it matters, please explain.

The person has a disabling mental health condition and has been living under extreme financial stress for many years. The person lives in a first-world country where not everyone gets healthcare, disability is difficult to get without major support, disability is not actually enough to live on anyhow, and the vast majority of "comfortable" people have no understanding of what it is like not to be. The person (some years ago) attempted treatment at their own considerable expense. Medications didn't work and/or had medically adverse side effects. Therapy was counterproductive. There was no more money to spend. The person holds an exploitative WFH job (no benefits, not full time, periodic layoffs), becomes more and more isolated. The person is at a point where ADLs (bathing/laundry) are somehow "impossible," and leaving the house to be among people is extremely stressful for multiple reasons (have to bathe, have to have clean clothing, have to manage to show up somewhere on time, have to be around people). The person is at a point where the only thing getting done is work. The person has to leave the house for an appointment and is worried because they know using the time and ENERGY (physical and mental) to get ready to go, go do it, then recover from it will make it hard to finish work. For superstitious reasons/self comfort/effort to bolster self esteem, the person decides to wear the wool fedora given to them by their deceased grandfather.

Despite best efforts (that were exhausting), the person is late to the appointment, and there are—at a minimum--social consequences for that (palpable disapproval, the knowledge that others were inconvenienced, etc.). The appointment is exhausting/stressful/difficult due to trying to front being a normal person, failing, knowing they were failing, knowing others were disturbed, shame, etc. On the way home, it starts raining, person forgets they're wearing the wool fedora while ruminating about awkward moments during the appointment, their distress over their inability to be on time, their distress that others do not understand loss of executive function, etc. The person then starts having negative thoughts about their inability to plan ahead enough to check the weather. Similar things have happened in the past. The person thinks they should have learned from past experiences and is feeling self-loathing/disappointment. The person realizes they're wearing the hat, and the hat has been ruined by the rain. They're devastated. Maybe the hat could be resurrected by a hat expert somewhere, but that is expensive and there is no spare money. There is no one to talk to who will actually understand why the loss of their grandfather's wool hat is devastating. For years, there has been no one to talk to because the issues are unrelatable, and the explanations are complicated and invite judgment.

The person commits suicide. Out of being exhausted, having trouble concentrating, whatever, the note simply says, "Well, I forgot my umbrella today, and my hat got ruined. That has caused me to realize that my life truly is not worth the effort of living it." People talk about the way this person died by suicide for a stupid, impulsive reason.

Yes, I know the example was about hair getting wet and not about a hat getting ruined. I'd guess there might be a situation where getting your hair wet is also a big deal for some reason.

If I understand correctly, you've made the case that the destruction of a hat with sentimental value could be "the straw that broke the camel's back", pushing the owner to suicide. While it might appear "stupid" and "impulsive", it would be one of a number of unfortunate influences on someone's life and should, therefore, be viewed as such.

In this case, you describe mental health problems that cause most of the suffering. I have two points to make. The first is that mental health can be improved; if improvement occurs, suffering likely reduces. The second is that mental health problems can affect the sufferer's cognitive ability and/or their ability to rationalise. If someone's thought processes are compromised by mental ill health, they shouldn't be making decisions that would remove all chance of improvement.

 

[Britvik]

I have severe depression, chronic pain and itching all over the body, no family, abused as a child, every day I feel heartbroken and lonely. I think some of these are good reasons.

It makes me very sad to read this. It's understandable that you feel despair as a result of your experiences to date.

Is there any hope of improvement?

Depression can be overcome. It requires time, effort, persistence and help. But, it can be done, I promise.

Chronic pain and itching are conditions that sound treatable by medical professionals.

Having no family can be difficult. But, good relationships can be a substitute. Finding such relationships isn't impossible.

Child abuse can be devastating. I have the utmost contempt for those who abuse vulnerable children for their own selfish ends. It requires a lot of help and support to deal with, but it's possible. You don't need to let the scumbags who abused you continue to have such an influence. Easy to say, I know. But, it is possible.

Heartbreak and loneliness are tragic, there's no doubt about it. But, both can be made temporary. I'm not saying it's easy; just that it's possible. And, where there is possibility, there is hope.

I hope you find the strength to turn your life around. You deserve it. My sincerest best wishes in finding a way.

 

[VoidDesirer22]

I don't see it as being my place to say when someone should or shouldn't ctb. If a quadruple amputee on ventilation wants to continue living, I respect that. If someone who is young and perfectly healthy wants to ctb because they've just had enough of the world, I respect that too.

I respect all attempts to persuade people to continue living, but not when they involve blocking of access to methods, or use of force. I also understand that encouragement of ctb is problematic, because most people who ctb don't want to hear others goading them to die, and they aren't making the choice happily, rather they feel they must.

This is a model answer. A+

 

[sharky]

It makes me very sad to read this. It's understandable that you feel despair as a result of your experiences to date.

Is there any hope of improvement?

Depression can be overcome. It requires time, effort, persistence and help. But, it can be done, I promise.

Chronic pain and itching are conditions that sound treatable by medical professionals.

Having no family can be difficult. But, good relationships can be a substitute. Finding such relationships isn't impossible.

Child abuse can be devastating. I have the utmost contempt for those who abuse vulnerable children for their own selfish ends. It requires a lot of help and support to deal with, but it's possible. You don't need to let the scumbags who abused you continue to have such an influence. Easy to say, I know. But, it is possible.

Heartbreak and loneliness are tragic, there's no doubt about it. But, both can be made temporary. I'm not saying it's easy; just that it's possible. And, where there is possibility, there is hope.

I hope you find the strength to turn your life around. You deserve it. My sincerest best wishes in finding a way.

Well, I was going from doctor to doctor for 6 years because of my pain and nothing helped. Then I took medicine that had so many side effects that I got depressed because of it. But it helped with the pain a bit. Then 6 years later I was diagnosed with a rare condition of nerve pain. There might be better treatments in the future but as of now I'm stuck with what I have and maybe cannabis, but Healthcare doesn't cover it

People are also very disappointing, it's very hard to find people that don't abandon you once Someone better comes around.
Loneliness is hell for me. I know all of that can be overcome with a bit of luck, but sometimes I feel cursed. I'm an overthinker and I sometimes think I can never truly be happy. At least I don't remember ever being happy.

But I cherish the good moments, and I've had some of them.
Thank you for your kind words. I wish you the best too

 

[Britvik]

I don't see it as being my place to say when someone should or shouldn't ctb. If a quadruple amputee on ventilation wants to continue living, I respect that. If someone who is young and perfectly healthy wants to ctb because they've just had enough of the world, I respect that too.

I respect all attempts to persuade people to continue living, but not when they involve blocking of access to methods, or use of force. I also understand that encouragement of ctb is problematic, because most people who ctb don't want to hear others goading them to die, and they aren't making the choice happily, rather they feel they must.

It is not your place to decide whether someone can end their life. However, freedom of thought and speech allows you to comment on whether you think they should.

I respect people's right to do with their life as they wish, as long as it doesn't impinge on others' similar right.

With that out of the way, we can assess whether there are good and bad reasons to end one's life. But, to do so usefully, I would suggest, requires a deeper understanding of someone's motives than, "they've just had enough of the world".

 

[thedaywillcome]

You are born very flawed, what makes your life very unworthy to live.

I stand by my prior statements. Once you bring rationality into the discussion as a caveat, it is a slippery slope to the conclusion of suicide itself as irrational under all circumstances. Some argue that the decision to die can never be rational. By that definition, anyone who chooses to die is irrational.

If you do not define information and capacity, that makes age a useless variable when it comes to judging others' decisions. If the former two variables depend on the individual, you admit that age is an arbitrary condition - as it is immaterial to the other two conditions, which can be attained at largely any age. Otherwise you must set predefined notions of what is an acceptable age and what constitutes adequate information and viable capacity in order to judge another's decision as rational.

Saying that it is part of the definition is circular logic - you still have not defined the boundaries of capacity and information.

Can an autistic or developmentally disabled person make a rational choice to die? What about someone five or ten years younger than you? Just because they have not gone through your particular life trajectory does not make their decision any less valid. If someone's suffering is unbearable to them and they see no point to living for the sake of placating others, denying them bodily autonomy on the basis of lack of satisfying some externally-imposed condition is a violation of human rights.

People have the right to do things that you think are stupid. That is the beauty of free will. What you think about that is moot - it is the individual's choice. I do personally think that people ought to exhaust every possible treatment option available to them before giving up. But I am not going to pretend I can understand their daily struggle nor that I would choose any differently were I in their position. And if a person chooses to reject treatment, that is their choice as well and ought to be respected.

Suicide is emotional not rational. SI itself is irrational.

 

[Britvik]

This is a model answer. A+

B+

 

[artificial_ineptness]

Discussing the reasons for doing so, is harmless. And, if it causes someone to reconsider their reasons, it might even be beneficial.

I am not so sure about this, as any discussion like this seem to generate more resistance and feelings of invalidation / having to justify someone's personal suffering, than it seems to ever change anyone's mind. Academia or small personal circles might be the only places where it might work (but I'd be happy to be wrong about this, tbh).

Only thing I can try to offer you is this dissertation that I enjoyed reading, as it had a (IMO nice) literature review of the "rational suicide" literature and some interesting ideas (Jean Améry's work, and the concept of an "appropriate death"). Maybe that is useful to you (or anyone).

 

[Britvik]

I am not so sure about this, as any discussion like this seem to generate more resistance and feelings of invalidation / having to justify someone's personal suffering, than it seems to ever change anyone's mind. Academia or small personal circles might be the only places where it might work (but I'd be happy to be wrong about this, tbh).

Only thing I can try to offer you is this dissertation that I enjoyed reading, as it had a (IMO nice) literature review of the "rational suicide" literature and some interesting ideas (Jean Améry's work, and the concept of an "appropriate death"). Maybe that is useful to you (or anyone).

I can't worry too much about what resistance this discussion might meet, but must share what I believe is true and wait to be proven wrong.

I hope others don't think I'm asking them to justify their suffering. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm asking people to justify the decision to end life. I think there are good and bad reasons. I want to find out what they are through discussion.

Thank you for the referral. Much appreciated.

 

[SpaceCadet]

You shouldn't end your life, unless… you want it. Some reasons to ctb are definetly stronger than others. The truth is all people should have their right to do it. My main concern is in those cases where they were underage or others were telling them to do it.

 

[Insomniac]

They may not have been suicidal 8 and 15 years earlier, when they had their children.

I wasn't commenting on the legality of ending life, nor society's attitudes towards it. I was commenting on the lack of value you place on life. If it has no value, how

why would the "morality" or "rationality" of it be more important than the "legality" of it? If suicide was illegal in my country, I wouldn't even think about it because I'm afraid of jail.

thankfully it's not. It's only forbidden in my religion (that says that I'm going to hell for it). but hell is still better than ending up in jail in a third-world country.

Also, I'm an antinatalist and I believe most people shouldn't have children if they don't have a fortune to give to their child as soon as they're born lol. I'm a shameless capitalist and yes money would solve all my issues.

 

[Britvik]

why would the "morality" or "rationality" of it be more important than the "legality" of it? If suicide was illegal in my country, I wouldn't even think about it because I'm afraid of jail.

thankfully it's not. It's only forbidden in my religion (that says that I'm going to hell for it). but hell is still better than ending up in jail in a third-world country.

Also, I'm an antinatalist and I believe most people shouldn't have children if they don't have a fortune to give to their child as soon as they're born lol. I'm a shameless capitalist and yes money would solve all my issues.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I hope someone finds it useful.

 

[Insomniac]

I hope someone finds it useful.

I gotta say, that's a hella polite way to tell someone to go f themselves xD

 

[motel rooms]

I'm asking people to justify the decision to end life.

Basically, I think there are good and bad reasons to end one's life. I also think there are few good reasons.

 

[Britvik]

As entertaining as your emotional reaction is, it leaves me none the wiser. When you've calmed down, could you explain?

 

[motel rooms]

As entertaining as your emotional reaction is, it leaves me none the wiser. When you've calmed down, could you explain?

It's entertaining that you think there are few good reasons to ctb. Do you believe we live in the best of all possible worlds or something? That would explain why you said "there is unlimited potential for happiness in this life". #ForcedPositivityRules

I'm fine with people saying it isn't impossible for things to get better, but limitless optimism is just plain silly...

 

[Britvik]

It's entertaining that you think there are few good reasons to ctb. Do you believe we live in the best of all possible worlds or something? That would explain why you said "there is unlimited potential for happiness in this life". #ForcedPositivityRules

I'm fine with people saying it isn't impossible for things to get better, but limitless optimism is just plain silly...

Hmmm. I'm beginning to think you missed the context. If you look at the paragraph I was responding to, you'll notice I have written the exact opposite. The idea here is that for every negative there is an equal and opposite positive. Darkness and light. Ugliness and beauty. Chaos and order. Yin and Yang. The universe seems filled with these opposites. There can only be one because there is the other.

So, yes life has an unlimited potential for suffering. But, it also has an unlimited potential for happiness. There are worse ways to spend life than trying to fulfil the latter.

 

[Cathy Ames]

In this case, you describe mental health problems that cause most of the suffering. I have two points to make. The first is that mental health can be improved; if improvement occurs, suffering likely reduces. The second is that mental health problems can affect the sufferer's cognitive ability and/or their ability to rationalise. If someone's thought processes are compromised by mental ill health, they shouldn't be making decisions that would remove all chance of improvement.

I would say this reply from you is invalidating, condescending, and facile. You seem like you might be a well-intentioned person, albeit super privileged, but I have definitely lost a lot of my respect for you based on this. Have fun with your thought puzzles, semantics, and fun word games at other peoples' expense.

 

[motel rooms]

Hmmm. I'm beginning to think you missed the context. If you look at the paragraph I was responding to, you'll notice I have written the exact opposite.

I didn't miss anything.

So, yes life has an unlimited potential for suffering. But, it also has an unlimited potential for happiness. There are worse ways to spend life than trying to fulfil the latter.

No, both the potential for happiness & suffering are limited by our brain chemistry.

 

[Britvik]

I would say this reply from you is invalidating, condescending, and facile. You seem like you might be a well-intentioned person, albeit super privileged, but I have definitely lost a lot of my respect for you based on this. Have fun with your thought puzzles, semantics, and fun word games at other peoples' expense.

Thank you for your feedback. Unfortunately, you don't explain your harsh judgement. It's sad to read that you think my words are "invalidating, condescending and facile" and that you think I'm playing games at other people's expense. I don't know how else to discuss something other than to say what I believe. I can only tell you that I don't have the intentions you ascribe to me. But, if you're the judgemental sort, what will it matter?
I wish you well in any case.

 

[Cathy Ames]

But, if you're the judgemental sort, what will it matter?

Interesting to read this from someone who is so very judgmental.

 

[Britvik]

No, both the potential for happiness & suffering are limited by our brain chemistry.

Ok. Let's agree that there is a limit to suffering and happiness. The brain can only produce and process so much, after all.

Interesting to read this from someone who is so very judgmental.

Judgemental of whom?
If I'm guilty of judging anything, it is ideas, not people.

 

[motel rooms]

Are you like one of those shrinks who deem people afflicted with treatment-resistant depression permanently incapable of making rational decisions because they're depressed? Yes, they're fucking depressed, but you've admitted you can't help them, so let them out of the cage & allow them to choose to die. Do their lives belong to them or to mental institutions? @Britvik

 

[Britvik]

Are you like one of those shrinks who deem people afflicted with treatment-resistant depression permanently incapable of making rational decisions because they're depressed? Yes, they're fucking depressed, but you've admitted you can't help them, so let them out of the cage & allow them to choose to die. Do their lives belong to them or to mental institutions? @Britvik

I'm not a mental health professional, no.

I support everybody's right to do what they like with their life, as long as it doesn't impinge on others' similar right. This includes ending their own life. I also think there are good and bad reasons to end life.

I support assisted dying, under strict conditions designed to minimise the chance of abuse (as anything involving humans is susceptible to corruption).

 

[Judy Garland]

I'm not a mental health professional, no.

I support everybody's right to do what they like with their life, as long as it doesn't impinge on others' similar right. This includes ending their own life. I also think there are good and bad reasons to end life.

I support assisted dying, under strict conditions designed to minimise the chance of abuse (as anything involving humans is susceptible to corruption).

What would be your definition of abuse for assisted dying?

 

[motel rooms]

I'm not a mental health professional, no.

I know that, I asked you if you were like one of those psychiatrists.

I support everybody's right to do what they like with their life, as long as it doesn't impinge on others' similar right. This includes taking their own life. I also think there are good and bad reasons to do so.

Is suffering from treatment-resistant depression a good enough reason?

 

[Britvik]

I know that, I asked you if you were like one of those psychiatrists.



Is suffering from treatment-resistant depression a good enough reason?

I'm not a mental health professional, but I'll try to answer your question about treatment-resistant depression.

If something is resistant to something else, it doesn't mean that it's impenetrable. You might still get wet if wearing water-resistant clothes, for example.

While there remains a possibility of improvement, I think new treatments should continue to be sought out and tried.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I'm going to end my life because if I don't, then my future, currently unborn children are going to suffer so much that they will feel compelled to acquire a means of time travel to ensure they were never born by going back into my past and manipulating my life in order to make it so I never meet their mother, which they've already done. If I kill myself, there is no chance of this happening in the first place and they won't have to suffer.

Oh yeah and I'd also rather die than continue living without having a family even though I realize how ethically wrong this makes me. I wouldn't be able to accept any alternatives such as vasectomy, adoption, wizardry by being a permavirgin, or even the DINK lifestyle. As much as I wish I could, my lizard brain will always feel the disgusting need to breed and any form of compromise would also be a fate worse than death for me.

But none of that matters in the face of me simply wanting to end my own suffering. I realize that this isn't going to happen without me dying because I'm the cause of my own suffering so to kill my suffering is to kill me. I can't just stop wanting to sabotage and ruin myself because the only thing that ever came close to making me want to stop was when I was almost in a relationship for the first time a year and a half ago. but once that fell through my two selves drifted further apart than ever and hate each other even more. No girl is ever going to want a 28 year old dateless incel guy especially not with all this baggage I have and they shouldn't. Any girl who would like me would have to be either insane or severely misinformed.