I think your Benadryl numbers are off? I always see 20-40mg/kg as the ld50 for adult humans. Your linked source lists 10mg/kg as the minimum lethal dose in humans. By the 20-40mg/kg numbers, about one 25mg pill per 2lbs body weight would be the math.
athiestjoe
Passenger
- Sep 24, 2024
- 410
I know this stuff can get confusing so let me clarify a few things:
(2) The number you seem to have given seems to have been pulled from this addiction/recovery 'resource' website. Take it for what it is!
(3) You might encounter terms like "toxic dose," which doesn't necessarily imply lethality; a toxic dose can make someone very ill without being fatal. You might also see "LD min," which refers to the minimum amount of a substance that can cause death—not "will" or "shall" or even "might at a 50% risk. Or you might also find "LDLO" (the minimum dose that has resulted in a lethal effect, though it does not quantify how often this occurs and also has some other inherent flaws such such as the wide individualized specifications of that person, etc). All those terms are distinct from LD50, and to reiterate, an LD50 for humans simply does not exist. I understand the possible confusion!
(4) Here are some further resources regarding the well established LD50 to further support what has already been listed here. However, as with anything and as encouraged in my original post, please conduct lots of your own research as well! Everyone makes mistakes and errors although I think contextually even if something was a little off it doesn't actually really change the 'big picture' of the post in any meaningful way.
Bottom line, please do not consider trying an attempt using Benedryl. It is a very unwise decision as delirium, psychosis, hallucinations, and seizures would not be enjoyable and is just more likely to cause potentially long-term effects rather than kill someone.
Hope that helps and hope you find everything you are looking for and get peace & serenity.
(1) -- you won't "always see" (let alone find) an LD50 for humans when it comes to medications. As discussed in the main post, LD50 represents the lethal dose derived from clinical trials on laboratory animals, where 50% of the subjects die. Just to clarify (and for a bit of humor), companies do NOT test increasing doses on groups of 100 humans until half of them die to determine an LD50. Simply woud be unethical for all the obvious reasons, not to mention all the other serious effects that would happen to people while trying to escalate to some lethal dose in 50% stat. Researchers can safely evaluate higher doses using lab animals without endangering human lives. Additionally, even if human trials were conducted to find what dose would kill 50% of the subjects, individual responses to drugs can vary greatly due to factors like genetics, age, weight, and health conditions, making it challenging to establish a standard number. That's simply not how these figures are derived.
(2) The number you seem to have given seems to have been pulled from this addiction/recovery 'resource' website. Take it for what it is!
(3) You might encounter terms like "toxic dose," which doesn't necessarily imply lethality; a toxic dose can make someone very ill without being fatal. You might also see "LD min," which refers to the minimum amount of a substance that can cause death—not "will" or "shall" or even "might at a 50% risk. Or you might also find "LDLO" (the minimum dose that has resulted in a lethal effect, though it does not quantify how often this occurs and also has some other inherent flaws such such as the wide individualized specifications of that person, etc). All those terms are distinct from LD50, and to reiterate, an LD50 for humans simply does not exist. I understand the possible confusion!
(4) Here are some further resources regarding the well established LD50 to further support what has already been listed here. However, as with anything and as encouraged in my original post, please conduct lots of your own research as well! Everyone makes mistakes and errors although I think contextually even if something was a little off it doesn't actually really change the 'big picture' of the post in any meaningful way.
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Diphenhydramine: Uses, Interactions, Mechanism of Action | DrugBank Online
Diphenhydramine is a H1 receptor antihistamine used in the treatment of seasonal allergies, and various allergic reactions including sneezing, runny nose, itchy/watery eyes, itching of nose or throat, pruritus, urticaria, insect bites/stings, and allergic rashes.
go.drugbank.com
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Diphenhydramine
Diphenhydramine | C17H21NO | CID 3100 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.
pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
As stated in the original post, my math may be not perfect and everyone is highly suggested to do their own calculations! I'm only human and definitely have been known to make some slip ups! Here, however, as indicated above with even more LD50 data for this medication, the math would be in line with this post's research purposes so the original math given is correct indeed.
Bottom line, please do not consider trying an attempt using Benedryl. It is a very unwise decision as delirium, psychosis, hallucinations, and seizures would not be enjoyable and is just more likely to cause potentially long-term effects rather than kill someone.
Hope that helps and hope you find everything you are looking for and get peace & serenity.
cracklingroses
Member
- Sep 10, 2023
- 57
I am just so curious on some people I know's deaths with OTC Diphenhydramine. They were even heavy abusers with a huge tolerance and still managed to pass away. Maybe there is more context like underlying health conditions or the combination of alcohol.
Which brings me to my question. I am sure the lethality rate raises when overdoses are used in conjunction with alcohol but I just wonder if it would really increase chances by much. I mean people do die from alcohol poisoning, so I always wondered if the combination would be more likely. Then again you would probably be more likely to puke...
I appreciate your info. Whether your calculations are accurate or not still is a good emphasis on the incredible likelihood that it won't be fatal. It is important to emphasize because of the risk of serious health complications so I am really glad this post was made. I agree about it being pinned.
I impulsively took a large overdose of DXM that put me on a ventilator in the ICU back in August despite doing research on how unlikely it would be that I succeeded. Plus I have a large tolerance already built.
It's just scary how easy it is to down a bunch of pills without thinking things through much when you are impulsive and desperate. I think I still had a part of me that was sure it was going to work.
I wonder if the outcome would have been any different if I had included alcohol and was not in a location where I could be found. Then I also wonder if I would have died if I wasn't found since I was unconscious and seizing. *sigh*
I just wish CTB wasn't so damn impossible. I know so many people who have been successful and always wonder how they managed to do it. What made them any different from me?
Which brings me to my question. I am sure the lethality rate raises when overdoses are used in conjunction with alcohol but I just wonder if it would really increase chances by much. I mean people do die from alcohol poisoning, so I always wondered if the combination would be more likely. Then again you would probably be more likely to puke...
I appreciate your info. Whether your calculations are accurate or not still is a good emphasis on the incredible likelihood that it won't be fatal. It is important to emphasize because of the risk of serious health complications so I am really glad this post was made. I agree about it being pinned.
I impulsively took a large overdose of DXM that put me on a ventilator in the ICU back in August despite doing research on how unlikely it would be that I succeeded. Plus I have a large tolerance already built.
It's just scary how easy it is to down a bunch of pills without thinking things through much when you are impulsive and desperate. I think I still had a part of me that was sure it was going to work.
I wonder if the outcome would have been any different if I had included alcohol and was not in a location where I could be found. Then I also wonder if I would have died if I wasn't found since I was unconscious and seizing. *sigh*
I just wish CTB wasn't so damn impossible. I know so many people who have been successful and always wonder how they managed to do it. What made them any different from me?
athiestjoe
Passenger
- Sep 24, 2024
- 410
This would definitely increase the risk of vomiting and potential liver or organ damage, depending on the amount and type of medication involved. It places significant strain on the body and can result in lasting harm, making it a particularly dangerous choice.
It's very likely that will be the case. Factors like underlying health issues and age often contribute to those rare instances of death, making it unreliable as a method for others to consider.
I'm truly sorry to hear about your experience and the pain you've endured. I agree that impulsivity or desperation often drives people to consider such a tragic option. As mentioned in the original post, just because it's within reach doesn't mean it's a viable choice. I believe that attempts involving overdoses are often made in a moment of desperation, and given the low chances of success and the high risks involved, it's certainly not worth it. I completely understand why some may be tempted, and I don't want to downplay the immense suffering that leads to such thoughts or actual attempts via OD. Many people might not realize the reality of these situations, thinking it's easier than what the media or movies portray, which is far from the truth.
Absolutely my pleasure.
With whatever you decide, I wish you all the best in your endeavors.
DunnoWhyButYeah
~*-*~
- Apr 3, 2020
- 385
A good reminder, thanks. In these, however, other things must be taken into account, such as tolerance, how the heart/lungs are doing, etc., what side effects will occur and whether they can already be fatal with a smaller amount. Every person is different and if you are not healthy (or the medicines work together in a certain way), the end result can be very different even with a much smaller amount as I know is the case with me.
OnlyOneSolution
Longing for death = not enjoying life.
- Oct 26, 2024
- 86
Vomiting with OD.
That explains my failures. I took a couple of bottles of anti depressants (Desipramine hydrochloride). I aspirated, which means I vomited then inhaled the vomit. It coated my lungs. When I woke up on a ventilator, it was horrible because my breathing rate did not match the ventilator's and I gagged... Felt like I was drowning. On top of that, they damaged my vocal cords when they intubated me. My breathing and voice have never been the same. Failure sucks.
You say that OD of opio/benzo (taken both I suppose ?) is peaceful. For a people who never took opio, how many pills could it need ? I read you say 1 pill of morphine 200mg will kill 50% of people who never took before. Could it seem possible that 4 or 5 pills of 200mg would kill quite 100% of these people ? And sorry, another question because you seem an expert about that, when you say that OD of opio/benzo is peaceful, what does it mean exactly ? What happens after taking the pills ? And to CTB with OD of opio/benzo, how many opio would be necessary (pills) ? Are morphine pills real opios or other opios drugs with similar effects at the same quantity ? Thank you.
Romanticize
Member
- Aug 22, 2024
- 75
1. Yes in theory it should be peaceful. Because they are CNS depressants, they will first depress (slow down) your brain activity, so you will become unbelievably sleepy, and then just pass out. This is importang - you would drift into unconsciousness, and wouldn't even know ("remember") it. In hospital, before a surgery, they give you Midazolam, which is a benzodiazepine and it helps to sedate and calm down patient, who may otherwise panic of be very anxious. Also it kind of messes up the short term memory, so often memories from just before the surgery are blurry.
There are many kind (in every country like 20-30 benzodiazepines) sold in pharmacies, like diazepam, alprazolam (xanax), estazolam, lorazepam, clonazepam etc. Plus not benzos, but very similar hypnotic "z-drugs" like zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplone. Besides them, there are RC (research chemicals, grey zone, not yet banned fully, so sometimes you can get them in some RCshops, both online and offline) like etizolam (at some time I know it was legal in pharm use in 3 countries; Japan, Italy and one other I forgot), flualprazolam, flubromazolam. RC is bad in this sense that you aren't 100% sure about what's inside, and dosage. Also, benzos alone won't kill you, they are used to potentiate opioids, there is incredible synergy between them. Also they help you calm down, relax and sleep, which is what you want.
2. There are different type of opioids/opiates (opioid is a general term for synthetic and natural ones: substances that work by binding to opioid receptors; and opiate is a term used for natural substances derived from opium poppy seed plant. Many people don't know the difference or use them interchangeably, but this knowledge isn't all that necessary). It is Opioids that kill. Benzos are used to potentiate. Opioid alone can kill easily, benzo alone will not. The best is of course to mix, as big the dosages as possible.
3. There are weak opioids, like codeine, tramadol or dihydrocodeine. Don't plan to CTB using these. The medium/strong ones are you go-to substances. The best well known baseline is Morphine. Similar strength opioids are oxycodone (oxycontin), hydrocodone, oxymorphone, hydromorphone (dilaudid) etc. Also heroin is about 1.5 - 3 times stronger than morphine, it means you just need less dose of H, or higher dose of M.
And there are super strong opioids, like fentanyl and its derivatives, like furanyl-fentanyl, once known and synthetic U-47700, and the most potent (used to anesthetize elephants) carfentanyl or etorphine, but it's hard to get them.
4. Morphine for example is sold in various forms, take tablets for example, here you can get it from 20mg all the way up to 200mg. The reason is that patients using this drug for long term pain management (like cancer etc) will develop a tolerance. They (and all opioid naive people) will start with 20-40mg but after year of daily using, they organism will get used to it, and to achieve same effect they'd have to use 200-400mg (*the numbers are very rough estimate. I provide them to explain you, why some people die after taking 100mg, and others use 1000mg daily and are ok).
This is why tolerance is extremely important. If you have never taken opioids regularly (not counting the 20 times you done codeine or tramadol with your friends years back, what counts is a regular use, addiction and tolerance), then I'd estimate a 100mg tablet has 10-30% of killing you, a 200mg 40-50%, and few 200mg tablets (800-1000mg) is a 98-99%. If you add benzos on top, it makes it almost certain, like 99.9%.
5. You don't have to inject it (although a pill could be crushed, heated up, filtered, taken into syringe and shot)- bioavailability of an oral use is 30% for M, for oxy its 80-90%. But even that 30% is enough if you do massive OD, like 1000mg for a non-tolerant person. What IS important, is that those 100+ mg pills, are "CR" which is Controlled Release or slow release, and to maximize your chances, you should scrap the film off (with a nail or a knife etc) and then crush your tablet into small pieces, or even better to a powder. Take your benzos 15-30mim prior, and be aware they can knock the shit outta you before you realize. This is why 15-30min is best, 45-60min may be too early. Take it ideally on an empty stomach, use normal water to drink.
6. Mechanism of CTB is: first you get unconscious (your brain function is very slowed, like in those drunk ppl), and it should be somewhat pleasant feeling, I mean people use opioids and benzos to get drugged (I use them a lot, and the feeling esp. for the first time is amazing- all your problems go away and you feel like you are covered with a hot blanked of love- the distinct warm feeling from opioids). However, given the massive OD, your organism may react with vomiting or nausea, you will lose consciousness though. Quickly followed will be the substances action on breathing reflex area in the brain. It's an involuntary action which we continue to do while unconscious. Opio and benzo will slow it down / stop completely and you CTB while unconscious. You don't even know you just CTB'd. You don't feel panic, you don't feel gasping for air, no air hunger at all. The feeling ideally should be like you were given general anesthesia in a hospital, and never wake up.
*Important note: if you are getting your opioids from your street dealer or an unknown source (not a pharmacy), get it tested. They lace it with unknown shit, and if its fentanyl, well, better for you because it kills faster, but it could be other tranquilizers like xylazine, which you dont want. Also to boost up the price, they will tell there is 200mg, and in reality there could be 50. Which will definitely affect your CTB plan. So either get it from a trusted source/pharmacy, or get it tested.
Good Luck, I think opio+benzo method for someone naive (non-tolerant) is one of the best options, besides N. Very reliable, very clean and almost pleasant.
However OD statistics are so bad bc people dont know what theyre doing, they want to CTB on an OTC drug like acetaminophen, paracetamol or ibuprofen. Or some antidepressant or cardiac medication. They also dont know the dosage, just take a blister or a handful of pills. They don't use a combo that potentiates each other. Believe me, I read a lot of real stories / case studies, and many doctors chose to CTB with opio/benzo method. If you have other depressants, like alcohol, barbiturates (unlikely that you have them), GABAergics/anticolvulsants like pregabalin or gabapentin, clonidine, quetiapine etc, they can help as well. But the "must have" core is an opioid and a benzodiazepine.
Thank you very much for all these explanations. Indeed, I haven't any opio and no way for me to get one. Then, it seems to be difficult. Anyway, if I succeded to have one, with an OD at 1000mg for the opio, what would be the best quantity of benzo to take before ? The benzos I have is Bromazepam or Lexomil (I have a big amount of them). Thank you.
Romanticize
Member
- Aug 22, 2024
- 75
Lexomil is Bromazepam. Just a trade name.
It's roughly equivalent in potency to Diazepam. It's not the strongest benzo, but it will do the trick. I'd go for a dose of 100-200mg+ (remember, WITH big OD of opioid, it is essential).
In my country bromaz is sold in 3mg and 6mg pills, so safe side would be at least 50 pills.
Opioid is more important than benzodiazepine, so if i were to choose:
a) 1000mg morphine and 0 benzo
b) 200mg morphine and 1000mg Bromazepam
c) 800mg morphine and 100mg Bromazepam
I would choose option C, closely followed by A, then B is the worst for CTB (but it would still kill most of the takers). But if you have bromazepam, this 100mg or so of additional benzo, would likely make your opioid dose more deadly (and for example push the odds of CTB from 95% to 99.9%). I just wanted to emphasize, that in that cocktail, opioid is 90% and benzo is 10%, opioid dose is most important, but benzo potentiates it, and is very helpful in this situation as well, because it promotes sedation and sleep (unconsciosness).
Also: (important) it's hard to predict how one will behave under a massive benzo dose, some people (its rare, maybe 2-5%) got paradoxical reactions and instead of sedation->sleep, they got anxious and paranoid. This is why you should just lock yourself in a room/house, throw or put away the phone, because there is a very little chance (but more than 0) that under influence of benzo, you will call for help because your SI will kick in. Be prepared for that.
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