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physics

physics

Member
Jun 12, 2023
33
Read this before replying, I'm not against suicide neither assisted suicide. I'm just stating a fact which must not be ignored before considering assisted suicide.

What is assisted suicide?
Assisted suicide is suicide undertaken with the aid of another person.

I'll denote it by AS.

See the bigger picture here. If AS becomes legal in a place X, it'll become a goldmine for serial killers and psychopaths. The person in control of the other can simply force their victim write a letter claiming that they wanted to commit suicide and this person helped me, if the victim doesn't write they'll be tortured.

Let's say I kidnap a person Y. I can threaten him to write a letter saying "This is an assisted suicide, I've been depressed (with further elaboration). The person who assisted me wants to remain anonymous so don't investigate further. I'm giving away my wealth to this person."

And even if the case is investigated further, there will be no concrete evidence against me. I will literally have a handwritten note by the victim while I record him writing which will act as an extra alibi for me.

So, if AS is legalized then good luck to the police department.
No country has regulated or legislated AS, it's either by court ruling or physician assisted for people with terminal illness.

Here, I'm talking about regulated AS.
 
physics

physics

Member
Jun 12, 2023
33
Yeah totally legit if I total stranger with whom you have no connection dies in your home.

Also totally unsuspicious if it happens multiple times.
Doesn't need to be a stranger.
Doesn't need to be my home.
 
F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
7,681
I was under the impression AS was always done in a medical way...? is this not the case???

Yes- I believe so. I think where it could be relevant is- there have been concerns when people from the UK have accompanied their terminally ill loved ones to Swiss clinics that they COULD potentially be arrested on their return for assisting a suicide. I don't think this has happened but the threat is obviously terrible.

But no- I highly doubt it that it would become this unregulated- as in- 'Here officer- I have a note in their hand writting that they wanted me to chop their head off and bury them under the patio.' As far as I understand- in the countries where assisted suicide is legal- it is highly regulated. I believe you need 3 doctors to agree. I doubt all 3 would be corrupt... I very much doubt assisted suicide would be brought in without strict procedures. No one wants to be sued for murdering someone.
 
befree

befree

Time to do more enjoyable things _____Goodbye_____
Mar 22, 2022
2,588
For this reason, active VAD is only performed by registered VAD associations and in some countries by doctors (Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Spain, Canada, Colombia). Passive euthanasia is also legal in Norway, Finland and in many US states: Oregon, Montana, Vermont, Washington, California, Colorado, Hawaii, New Jersey, New Mexico and Maine and in most of the Australian states and in New Zealand.

The risk of abuse that you mention exists only in Sweden, where killing on demand by private individuals is allowed.

Further info about VAD:
 
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P

Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
8,893
The risk of abuse that you mention exists only in Sweden, where killing on demand by private individuals is allowed.
That's interesting. Does that only apply to Swedish nationals or to anyone? Given the case, If you found someone who'd be willing to kill you on demand.
 
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befree

befree

Time to do more enjoyable things _____Goodbye_____
Mar 22, 2022
2,588
That's interesting. Does that only apply to Swedish nationals or to anyone? Given the case, If you found someone who'd be willing to kill you on demand.
I´m not 100% sure, but according to my current knowledge this also applies to any other person who lives in Sweden, so not only citizen or permanent residents. (In the EU you can apply for permanent resident status after 5 years) I will do more research.

I know a case from Germany where a former member of this forum assisted another person with the SCUBA method. After the person died, he removed everything and left. So if there are no witnesses, VAD or killing on demand theoretically works in other countries as well.
 
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N

nessun_nome

Student
May 7, 2023
146
Read this before replying, I'm not against suicide neither assisted suicide. I'm just stating a fact which must not be ignored before considering assisted suicide.

What is assisted suicide?
Assisted suicide is suicide undertaken with the aid of another person.

I'll denote it by AS.

See the bigger picture here. If AS becomes legal in a place X, it'll become a goldmine for serial killers and psychopaths. The person in control of the other can simply force their victim write a letter claiming that they wanted to commit suicide and this person helped me, if the victim doesn't write they'll be tortured.

Let's say I kidnap a person Y. I can threaten him to write a letter saying "This is an assisted suicide, I've been depressed (with further elaboration). The person who assisted me wants to remain anonymous so don't investigate further. I'm giving away my wealth to this person."

And even if the case is investigated further, there will be no concrete evidence against me. I will literally have a handwritten note by the victim while I record him writing which will act as an extra alibi for me.

So, if AS is legalized then good luck to the police department.
No country has regulated or legislated AS, it's either by court ruling or physician assisted for people with terminal illness.

Here, I'm talking about regulated AS.

Whilst that would be a problem to an extent, your analysis is overly simplistic.

For a start there would normally be signs of a struggle. In most countries guns wouldn't be an option, so close quarters killing would be necessary.

Then they would be able to show relatively easily that the victim hadn't bought the materials used in the murder. Then how is this murderer going to get close enough to force the victim to write a note? How will screams be suppressed?

Even now Police will not automatically assume that a suicide note is genuine.
 
RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,084
Read this before replying, I'm not against suicide neither assisted suicide. I'm just stating a fact which must not be ignored before considering assisted suicide.

What is assisted suicide?
Assisted suicide is suicide undertaken with the aid of another person.

I'll denote it by AS.

See the bigger picture here. If AS becomes legal in a place X, it'll become a goldmine for serial killers and psychopaths. The person in control of the other can simply force their victim write a letter claiming that they wanted to commit suicide and this person helped me, if the victim doesn't write they'll be tortured.

Let's say I kidnap a person Y. I can threaten him to write a letter saying "This is an assisted suicide, I've been depressed (with further elaboration). The person who assisted me wants to remain anonymous so don't investigate further. I'm giving away my wealth to this person."

And even if the case is investigated further, there will be no concrete evidence against me. I will literally have a handwritten note by the victim while I record him writing which will act as an extra alibi for me.

So, if AS is legalized then good luck to the police department.
No country has regulated or legislated AS, it's either by court ruling or physician assisted for people with terminal illness.

Here, I'm talking about regulated AS.

Funny, because Switzerland legalized non-physician assisted suicide and that doesn't happen at all. Like, it literally doesn't happen. Maybe try to find evidence for a claim before you make it. The Swiss model should definitely be imported into other countries, as asking for help to end your life should be a human right and not a privilege or a medical process in which you need to prove you're suffering "enough" before you're allowed to die, which is quite frankly dehumanizing and insulting. The right to die should be treated as a basic human right and you shouldn't have to prove yourself to anyone, period.

In Switzerland it's illegal to assist suicide if there is a financial incentive. So again, if you give away your wealth to the person that assisted your suicide, there will be a police investigation for sure - without a doubt, making it extremely unlikely that someone will get away with that.

Also, autopsies exist. You can determine how a person died and if there was a struggle. If a person was killed by a third party, there will always be an investigation. Assisted suicide ususally refers to you taking your own life, not someone else literally killing you. That's even illegal in Switzerland. So yeah, your hypothethical scenario really doesn't work out in reality.

So let's sum it up. Non-physician assisted suicide is a good thing. And the laws in Switzerland work. Your scenario doesn't.
 
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ChronicallyCynical

ChronicallyCynical

Natural pessimist, born quitter.
Sep 9, 2023
114
I personally think we should avoid being too paranoid.

Serial killers already kill sans assisted suicide being legal. Think of the nurses and doctors who abuse their position. Some of the most famous serial killers exploited the tendency of older, prematurely born, and sick people to die, in order to cover up their murders. But those are in the minority, even if their counts are horrifically high. And assisted suicide is unlikely to make those rates jump up much. Around 5-6,000 people die by suicide each year in the U.K alone - or that's the estimate. We cannot even 100% assume that none of these "suicides" involved foul play. People potentially are already abusing the "suicide" card to kill off other people. This only allows for the murderers out there to cover their steps differently. It won't necessarily cover their steps better or increase the number of people who attempt such things, as of all the folk with antisocial personalities, only a small portion of them will become killers and get their power-trip from killing. Understand that where cold rationale can give you an edge - being a surgeon, lawyer, or CEO -, it is not strictly necessary for a person who gets off on the power to kill someone. There is power, after all in being a politician, lawyer, CEO, or even surgeon. Assisted suicide is unlikely to increase the proportion of people with ASPD who choose murder over more legal alternatives that are more sure to keep them out of prison.

Also, I think you're failing to understand how assisted suicide works in places where it is legal. It demands that the assistance in the suicide of another person isn't selfishly motivated. This renders serial killers attempting to mask their murders as assisting suicide as illegal. Not to mention, if they were to perform it on high numbers of people, it'd get suspicious. If suicide rates jumped too high, it would no doubt be suspicious.

It's also very unlikely to be legalised in many countries. I mean, there are still over twenty countries completely against abortion in all circumstances. UK and US are also both vehemently against suicide in general, and heck, I'd say they're not even that accepting of abortion.

And yet, you can already pull the plug on someone in a vegetative state... we're hardly that far from legalized assisted suicide. This is still ending a life. But it's not the same thing, admittedly, as killing off a person who has reasonably good enough brain function, even if their brain has suffered some or even extensive damage. I guess as long as they can communicate, they're not allowed to die, but if they can't, well, screw that, we don't care. Oh, and, you believe that an entire group of doctors could come together to plot the diabolical snuffing out of life pretending it's assisted suicide, I'm surprised you're not questioning whether or not doctors who insist a person is a vegetable are also not pretending so they can pull the plug on someone without it being deemed illegal.

Assisted dying tends to be merciful. If someone suspects something is wrong, and an autopsy reveals that the killing was somehow done more sadistically than it is meant to in such cases - chemicals and wounds (gun shot or otherwise) will leave a mark, generally - that person will be more likely to be caught eventually than get away with it forever.

Not just anyone would be able to perform this "assisted dying", as it is known in Switzerland (euthanasia is illegal). It would often take a doctor, possibly a team of medical folk, a couple of consultants, signatures or video evidence, and it would take time - and also cost something if you need to travel to get where it's offered. It'd be a lot of effort for a murderer to get the right tools, and right documents and be able to stage things perfectly. I would assume that's one of the reasons why more murderers don't attempt to conceal their killings as a suicide. (Even out of those who kill more coldly and "rationally".) Plus, as Rain and Sadness mentioned, you're not gonna make much money from assisting suicide, if that's what you are after. Someone's account suddenly gets drained of money before/after their death, that'll probably get treated as suspicious.

Could it happen? Absolutely. There are many ways to conceal a murder.

Would it happen? In a minority of cases, the longer it goes on, probably. That's the risk with just about everything. And it's about as impactful as wearing a short skirt, walking outside in the night, or talking to strangers in terms of how much it ups your chances. Murderers will murder, regardless of what methods are or aren't available to them. In most cases, that'll still be a way for suicidal folk to die with dignity, on their own terms without having to hide it.

When we legalize anything, there is always the risk of someone abusing the system. Keep guns legal, someone will shoot up a school. Make them illegal, they'll use a knife and go on a stabbing spree instead. Legalise drugs with potential medicinal properties, someone's gonna abuse it, but someone else might find a useful treatment in it they wouldn't have gotten elsewhere. Does this mean I'm pro or anti any of these things? Not necessarily, I just want to point out that it doesn't create that much of a dent. I'm more than happy that where I live guns aren't legal. At the same time, if an asshole wants to commit a crime, the materials available and the laws put in place won't matter much.

But that's just my admittedly quite convoluted and in places probably contradictory thoughts on this.
 
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wait.what

wait.what

no really, what?
Aug 14, 2020
979
It's already possible for a murderer to leave fake suicide notes with the bodies of their victims. That's why good detectives don't take things at face value. Any notes they might find ought to be considered in the context of all other information they have found.

Likewise, a suspect isn't automatically cleared because they have a medical license. The full scope of the evidence should be examined.
 
R

Resinn66

Student
Sep 5, 2021
118
Read this before replying, I'm not against suicide neither assisted suicide. I'm just stating a fact which must not be ignored before considering assisted suicide.

What is assisted suicide?
Assisted suicide is suicide undertaken with the aid of another person.

I'll denote it by AS.

See the bigger picture here. If AS becomes legal in a place X, it'll become a goldmine for serial killers and psychopaths. The person in control of the other can simply force their victim write a letter claiming that they wanted to commit suicide and this person helped me, if the victim doesn't write they'll be tortured.

Let's say I kidnap a person Y. I can threaten him to write a letter saying "This is an assisted suicide, I've been depressed (with further elaboration). The person who assisted me wants to remain anonymous so don't investigate further. I'm giving away my wealth to this person."

And even if the case is investigated further, there will be no concrete evidence against me. I will literally have a handwritten note by the victim while I record him writing which will act as an extra alibi for me.

So, if AS is legalized then good luck to the police department.
No country has regulated or legislated AS, it's either by court ruling or physician assisted for people with terminal illness.

Here, I'm talking about regulated AS.
it makes no sense bc AS has specific methods of doing it unless the serial killer is the doctior himself
 
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S

Scythe

Lost in a delusion
Sep 5, 2022
500
They can make it so that you need to go to the government to get a document passed before you help someone kill themselves. Also if a killer decides to force someone to write a note, I imagine they would have a lot more wounds/injuries than a typical suicide unless the killer has blackmail of the victim. Blackmail can be used to do a lot of things and people have already been using it to do probably a lot worse. Performing an autopsy on everyone who recieved assisted suicide can also help determine if they have been tortured before death. They can also make it so only disabled people without the ability to ctb by themselves can get someone to kill them. This will reduce the victim pool by a lot.
Currently, assisted suicide is also being used to criminize people who are present during a suicide but didn't help and people who are doing a partnered suicide. Which is really bad and it really shouldn't be that way. Assisted suicide prpbably already has a shorter prison sentence than murder anyways, so the killers should already be abusing the law but they are not.
(I can't find how long the jail sentences are for AS so i can't confirm)
They can make it so that you need to go to the government to get a document passed before you help someone kill themselves. Also if a killer decides to force someone to write a note, I imagine they would have a lot more wounds/injuries than a typical suicide unless the killer has blackmail of the victim. Blackmail can be used to do a lot of things and people have already been using it to do probably a lot worse. Performing an autopsy on everyone who recieved assisted suicide can also help determine if they have been tortured before death. They can also make it so only disabled people without the ability to ctb by themselves can get someone to kill them. This will reduce the victim pool by a lot.
Currently, assisted suicide is also being used to criminize people who are present during a suicide but didn't help and people who are doing a partnered suicide. Which is really bad and it really shouldn't be that way. Assisted suicide prpbably already has a shorter prison sentence than murder anyways, so the killers should already be abusing the law but they are not.
(I can't find how long the jail sentences are for AS so i can't confirm)
 
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ksp

ksp

Arcanist
Oct 1, 2022
435
this is what i find problematic with you statements:



your title can be offensive: you assume you are talking for everyone, even for terminally ill

- "Why assisted suicide should not be legal."

so: society should not make voluntary euthanasia legal ?!?


if you don't want to impose your views on others, your title should be this:

- "Why MY assisted suicide should not be legal."



See the bigger picture here. If AS becomes legal in a place X, it'll become a goldmine for serial killers and psychopaths. The person in control of the other can simply force their victim write a letter claiming that they wanted to commit suicide and this person helped me, if the victim doesn't write they'll be tortured.

voluntary euthanasia (or AS = assisted suicide, as you call it) should be illegal even for terminally ill, because:

- you think that terminally ill people are stupid? or unable to provide an uninfluenced consent?

- you think that voluntary euthanasia will become 'a goldmine for serial killers and psychopaths' ?!?

as in: killers don't have enough creativity to kill terminally ill people without voluntary euthanasia ?!?
so they need to go to all this trouble to kill them, instead of just shooting someone - fast and simple?

you still think that voluntarily euthanasia should be illegal?

ok, say you have cancer (or any terminal illness), and you'd be ok not to be allowed to end your life in peace, and with dignity, because the government doesn't trust your judgment?!?



i know you have some personal problems:
Crippling boredom. I just want to kill myself right now. Why isn't it easy :(
I am just bored of life in general.

and you're frustrated that voluntarily euthanasia is illegal ?!?

it's not easy because of statements like the ones you made in the original post of this thread




let's pretend that i am your government !

you ask me (your government) to allow you to receive assistance in your death - and make it legal

and i will respond to your request like this:

- i don't trust your judgment (physics) - because my judgement is better than yours
- i don't trust that you will not be able to provide unbiased consent of your intentions (i just don't trust you)
- i am forced to make you suffer, unbearably, because legalizing voluntary euthanasia will open the gate to for serial killers and psychopaths, and you are too stupid to take care of yourself
- i don't trust that you are bored, and i don't trust anything else you say, because i made all the laws
- i am sure that if you make an effort you will find ways to keep your mind occupied - for example: kittens!


now, considering that in our little hypothetical game, you are now a terminally ill person


how would you react to your own statements, in the original post ?!?

ps. i don't want you feel attacked, or become defensive - just try to analyze your op from a more balanced perspective; try to be objective
 
B

brokeandbroken

Warlock
Apr 18, 2023
796
Read this before replying, I'm not against suicide neither assisted suicide. I'm just stating a fact which must not be ignored before considering assisted suicide.

What is assisted suicide?
Assisted suicide is suicide undertaken with the aid of another person.

I'll denote it by AS.

See the bigger picture here. If AS becomes legal in a place X, it'll become a goldmine for serial killers and psychopaths. The person in control of the other can simply force their victim write a letter claiming that they wanted to commit suicide and this person helped me, if the victim doesn't write they'll be tortured.

Let's say I kidnap a person Y. I can threaten him to write a letter saying "This is an assisted suicide, I've been depressed (with further elaboration). The person who assisted me wants to remain anonymous so don't investigate further. I'm giving away my wealth to this person."

And even if the case is investigated further, there will be no concrete evidence against me. I will literally have a handwritten note by the victim while I record him writing which will act as an extra alibi for me.

So, if AS is legalized then good luck to the police department.
No country has regulated or legislated AS, it's either by court ruling or physician assisted for people with terminal illness.

Here, I'm talking about regulated AS.
This works but not really. For me the best way for it work is to do it under the confines of a program. Say a 1 year intensive program where they try to fix you. Lot of a therapy, etc... If you still aren't better at the 1 year point you can CTB. This removes a lot of the problems and takes away that. So no. I'm not sure how a psychopath benefits here. If anything psychopaths are going to get off on seeing someone suffer needlessly and endlessly. Take my situation. If a psychopath was architecting it they would be enjoying it immensely. So no.
 
passivethought121

passivethought121

Student
Jun 11, 2023
293
Lost me at serial killer. Also, I don't think suicide notes hold the same power as wills, so wealth doesn't transfer just like that. Also, I think this won't ever get legalized, even if AS under a physician becomes more widespread. Also, I think there's measures in place to determine what's a suicide and what's murder. I believe you might just be bitter that you cannot hire a hitman for yourself.
 
Madao

Madao

Certified MADAO (She/her)
Mar 30, 2023
35
See the bigger picture here. If AS becomes legal in a place X, it'll become a goldmine for serial killers and psychopaths. The person in control of the other can simply force their victim write a letter claiming that they wanted to commit suicide and this person helped me, if the victim doesn't write they'll be tortured.
The MOMENT that torture happens, is the MOMENT suicide is invalidated as the cause of death (assuming they're killed afterwards). So if I were in that position, I'd dare them to torture me if they're planning on getting away with my "suicide". I win either way.
 
tora

tora

lonelycity
Jun 11, 2023
191
I think if a serial killer was that desperate for someone to die they'd just do it themselves lol
 
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SolomonKado

SolomonKado

This is taking too long…
Jul 4, 2023
424
might as well take away concealed and open carry in the US too, but do that first so that the murderers, serial killers, and psychopaths don't have to struggle to get someone. Then you can take away AS.

You can only stop so little of the murders that happen behind closed doors anyways. Don't need to legalize AS for that to happen. I was working in a prison full of them…. We need to stop taking away rights and give each damn person a way to protect themselves instead.

I do not want some overdressed blow hard being the one who tells me what's good for me. I understand people want safety and security, but it's an illusion. We have bad people in all areas of our life. Even bad people in law enforcement destroying it for the good people who work there. I'm sure I want some corrupt cop, judge, lawyer, etc in charge of my freedom. Why we have good people rotting in prison because the legal system failed them usually because of someone corrupt.

People who think I should get or not get something should sit down and quit making decisions for me. Corrupt people run everything and I've seen it first hand.
 
BlazingBob

BlazingBob

I'm still here b/c of my dogs
Oct 28, 2021
550
How about just decriminalizing drugs so I can exit peacefully.
 
The Schizoid

The Schizoid

Specialist
Oct 24, 2023
306
I think when most people want assisted suicide to be legalised they're not talking about any random person being able to kill a person and say "they consented". I think they mean medically assisted death that's done via the appropriate channels.