Discussion What's up with the 'I never asked to be born' its seems like a dramatic but ultimately stupid argument, care to explain?

[przeciwwymiotne]

Don't want to offend anyone, you're all entitled to have your own reasons they're all personal it's impossible to evaluate them. You may as well not need any reason. I want to start a discussion about this particular argument.

To me it seems unnecessarily dramatic and kinda.... Egoistic. Do you expect someone would present the existence to you and then ask 'do you want that?'. Besides, having the consciousness to make choice is part of life as well. It's so dramatic, as if everyone else got told what to expect and got the choice. And somehow you were forced to be here. This whole concept is rooted in you existing in the first place. 'I never asked to be born' Does it imply a fundamental right to take ones life? Why not just say 'Everyone has a right to end their life thus imma do that'. Why the drama. It doesn't matter anyway. You're not special. I'm not special. It's not fair, oh well.

 

[beingfree]

It makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of ethical antinatalism and is a fair point to raise against people having children. Parents inflict existence on their children and this existence can be either good or bad - but it's likely to be more pain than pleasure, more sadness than happiness.
Anyway, we've all been born so the discussion is unproductive. I'm looking for solutions.

But I advice anyone against having children for their own good.

 

[jodes2]

I never asked to be born' Does it imply a fundamental right to take ones life? Why not just say 'Everyone has a right to end their life thus imma do that'.

I say both. I stick by my guns that I should be annoyed about the non-consent

 

[whatevs]

It is irrational since you were first an egg and a sperm cell that certainly wanted to create a human being but it sort of makes sense if you overlook that and act like you could think rationally about existing before the fact, which you obviously couldn't.

We're all made of lust for existence, that what defines living organisms. You can opt out at any time but what's clear as day is that at some point you wanted all of this.

 

[Onw9]

I don't find it dramatic or egoistic. A freedom of choice was taken from you and you can only request it back.

 

[Forever Sleep]

It would be an absolutely fair argument if there wasn't the obligation to keep living... (I imagine you would agree that there is a trememdous amount of pressure on people by their families and society at large to keep living. It's actually not so long ago that suicide was illegal in my country- UK- 1961 I believe the law changed to make it at least legal to take your OWN life- lol. Still- it is still prevented wherever possible.)

Let's imagine life as a career: Say you were made to do a job (that you utterly hated). You didn't apply for it, you weren't interviewed, you didn't sign a contract. You just mysteriously got it one day. Throughout this job, you are bullied, underpaid and your physical health starts to fail. You tell your bosses you want to resign but they tell you that they won't accept your resignation... You can't retire either- you'll need to do it till you die of natural causes. Plus, the easy means to resign has been severley restricted- you have no access to do it any way formerly. If you try to resign anyway, you find out it COULD result in diminished health to the point of becoming a vegetable and an involuntary stay in a mental institution. If anyone assists you in trying to resign, they could end up with a criminal record and jail time. Does that sound fair? Sounds like a dystopian nightmare to me.

Why is life so different to a career? Life is actually SO much worse in fact because most of the time with a career, you DID make a choice- maybe a bad choice. The only time you didn't is if you are a slave. So- does that mean slaves shouldn't complain about being enslaved in the first place?

It is irrational since you were first an egg and a sperm cell that certainly wanted to create a human being but it sort of makes sense if you overlook that and act like you could think rationally about existing before the fact, which you obviously couldn't.

We're all made of lust for existence, that what defines living organisms. You can opt out at any time but what's clear as day is that at some point you wanted all of this.

True- the sperm and egg belonged to my parents and their lust for life (and each other...)

Hmmm, yeah- the primal part of me for sure is just hyped I'm alive and does what it can to maintain that. The conscious part? No way. We want out. It's going to depend entirely on whether you believe we were conscious before birth and able to make such a momentous decision in the first place.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

All the unborn were never asked to be unborne too!

But seriously: Everyone has a right to end their life but only few have the strength to overcome their survival instinct.

 

[FuneralCry]

There is nothing dramatic about this and I don't really think that it's complicated, or is something to analyse, I just think that this statement is used to express someone's hatred for existence and their frustrations towards the fact that they are alive. It's not stupid. Some people never wanted to exist in the first place, and I feel that way as life is objectively a horrific concept, a tragic mistake that should never had been a thing at all. And that statement is used as a justification for suicide, as the fact that we never asked to be here means that existing isn't an obligation, so we have the right to exit this life for when the time is right for us.

 

[kipa]

I do agree with it being egocentric when used unprovoked, but it could be a sensible counter to entitled and controlling parents who request way more than they should just because they gave birth to you.

 

[SamTam33]

It would be an absolutely fair argument if there wasn't the obligation to keep living... (I imagine you would agree that there is a trememdous amount of pressure on people by their families and society at large to keep living. It's actually not so long ago that suicide was illegal in my country- UK- 1961 I believe the law changed to make it at least legal to take your OWN life- lol. Still- it is still prevented wherever possible.)

Let's imagine life as a career: Say you were made to do a job (that you utterly hated). You didn't apply for it, you weren't interviewed, you didn't sign a contract. You just mysteriously got it one day. Throughout this job, you are bullied, underpaid and your physical health starts to fail. You tell your bosses you want to resign but they tell you that they won't accept your resignation... You can't retire either- you'll need to do it till you die of natural causes. Plus, the easy means to resign has been severley restricted- you have no access to do it any way formerly. If you try to resign anyway, you find out it COULD result in diminished health to the point of becoming a vegetable and an involuntary stay in a mental institution. If anyone assists you in trying to resign, they could end up with a criminal record and jail time. Does that sound fair? Sounds like a dystopian nightmare to me.

Why is life so different to a career? Life is actually SO much worse in fact because most of the time with a career, you DID make a choice- maybe a bad choice. The only time you didn't is if you are a slave. So- does that mean slaves shouldn't complain about being enslaved in the first place?

True- the sperm and egg belonged to my parents and their lust for life (and each other...)

Hmmm, yeah- the primal part of me for sure is just hyped I'm alive and does what it can to maintain that. The conscious part? No way. We want out. It's going to depend entirely on whether you believe we were conscious before birth and able to make such a momentous decision in the first place.

Great analogies.

If the slave is caught trying to escape and says, I never asked to be a slave and want to be released, how is that 'unnecessarily dramatic and egoistic?'

It's a literal observation and a statement of fact.

Drama is what occurs by everyone else after we try to get released.

Petitioning the government to penalize and shutdown suicide fourms? Clamoring to throw people in jail? Locking them up in psych hospitals for simply saying the words? That's dramatic as fuck.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I was born with a terrible congenital condition that has caused indescribable suffering. If as a fetus I had been told I would get the "gift of life" but only with that condition, I would have taken a hard pass. But I didn't get the choice. People bring up this argument because life IS imposed on us without our say and if we don't wish to continue, that choice is made very difficult to enact and comes with so much judgment and stigma. Just because most people don't regret their births doesn't mean the minority's feelings aren't valid.

 

[przeciwwymiotne]

I was born with a terrible congenital condition that has caused indescribable suffering. If as a fetus I had been told I would get the "gift of life" but only with that condition, I would have taken a hard pass. But I didn't get the choice. People bring up this argument because life IS imposed on us without our say and if we don't wish to continue, that choice is made very difficult to enact and comes with so much judgment and stigma. Just because most people don't regret their births doesn't mean the minority's feelings aren't valid.

Thanks for explaining it so well to me

 

[actual_fox]

You don't have to take It as dramatic statement. It could just mean: "I have no control over my situation" It could be also read as complaint against determinism of life.

But tbh, my voice that reads It sounds like a teenager in me. That is problem with even valid complaints- we ignore them If they are dramatic/emotional.

 

[R. A.]

You know, I was on board with this argument in some way even before coming to this site, but suddenly I see how ridiculous it is, even if I'm still peeved about having been made to exist. What @whatevs says makes total sense. There was no "me" to make any decision about this matter before "I" existed, these was only primordial bio-stuff that indeed was acting in a manner desirous of creation. To imply that any current version of myself could have possibly exercised some judgement in the matter at that point in time, or even as a newborn, is profoundly ridiculous.

 

[SamTam33]

You know, I was on board with this argument in some way even before coming to this site, but suddenly I see how ridiculous it is, even if I'm still peeved about having been made to exist. What @whatevs says makes total sense. There was no "me" to make any decision about this matter before "I" existed, these was only primordial bio-stuff that indeed was acting in a manner desirous of creation. To imply that any current version of myself could have possibly exercised some judgement in the matter at that point in time, or even as a newborn, is profoundly ridiculous.

But that's not what the statement implies. It's not an implication at all. It's a fact.

No one was consulted. No would could've been consulted. Therefore we were all brought into this world through no will of our own.

The statement, "I didn't ask to be born," typically gets made when people can't comprehend someone not wanting to be here. Then we have to remind them that we're not here because we chose to be.

 

[R. A.]

But that's not what the statement implies. It's not an implication at all. It's a fact.

No one was consulted. No would could've been consulted. Therefore we were all brought into this world through no will of our own.

The statement, "I didn't ask to be born," typically gets made when people can't comprehend someone not wanting to be here. Then we have to remind them that we're not here because we chose to be.

I'm pretty tired but I guess it depends on what the point behind expressing this sentiment would be for the person who does so. I was just going from how I took OP to mean it, and the content I feel it holds. What is one trying to communicate when they say this, or similar things? That they should have a right to euthanasia? Sure, but I think that's (generally) true in any case because none should be made to live with unbearable suffering, and not because living was not "my choice" to begin with.

It just seems like a statement without any real substance to me. No one "chose" to be alive in the sense we usually imply to mean choice. Same as no one chooses whether or not they die. It's an inevitability, and consequently saying that dying is somehow unfair because it's "not my choice" is absurd. So to with bemoaning being born.

 

[SamTam33]

I'm pretty tired but I guess it depends on what the point behind expressing this sentiment would be for the person who does so. I was just going from how I took OP to mean it, and the content I feel it holds. What is one trying to communicate when they say this, or similar things? That they should have a right to euthanasia? Sure, but I think that's (generally) true in any case because none should be made to live with unbearable suffering, and not because living was not "my choice" to begin with.

It just seems like a statement without any real substance to me. No one "chose" to be alive in the sense we usually imply to mean choice. Same as no one chooses whether or not they die. It's an inevitability, and consequently saying that dying is somehow unfair because it's "not my choice" is absurd. So to with bemoaning being born.

I don't know how else to explain it. It's a factual observation like "the sun is hot."

We didn't have a choice coming here. The least we could have is a choice when to leave.

 

[Himalayan]

Don't want to offend anyone, you're all entitled to have your own reasons they're all personal it's impossible to evaluate them. You may as well not need any reason. I want to start a discussion about this particular argument.

To me it seems unnecessarily dramatic and kinda.... Egoistic. Do you expect someone would present the existence to you and then ask 'do you want that?'. Besides, having the consciousness to make choice is part of life as well. It's so dramatic, as if everyone else got told what to expect and got the choice. And somehow you were forced to be here. This whole concept is rooted in you existing in the first place. 'I never asked to be born' Does it imply a fundamental right to take ones life? Why not just say 'Everyone has a right to end their life thus imma do that'. Why the drama. It doesn't matter anyway. You're not special. I'm not special. It's not fair, oh well.

People say that instead of admitting the selfishness. We are selfish like everyone else, no point in pretending anything.

 

[DeadButDreaming]

Some people use it as a justification, in the knowledge their deaths will devastate their families. It makes sense to me. "I am ending what I didn't consent to." Surely people have that right.

However, I would argue that even if you did consent you have the right to take your life. You shold be permitted to do what you want to your own body.

 

[conflagration]

'I never asked to be born' is usually answer to people who wants you to be grateful for your existence, usually parents who thinks that you owe them for creating you.

 

[No longer suicidal😁]

I believe that if leaving this world via peaceful methods was an option and there was no such thing as a survival instinct, then one can say there is no harm to procreate. The individual in that case can leave this world easily without fear or anxiety. This's however not the case. The individual can't easily leave this life. Most of the accessible methods are not peaceful and then there is the survival instinct to fight.

 

[ryo the frog]

Im sure the reason why people throw that line around a lot is because they're being forced to stay, with how stigmatized and difficult suicide is. as in "I didn't get the choice the come so I should get the choice to leave"

 

[Disaster]

To me this argument is perfectly valid, although may be cringy when used in an "upset teen" mode. I know that we can just shrug it because "it has always been like this" - and because we can't ask someone who doesn't exist yet if they want to start to exist, the only choice for humans is either have kids anyway or consider seriously if it's ethical to ever reproduce. Humanity choosing to not reproduce is something that is unlikely to ever happen, so this is purely hypothetical.
"I never consented to existing" is a valid reason. "I actually enjoyed my life, but I no longer do" is also a valid reason. It may sound dramatic if people say that someones reasons aren't valid enough. Basically coercing people into living may lead to dramatic situations and words. But I guess this particular thing could be very non-dramatic too. Sort of "it wasn't me who activated this subscription, that's why I should be allowed to cancel it, and please don't let such unpleasant situations happen to other clients, thank you very much"

 

[HopelessSoul]

Do you expect someone would present the existence to you and then ask 'do you want that?

No, I would expect from any parent to make circumstances as good as possible before bringing another life here since we cant be asked for consent. The problem is most parents
dont even think about the potential suffering of their children.

Besides, having the consciousness to make choice is part of life as well

But the most important aspects of someones life are predetermined, and being able to make choices is going to have little to no influence on how that persons life turns out,
there are always exceptions, but if someone is born into poverty, chances are that person is going to remain poor no matter what choices are made through life.

'I never asked to be born' Does it imply a fundamental right to take ones life? Why not just say 'Everyone has a right to end their life thus imma do that'. Why the drama. It doesn't matter anyway. You're not special. I'm not special. It's not fair, oh well.

The fact that anyone is given the right to create life should automatically mean the person created has the right to end it imo.

 

[Unending]

When it comes down to it, you can call it a dramatic or stupid argument all you want but i personally have never really seen anyone defeat it with logic. I get that it can sound like a very emotional argument and it definitely is when someone emotional is making it but if you can only try to disprove it by thinking of the person who agrees with it rather than the argument itself, it's not really going to get you anywhere.

 

[AboutTom]

I think it makes a lot more sense when you consider that if you had never been born you woudn't know what pain is. But bow you're here so you do know. Even people who somehow like living and don't wanna die will die. Nobody wins by being born.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

On the contrary OP I can't believe more people don't say this? We are literally only here because of our parents and we have to die one day because of them which will probably be painful. It's just unnecessary the whole thing. Creating more mouths to feed, for what? The ego of parents? I don't like the experience of life, I didn't ask for it and my birth was needless. The fact I couldn't have been asked if I consent to life is the whole point-parents can't get consent so they shouldn't do it. They also know that many people do not enjoy life so there is a chance their child won't. The fact many people DO enjoy life is irrelevant when we are talking about non-existent people. There is no reason to be brought here, they don't miss life by not being born. No one can know about it until it happens and say "hey I want that experience".

 

[the_town_manager]

There's nothing even remotely dramatic about the statement. It is simply a statement of facts. It says you were forced here without your having any say in the matter and thus shouldn't be expected to carry out your term. Where's the drama? It only reads as dramatic because morons have stigmatized the statement as childish in the absence of having an actual response to it.

 

[Source Energy]

How do you know you never asked to be born? How do you know there wasn't something before birth, and your consciousness didn't choose the parents and circumstances of your birth? just like you choose a video game and its difficulty level? we don't know one way or another. This is why I never use these words. While it would have been great if my mother had aborted me, I do not blame my parents too much. I might have wanted to come. Just as I now want to go...

 

[SamTam33]

How do you know you never asked to be born? How do you know there wasn't something before birth, and your consciousness didn't choose the parents and circumstances of your birth just like you choose a video game and its difficulty level? we don't know one way or another. This is why I never use these words. While it would have been great from my now standpoint for my mother to abort me, I do not blame my parents too much. I might have wanted to come. Just as I now want to go...

Who would choose to be born into poverty or to choose parents who abuse them?

No one chooses to be born into war and famine. Parents make those choices for us.

It's on the parents. The people who conceived and birthed us.

They had a bird's eye view of the circumstances and chose to bring a life into them.

I don't see how you could look at a bruised and battered five year old and think, "Well buddy... It's possible you chose this life."