Discussion What would you do in a society that is tolerant of the discussion and act of suicide itself?

[TAW122]

This is something that I've thought about time and time again, and while this isn't something that will happen in our reality (nor anytime soon), it does make an interesting discussion to have. The topic is that suppose in a society or world where the discussion, act, and planning of suicide was not only:

1) No longer stigmatized or taboo (meaning that society itself doesn't shun it or treat others suspected of being suicidal, planning suicide, or even discussing it openly without being discriminated against, etc.). It would be similar to how abortion, women's rights, and LGBTQIA and similar once marginalized groups were once (historically) treated, but later, through decades of reform and change in society, no longer actively and openly discriminated against, and have a voice, platform, position, at least tolerated in the mainstream society and recognized. If individuals or groups discriminate against said 'suicidal' people, then it would be seen as a violation of said 'suicidal' person(s) civil rights and treated as such (the suicidal person being able to litigate, assert their rights, similar to how current anti-discrimination laws are in today's real society).

2) The State (the government and the powers that be, any authority figure, entities, or collective, third parties, etc.) no longer having the power to detain, infringe, intervene, or otherwise interfere with one's negative liberty rights (meaning that they cannot legally intervene if someone isn't committing a crime or an illegal act, and since suicide itself is NOT illegal they don't have the authority to intervene upon the individual as long as the individual is NOT acting unlawfully or breaking any laws). This means that one's civil liberties and freedoms will NOT be impinged upon for only merely expressing suicidal intentions, planning, or even attempting as long as they are NOT breaking any laws in society.

What I think will happen societally (with suicidal person:
So here is what I think would happen in society if those conditions were true. I would believe that people who are mindfully suicidal would be able to "genuinely" open up without the fear of incarceration, being stigmatized, being discredited, or even having their freedom taken away. If their peers or others will listen to them, they may even feel validated and may take the comfort of being validated (for some, that may just be enough to keep them going for a while longer than they would). Additionally, with the State losing it's authority over incarcerating and detaining said 'suicidal' person(s), then there is NO longer a mandate to report said person (unless the person is a clear and immediate danger, threat towards society itself), and also authorities (police, mental health professionals, judges, etc.) will NOT have the power to temporarily detain nor strip away said person's civil liberties as long as said person remains lawful and does NOT present a clear and immediate threat to society or the public at large. Another benefit is if both conditions are true, said person may decide to voluntarily get help when they otherwise wouldn't in our current real world society. This is because knowing that they no longer have ANY risk of having their freedom, civil liberties taken away (especially for having not harmed anyone, nor broken any laws, nor posed a threat to the general public, etc.) for talking about their intentions or doing so. Ironically, it may even save more lives than harm because people no longer face the threat of having their freedom taken away nor have their concerns dismissed or their position discredited merely because they are labelled 'suicidal' through a prejudiced stereotype! Alongside with the normalization and tolerance of 'suicide' and no longer being seen as taboo as it was for most of human history (including in present day society), I could see it being more freely discussed and while some may have more morbid jokes, there could be a fine line with some morbid jokes (partly as sarcasm and macabre humor but also for some, a coping mechanism that otherwise wouldn't have been accepted to begin with). Most importantly of all, even for those who are mindfully suicidal and would go through with it, at least they can say their goodbyes without risking intervention, betrayal, or having their plans ruined and freedom taken away from them!

What I would do in said society:
As for me personally, I would certainly be a bit more laid back and less anxious. I would certainly be able to talk about certain things and not have to walk on 'verbal eggshells' whenever I'm interacting with anyone. While I may/not seek help, I certainly would have been more open IRL if I knew that there was not stigma, social consequences, and unwanted scrutiny for admitting suicidality or even discussion of suicide itself. Furthermore, if the State curbed it's paternalistic powers to intervene against those suspected to be 'suicidal', planning to suicide, or even going to, I may have a different perspective on authority in general (I've grown up with not positive experiences with 'authority' but I digress...). I believe that in such a society, I may be able to more freely discuss such topics in real life if I know that: I will NOT be discriminated against merely for being labelled or deemed suicidal, AND that authorities (including the State, the government) would NOT infringe on my civil liberties or freedom for having done nothing unlawful nor pose any threat to the public and merely just stating my opinion and thoughts on suicide as well as expressing a desire for suicide. I know that in such a society, I would certainly not have to constantly be on guard and can speak freely, maybe even throw a macabre joke without raising unnecessary scrutiny, a red flag, or concern. I can also say my goodbyes in real life without risk of intervention, betrayal, or having my freedom taken away and do so without secrecy or taking unnecessary risks with DIY (again in secrecy).

Of course, in the world we live in, that is unfortunately not ever going to happen, let alone anytime in the foreseeable future, but it was something that I found to be interesting to discuss. However, as long as I live in a society and world in which the discussion of suicide, let alone the planning, and act (mid attempt or failed attempts) result in unwanted intervention, dismissal and discrediting of the suicidal's position and point of view, then I would never admit to being suicidal, and I would unfortunately, go through via DIY means in secrecy (while hoping and doing all I can to ensure I succeed, above all else). There would next to zero chance to even say a proper goodbye in real life, in today's world (at least not without risk)!

What do you think would happen in society if the taboo of suicide discussion, attempts, planning, and similar were no longer there as well as the paternalistic, overbearing overreach of the State was curtailed? Also, what would you do in such a society if you were able to freely discuss suicide (no longer seen as taboo and without the threat of one's freedom being temporarily taken away in the name of 'health, safety, and security')?

 

[hughmun9]

I think at the very least people would be comfortable talking about their real feelings with their loved ones. In the case that someone does decide to CTB, it would leave a lot less carnage behind. Friends and family would no longer potentially feel so much guilt as there would be more closure. The way things stand now, people have to be secretive, to go behind everyone's back to do it, for family and friends the event is a lot more shocking. It often 'comes out of nowhere'. In this society, at least everyone will expect it, and conversations will have been had.

In most cases I think it would dramatically reduce suicide rate. It would be nice if on top of it being acceptable, it would also be assisted. That you could go through a reasonable process without having to prove any ilness mental or otherwise. I do think you'd have to prove being of 'sound mind' but I think the bar should be clearable by the vast majority of people, and a peaceful CTB seen as a fundamental human right.

 

[Secro]

I think that would then be exploited again to make even more money.

 

[revivals]

i would probably start making novelty mugs and tshirts about ctb. imagine the profits...

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

If society would be that intolerant against suicide as you write, this forum would not exist. Have in mind that there are differences from country to country, but this is an international forum.

 

[AgnesTachyon]

id just ask to be euthanized.​

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's difficult to judge really. Just because it's more socially acceptable in this hypothesis, does that mean people still wouldn't grieve or, be deeply affected by it? Will any amount of social acceptance make a parent perfectly willing to say goodbye to their child?

The obvious answer would be- I'd already be dead. But then- perhaps not. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean our parents/ family will be thrilled that we participate in it. My Dad outright told me once, he'd accept it if I was gay but, he'd be disappointed. As it happens, I'm straight but- I thought- imagine hearing that if you were gay!

I doubt- even if assisted suicide was legal, my family would have an easy time accepting it was my choice to make. Of course, if we lived in a totally different culture. Where they genuinely celebrated death- that would be different. But, we don't. It would still come down to whether I'm prepared to hurt my Dad that much and (unfortunately for me,) I'm not.

 

[TAW122]

I think at the very least people would be comfortable talking about their real feelings with their loved ones. In the case that someone does decide to CTB, it would leave a lot less carnage behind. Friends and family would no longer potentially feel so much guilt as there would be more closure. The way things stand now, people have to be secretive, to go behind everyone's back to do it, for family and friends the event is a lot more shocking. It often 'comes out of nowhere'. In this society, at least everyone will expect it, and conversations will have been had.

In most cases I think it would dramatically reduce suicide rate. It would be nice if on top of it being acceptable, it would also be assisted. That you could go through a reasonable process without having to prove any ilness mental or otherwise. I do think you'd have to prove being of 'sound mind' but I think the bar should be clearable by the vast majority of people, and a peaceful CTB seen as a fundamental human right.

I think that is true, people who may have otherwise gone through with the attempt (either successfully or unsuccessfully), would hold off or even postpone it indefinitely if they knew there were no repercussions (social, legal, financial, etc.) from opening up, and as you mentioned, they may even not go through with it because they know it's always an option and more/less guaranteed. As for being assisted, I could see that being a thing, of course with serious guardrails and safeguards to ensure that people don't get abused or coerced into it. It would likely be less restrictive than current MAID or existing right to die programs that are present in our reality.

It's difficult to judge really. Just because it's more socially acceptable in this hypothesis, does that mean people still wouldn't grieve or, be deeply affected by it? Will any amount of social acceptance make a parent perfectly willing to say goodbye to their child?

The obvious answer would be- I'd already be dead. But then- perhaps not. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean our parents/ family will be thrilled that we participate in it. My Dad outright told me once, he'd accept it if I was gay but, he'd be disappointed. As it happens, I'm straight but- I thought- imagine hearing that if you were gay!

I doubt- even if assisted suicide was legal, my family would have an easy time accepting it was my choice to make. Of course, if we lived in a totally different culture. Where they genuinely celebrated death- that would be different. But, we don't. It would still come down to whether I'm prepared to hurt my Dad that much and (unfortunately for me,) I'm not.

I think people would still grieve and be deeply (emotionally and psychologically) affected by it, just like how breakups in relationships, resignation or termination of an employee, or any other relationship in humankind. Yes, while parents of children will continue to grieve or not truly accept it, at least the person suffering would have legal options (again with the curtailing of the State's paternalistic and custodial powers) to do so without interference. Societally, I would imagine there will be MORE of said person's peers being tolerant (even if not outright accepting or even supporting) of said person's decision. In other words, it would be more recognized similar to how existing social movements and bodily autonomy (abortion, women's rights, minorities' rights, LGBTQIA, etc.) are protected in the present day.

 

[Strangerdanger7]

This is something that I've thought about time and time again, and while this isn't something that will happen in our reality (nor anytime soon), it does make an interesting discussion to have. The topic is that suppose in a society or world where the discussion, act, and planning of suicide was not only:

1) No longer stigmatized or taboo (meaning that society itself doesn't shun it or treat others suspected of being suicidal, planning suicide, or even discussing it openly without being discriminated against, etc.). It would be similar to how abortion, women's rights, and LGBTQIA and similar once marginalized groups were once (historically) treated, but later, through decades of reform and change in society, no longer actively and openly discriminated against, and have a voice, platform, position, at least tolerated in the mainstream society and recognized. If individuals or groups discriminate against said 'suicidal' people, then it would be seen as a violation of said 'suicidal' person(s) civil rights and treated as such (the suicidal person being able to litigate, assert their rights, similar to how current anti-discrimination laws are in today's real society).

2) The State (the government and the powers that be, any authority figure, entities, or collective, third parties, etc.) no longer having the power to detain, infringe, intervene, or otherwise interfere with one's negative liberty rights (meaning that they cannot legally intervene if someone isn't committing a crime or an illegal act, and since suicide itself is NOT illegal they don't have the authority to intervene upon the individual as long as the individual is NOT acting unlawfully or breaking any laws). This means that one's civil liberties and freedoms will NOT be impinged upon for only merely expressing suicidal intentions, planning, or even attempting as long as they are NOT breaking any laws in society.

What I think will happen societally (with suicidal person:
So here is what I think would happen in society if those conditions were true. I would believe that people who are mindfully suicidal would be able to "genuinely" open up without the fear of incarceration, being stigmatized, being discredited, or even having their freedom taken away. If their peers or others will listen to them, they may even feel validated and may take the comfort of being validated (for some, that may just be enough to keep them going for a while longer than they would). Additionally, with the State losing it's authority over incarcerating and detaining said 'suicidal' person(s), then there is NO longer a mandate to report said person (unless the person is a clear and immediate danger, threat towards society itself), and also authorities (police, mental health professionals, judges, etc.) will NOT have the power to temporarily detain nor strip away said person's civil liberties as long as said person remains lawful and does NOT present a clear and immediate threat to society or the public at large. Another benefit is if both conditions are true, said person may decide to voluntarily get help when they otherwise wouldn't in our current real world society. This is because knowing that they no longer have ANY risk of having their freedom, civil liberties taken away (especially for having not harmed anyone, nor broken any laws, nor posed a threat to the general public, etc.) for talking about their intentions or doing so. Ironically, it may even save more lives than harm because people no longer face the threat of having their freedom taken away nor have their concerns dismissed or their position discredited merely because they are labelled 'suicidal' through a prejudiced stereotype! Alongside with the normalization and tolerance of 'suicide' and no longer being seen as taboo as it was for most of human history (including in present day society), I could see it being more freely discussed and while some may have more morbid jokes, there could be a fine line with some morbid jokes (partly as sarcasm and macabre humor but also for some, a coping mechanism that otherwise wouldn't have been accepted to begin with). Most importantly of all, even for those who are mindfully suicidal and would go through with it, at least they can say their goodbyes without risking intervention, betrayal, or having their plans ruined and freedom taken away from them!

What I would do in said society:
As for me personally, I would certainly be a bit more laid back and less anxious. I would certainly be able to talk about certain things and not have to walk on 'verbal eggshells' whenever I'm interacting with anyone. While I may/not seek help, I certainly would have been more open IRL if I knew that there was not stigma, social consequences, and unwanted scrutiny for admitting suicidality or even discussion of suicide itself. Furthermore, if the State curbed it's paternalistic powers to intervene against those suspected to be 'suicidal', planning to suicide, or even going to, I may have a different perspective on authority in general (I've grown up with not positive experiences with 'authority' but I digress...). I believe that in such a society, I may be able to more freely discuss such topics in real life if I know that: I will NOT be discriminated against merely for being labelled or deemed suicidal, AND that authorities (including the State, the government) would NOT infringe on my civil liberties or freedom for having done nothing unlawful nor pose any threat to the public and merely just stating my opinion and thoughts on suicide as well as expressing a desire for suicide. I know that in such a society, I would certainly not have to constantly be on guard and can speak freely, maybe even throw a macabre joke without raising unnecessary scrutiny, a red flag, or concern. I can also say my goodbyes in real life without risk of intervention, betrayal, or having my freedom taken away and do so without secrecy or taking unnecessary risks with DIY (again in secrecy).

Of course, in the world we live in, that is unfortunately not ever going to happen, let alone anytime in the foreseeable future, but it was something that I found to be interesting to discuss. However, as long as I live in a society and world in which the discussion of suicide, let alone the planning, and act (mid attempt or failed attempts) result in unwanted intervention, dismissal and discrediting of the suicidal's position and point of view, then I would never admit to being suicidal, and I would unfortunately, go through via DIY means in secrecy (while hoping and doing all I can to ensure I succeed, above all else). There would next to zero chance to even say a proper goodbye in real life, in today's world (at least not without risk)!

What do you think would happen in society if the taboo of suicide discussion, attempts, planning, and similar were no longer there as well as the paternalistic, overbearing overreach of the State was curtailed? Also, what would you do in such a society if you were able to freely discuss suicide (no longer seen as taboo and without the threat of one's freedom being temporarily taken away in the name of 'health, safety, and security')?

Police, mental health professionals, judges, and government laws are the problem regarding this topic. The money, revenue, and profit
It brings for them.
How they get to exploit people with disabilities in the process.
They only target the ones they think are weak and the ones they think are not going to fight back. There cowards in my option.
If we lived in a society where they had no choice in the matter and the choice was back with the people where it belongs.
We would be free so we would be happy.