Discussion What is your opinion on 10th September (world suicide prevention day.)?

[Dandelion's]

I mostly feel negative towards it because it causes for barriers nets and fencesand regulations to be put in place.

 

[_Gollum_]

The whole suicide prevention apparatus in general makes me angry.

 

[Forveleth]

I know it has genuinely helped some people, but it us just another reenforcement of the "alive at all costs" mantra around mental health. It is another day for anti-compassionate propaganda with meaningless catch phrases. Another day for people to wear a pin and pretend like they did something while, once again, glossing over the real solution of fixing why people want to kill themselves to begin.

 

[pepperfarmer]

I'm not against suicide prevention as a concept, but the current views on suicide are paternalistic and that inevitably seeps into all 'suicide prevention'. 'Suicide prevention', as it stands, currently exists as nothing more than a cheap way to collectively avoid addressing the real causes of suicide. Consent education, anti-bigotry campaigns, rehabilitation, restorative justice, preventing child abuse, and addressing poverty is what actual suicide prevention looks like. It's not profitable, though, so most 'suicide prevention' advocates will never call for these things.

edit: I think I was a bit too harsh on this. I'd clarify I mostly refer to corporate advocates, not individuals. Some grieving family member or naïve activist is largely benign.

 

[NoHorizon]

It's a day for companies to run seminars on having coffee check ins and for people to post hashtags on social media about opening up. And then the day after everyone will go back to treating suicidal people as a total inconvenience.

 

[LilGhost]

Suicide prevention day is just another for companies to act performative, for sure. But for me, it does at least put some light on ctb problem. Some people who want to ctb (note: some. Not all) want to do so because of external problems and can be helped and want to be helped. I could do so much more if i had people who cared. I do believe the "positivity" of the day shouldnt be forced on folks who dont want the prevention in any form. Also the prevention on its own shouldnt be so useless and cause so much pain. I also noticed (could be a survivor bias tho) nowadays it is more common to talk about how psych wards/forced ctb prevention can be harmful and how useless ctb prevention hotlines are, during that day, rather then old "stay alive despite everything".

But how performative companies during that day really bugs me, tbf those companies also perfom during pride month so its not the day itself a problem, rather capitalism giving people a fake feeling of activism so we can all clap our hands and call ourselves good boy/girl/they without changing the system on its root. Overall, the day has potential

 

[MissAbyss]

It makes me barf.

Nothing says "suicide prevention" quite like sitting down to a lavish dinner while people are dying by suicide, all to "raise awareness."

But don't worry! There'll be a heartfelt speech, a tasteful slideshow, and just enough networking to make sure everyone's suffering gets excellent exposure.

Apparently, suicide prevention has evolved.

You can now turn human despair into an elegant evening of fine dining, corporate sponsorships, polished speeches, and excellent PR.

Then everyone goes home with the warm, self-congratulatory feeling, comforted by the knowledge that they've "saved lives" without having to inconvenience themselves by actually doing it.

 

[stupid trans guy]

It just feels performative and unhelpful..

 

[Somewhat Suicidal]

It makes me barf.

Nothing says "suicide prevention" quite like sitting down to a lavish dinner while people are dying by suicide, all to "raise awareness."

But don't worry! There'll be a heartfelt speech, a tasteful slideshow, and just enough networking to make sure everyone's suffering gets excellent exposure.

Apparently, suicide prevention has evolved.

You can now turn human despair into an elegant evening of fine dining, corporate sponsorships, polished speeches, and excellent PR.

Then everyone goes home with the warm, self-congratulatory feeling, comforted by the knowledge that they've "saved lives" without having to inconvenience themselves by actually doing it.

This is so well written I have to say. Covers pretty much all aspects of it that I agree on but couldn't put into words so beautifully.

Only thing to maybe add: To me it feels incredibly performative and exactly like the usual normie narcissistic empathy many of us deal with every day, as one user here once so aptly put it and I don't have a better phrase than that either. He or she meant basically the constant need of normie people to 'save life' while being completely oblivious how that said life actually feels to the people who are caught in this terrible state of being day and night and also making 0 effort to improve said life...

I would still say it could be useful, but only if framed and conducted in a more understanding and empathetic manner and focused more towards the actual issues that cause suicidality than the act itself, which is just the end result of the prolonged suffering of said issues.

 

[webb&flow]

"We have to reconceptualize suicide" - Craig Bryan

Excerpts from an interesting article I happened upon from someone in the mental health field who actually seems to understand the complex nature of the problem of suicide - in fact, it is a "wicked problem" (meaning here one that is resistant to simple, conventional solutions)! I've just been...

sanctioned-suicide.net

My own take. Hating on anti-suicide activists is far more attractive than actually digging into the weeds of what causes pain in the world, and what can be done about it, and what the most effective ways to actually meet human needs are—as well as the critical questions of what humans truly need in the first place.

Instead of trying to dismiss them categorically, or characterize them as "evil", why don't you make real methodological critiques of their intended suggestions?, and ask the real questions that are needed to actually understand suicide as a phenomenon both individually and generally—from the psychological to the sociological.

And lastly. You could argue the cardinal sin of a lot of cliché anti-suicide activism is focusing on the thrill of expression over changing material conditions. How can we be sure you and me are not committing the same sin?

Are we really doing anything good by focusing intensely on anti-suicide activists, and not only characterizing them as evil, but by actually blaming them for worse conditions for suicidal people?

We should recognize any flaws, understand any misunderstanding, give a scientifically rigorous alternate explanation rooted in sound methodology, and internalize that as our viewpoint, and know how to dissect such matters. We should recognize it, understand it, be able to explain how it works, and then work towards fostering better more frank discussion of suicide and pains that factor into it.

The response to inefficient methodologies of bettering human life should be to one-up them, to satisfy that disgust and rage felt within with challenge, not just condemnation. Understand, condemn, and challenge; give a better model and paradigm that can actually give explanatory power to guide real effect to avoid mismanaging any energy expended in any efforts.

And not all "anti-suicide" campaigns are necessarily evil. The only charge that is useful to make is how materially effective they are. That should be our principal focus: what human beings actually need, and the ways they can actually have these things.

It can be exhilirating to say "yeahhh!!! fuck 'em all!!" but we have to be extra careful we do not trap ourself in a hate-fap cycle. It's fun for sure, and can help remind us we DO have value in being able to understand pain of people who have felt similar things to us. But we should balance that with proportion and ratio. Nothing too much.

From,
An individual not too happy with the current state of public perceptions of suicidal ideation, even among public health "awareness" campaigns.

I totally get they have real issues and in some cases can have unintended side effects. But keep in mind that not every single person participating in them is some kind of cultist who wants to increase the suffering of suicidal people. They may not understand some things, but I guarantee you, there ARE people who SINCERELY misunderstand things. One can have good intentions and still misunderstand something. What matters is how open one is to listening to people—and we should not assume that "XYZ group is 100% deafened communicationwise", that is a defeatist heuristic, that practically amounts to political quietism.

If you don't think their way of helping people works, then let us focus on making actual critiques of methodologies alongside propositions with better evidence (many of which already exist and have scientific support and organizational specification behind them), instead of just dunking without a compelling alternative. We don't have to 100% fix all our pain in our own life, we just have to make a better argument and speak to things that really can help people better.

Let us be practical, not performative.

 

[h4ppyhypoxia]

a day where people can pretend to care about us and place the responsibility on the individual to "stay alive" with statements of "you matter" "people will miss you" "you are loved" and nothing that challenges the systems which abandon us and treat us poorly to the point where life isnt worth living, i hate this idea that we must stay alive no matter what, i voted useful to an extent because it provides people who may be struggling and at risk of ending their life in an acute crisis with resources so they can consider an alternative, but i hate this notion that we must stay alive at all cost, i also hate the framing of suicidal people as helpless victims who fell ill to depression and the illness made them die, no, this is MY choice, i decided to do this, my mental illness does contribute, but it was my decision

also i hate the fact that message is basically "open up! talk about it! id rather hear about it than see you in a casket!" once again, the burden is on the person who is struggling to "speak up about it" rather than the "empathetic listeners" to offer the safe space in the first place, and its all bs, most people get exhausted and drained by you when you open up about your mental illness, because theres no "quick fix" they might listen sometimes but when your sadness costs them too much mental energy to hear they wont be a friend anymore, they wont *REALLY* care if you live or die, so long as they dont have to hear from you again

even then "talking about it" might relieve some mental pressure, you might connect with others, but what does it actually do to solve your problems? not much.. but its better than nothing, and even having someone who you trust to talk about it is a privilege which many suicidal people simply do not have

mentally ill people are tolerated when were convenient, we are the ones expected to "get better!" and "open up!" and its all up to us to seek help!! of course the individual is responsible to an extent for seeking help if theyd like to, but what good are broken systems and conditional friends? why is the focus on ME and how I should act in response to my suicidal feelings, rather than the living conditions which product these in the first place? performative bs

 

[pepperfarmer]

"We have to reconceptualize suicide" - Craig Bryan

Excerpts from an interesting article I happened upon from someone in the mental health field who actually seems to understand the complex nature of the problem of suicide - in fact, it is a "wicked problem" (meaning here one that is resistant to simple, conventional solutions)! I've just been...

sanctioned-suicide.net

My own take. Hating on anti-suicide activists is far more attractive than actually digging into the weeds of what causes pain in the world, and what can be done about it, and what the most effective ways to actually meet human needs are—as well as the critical questions of what humans truly need in the first place.

Instead of trying to dismiss them categorically, or characterize them as "evil", why don't you make real methodological critiques of their intended suggestions?, and ask the real questions that are needed to actually understand suicide as a phenomenon both individually and generally—from the psychological to the sociological.

And lastly. You could argue the cardinal sin of a lot of cliché anti-suicide activism is focusing on the thrill of expression over changing material conditions. How can we be sure you and me are not committing the same sin?

Are we really doing anything good by focusing intensely on anti-suicide activists, and not only characterizing them as evil, but by actually blaming them for worse conditions for suicidal people?

We should recognize any flaws, understand any misunderstanding, give a scientifically rigorous alternate explanation rooted in sound methodology, and internalize that as our viewpoint, and know how to dissect such matters. We should recognize it, understand it, be able to explain how it works, and then work towards fostering better more frank discussion of suicide and pains that factor into it.

The response to inefficient methodologies of bettering human life should be to one-up them, to satisfy that disgust and rage felt within with challenge, not just condemnation. Understand, condemn, and challenge; give a better model and paradigm that can actually give explanatory power to guide real effect to avoid mismanaging any energy expended in any efforts.

And not all "anti-suicide" campaigns are necessarily evil. The only charge that is useful to make is how materially effective they are. That should be our principal focus: what human beings actually need, and the ways they can actually have these things.

It can be exhilirating to say "yeahhh!!! fuck 'em all!!" but we have to be extra careful we do not trap ourself in a hate-fap cycle. It's fun for sure, and can help remind us we DO have value in being able to understand pain of people who have felt similar things to us. But we should balance that with proportion and ratio. Nothing too much.

From,
An individual not too happy with the current state of public perceptions of suicidal ideation, even among public health "awareness" campaigns.

I totally get they have real issues and in some cases can have unintended side effects. But keep in mind that not every single person participating in them is some kind of cultist who wants to increase the suffering of suicidal people. They may not understand some things, but I guarantee you, there ARE people who SINCERELY misunderstand things. One can have good intentions and still misunderstand something. What matters is how open one is to listening to people—and we should not assume that "XYZ group is 100% deafened communicationwise", that is a defeatist heuristic, that practically amounts to political quietism.

If you don't think their way of helping people works, then let us focus on making actual critiques of methodologies alongside propositions with better evidence (many of which already exist and have scientific support and organizational specification behind them), instead of just dunking without a compelling alternative. We don't have to 100% fix all our pain in our own life, we just have to make a better argument and speak to things that really can help people better.

Let us be practical, not performative.

You raise a very good point, I've unfortunately been guilty of what you're describing and, after reading this, realize my mistake. It is unfortunate that we can easily fall into the same pitfalls as the people we criticize because we fail to empathize, and since we can't trace their steps from their perspective, we can't truly diagnose the problem.

That being said, I maintain my disdain towards corporate advocates. A grieving friend or mother might not be aware of the inefficiencies in their approach, but NGOs, companies and governments certainly do.

 

[Drogon]

"You aren't alone"

 

[Le temps perdu]

on suicide prevention day, I can't help feeling that the messaging ultimately just reinforces the idea that "staying alive is all that matters," and I think that kind of rhetoric can create a lot of problems.

I wish there were more discussion about what the underlying factors contributing to suicide actually are, rather than simply repeating slogans like "seek help" or "you are not alone."

from what I understand, many people have already tried seeking help. But if the environment and the circumstances that are contributing to their distress don't change, they may just keep getting triggered over and over again. In that sense, it doesn't really address the root of the problem.

 

[webb&flow]

also i hate the fact that message is basically "open up! talk about it! id rather hear about it than see you in a casket!" once again, the burden is on the person who is struggling to "speak up about it" rather than the "empathetic listeners" to offer the safe space in the first place, and its all bs, most people get exhausted and drained by you when you open up about your mental illness

Suicide is inseparable from its social components; there needs to be focus on teaching people how to be a listener that makes a person feel seen and heard and not patronized nor "talked down to".

People have to give suicidal people SPACE. That applies to one-on-one conversations too. It means culturally normalizing frank expression of pain. Everyone from all walks and qualities of life has experience with deep pain and despair at some point in their lives; and it should not be considered beyond anyone to use their life-given noggin to listen for just a little bit to what someone may be going through.

There is also the real cultural component of how we view pain and pleasure too. A concerning number of people have views on life that emphasize personal pleasure over interpersonal cohesion. If someone views pleasure as the ultimate good, they may be tempted to view listening to someone else's pain (not always pleasurable) as genuinely morally sinful to themself. That is an opinion, one subject to change; I dare wager it can be turned as easily as it was made—such a vulgar opinion is often formed with no thought at all, and therefore can be reformed with just a little more thought to it. Regardless of how clueless some people are, we must never deny the inherent mutability present in such cultural matters where perceptions, values, and norms are never set in stone, nor can they 100% resist the natural influence that intense will has upon the human brain and ear.

Our own feelings and views on pain and pleasure do have niches in the social fabric. At least we are not alone in wanting to be heard, seen, and treated in a manner that is genuinely accompanying, rather than alienating.

even then "talking about it" might relieve some mental pressure, you might connect with others, but what does it actually do to solve your problems? not much.. but its better than nothing, and even having someone who you trust to talk about it is a privilege which many suicidal people simply do not have

for me personally even if my problems are not 100% "solved" from talking about it, being able to just say my piece even in a visceral manner, frees up just so much within me.

that feeling of belonging and capability of openness is an intense experience with real ramifications for human neurology; and it is sincerely one of the things that keeps me going; that is, being able to speak frankly and openly about pain of differing kinds—all of the human kind—including my own, too. and to be able to share and relate among that. to be able to reach parts of people that we do not engage with tenderly enough. that we do not engage enough with dignity and respect, with subjectivity, and careful diligence; and perhaps even at times compassion, too.

mentally ill people are tolerated when were convenient, we are the ones expected to "get better!" and "open up!" and its all up to us to seek help!! of course the individual is responsible to an extent for seeking help if theyd like to, but what good are broken systems and conditional friends? why is the focus on ME and how I should act in response to my suicidal feelings, rather than the living conditions which product these in the first place? performative bs

the person speaking to a person who is suicidal must position themself not as a guardian angel but a comrade. they must resist the urge to be seduced by a sense of superiority; for such an impulse of self-superiority utterly numbs the brain and heart. and they must be willing to genuinely share and engage in a two-way exchange of values and experiences; they must be open to letting another person's reality present itself before them, and to take that with grace.



system qualities and relationship nonreciprocities must be carefully analyzed and understood by anyone in conversation with their fellow suicidal person.

And all able and sapient people should recognize the very same matters that push down the suicidal oppress their very own souls too—and in fact the suicidal may be of actual benefit to them by acting potentially as a canary in the coal mine to the very same issues that threaten people of all kinds. The person who listens to the suicidal should recognize that the same pains and struggles they experience are ones that truly could be materially possible for them to experience too. Therefore, the same level of interest one pays to one's own matters is justifiably applicable to ones that one's own flesh and feels and heartcells and neurons are also vulnerable to as well—even if one worships one's own supposed invulnerability. We are all human. We all have vulnerabilities. We all feel pain; grievous pains, in real ways in life. We should seek to share not just joy in our good moments but pain in our bad moments; for both places are part of the cycles of feeling that our lives undergo, and it is in both locations (not merely just one) that we deserve genuine company that emphasizes the humanity and shared vulnerability that our nature implies.

but what good are broken systems and conditional friends? why is the focus on ME and how I should act in response to my suicidal feelings, rather than the living conditions which product these in the first place? performative bs

I want to emphasize this: loneliness and the feeling that no one can listen to one's own issues is a serious factor that intensifies suicidality and the very feelings of inescapability and social disconnect that play fundamental role in driving suicide.

The scientific models on suicide of Thomas Joiner and countless others do not emphasize belonging for nothing. Seneca did not write this for nothing:

Letters on Ethics To Lucilius, Letter 78
Margaret Graver translation (with some edits)

Letter 78
From Seneca to Lucilius
Greetings

¹So you are troubled with frequent sinus infections and with the bouts of fever that go with them when they are chronic and long lasting. I am sorry to hear it, and all the more as I have experienced this sort of illness. At first I thought little of it; being young, I was able to put up with hardships and stubborn in dealing with ill health. Eventually I succumbed, and became so emaciated that my entire being seemed to be dripping out through my sinuses.

²More than once I entertained an impulse to end my life; but my father was elderly, and that held me back. For although I thought that I could die bravely, I also thought that he, who was so kind to me, could not bravely bear the loss. So I commanded myself to live; for there are times when just continuing to live is a courageous action.

³I will tell you what consoled me then. But first I will say this: these very things in which I found rest had had the force of medicine. Honorable consolations are curative: what raises up the mind also benefits the body. It was my studies that saved me; it was philosophy that I had to thank when I rose from my bed and when I regained my strength. I owe it my life, and life is the least of what I owe to it.

⁴Friends contributed greatly to my recovery: they encouraged me, sat up nights, talked to me, and so brought me comfort. O most excellent Lucilius, nothing strengthens the affected as much as caring friends; nothing does as much to take away his thoughts of death, his fear. I felt that as long as they remained alive, I was not really dying. I mean, I kept thinking that I would live on, not among them but through them. It seemed to me I was not yielding up my spirit so much as passing it on.

These things gave me the will to help myself and to endure every torment.

—Seneca, Letters on Ethics To Lucilius, Letter 78

The solution should not be "have a will to live"—that is as useless as "stop feeling pain" or "be happy". The intervention should be to mutually figure out things that have real ability to slowly cultivate such a desire to continue engaging in life; to actually help a person get the things and enter the circumstances that will soothe their soul and inspire possibility through real possession of means of enacting change in their own life. THOSE are the kinds of solutions we should be guiding people towards. Such methods of changing one's own conditions, or such methods of cultivating the capacity for such change as well; combined with a respect for the desire to want change within time near to one's life, closer to the near present rather than near future—and such nearer more proximal solutions may not fix everything 100%, but they are real and have real effect, and are often better at inspiring will to live and quelling desires for death than almost anything else one can conjure up to say. To affect someone we ought ENGAGE them; not just any way, but in a proper, careful manner ^^.

also i hate the fact that message is basically "open up! talk about it! id rather hear about it than see you in a casket!"

I hate that too. Let us include the speaker themself in this statement too, let them be a part of the equation as well. They should be more willing to engage without disdain people who are suicidal, into the depths of their pain, desperation, and confusion, and have a greatsouled preference for embracing the pain of others and preferring this over pressuring another soul to resort to distant, selfbottling, isolation, or worse. (That is, fucking death. Death by suicide.)

If someone doesn't want to see you in a casket, then let them do what would actually accomplish that goal. Let all people know that effective suicide prevention does not seek to jerryrig cheap clichés and trite gambits into conversation with suicidal people, and that telling someone you can talk to them and actually engaging in that proper healing conversation are two distinct matters indeed.

I do believe that whenever we are suicidal that—even if not all people are competent when talking with us in our vulnerable moments—that it might not be pragmatic to exclude all people who utter the phrase "you can talk to me", for I don't want to deny there really are people who mean it and are competent on top or that—I just want to make this note clear as a footnote to my arguments; I don't want to (implicitly) advocate heuristics I do not wish to propose, is all ^^.

most people get exhausted and drained by you when you open up about your mental illness, because theres no "quick fix"

People should realize that giving comfort to someone in pain is an intrinsically valuable and good thing. That many suicidal people who receive competent engagement from people well versed in humanity—empathetic beyond mere posturing, who listen and respect, who receive and give actual meaningful understanding—may not explicitly express "I feel better", yet STILL genuinely appreciate the interaction, and have positive affect slowly accrue from not only pondering what was said in emptyspaced moments over time, but from the comfort of having that connection still having pulse in their life, that cadence of association and access that goes beyond promises and words, that is felt rather than claimed. If people only knew that this gives meaning to both lives present, comfort and love to both lives present. That society needs this. We need openness. We need visceral embrace. And suicidal people give this chance for radical openness, allowing the other side to bring in their own experiences of excruciating pain and despairs as well. That is a connection of mutual aid. That is what all members of all societies need more of. ESPECIALLY societies that are seduced by this ridiculous lie: that we are better off alone. We are not. We are not better when we turn away the people who come to us face to face, carrying their own pain and humanity honestly to our very own ears; to refuse to engage humanely with this person, to fearfully engage distance, to fear our own pain and the pain of others—is this not an insane act of cowardice? There is moral burden on people to care for the welfare of those they have connection with. Nonsuicidals should assist the suicidal by listening without judgment, avoiding trite clichés, and engaging as a respectful peer, and caring for root causes, and not being distracted by symptoms or intense words.

We should care about the reasons that people feel suicidal, and seek to directly yet carefully caringly address those; without trying to appeal to imagined post-death scenarios. The person is alive right there in front of you, so do not let the mind wander too much from that, and let not the imagination get too hasty with crafting visions of possible death—such thoughts are intrusive, and of little use to the wellbeing of the suicidal person before us—let us embrace their humanity, and engage with them with this perception in mind: "This is someone who is trying to figure things out with what they know and currently are aware of, all under immense pressure. I would not be doing so hot if I was in their shoes either. It is possible to listen to this person's life on their own terms and reach shared understanding in some real ways. Intense conversation on intense matters such as this is seriously worth having, for it directly engages matters key to human life: how to reduce pain and live a life that is worth living, even when seeking understanding and possibility is not always immediately gratifying". ♥

 

[h4ppyhypoxia]

Suicide is inseparable from its social components; there needs to be focus on teaching people how to be a listener that makes a person feel seen and heard and not patronized nor "talked down to".

People have to give suicidal people SPACE. That applies to one-on-one conversations too. It means culturally normalizing frank expression of pain. Everyone from all walks and qualities of life has experience with deep pain and despair at some point in their lives; and it should not be considered beyond anyone to use their life-given noggin to listen for just a little bit to what someone may be going through.

There is also the real cultural component of how we view pain and pleasure too. A concerning number of people have views on life that emphasize personal pleasure over interpersonal cohesion. If someone views pleasure as the ultimate good, they may be tempted to view listening to someone else's pain (not always pleasurable) as genuinely morally sinful to themself. That is an opinion, one subject to change; I dare wager it can be turned as easily as it was made—such a vulgar opinion is often formed with no thought at all, and therefore can be reformed with just a little more thought to it. Regardless of how clueless some people are, we must never deny the inherent mutability present in such cultural matters where perceptions, values, and norms are never set in stone, nor can they 100% resist the natural influence that intense will has upon the human brain and ear.

Our own feelings and views on pain and pleasure do have niches in the social fabric. At least we are not alone in wanting to be heard, seen, and treated in a manner that is genuinely accompanying, rather than alienating.


for me personally even if my problems are not 100% "solved" from talking about it, being able to just say my piece even in a visceral manner, frees up just so much within me.

that feeling of belonging and capability of openness is an intense experience with real ramifications for human neurology; and it is sincerely one of the things that keeps me going; that is, being able to speak frankly and openly about pain of differing kinds—all of the human kind—including my own, too. and to be able to share and relate among that. to be able to reach parts of people that we do not engage with tenderly enough. that we do not engage enough with dignity and respect, with subjectivity, and careful diligence; and perhaps even at times compassion, too.


the person speaking to a person who is suicidal must position themself not as a guardian angel but a comrade. they must resist the urge to be seduced by a sense of superiority; for such an impulse of self-superiority utterly numbs the brain and heart. and they must be willing to genuinely share and engage in a two-way exchange of values and experiences; they must be open to letting another person's reality present itself before them, and to take that with grace.



system qualities and relationship nonreciprocities must be carefully analyzed and understood by anyone in conversation with their fellow suicidal person.

And all able and sapient people should recognize the very same matters that push down the suicidal oppress their very own souls too—and in fact the suicidal may be of actual benefit to them by acting potentially as a canary in the coal mine to the very same issues that threaten people of all kinds. The person who listens to the suicidal should recognize that the same pains and struggles they experience are ones that truly could be materially possible for them to experience too. Therefore, the same level of interest one pays to one's own matters is justifiably applicable to ones that one's own flesh and feels and heartcells and neurons are also vulnerable to as well—even if one worships one's own supposed invulnerability. We are all human. We all have vulnerabilities. We all feel pain; grievous pains, in real ways in life. We should seek to share not just joy in our good moments but pain in our bad moments; for both places are part of the cycles of feeling that our lives undergo, and it is in both locations (not merely just one) that we deserve genuine company that emphasizes the humanity and shared vulnerability that our nature implies.


I want to emphasize this: loneliness and the feeling that no one can listen to one's own issues is a serious factor that intensifies suicidality and the very feelings of inescapability and social disconnect that play fundamental role in driving suicide.

The scientific models on suicide of Thomas Joiner and countless others do not emphasize belonging for nothing. Seneca did not write this for nothing:


The solution should not be "have a will to live"—that is as useless as "stop feeling pain" or "be happy". The intervention should be to mutually figure out things that have real ability to slowly cultivate such a desire to continue engaging in life; to actually help a person get the things and enter the circumstances that will soothe their soul and inspire possibility through real possession of means of enacting change in their own life. THOSE are the kinds of solutions we should be guiding people towards. Such methods of changing one's own conditions, or such methods of cultivating the capacity for such change as well; combined with a respect for the desire to want change within time near to one's life, closer to the near present rather than near future—and such nearer more proximal solutions may not fix everything 100%, but they are real and have real effect, and are often better at inspiring will to live and quelling desires for death than almost anything else one can conjure up to say. To affect someone we ought ENGAGE them; not just any way, but in a proper, careful manner ^^.


I hate that too. Let us include the speaker themself in this statement too, let them be a part of the equation as well. They should be more willing to engage without disdain people who are suicidal, into the depths of their pain, desperation, and confusion, and have a greatsouled preference for embracing the pain of others and preferring this over pressuring another soul to resort to distant, selfbottling, isolation, or worse. (That is, fucking death. Death by suicide.)

If someone doesn't want to see you in a casket, then let them do what would actually accomplish that goal. Let all people know that effective suicide prevention does not seek to jerryrig cheap clichés and trite gambits into conversation with suicidal people, and that telling someone you can talk to them and actually engaging in that proper healing conversation are two distinct matters indeed.

I do believe that whenever we are suicidal that—even if not all people are competent when talking with us in our vulnerable moments—that it might not be pragmatic to exclude all people who utter the phrase "you can talk to me", for I don't want to deny there really are people who mean it and are competent on top or that—I just want to make this note clear as a footnote to my arguments; I don't want to (implicitly) advocate heuristics I do not wish to propose, is all ^^.


People should realize that giving comfort to someone in pain is an intrinsically valuable and good thing. That many suicidal people who receive competent engagement from people well versed in humanity—empathetic beyond mere posturing, who listen and respect, who receive and give actual meaningful understanding—may not explicitly express "I feel better", yet STILL genuinely appreciate the interaction, and have positive affect slowly accrue from not only pondering what was said in emptyspaced moments over time, but from the comfort of having that connection still having pulse in their life, that cadence of association and access that goes beyond promises and words, that is felt rather than claimed. If people only knew that this gives meaning to both lives present, comfort and love to both lives present. That society needs this. We need openness. We need visceral embrace. And suicidal people give this chance for radical openness, allowing the other side to bring in their own experiences of excruciating pain and despairs as well. That is a connection of mutual aid. That is what all members of all societies need more of. ESPECIALLY societies that are seduced by this ridiculous lie: that we are better off alone. We are not. We are not better when we turn away the people who come to us face to face, carrying their own pain and humanity honestly to our very own ears; to refuse to engage humanely with this person, to fearfully engage distance, to fear our own pain and the pain of others—is this not an insane act of cowardice? There is moral burden on people to care for the welfare of those they have connection with. Nonsuicidals should assist the suicidal by listening without judgment, avoiding trite clichés, and engaging as a respectful peer, and caring for root causes, and not being distracted by symptoms or intense words.

We should care about the reasons that people feel suicidal, and seek to directly yet carefully caringly address those; without trying to appeal to imagined post-death scenarios. The person is alive right there in front of you, so do not let the mind wander too much from that, and let not the imagination get too hasty with crafting visions of possible death—such thoughts are intrusive, and of little use to the wellbeing of the suicidal person before us—let us embrace their humanity, and engage with them with this perception in mind: "This is someone who is trying to figure things out with what they know and currently are aware of, all under immense pressure. I would not be doing so hot if I was in their shoes either. It is possible to listen to this person's life on their own terms and reach shared understanding in some real ways. Intense conversation on intense matters such as this is seriously worth having, for it directly engages matters key to human life: how to reduce pain and live a life that is worth living, even when seeking understanding and possibility is not always immediately gratifying". ♥

thank you for the long and thoughtful reply, also im a fan of jack staubers work so it was nice to see that linked, i really agree with what you are saying about openness, this is why most of my friends are people who do actually struggle, we have listened to eachother and bonded over some shared mental issues, the issue is that suicide is experienced as something that is "extreme" (reasonably so) but to the point where it is "out of friends hands" and instead should be something that is stricly between a suicidal person and a therapist (but suicide is such a big decision and id rather talk to a friend about this than a stranger), or even that suicidal person would need hospitalisation (taking them away from what they know increases feelings of isolation), i have opened up in the past (mildly) about my suicidal ideation to a friend, in reality i just wanted to talk about what led me to wanting to end my life, but i was met with "no please dont, life is worth living" id rather talk about what i feel makes my life NOT worth living and unload that than simply be persuaded to stay with cliche phrases

the issue is that a lot of people simply arent willing to let you unload, because a lot of people do not have the capacity to engage, its like they need to protect themselves from your emotions, theyre seen as draining their mental energy, it is a heavy topic, so of course it requires a lot of energy, but i hate the fact that most people are only willing to "show up" for you if you have a problem that is "easy" enough for them, one of the most heartbreaking things to me is seeing people go through their first breakup (an undeniably painful experience) and how everyone shows up for them, they let them talk through it, they sit with them while they cry, but when i have an episode that is "too much" and i have to sit through my suffering alone

i think a problem with this is the emphasis on rationality in western philosophical tradition, people have the impression that humans are primarily rational creatures, and rationality "trumps" emotion, so when you come to somebody with a problem that isnt easily fixed, they dont know what to do with it, its so hard to find somebody who is willing to just sit with you through it, without trying to fix, just being there, i dont want solutions, i just want presence, but that is such a rare thing to find

i mean just look at the way that people respond to physical health vs mental health, if i was having a heart attack on the floor, you would be considered an evil person to just walk away from me and let me die without even attempting cpr or anything to rescue me, but if im actively suicidal, and you know my mental issues are killing me, yet you walk away, you are seen as "doing the right thing" or "protecting yourself" and the suicidal persons idea that they are a burden is reinforced by that

there are people that are willing to listen and be genuine, but from my experience, these are rare, those people are very very beneifical and absolutely can help, but theyre so rare to come by, the problem i stated isnt that listening is fake, just that the problem is that most people are too scared and drained to listen properly, we need more of the "comerades" you described, but i dont think that alone would solve it, it has to be mixed with societal improvements which make existing easier, THAT is genuine suicide prevention, and it is often not the core message of september 10th

 

[SoulCage]

"it gives more visibility to the problems of suicidal people."

More like.. it gives visibility to the problems of people who are now "left behind" due to losing someone to suicide.

 

[h4ppyhypoxia]

thank you for the long and thoughtful reply, also im a fan of jack staubers work so it was nice to see that linked, i really agree with what you are saying about openness, this is why most of my friends are people who do actually struggle, we have listened to eachother and bonded over some shared mental issues, the issue is that suicide is experienced as something that is "extreme" (reasonably so) but to the point where it is "out of friends hands" and instead should be something that is stricly between a suicidal person and a therapist (but suicide is such a big decision and id rather talk to a friend about this than a stranger), or even that suicidal person would need hospitalisation (taking them away from what they know increases feelings of isolation), i have opened up in the past (mildly) about my suicidal ideation to a friend, in reality i just wanted to talk about what led me to wanting to end my life, but i was met with "no please dont, life is worth living" id rather talk about what i feel makes my life NOT worth living and unload that than simply be persuaded to stay with cliche phrases

the issue is that a lot of people simply arent willing to let you unload, because a lot of people do not have the capacity to engage, its like they need to protect themselves from your emotions, theyre seen as draining their mental energy, it is a heavy topic, so of course it requires a lot of energy, but i hate the fact that most people are only willing to "show up" for you if you have a problem that is "easy" enough for them, one of the most heartbreaking things to me is seeing people go through their first breakup (an undeniably painful experience) and how everyone shows up for them, they let them talk through it, they sit with them while they cry, but when i have an episode that is "too much" and i have to sit through my suffering alone

i think a problem with this is the emphasis on rationality in western philosophical tradition, people have the impression that humans are primarily rational creatures, and rationality "trumps" emotion, so when you come to somebody with a problem that isnt easily fixed, they dont know what to do with it, its so hard to find somebody who is willing to just sit with you through it, without trying to fix, just being there, i dont want solutions, i just want presence, but that is such a rare thing to find

i mean just look at the way that people respond to physical health vs mental health, if i was having a heart attack on the floor, you would be considered an evil person to just walk away from me and let me die without even attempting cpr or anything to rescue me, but if im actively suicidal, and you know my mental issues are killing me, yet you walk away, you are seen as "doing the right thing" or "protecting yourself" and the suicidal persons idea that they are a burden is reinforced by that

there are people that are willing to listen and be genuine, but from my experience, these are rare, those people are very very beneifical and absolutely can help, but theyre so rare to come by, the problem i stated isnt that listening is fake, just that the problem is that most people are too scared and drained to listen properly, we need more of the "comerades" you described, but i dont think that alone would solve it, it has to be mixed with societal improvements which make existing easier, THAT is genuine suicide prevention, and it is often not the core message of september 10th

as well id like to add to this that i think the reason why its hard to find "good listeners" is because we live in a very individualistic society, were told to put our needs first, and then tend to others (no matter what really) that is why it is so hard, suicide prevention comes off as performative because a lot of the times it is "i will try for you, until it inconveniences me, then i cant help anymore, sorry" this is why we need to focus on the societal issues which lead to suicide, we know that being lonely is one of the high risk factors for suicide, but of course people are going to be alone in a society which tells you that you must look after yourself before anyone else, when the average person says "talk to me if you feel this way" they really mean "ill listen to this until it is too much for me, then you will have to find another way to deal, sorry" we need more genuine listeners, but they are rare in this hyper individualistic culture

 

[PeaceSeeker83]

It's essentially more virtue signalling and can do more harm than good really. It breeds resentment in a lot of people.

 

[FuneralCry]

It's criminal, all prevention does is cause way more torture in this existence where there is no limit as to how much agony one can feel, it's a crime how painless methods like Nembutal are made inaccessible by humans who want to do all they can to make it so others are tortured for as long as possible in this existence that is just waiting to die anyway. Prevention is just prolonging and causing way more suffering, there's just so much evil in how these people make this existence into a prison and just want others to suffer all for the sake of it, it truly is an abomination to exist in this horrific prison anti-suicide world.

 

[itsgone2]

They're well intentioned but wrong

Wish I could do it that day

 

[NonEssential]

Funny, I didn't think that day was so close, especially since I have wishes to leave next week.

 

[bananaolympus]

but what they do? Seems more like #dontkillurself #dontreallycare #justfollowingthetrend in a side note i do feel september is the gloomiest month

 

[Pluto]

 

[pk@2001]

Just for some virtue signalling, performative speeches and just to put every other helpful measure under the shelves and let's return again with the same old shit next year.

 

[iwantangels]

I honestly despise the ignorance around suicide more than anything, it makes me fucking sick. I feel like my rights are constantly violated by the amount of effort it takes to obtain a method that doesn't cause you to suffer. Nobody actually cares if you suffer in life, just that you don't kill yourself, because everyone has been groomed to believe that living no matter what, regardless of how much suffering you're going through, is correct.

I am a fully coherent consenting adult, I should have a right to make the decision to kill myself without suffering, especially considering that it has been thought out for a very long time. I agree that impulsive suicide should be prevented along with suicide influenced by issues that can be resolved, but if your issue has been lifelong and chronic, why the hell should that person just be expected to endure it forever? I have done absolutely everything to try and have a life I could enjoy living, seriously. I went through all the treatments you could possibly imagine, but people just cannot accept that chronic incurable mental illness is a thing that exists. Ignorant, ignorant fucking people, don't understand that they are torturing a lot of people.

It just makes me so upset and I just wish people weren't so stupid. Half of my problems are because of stupid people, growing up I have been tortured by stupid people, suicide prevention day is for stupid people to tell you not to kill yourself because they're too ignorant to actually figure out how to help you. Rant over.

 

[Somewhat Suicidal]

"We have to reconceptualize suicide" - Craig Bryan

Excerpts from an interesting article I happened upon from someone in the mental health field who actually seems to understand the complex nature of the problem of suicide - in fact, it is a "wicked problem" (meaning here one that is resistant to simple, conventional solutions)! I've just been...

sanctioned-suicide.net

My own take. Hating on anti-suicide activists is far more attractive than actually digging into the weeds of what causes pain in the world, and what can be done about it, and what the most effective ways to actually meet human needs are—as well as the critical questions of what humans truly need in the first place.

Instead of trying to dismiss them categorically, or characterize them as "evil", why don't you make real methodological critiques of their intended suggestions?, and ask the real questions that are needed to actually understand suicide as a phenomenon both individually and generally—from the psychological to the sociological.

And lastly. You could argue the cardinal sin of a lot of cliché anti-suicide activism is focusing on the thrill of expression over changing material conditions. How can we be sure you and me are not committing the same sin?

Are we really doing anything good by focusing intensely on anti-suicide activists, and not only characterizing them as evil, but by actually blaming them for worse conditions for suicidal people?

We should recognize any flaws, understand any misunderstanding, give a scientifically rigorous alternate explanation rooted in sound methodology, and internalize that as our viewpoint, and know how to dissect such matters. We should recognize it, understand it, be able to explain how it works, and then work towards fostering better more frank discussion of suicide and pains that factor into it.

The response to inefficient methodologies of bettering human life should be to one-up them, to satisfy that disgust and rage felt within with challenge, not just condemnation. Understand, condemn, and challenge; give a better model and paradigm that can actually give explanatory power to guide real effect to avoid mismanaging any energy expended in any efforts.

And not all "anti-suicide" campaigns are necessarily evil. The only charge that is useful to make is how materially effective they are. That should be our principal focus: what human beings actually need, and the ways they can actually have these things.

It can be exhilirating to say "yeahhh!!! fuck 'em all!!" but we have to be extra careful we do not trap ourself in a hate-fap cycle. It's fun for sure, and can help remind us we DO have value in being able to understand pain of people who have felt similar things to us. But we should balance that with proportion and ratio. Nothing too much.

From,
An individual not too happy with the current state of public perceptions of suicidal ideation, even among public health "awareness" campaigns.

I totally get they have real issues and in some cases can have unintended side effects. But keep in mind that not every single person participating in them is some kind of cultist who wants to increase the suffering of suicidal people. They may not understand some things, but I guarantee you, there ARE people who SINCERELY misunderstand things. One can have good intentions and still misunderstand something. What matters is how open one is to listening to people—and we should not assume that "XYZ group is 100% deafened communicationwise", that is a defeatist heuristic, that practically amounts to political quietism.

If you don't think their way of helping people works, then let us focus on making actual critiques of methodologies alongside propositions with better evidence (many of which already exist and have scientific support and organizational specification behind them), instead of just dunking without a compelling alternative. We don't have to 100% fix all our pain in our own life, we just have to make a better argument and speak to things that really can help people better.

Let us be practical, not performative.

I get your point and I tried and try to be not purely hateful and dismissive of them in general. I've definitely been too one sided at times regarding this and realize that might have been one of my mistakes. But my past experiences with pretty much everyone who hasn't gone through severe depression or suicidality themselves is that they actually can't comprehend or understand how dreadful existence can get and always try to cheer me up, telling me everything will be alright and stuff will be working out if I just do X or Y when they clearly can't know if it ever will and the probability overall seems low.

I still tried and try to explain to them in every way I can think of but that also doesn't seem to do the trick in my experience. My impression is most of the case for them it just can't be what's not allowed to be (stigmatised to be). It has nothing to do with evil or bad intentions on their side, but rather with the inability to comprehend the situation from a psychological perspective. Like most psychological states it is not understood well or at all by those who aren't or weren't in the same boat. That conincides with my own experiences when trying to and failing at understanding psychological states of others that I myself might never have been in. The difference is that I am not presuming to know what's the best course of action for them.

I also tried to explain what life circumstances and recurring patterns in life make me as depressive and sometimes suicidal and what regarding both these circumstances and the general public's dealing with people like me would need to change in oder to maybe make things better for us. Again, most of society just doesn't really care or understand from what I've seen. Some of the circumstances are not changeable by single individuals anyway, some not even by society as a whole, at least not realistically in the world we live in or without other individuals giving up their free will in turn (for example, no one can make it so that depressive people suddenly become attractive friends or partners for other certain individuals or make themselves like them for what they are).

Constantly fighting against the depression itself, the feeling of general uselessness and senselessness of every single act I'm supposedly required to do in order to feel better (but only for 1 hour or 1 day) while that exhausts me both mentally and physically without any actual factual positive change ever coming from it in the end already drains me to a point that I lack the energy to also fight for being understood by people who – from my perspective – are not willing to understand but rather just are set on the notion of keeping me alive for the sake of itself and without condition – while at the same time not really willing to engage with the whole subject because it makes them uncomfortable themselves. I understand it's uncomfortable hearing depressive thoughts day in and out, but if they are not willing to do so they shouldn't be so presumptuous to decide whether it's worth for me to live on no matter how terribly bad existence is for me.

Especially when considering I have been seeking help for depression for a decade now and being proactive to better my life circumstances in a way that gives me joy for the majority of that time and getting at best okay and at worst unsatisfying (the majority of time) results short- and medium-term and unsatisfying and straight up bad results long-term from it while the underlying conditions and circumstances for those results and how I feel stay the same or even deteriorate at the same time it seems the activism and help offered is really failing spectacularly at addressing or having any influence whatsoever concerning the root of these problems.

also i hate the fact that message is basically "open up! talk about it! id rather hear about it than see you in a casket!" once again, the burden is on the person who is struggling to "speak up about it" rather than the "empathetic listeners" to offer the safe space in the first place, and its all bs, most people get exhausted and drained by you when you open up about your mental illness, because theres no "quick fix" they might listen sometimes but when your sadness costs them too much mental energy to hear they wont be a friend anymore, they wont *REALLY* care if you live or die, so long as they dont have to hear from you again

even then "talking about it" might relieve some mental pressure, you might connect with others, but what does it actually do to solve your problems? not much.. but its better than nothing, and even having someone who you trust to talk about it is a privilege which many suicidal people simply do not have

mentally ill people are tolerated when were convenient, we are the ones expected to "get better!" and "open up!" and its all up to us to seek help!! of course the individual is responsible to an extent for seeking help if theyd like to, but what good are broken systems and conditional friends? why is the focus on ME and how I should act in response to my suicidal feelings, rather than the living conditions which product these in the first place? performative bs

This sums my experience up pretty well in my opinion... most poeple simply don't want to listen or really help because it's to exhausting and draining on themselves while still being hypocritical enough to say they do. But every time I try to talk about what really makes me feel terrible and shakes me to my core I'm dismissed in one or the other way. I lost the majority of my friends, every (potential or actual) romantic partner and most of my aquaintances due to being real. The only ones I still have are the blatant exceptions to the rule (person), struggling themselves (another person) or the ones with whom I haven't given in to the urge of sharing what I really feel at all (not even a handful of persons).

So while I agree it shouldn't be a one-sided subject it sadly kind of is in my opinion. Especially the kind of actions taken due to suicide prevention day feel like the ones most misguided of all because the entities doing their fancy charity events or whatever are the ones who would have the easiest time to get a grip on what is actually going on with the people they are supposedly advocating for and their needs. This is why I voted "it gives more visibility to the problems of suicidal people." which sadly doesn't really help them in a meaningful way tho.

 

[Somewhat Suicidal]

Suicide is inseparable from its social components; there needs to be focus on teaching people how to be a listener that makes a person feel seen and heard and not patronized nor "talked down to".

People have to give suicidal people SPACE. That applies to one-on-one conversations too. It means culturally normalizing frank expression of pain. Everyone from all walks and qualities of life has experience with deep pain and despair at some point in their lives; and it should not be considered beyond anyone to use their life-given noggin to listen for just a little bit to what someone may be going through.

There is also the real cultural component of how we view pain and pleasure too. A concerning number of people have views on life that emphasize personal pleasure over interpersonal cohesion. If someone views pleasure as the ultimate good, they may be tempted to view listening to someone else's pain (not always pleasurable) as genuinely morally sinful to themself. That is an opinion, one subject to change; I dare wager it can be turned as easily as it was made—such a vulgar opinion is often formed with no thought at all, and therefore can be reformed with just a little more thought to it. Regardless of how clueless some people are, we must never deny the inherent mutability present in such cultural matters where perceptions, values, and norms are never set in stone, nor can they 100% resist the natural influence that intense will has upon the human brain and ear.

Our own feelings and views on pain and pleasure do have niches in the social fabric. At least we are not alone in wanting to be heard, seen, and treated in a manner that is genuinely accompanying, rather than alienating.


for me personally even if my problems are not 100% "solved" from talking about it, being able to just say my piece even in a visceral manner, frees up just so much within me.

that feeling of belonging and capability of openness is an intense experience with real ramifications for human neurology; and it is sincerely one of the things that keeps me going; that is, being able to speak frankly and openly about pain of differing kinds—all of the human kind—including my own, too. and to be able to share and relate among that. to be able to reach parts of people that we do not engage with tenderly enough. that we do not engage enough with dignity and respect, with subjectivity, and careful diligence; and perhaps even at times compassion, too.


the person speaking to a person who is suicidal must position themself not as a guardian angel but a comrade. they must resist the urge to be seduced by a sense of superiority; for such an impulse of self-superiority utterly numbs the brain and heart. and they must be willing to genuinely share and engage in a two-way exchange of values and experiences; they must be open to letting another person's reality present itself before them, and to take that with grace.



system qualities and relationship nonreciprocities must be carefully analyzed and understood by anyone in conversation with their fellow suicidal person.

And all able and sapient people should recognize the very same matters that push down the suicidal oppress their very own souls too—and in fact the suicidal may be of actual benefit to them by acting potentially as a canary in the coal mine to the very same issues that threaten people of all kinds. The person who listens to the suicidal should recognize that the same pains and struggles they experience are ones that truly could be materially possible for them to experience too. Therefore, the same level of interest one pays to one's own matters is justifiably applicable to ones that one's own flesh and feels and heartcells and neurons are also vulnerable to as well—even if one worships one's own supposed invulnerability. We are all human. We all have vulnerabilities. We all feel pain; grievous pains, in real ways in life. We should seek to share not just joy in our good moments but pain in our bad moments; for both places are part of the cycles of feeling that our lives undergo, and it is in both locations (not merely just one) that we deserve genuine company that emphasizes the humanity and shared vulnerability that our nature implies.


I want to emphasize this: loneliness and the feeling that no one can listen to one's own issues is a serious factor that intensifies suicidality and the very feelings of inescapability and social disconnect that play fundamental role in driving suicide.

The scientific models on suicide of Thomas Joiner and countless others do not emphasize belonging for nothing. Seneca did not write this for nothing:


The solution should not be "have a will to live"—that is as useless as "stop feeling pain" or "be happy". The intervention should be to mutually figure out things that have real ability to slowly cultivate such a desire to continue engaging in life; to actually help a person get the things and enter the circumstances that will soothe their soul and inspire possibility through real possession of means of enacting change in their own life. THOSE are the kinds of solutions we should be guiding people towards. Such methods of changing one's own conditions, or such methods of cultivating the capacity for such change as well; combined with a respect for the desire to want change within time near to one's life, closer to the near present rather than near future—and such nearer more proximal solutions may not fix everything 100%, but they are real and have real effect, and are often better at inspiring will to live and quelling desires for death than almost anything else one can conjure up to say. To affect someone we ought ENGAGE them; not just any way, but in a proper, careful manner ^^.


I hate that too. Let us include the speaker themself in this statement too, let them be a part of the equation as well. They should be more willing to engage without disdain people who are suicidal, into the depths of their pain, desperation, and confusion, and have a greatsouled preference for embracing the pain of others and preferring this over pressuring another soul to resort to distant, selfbottling, isolation, or worse. (That is, fucking death. Death by suicide.)

If someone doesn't want to see you in a casket, then let them do what would actually accomplish that goal. Let all people know that effective suicide prevention does not seek to jerryrig cheap clichés and trite gambits into conversation with suicidal people, and that telling someone you can talk to them and actually engaging in that proper healing conversation are two distinct matters indeed.

I do believe that whenever we are suicidal that—even if not all people are competent when talking with us in our vulnerable moments—that it might not be pragmatic to exclude all people who utter the phrase "you can talk to me", for I don't want to deny there really are people who mean it and are competent on top or that—I just want to make this note clear as a footnote to my arguments; I don't want to (implicitly) advocate heuristics I do not wish to propose, is all ^^.


People should realize that giving comfort to someone in pain is an intrinsically valuable and good thing. That many suicidal people who receive competent engagement from people well versed in humanity—empathetic beyond mere posturing, who listen and respect, who receive and give actual meaningful understanding—may not explicitly express "I feel better", yet STILL genuinely appreciate the interaction, and have positive affect slowly accrue from not only pondering what was said in emptyspaced moments over time, but from the comfort of having that connection still having pulse in their life, that cadence of association and access that goes beyond promises and words, that is felt rather than claimed. If people only knew that this gives meaning to both lives present, comfort and love to both lives present. That society needs this. We need openness. We need visceral embrace. And suicidal people give this chance for radical openness, allowing the other side to bring in their own experiences of excruciating pain and despairs as well. That is a connection of mutual aid. That is what all members of all societies need more of. ESPECIALLY societies that are seduced by this ridiculous lie: that we are better off alone. We are not. We are not better when we turn away the people who come to us face to face, carrying their own pain and humanity honestly to our very own ears; to refuse to engage humanely with this person, to fearfully engage distance, to fear our own pain and the pain of others—is this not an insane act of cowardice? There is moral burden on people to care for the welfare of those they have connection with. Nonsuicidals should assist the suicidal by listening without judgment, avoiding trite clichés, and engaging as a respectful peer, and caring for root causes, and not being distracted by symptoms or intense words.

We should care about the reasons that people feel suicidal, and seek to directly yet carefully caringly address those; without trying to appeal to imagined post-death scenarios. The person is alive right there in front of you, so do not let the mind wander too much from that, and let not the imagination get too hasty with crafting visions of possible death—such thoughts are intrusive, and of little use to the wellbeing of the suicidal person before us—let us embrace their humanity, and engage with them with this perception in mind: "This is someone who is trying to figure things out with what they know and currently are aware of, all under immense pressure. I would not be doing so hot if I was in their shoes either. It is possible to listen to this person's life on their own terms and reach shared understanding in some real ways. Intense conversation on intense matters such as this is seriously worth having, for it directly engages matters key to human life: how to reduce pain and live a life that is worth living, even when seeking understanding and possibility is not always immediately gratifying". ♥

This is so, so well written, I can't get over it. I would give you 10 or 100 upvotes for it if I could as I was never able to phrase things so eloquently myself, much less in English.
You're pretty much pointing out how society would need to be and act like in order to be actually helpful with suicidality and prevent a lot of it in the first place.

Despite this will most likely and sadly never reach the people who should be concerned with it or society as a whole – or maybe it will, if you have ways to bring this to attention of some of those outside our little sasu bubble here – I have to say:

Thank you!

thank you for the long and thoughtful reply, also im a fan of jack staubers work so it was nice to see that linked, i really agree with what you are saying about openness, this is why most of my friends are people who do actually struggle, we have listened to eachother and bonded over some shared mental issues, the issue is that suicide is experienced as something that is "extreme" (reasonably so) but to the point where it is "out of friends hands" and instead should be something that is stricly between a suicidal person and a therapist (but suicide is such a big decision and id rather talk to a friend about this than a stranger), or even that suicidal person would need hospitalisation (taking them away from what they know increases feelings of isolation), i have opened up in the past (mildly) about my suicidal ideation to a friend, in reality i just wanted to talk about what led me to wanting to end my life, but i was met with "no please dont, life is worth living" id rather talk about what i feel makes my life NOT worth living and unload that than simply be persuaded to stay with cliche phrases

the issue is that a lot of people simply arent willing to let you unload, because a lot of people do not have the capacity to engage, its like they need to protect themselves from your emotions, theyre seen as draining their mental energy, it is a heavy topic, so of course it requires a lot of energy, but i hate the fact that most people are only willing to "show up" for you if you have a problem that is "easy" enough for them, one of the most heartbreaking things to me is seeing people go through their first breakup (an undeniably painful experience) and how everyone shows up for them, they let them talk through it, they sit with them while they cry, but when i have an episode that is "too much" and i have to sit through my suffering alone

i think a problem with this is the emphasis on rationality in western philosophical tradition, people have the impression that humans are primarily rational creatures, and rationality "trumps" emotion, so when you come to somebody with a problem that isnt easily fixed, they dont know what to do with it, its so hard to find somebody who is willing to just sit with you through it, without trying to fix, just being there, i dont want solutions, i just want presence, but that is such a rare thing to find

i mean just look at the way that people respond to physical health vs mental health, if i was having a heart attack on the floor, you would be considered an evil person to just walk away from me and let me die without even attempting cpr or anything to rescue me, but if im actively suicidal, and you know my mental issues are killing me, yet you walk away, you are seen as "doing the right thing" or "protecting yourself" and the suicidal persons idea that they are a burden is reinforced by that

there are people that are willing to listen and be genuine, but from my experience, these are rare, those people are very very beneifical and absolutely can help, but theyre so rare to come by, the problem i stated isnt that listening is fake, just that the problem is that most people are too scared and drained to listen properly, we need more of the "comerades" you described, but i dont think that alone would solve it, it has to be mixed with societal improvements which make existing easier, THAT is genuine suicide prevention, and it is often not the core message of september 10th

I also agree with all written here, which sadly is the stark reality that contrasts the utopian society lined out above...

 

[pepperfarmer]

Suicide is inseparable from its social components; there needs to be focus on teaching people how to be a listener that makes a person feel seen and heard and not patronized nor "talked down to".

People have to give suicidal people SPACE. That applies to one-on-one conversations too. It means culturally normalizing frank expression of pain. Everyone from all walks and qualities of life has experience with deep pain and despair at some point in their lives; and it should not be considered beyond anyone to use their life-given noggin to listen for just a little bit to what someone may be going through.

There is also the real cultural component of how we view pain and pleasure too. A concerning number of people have views on life that emphasize personal pleasure over interpersonal cohesion. If someone views pleasure as the ultimate good, they may be tempted to view listening to someone else's pain (not always pleasurable) as genuinely morally sinful to themself. That is an opinion, one subject to change; I dare wager it can be turned as easily as it was made—such a vulgar opinion is often formed with no thought at all, and therefore can be reformed with just a little more thought to it. Regardless of how clueless some people are, we must never deny the inherent mutability present in such cultural matters where perceptions, values, and norms are never set in stone, nor can they 100% resist the natural influence that intense will has upon the human brain and ear.

Our own feelings and views on pain and pleasure do have niches in the social fabric. At least we are not alone in wanting to be heard, seen, and treated in a manner that is genuinely accompanying, rather than alienating.


for me personally even if my problems are not 100% "solved" from talking about it, being able to just say my piece even in a visceral manner, frees up just so much within me.

that feeling of belonging and capability of openness is an intense experience with real ramifications for human neurology; and it is sincerely one of the things that keeps me going; that is, being able to speak frankly and openly about pain of differing kinds—all of the human kind—including my own, too. and to be able to share and relate among that. to be able to reach parts of people that we do not engage with tenderly enough. that we do not engage enough with dignity and respect, with subjectivity, and careful diligence; and perhaps even at times compassion, too.


the person speaking to a person who is suicidal must position themself not as a guardian angel but a comrade. they must resist the urge to be seduced by a sense of superiority; for such an impulse of self-superiority utterly numbs the brain and heart. and they must be willing to genuinely share and engage in a two-way exchange of values and experiences; they must be open to letting another person's reality present itself before them, and to take that with grace.



system qualities and relationship nonreciprocities must be carefully analyzed and understood by anyone in conversation with their fellow suicidal person.

And all able and sapient people should recognize the very same matters that push down the suicidal oppress their very own souls too—and in fact the suicidal may be of actual benefit to them by acting potentially as a canary in the coal mine to the very same issues that threaten people of all kinds. The person who listens to the suicidal should recognize that the same pains and struggles they experience are ones that truly could be materially possible for them to experience too. Therefore, the same level of interest one pays to one's own matters is justifiably applicable to ones that one's own flesh and feels and heartcells and neurons are also vulnerable to as well—even if one worships one's own supposed invulnerability. We are all human. We all have vulnerabilities. We all feel pain; grievous pains, in real ways in life. We should seek to share not just joy in our good moments but pain in our bad moments; for both places are part of the cycles of feeling that our lives undergo, and it is in both locations (not merely just one) that we deserve genuine company that emphasizes the humanity and shared vulnerability that our nature implies.


I want to emphasize this: loneliness and the feeling that no one can listen to one's own issues is a serious factor that intensifies suicidality and the very feelings of inescapability and social disconnect that play fundamental role in driving suicide.

The scientific models on suicide of Thomas Joiner and countless others do not emphasize belonging for nothing. Seneca did not write this for nothing:


The solution should not be "have a will to live"—that is as useless as "stop feeling pain" or "be happy". The intervention should be to mutually figure out things that have real ability to slowly cultivate such a desire to continue engaging in life; to actually help a person get the things and enter the circumstances that will soothe their soul and inspire possibility through real possession of means of enacting change in their own life. THOSE are the kinds of solutions we should be guiding people towards. Such methods of changing one's own conditions, or such methods of cultivating the capacity for such change as well; combined with a respect for the desire to want change within time near to one's life, closer to the near present rather than near future—and such nearer more proximal solutions may not fix everything 100%, but they are real and have real effect, and are often better at inspiring will to live and quelling desires for death than almost anything else one can conjure up to say. To affect someone we ought ENGAGE them; not just any way, but in a proper, careful manner ^^.


I hate that too. Let us include the speaker themself in this statement too, let them be a part of the equation as well. They should be more willing to engage without disdain people who are suicidal, into the depths of their pain, desperation, and confusion, and have a greatsouled preference for embracing the pain of others and preferring this over pressuring another soul to resort to distant, selfbottling, isolation, or worse. (That is, fucking death. Death by suicide.)

If someone doesn't want to see you in a casket, then let them do what would actually accomplish that goal. Let all people know that effective suicide prevention does not seek to jerryrig cheap clichés and trite gambits into conversation with suicidal people, and that telling someone you can talk to them and actually engaging in that proper healing conversation are two distinct matters indeed.

I do believe that whenever we are suicidal that—even if not all people are competent when talking with us in our vulnerable moments—that it might not be pragmatic to exclude all people who utter the phrase "you can talk to me", for I don't want to deny there really are people who mean it and are competent on top or that—I just want to make this note clear as a footnote to my arguments; I don't want to (implicitly) advocate heuristics I do not wish to propose, is all ^^.


People should realize that giving comfort to someone in pain is an intrinsically valuable and good thing. That many suicidal people who receive competent engagement from people well versed in humanity—empathetic beyond mere posturing, who listen and respect, who receive and give actual meaningful understanding—may not explicitly express "I feel better", yet STILL genuinely appreciate the interaction, and have positive affect slowly accrue from not only pondering what was said in emptyspaced moments over time, but from the comfort of having that connection still having pulse in their life, that cadence of association and access that goes beyond promises and words, that is felt rather than claimed. If people only knew that this gives meaning to both lives present, comfort and love to both lives present. That society needs this. We need openness. We need visceral embrace. And suicidal people give this chance for radical openness, allowing the other side to bring in their own experiences of excruciating pain and despairs as well. That is a connection of mutual aid. That is what all members of all societies need more of. ESPECIALLY societies that are seduced by this ridiculous lie: that we are better off alone. We are not. We are not better when we turn away the people who come to us face to face, carrying their own pain and humanity honestly to our very own ears; to refuse to engage humanely with this person, to fearfully engage distance, to fear our own pain and the pain of others—is this not an insane act of cowardice? There is moral burden on people to care for the welfare of those they have connection with. Nonsuicidals should assist the suicidal by listening without judgment, avoiding trite clichés, and engaging as a respectful peer, and caring for root causes, and not being distracted by symptoms or intense words.

We should care about the reasons that people feel suicidal, and seek to directly yet carefully caringly address those; without trying to appeal to imagined post-death scenarios. The person is alive right there in front of you, so do not let the mind wander too much from that, and let not the imagination get too hasty with crafting visions of possible death—such thoughts are intrusive, and of little use to the wellbeing of the suicidal person before us—let us embrace their humanity, and engage with them with this perception in mind: "This is someone who is trying to figure things out with what they know and currently are aware of, all under immense pressure. I would not be doing so hot if I was in their shoes either. It is possible to listen to this person's life on their own terms and reach shared understanding in some real ways. Intense conversation on intense matters such as this is seriously worth having, for it directly engages matters key to human life: how to reduce pain and live a life that is worth living, even when seeking understanding and possibility is not always immediately gratifying". ♥

Socrates isn't a name, it's a title

Anyways, to add my own two cents: I think 'non-suicidal' people often tend to both be perceived by us and perceive themselves as way further from suicidal individuals than they really are, but in many cases, 'non-suicidal' and suicidal people can have a lot more in common than on what they differ.

If you really get to talking with some 'non-suicidal' people, like family members, and especially older people, you'll realize they'll actually have a lot more in common with you in terms of suffering and mental state than you'd really expect. In this aspect, I think talking to someone 'as a comrade, not as a guardian angel' as you describe isn't a matter of simply avoiding condescension, but genuinely reflects the actual similarities we have to 'non-suicidal' people. So many people out there hold so tightly to 'life-at-all-costs' ideals not out of some naïve optimism or fundamental difference to us, although I don't deny many do, but as the genuine cognitive guardrail that has kept them from answering the call of the void.

When you wake up one day and realize that all the things that happened to you are horrible enough for a rational person to kill themselves over it, or even over less, a lot of things can suddenly start to make sense about yourself. That you end up becoming a good friend for those rational people is the cherry on top.

 

[Somewhat Suicidal]

Interesting point of view and there is certainly some truth to it.
I feel one of the key differences between 'them' and 'us' is best summarised with the word resilience.

When you wake up one day and realize that all the things that happened to you are horrible enough for a rational person to kill themselves over it, or even over less, a lot of things can suddenly start to make sense about yourself. That you end up becoming a good friend for those rational people is the cherry on top.

I don't quite get this part tho, can you elaborate?