Discussion What are the best arguments against suicide that you know of?

[LittleMonkey]

The title

 

[onleana]

very good question! i personally don't know any. i think suicide is a rational decision and everyone has a right to end their life whenever they want to. there are situations e.g. suicide in revange which i have mixed feelings about. but suicide in general? yeah i dont know. curious to see what others have to say

 

[Chinaski]

Yeah there are literally no good reasons for anyone to not literally cease to exist, imo more people should do this

 

[Mixo]

 

[slagiatt]

I think for young people, let's say under the age of 25 or so, you can make the argument that there's a decent chance things could get better, that they can get to a point where they feel life is worth living. Or that they have not had time to exhaust all other options.

For people who are older, who've sought help without success, or who have permanent debilitating illnesses, I think it's hard to argue with the idea that it's a personal choice people should be free to make

 

[Dot]

Whn thre r situatns tht cn b solvd - lts of ppl nt wn2 ctb thy jst cnnt hndle own situatns n.emre

Sme cn b fixd & sme cnnt - 2 C ppl c.t.b. whn thre = solutn thy r nt awre of fls tragc

 

[Un-]

I think a good argument would be the malleability of life. In countless lives, accounted for or not, people have always overcome horrific setbacks because they found a meaning and purpose. If something like that is conceivable to a person, and they really want to achieve it, they wouldn't let their predispositions and disadvantages erode that dream. It obviously depends on the person's character, and whether or not they want to accept such a huge responsibility, or if they are willing to learn strong ideologies about life. In simple terms, it's not the argument that "things will get better". It's the argument that "you can make things better".

 

[Chinaski]

Too much chat in here when we should all be getting on with killing ourselves imo, unless someone can provide a solid argument against it in this very thread there are literally no acceptable excuses, l shall be checking back in fifteen minutes to ensure compliance.

 

[Interloper]

Too much chat in here when we should all be getting on with killing ourselves imo, unless someone can provide a solid argument against it in this very thread there are literally no acceptable excuses, l shall be checking back in fifteen minutes to ensure compliance.

How should I confirm my arrival, have they got snail mail in the void? Because something tells me cell reception might be a bit spotty there.

 

[edu0z]

is bad for your health (you could even die)

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

An extremely complicated topic, imo.

Kind of like arguing for/against buying a particular car. It depends on what the specific buyer is looking for; some criteria would be impossible to guess, while some are given from the get-go.

Even accepting things like "it's a right" doesn't help, since you can "have the right" to buy whichever car you want.

I think that case-by-case arguments would be best.

Let's say someone likes their life, but then gets some 100% temporary and strong-ish level of physical pain that will go away after an hour. During this hour they are suicidal, and when the hour is up they'll resume loving life until they die. I think it's reasonable to assume that, for that person, suicide would not make sense. If they attempt suicide and live, they'll be happy they survived. An outside observer that is a pro-mortalist might still think that suicide is better for that person (ignoring other people here); but I think the suicidal's perspective should be assumed, like the car purchaser's should be (rather than the salesman).

About who's perspective to take, that's my personal opinion. I'd rather people assume my perspective is right when we're discussing my life. But, if I'm drunk/high/etc, then that might be incorrect at those times. Now, what if I am just really stupid and always wrong? It gets tricky, it always does. Should a suicidal five-year-old's perspective be assumed? We can think of scenarios where it makes sense, but in a usual context it doesn't, right? What we're doing, then, is actually taking our own perspective as a last resort for when the SOP isn't available/reliable.

The opposite, then. Someone hates their life and wants to die, then gets an hour of loving life in combination with their only opportunity to die, doesn't commit, and then suffers through a horrible existence until they die. From this person's perspective, they made the wrong choice and wished they had died. Reasonable, non-religious people would be very likely to agree with this person's assessment.

Both scenarios are so clear that both perspectives will, in all likelihood, reach the same conclusions. We can make it a bit more fleshed out with real life examples or draw lines on a whiteboard like that professor who discussed the rationality of suicide in the resources. We still probably can't avoid a conflict between the perspectives in cases where the primary perspective deems suicide a good course of action, that's why it's important to decide who has priority under which circumstances.

Since reality isn't simple, it's difficult or impossible to tell from the outside if suicide actually makes sense from the suicidal's perspective. First of all, the perspective can't really be transferred from person to person. Secondly, what's transferred as the perspective can be influenced by the temporary state (one hour of pain/relief). Also, the person could just be bad or unable at even forming a perspective in the first place.

Someone can't communicate and we don't know what they're experiencing at all. SOP unavailable, guaranteed. Maybe they're in pain but definitely want to live for Jesus, maybe they enjoy life a lot but are totally delusional, maybe they want to die 100% and are completely sure and (what we would call) rationally minded. In order to decide if someone is rational/delusional we take an "objective" perspective. In reality, it's about being as objective as possible, since you can't be completely... What was the question again?



Guess I could try to think of some arguments:

1. If someone is about to die/are alive and find their existence good enough now, and have no good reason (leading to a probability that they find unacceptable, based on their own assessment or otherwise) to expect that they'll fall into the red zone without being able to recover more than "50%" of the remaining time spend alive at a certain point in time, then after somehow having calculated this they might want to not die since they don't want to do that.

2. If someone believes that suicide would cause them to have an afterlife that they would value as worse than the remainder of their "current" life, then suicide is bad to them if their belief is correct/they believe their belief is correct (which they do, that's per definition).

3. If someone writes something with a lot of holes and shouldn't have engaged with things out of their depth, then realizes that they don't want to have written a long ass text without posting, then they should hit the "post reply" button before killing themselves. (Provided that their existence is good enough to live according to their perspective [taking everything above and more into account]).



TL;DR: I've never had a girlfriend and I am unemployable.

 

[Chinaski]

is bad for your health (you could even die)

Some people live to regret it.

How should I confirm my arrival, have they got snail mail in the void? Because something tells me cell reception might be a bit spotty there.

If you simply refrain from posting on SS for two days you are declared officially dead, your name is added to the bronze memorial in the foyer and there will be a thirty second moratorium on posting in the counting game as a mark of respect.

Alternatively you could simply let us know by requesting your relatives petition a redneck US senator demanding they change the entire internet in your memory.

 

[FuneralCry]

Suicide is a personal decision and it is a human right. We have no obligations to stay alive as we did not ask to exist. Nobody should be forced to live against their wishes. It is cruel how people have to resort to painful or traumatic methods to end their pain. At this point, I have suffered enough and I deserve a peaceful death. I want to escape from decades of pain and for me personally it is the only thing that feels right. Life itself is the cause of all pain and suffering, more than anything I wish I never existed.

 

[Oblivion Access]

As I see it:
a) your situation might change to where you no longer wish to die
b) others might be hurt by your suicide
c) having death readily available to all on demand, no questions asked, removes incentive to solve societal issues (housing, healthcare, treatment of minorities etc)

 

[Chinaski]

c) having death readily available to all on demand, no questions asked, removes incentive to solve societal issues (housing, healthcare, treatment of minorities etc)

"actually it would solve these problems because it would reduce demand, no this is not eugenics, in fact it's very compassionate, it's you who are mean by forcing people to live against their will" due in 5...4...3...

 

[Oblivion Access]

"actually it would solve these problems because it would reduce demand, no this is not eugenics, in fact it's very compassionate, it's you who are mean by forcing people to live against their will" due in 5...4...3...

What alternative do you propose, given neither the existing order nor instant death on demand are desirable? Some sort of process for all would be exiters where professionals try to address the things that make them want to die while they await approval?

 

[willitpass]

I think for young people, let's say under the age of 25 or so, you can make the argument that there's a decent chance things could get better, that they can get to a point where they feel life is worth living. Or that they have not had time to exhaust all other options.

For people who are older, who've sought help without success, or who have permanent debilitating illnesses, I think it's hard to argue with the idea that it's a personal choice people should be free to make

as someone who is under the age of 25 and has genuinely exhausted all options as far as treatment that argument isn't always valid

 

[edu0z]

As I see it:
a) your situation might change to where you no longer wish to die
b) others might be hurt by your suicide
c) having death readily available to all on demand, no questions asked, removes incentive to solve societal issues (housing, healthcare, treatment of minorities etc)

"actually it would solve these problems because it would reduce demand, no this is not eugenics, in fact it's very compassionate, it's you who are mean by forcing people to live against their will" due in 5...4...3...

If you were to market or even give everyone the right to the choice of death, many morepeople would not wish to die. By making death so accessible, you would be increasing the supply, you would be normalizing it, and therefore those people who romanticize the idea of suicide and see it as a fanciful solution to all problems, would have to look for another way of escape. There would be more deaths, but the number of suicidal people in society decreased.

 

[Chinaski]

What alternative do you propose, given neither the existing order nor instant death on demand are desirable? Some sort of process for all would be exiters where professionals try to address the things that make them want to die while they await approval?

I have no alternative beyond extend euthanasia / maid beyond its current qualifying criteria and make it financially accessible, and not just the privilege of those who can afford it.

Generally l avoid this chat, it's been done to death and my view on the routine clamour for death on demand has been consistently presented, ultimately my take is moot, nobody is getting their peaceful pill just because l decree it, nor am l standing in the way of anyone ctb-ing.

"actually it would solve these problems because it would reduce demand, no this is not eugenics, in fact it's very compassionate, it's you who are mean by forcing people to live against their will" due in 5...4...3...

I was not serious with this post FYI, this is very much the opposite of my position but is a very commonly expressed theme on here, to the point where I've been reported as a pro lifer for disagreeing with it.

 

[Dot]

c) having death readily available to all on demand, no questions asked, removes incentive to solve societal issues (housing, healthcare, treatment of minorities etc)

Thnk ths 1 v imprtnt

If you were to market or even give everyone the right to the choice of death, many morepeople would not wish to die. By making death so accessible, you would be increasing the supply, you would be normalizing it, and therefore those people who romanticize the idea of suicide and see it as a fanciful solution to all problems, would have to look for another way of escape. There would be more deaths, but the number of suicidal people in society decreased.

Gd pnt - sme ppl mght fnd thngs easir if d/ nt fl trppd

 

[edu0z]

c) having death readily available to all on demand, no questions asked, removes incentive to solve societal issues (housing, healthcare, treatment of minorities etc)

You are taking for granted that everyone will want to die at the very least if they have a problem when in fact it is the opposite... our instinct forces us to survive, if you don't believe me look for any documentary on discovery channel about people who spend days in hell surviving and then live and are happy.

 

[Chinaski]

If you were to market or even give everyone the right to the choice of death, many morepeople would not wish to die. By making death so accessible, you would be increasing the supply, you would be normalizing it, and therefore those people who romanticize the idea of suicide and see it as a fanciful solution to all problems, would have to look for another way of escape. There would be more deaths, but the number of suicidal people in society decreased.

There will be more people from the lower classes accepting death on demand than those from higher up. Look at the myriad drivers to suicide. Poverty, homelessness, addiction, mental and physical illnesses with poor access to quality healthcare, poor social care for the elderly, so on and so forth. Then there's the likelihood that death on demand would reduce these services even further. It would be economically beneficial to the ruling classes to turn the screws ever so slightly on those drivers, in order to cull some of the more financially burdensome members of society. This is my least favourite genre of SS thread, l get that suicide is difficult, that's why l haven't done it yet, but this death on demand chat is turning that frustration outward rather than looking inward. A compassionate society is one which seeks to ameliorate the drivers to suicide, not offer instant death to its poorest, and weakest, members.

 

[whatevs]

This is easy. If you have any sort of intimate relationship with another person, be it friendship, familial, or romantic, you will cause them a sizeable emotional injury. I am pro-choice, but that also means being able to weigh in the implications of suicide.

It's a matter of how your own suffering measures up to the consequences of carrying the act out. I would assume that people that are less connected do it more frequently.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

as someone who is under the age of 25 and has genuinely exhausted all options as far as treatment that argument isn't always valid

Your prefrontal cortex, which determines executive function, is not fully developed until you are 25. I believe this is why many people use 25 as a cutoff point in this context. But I think it's dumb to see it as the be-all-end-all age to determine whether it's "acceptable" to ctb. I wanted to kill myself at 20 and now at 26 I want to kill myself even more ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[willitpass]

Your prefrontal cortex, which determines executive function, is not fully developed until you are 25. I believe this is why many people use 25 as a cutoff point in this context. But I think it's dumb to see it as the be-all-end-all age to determine whether it's "acceptable" to ctb. I wanted to kill myself at 20 and now at 26 I want to kill myself even more ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i've wanted to kill myself since i was 11, now i'm 19 and still want to. even if my prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed it is so deeply engrained that it will not change. i've tried every treatment option available i don't think trying it once my brain is finished developing will make it any easier, at this point i think it would make it harder because your brain is less open to change by then

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

i've tried every treatment option available i don't think trying it once my brain is finished developing will make it any easier, at this point i think it would make it harder because your brain is less open to change by then

I feel you. I guess that is part of why I'm now more motivated to do it now that I'm older and know that it will be harder and harder to change. I suppose it can get easier in some respects, like developing coping mechanisms over time, but I just feel like life is so much more pointless now. I'm sorry to hear you've been struggling for so long, it really is tough when you know you're doing all you can and still see no end in sight

 

[myopybyproxy]

the possibility of failure and then being unable to succeed next try due to those around you on high alert or the failure leaving one blind/paralysed/brain damaged/amputated limb etc

that is the only real argument against it imo. other arguments are less persuasive because they're speculation (afterlife) or not relevant (being young or having the possibility of improvement isn't an argument against it really, just delaying). yeah maybe someone died who would have positively changed the world in some way but who knows? humans are doomed anyway.

 

[The Disinherited]

Your prefrontal cortex, which determines executive function, is not fully developed until you are 25. I believe this is why many people use 25 as a cutoff point in this context. But I think it's dumb to see it as the be-all-end-all age to determine whether it's "acceptable" to ctb. I wanted to kill myself at 20 and now at 26 I want to kill myself even more ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm 25 now and pretty sure this will be the year I go for that reason, not dumb at all imo because for the suicidal who hope, it's nice to have an age to reach for and to at least doubt one's rationality until then, that doubt around one's rationality could rein in plenty of impulsive suicides and might yield some positive life changes too. Also the development of the prefrontal cortex by 25 (or thereabouts) is at least backed up by science (I'm not a scientist or scientifically literate so it could be bullshit for all I really know) so it shouldn't be dismissed so flippantly. Also to answer OP's question...maybe it's my learned helplessness / PTSD induced fatalism but the best reason I can think of is that it (suicide) might change nothing but the proverbial decor/scenery.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

I'm 25 now and pretty sure this will be the year I go for that reason, not dumb at all imo because for the suicidal who hope, it's nice to have an age to reach for and to at least doubt one's rationality until then, that doubt around one's rationality could rein in plenty of impulsive suicides and might yield some positive life changes too. Also the development of the prefrontal cortex by 25 (or thereabouts) is at least backed up by science (I'm not a scientist or scientifically literate so it could be bullshit for all I really know) so it shouldn't be dismissed so flippantly.

Yeah, I think it's definitely a good milestone or "checkpoint". But everyone's experiences are different so I would want to avoid invalidating anyone who genuinely feels ready to go before 25. That said I do think that in general those younger than 25 or at least 21 should *try* and hold off. I think in general people should try and hold off on killing themselves until they really feel they need to, especially those with people who care about them. More than anything I'm concerned about how my death will affect my family and friends. I really wanted to make it to 30, but it's starting to feel harder and harder. People will talk about how young I was regardless of when I go, I never liked the idea of living to be older than 40 or 50 even when I was at my happiest. I'm just waiting to reach my breaking point.

Also to answer OP's question...maybe it's my learned helplessness / PTSD induced fatalism but the best reason I can think of is that it (suicide) might change nothing but the proverbial decor/scenery.

I'm very curious to know what you mean by this, do you mean like the existence of hell?

 

[Neowise]

• Impulsive suicide: hefty events that may seem like the end of the world but are no permanent problems and might be solved over time, like a failed relationship, a failed exam, job loss etc.. I'm not saying suicide for these reasons isn't justified, I'm saying impulsive suicide directly after these events could potentially have been prevented by giving things more time.
  
  
• Intensity bias: seeing your problems as worse than they might be. I might be guilty of this, so I will use myself as example:
  I'm still living at home with my parents and my abusive mother not being free at all, and I am too scared to change anything with my situation. Several of my friends have suggested moving out, but I believe I can't do it due to financial, emotional or stress reasons. But when I'm honest, that might solve most of my issues. I'm just too depressed / abused to value the pros and cons intelligently.