We're on the news (for the 999999th time)

[Chinaski]

If my view, that throwing the death of a member back in the face of those who are grieving as a means of expressing your own individual fury is totally fucking disrespectful, is the minority view on this forum then it says more about this forum than it does about me, l assure you.

Further, your suggestion boils down to "just keep posting that what we're doing is not illegal" is hare-brained. The argument is not just a legal one, but an ethical one, if it was purely a legal matter then it would be left to lawyers to defend, not us. In addition, if you're hoping to "persuade" then the taunting posts are far from persuasive, they are quite the opposite. A reasonable person may agree with the right of the site to exist but still come away thinking the place is full of nasty adolescent bullshit.

Finally, to use this forum as a political vehicle detracts from its aim. Anyone who is suicidal and comes here for the first time is likely to not be interested to read through reams of GODDAM THESE PROLIFE TERRORISTS bullshit. The NYT article will fade away, all that will be left is the twitter output of a few people with less than a hundred followers. If this forum becomes consumed by fighting this pseudo-political warfare it stops being what it is, and is a pyrrhic victory for them, not us.

 

[blueclover_.]

If my view, that throwing the death of a member back in the face of those who are grieving as a means of expressing your own individual fury is totally fucking disrespectful,

Are we allowed to 'disrespect' the disrespectful? Those parents blame us too, so we can't blame them back instead, even though none if us here is responsible for their kid's personal decision to CTB? Fine, let's hold our horses high. Don't blame the parents guys, let them demonize us instead, cuz parents are angels and we are mere murderers

The argument is not just a legal one, but an ethical one, if it was purely a legal matter then it would be left to lawyers to defend, not us.

It doesn't say that we, as civilians, do not have the right to express our thoughts, even though we aren't lawyers? Even more so for ethical arguments, we have the right to defend ourselves from the parents who label us as 'murderers' for their kid's personal decision. We have the right to express our thoughts in this open forum just as much as those parents are screaming on twitter.

In addition, if you're hoping to "persuade" then the taunting posts are far from persuasive, they are quite the opposite. A reasonable person may agree with the right of the site to exist but still come away thinking the place is full of nasty adolescent bullshit.

Then it is our goal to change the posts to defend ourselves instead if attacking the parents. I don't blame the members here for striking back to the people like FT26'ers, but i agree that posts like this could have a negative impact on the website. We have to change the goal of the posts to defend ourselves because that is the least we can do to gain supporters from the outsiders.

Finally, to use this forum as a political vehicle detracts from its aim. Anyone who is suicidal and comes here for the first time is likely to not be interested to read through reams of GODDAM THESE PROLIFE TERRORISTS bullshit.

The aim of this forum is to provide an emotionally safe space for suicidal people, but it doesn't necessarily prohibit political talks about legalizing suicide. So the political talks are perfectly allowed in this forum and if you do not want to get involved, no one's forcing you to do anything. Is that bad for the forum? Maybe. But even the mere existence of this place is inherently negative to normies. Nothing can change the world's perspective about suicide.

The NYT article will fade away, all that will be left is the twitter output of a few people with less than a hundred followers. If this forum becomes consumed by fighting this pseudo-political warfare it stops being what it is, and is a pyrrhic victory for them, not us.

What do you think this forum TRULY is? A mere emotional safe space for suicidal people? It has always been permitted to do political talks about legalizing suicide. This forum is anything you make it to be. It can be a place to get emotional support, it can be a place to discuss methods, it can be a place to dicuss legalized euthanasia. There is no set definiton to what Sanctioned Suicide truly is.

 

[Somber]

Let's not project our own problems onto others. If your parents were bad and drove you to suicide, doesn't mean that's also true for mine (or vice versa).
So if you have something to say about your own parents, please do, but don't do so about other people's relatives, unless in emotional support of the person that is venting. Keep in mind that the dead don't require emotional support so no reason to do so after a suicide.

Remember that most people that die will have loved ones that will miss them. Some of them will lash out at the website and the only thing you can do about it is show that we treated both the deceased, the suicide and the aftermath with the utmost respect. There is a reason people don't say bad things at funerals. Now I get why.

 

[Chinaski]

Are we allowed to 'disrespect' the disrespectful? Those parents blame us too, so we can't blame them back instead, even though none if us here is responsible for their kid's personal decision to CTB? Fine, let's hold our horses high. Don't blame the parents guys, let them demonize us instead, cuz parents are angels and we are mere murderers


It doesn't say that we, as civilians, do not have the right to express our thoughts, even though we aren't lawyers? Even more so for ethical arguments, we have the right to defend ourselves from the parents who label us as 'murderers' for their kid's personal decision. We have the right to express our thoughts in this open forum just as much as those parents are screaming on twitter.


Then it is our goal to change the posts to defend ourselves instead if attacking the parents. I don't blame the members here for striking back to the people like FT26'ers, but i agree that posts like this could have a negative impact on the website. We have to change the goal of the posts to defend ourselves because that is the least we can do to gain supporters from the outsiders.


The aim of this forum is to provide an emotionally safe space for suicidal people, but it doesn't necessarily prohibit political talks about legalizing suicide. So the political talks are perfectly allowed in this forum and if you do not want to get involved, no one's forcing you to do anything. Is that bad for the forum? Maybe. But even the mere existence of this place is inherently negative to normies. Nothing can change the world's perspective about suicide.


What do you think this forum TRULY is? A mere emotional safe space for suicidal people? It has always been permitted to do political talks about legalizing suicide. This forum is anything you make it to be. It can be a place to get emotional support, it can be a place to discuss methods, it can be a place to dicuss legalized euthanasia. There is no set definiton to what Sanctioned Suicide truly is.

Tbqh my postings on this, both in this thread and elsewhere, have been clear enough and there's no need to go around it in circles once more. The crux of the point I'm raising in this thread is that perhaps people on this forum shouldn't give ammo to enemies by behaving like total cunts, clearly we disagree on that because you feel the vague and poorly-defined "fight", which you suggest is undertaken purely in the form of posting stuff on here, takes precedence and some of the shite exhibited in this thread is perfectly acceptable and does not embarrass us, and that's fair enough l guess.

 

[blueclover_.]

The crux of the point I'm raising in this thread is that perhaps people on this forum shouldn't give ammo to enemies by behaving like total cunts,

I agree to that. Hence why i stated above that we should change our posts to focus in to defending ourselves without blaming the parents as it could potentially backfire.

I don't shit on the members as much as you do though, their anger is totally justified for being falsely accused for being 'murderers'.

clearly we disagree on that because you feel the vague and poorly-defined "fight", which you suggest is undertaken purely in the form of posting stuff on here, takes precedence and some of the shite exhibited in this thread is perfectly acceptable and does not embarrass us, and that's fair enough l guess.

Lmao. I do think posting stuff and speaking up are effective though, it's the least we can do to gain support from the outsiders. It is better than to sit and do nothing, just waiting for them to imprison Marquis and Serge before banning this website eventually.

 

[Chinaski]

I agree to that. Hence why i stated above that we should change our posts to focus in to defending ourselves without blaming the parents as it could potentially backfire.

I don't shit on the members as much as you do though, their anger is totally justified for being falsely accused for being 'murderers'.


Lmao. I do think posting stuff and speaking up are effective though, it's the least we can do to gain support from the outsiders. I mean do you really want to sit and do nothing, just waiting for them to imprison Marquis and Serge before banning this website?

I don't think it's "shitting on the members", in my opinion it's absolutely for the benefit of the forum as a whole that some of the obviously inappropriate views expressed are appropriately counterbalanced.

Again, you suggest that it's vitally important that we do "something" before the former admin are jailed and the site is closed down. If they are to be jailed, which imo they definitely will not, l doubt this is because l did not post the case for the defence twice a day in the off topic forum. If the website is to be closed, this will not be because l did not start yet another MAN THESE FUCKING PROLIFE ASSHOLES SUCK MAN thread.

 

[Simba]

You bore me, is this more important than the cases of bureaucratic corruption that occurs both in your news program and in your government?

Thats old news *yawn*

 

[flickout]

Okay, it's clear I joined post NYT, so I want to be aware of what I say as I don't want to cause trouble or unease. I don't post a lot but I read the threads. I just want to say that this is more than a shit storm, it's a tragedy. I feel like we're damned as criminals if we fail, we're locked up and called crazy. And we may become disabled and we all know how society feels about people who need any assistance... and we're damned as victims if we succeed - not quite right in the head. Why can't we fix the issues which have been brought out endlessly - instead of destroying the social safety net and having some basic care for people? Yeah I know - while I'm at it why can't we all grow wings, snap our fingers and be somewhere else and twitch our nose to get our chores done. I'll grow up now.

 

[little helpers]

I just want to say that this is more than a shit storm, it's a tragedy. I feel like we're damned as criminals if we fail, we're locked up and called crazy. And we may become disabled and we all know how society feels about people who need any assistance... and we're damned as victims if we succeed - not quite right in the head.

too right. and all of these news outlets purging shit are just a herald of the real storm, like how everything else has played out, from voting right laws to anti-trans initiatives. "you can't stay neutral on a moving train". that's my favorite quote for social situations. the train fucking moves. staying neutral, centrism on everything, and it'll run over us some day, if not in the near future. this is not paranoia, or being distracted. it's a conversation that must be had, when the alarm clearly rings.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

This is a weird take imo because this relies on three very odd positions.

1) that we should show no regard for the way grief is manifesting - people will, after all, grieve for us too, sometimes angrily. For a forum which is supposedly about empathy and compassion we could perhaps tone down the using of someone's death as a taunt, lest we be seen as a bunch of immature teenagers talking shit online.

2) It makes an assumption about the relationship between the departed and those grieving. If your parents are bastards that's fair enough, it's incorrect and inappropriate to assume the nature of these relationships are universal on here and it's disrespectful to the departed member to do that.

3) "hey if they didn't throw mud at us maybe we wouldn't x y z" is really immature shit, there's no justification for directly blaming a parent for the loss of their child in the way it's so regularly done on here. You can defend the right of this site to exist without being total cunts about it and giving them more mud to sling in the process.

1) I was only talking about people grieving for myself when it comes to disregarding grief because it's objectively a wasted effort in my case. I make no assumptions about anyone else's situation.

2) Again, I only meant that for my example though we have seen time and again through the way that many of the leaders of FT26 conduct themselves that some of them are no better. Once again though, I was only explicitly giving permission to do so in the case of MY suicide so that there's no confusion on that front when the time comes.

3) It's too late for maturity. The real mature take would be to accept that if they have the right to be needlessly cuntful towards us, we should have our right to lash out all the same when pushed too far. I actually used to agree with you in that people here did need to seem more mature and willing to listen to them but after doxxing Marquis and Serge I don't think that method works and in my eyes, the majority of them are now exempt from any mercy or respect anymore, at least the most active leaders are. These are merely generalizations after all but if it really hurts any of them too deeply maybe they should be the mature ones first and stop to consider what they're doing. Extending olive branches to them clearly isn't working so even though it's immature, I still believe responding in turn is completely justified since nothing else seems to work.

 

[Chinaski]

I make clear here that l absolutely do not suggest an "olive branch" to these people, merely that we conduct ourselves in an appropriate way. It's difficult to consistently weigh the presumption that we are "better" than them whilst also arguing that it's okay to stoop to levels we criticise them for. You can only do one, it's not possible to be both.

We should collectively elevate ourselves to be the community we applaud ourselves for being, rather than stoop to distasteful levels which allows them to present us in the way they wish to.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I make clear here that l absolutely do not suggest an "olive branch" to these people, merely that we conduct ourselves in an appropriate way. It's difficult to consistently weigh the presumption that we are "better" than them whilst also arguing that it's okay to stoop to levels we criticise them for. You can only do one, it's not possible to be both.

We should collectively elevate ourselves to be the community we applaud ourselves for being, rather than stoop to distasteful levels which allows them to present us in the way they wish to.

They're just going to ignore any attempts to do so anyway and still go after whoever is running the site at the moment. Turning polite and submissive isn't going to make them stop and they'll just continue to use the examples they cherry pick from the angry posts even when it's justified or they'll continue to make nonsensical conclusions even from completely innocuous posts.

They don't even seem to actually care to focus on all the posts that actually insult them either, often times they screenshot the regular posts from people simply expressing their views on suicide as a whole even when it has nothing to do with FT26 or grieving parents and using that to demonize us. You're suggesting we rise above but if we actually could, I bet some of us wouldn't really even need to be here in the first place so to sit crudely on the fence and saying "do better" every time we get attacked isn't going to motivate anyone either.

The community is still one that encourages freedom of choice, so why is it so wrong if some people are making the choice to actually defend themselves instead of just sitting there and taking it or forcing them to gentrify their words just to suit the sensibilities of people who don't even actually care about any of us.

 

[Chinaski]

They're just going to ignore any attempts to do so anyway and still go after whoever is running the site at the moment. Turning polite and submissive isn't going to make them stop and they'll just continue to use the examples they cherry pick from the angry posts even when it's justified or they'll continue to make nonsensical conclusions even from completely innocuous posts.

They don't even seem to actually care to focus on all the posts that actually insult them either, often times they screenshot the regular posts from people simply expressing their views on suicide as a whole even when it has nothing to do with FT26 or grieving parents and using that to demonize us. You're suggesting we rise above but if we actually could, I bet some of us wouldn't really even need to be here in the first place so to sit crudely on the fence and sayijg "do better" every time we get attacked isn't going to motivate anyone either.

The community is still one that encourages freedom of choice, so why is it so wrong if some people are making the choice to actually defend themselves instead of just sitting there and taking it or forcing them to gentrify their words just to suit the sensibilities of people who don't even actually care about any of us.

I don't think I've ever suggested "suiting the sensibilities" in the way you describe. To repeat myself from an earlier post, it is possible to defend this site and its premise without being a total cunt, l also think the weaponising of an ex-member ctb-ing by folk who never knew them is absolutely disrespectful to that member. This is a pretty uncontroversial position imo and this should not be deliberately confused with appealing to or appeasing those who want to shut the site down as a means of indulging embarrassing rage-posting.

It's also worth noting that it was the NYT, not the relatives of an ex-member, who doxxed the admin so the idea that it was the doxxing which suddenly made some of the unpleasant output contained in this very thread okay is a bit of a weird one.

 

[TheBestUsernameEver]

I make clear here that l absolutely do not suggest an "olive branch" to these people, merely that we conduct ourselves in an appropriate way. It's difficult to consistently weigh the presumption that we are "better" than them whilst also arguing that it's okay to stoop to levels we criticise them for. You can only do one, it's not possible to be both.

We should collectively elevate ourselves to be the community we applaud ourselves for being, rather than stoop to distasteful levels which allows them to present us in the way they wish to.

I'm not going to get involved in the pseudo-political bullshit undertaken on this forum.
I came here for support and not to form a virtual armada with which to wage war against "those effing prolifers".

I do however agree with the post quoted above.

If we as a forum wish to elevate ourselves above the damaging behaviour of those who protest this forum, we cannot accept nor defend a minority of members who apparently seek to drag others into a ridiculous mud slinging contest.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I don't think I've ever suggested "suiting the sensibilities" in the way you describe. To repeat myself from an earlier post, it is possible to defend this site and its premise without being a total cunt, l also think the weaponising of an ex-member ctb-ing by folk who never knew them is absolutely disrespectful to that member. This is a pretty uncontroversial position imo and this should not be deliberately confused with appealing to or appeasing those who want to shut the site down as a means of indulging embarrassing rage-posting.

It's also worth noting that it was the NYT, not the relatives of an ex-member, who doxxed the admin so the idea that it was the doxxing which suddenly made some of the unpleasant output contained in this very thread okay is a bit of a weird one.

That's why I felt like I had to make it clear that in my case it IS okay to be a total cunt to my bereaved parents when the time comes not that it's totally okay for anyone else but regardless I still find it odd that you always like to come to FT26 related posts acting all high and mighty just because you happen to be able to separate your beliefs from your emotions or whatever is compelling you to always disrespect fellow members by calling them cunts or whatever whether or not they may really be acting that way. I could be wrong and that's not how you really are but it really seems to me that's how you're conducting yourself every time. If that were true you'd be no better than the Anti-choicers for trying to infantilize members of this site and disregard their feelings in favor of shaming the way they conduct themselves which might as well be driving some of us further into any suicidal tendencies that already existed way before joining this site.

I can't say I don't understand that perhaps you think that when every member suddenly stops conducting ourselves in whatever way they chose and no new members ever fall into the same patterns and all old posts deriding the so-called grieving parents are deleted then maybe these people might finally get off our backs. Even if that were to happen though the anti-choicers still already have way too much ammo from the past. They don't really need any more and they're just going to continue circulating what they already have while passing it on to journalists or government officials or whoever until they succeed in shutting down this website and possibly any derivatives that may form as well.

Yes the NYT were the ones who did the doxxing and made that article but who do you think put them up to it? Their bosses? Jesus? Their consciences? They clearly cite both FT26 and Stop SS as sources for where they got most of their data on the site from so in the end it's still those groups' actions which have prompted so much panic and rude comments. I do believe there is a line but I just don't think it has yet to be crossed, at least not in this thread but I'll admit I haven't read enough. Care to quote some specifically overly bad takes or at least give us some direct pointers as to how these posts can actually be worded better given the inherent frustration the original posters must have definitely felt at the time?

Instead of continuing to dog on people just because they're mean and embarrassing, practice what you preach and either treat these rude but troubled members with respect or maybe at least lead by example and give people solid techniques to actually conduct themselves better by proofreading or whatever suits you. Don't have to if you don't want to. Simply sitting on the sidelines pointing out faults clearly isn't working in changing enough minds though if that's what you really want.

 

[Thequietone]

You bore me, is this more important than the cases of bureaucratic corruption that occurs both in your news program and in your government?

They ruin us. Everyone can decide to kill themselves. It is our fucking choice. If this site is closed, I can't vent anywhere anymore. So probably I kill myself sooner lol..

 

[Thequietone]

You bore me, is this more important than the cases of bureaucratic corruption that occurs both in your news program and in your government?

They even deactivated the comments on youtube there, I can't take this news channel serious. They know that they would get a lot of hate but they should ask us why we are here and that it helps us and that we never choosed life.

 

[Chinaski]

That's why I felt like I had to make it clear that in my case it IS okay to be a total cunt to my bereaved parents when the time comes not that it's totally okay for anyone else but regardless I still find it odd that you always like to come to FT26 related posts acting all high and mighty just because you happen to be able to separate your beliefs from your emotions or whatever is compelling you to always disrespect fellow members by calling them cunts or whatever whether or not they may really be acting that way. I could be wrong and that's not how you really are but it really seems to me that's how you're conducting yourself every time. If that were true you'd be no better than the Anti-choicers for trying to infantilize members of this site and disregard their feelings in favor of shaming the way they conduct themselves which might as well be driving some of us further into any suicidal tendencies that already existed way before joining this site.

I can't say I don't understand that perhaps you think that when every member suddenly stops conducting ourselves in whatever way they chose and no new members ever fall into the same patterns and all old posts deriding the so-called grieving parents are deleted then maybe these people might finally get off our backs. Even if that were to happen though the anti-choicers still already have way too much ammo from the past. They don't really need any more and they're just going to continue circulating what they already have while passing it on to journalists or government officials or whoever until they succeed in shutting down this website and possibly any derivatives that may form as well.

Yes the NYT were the ones who did the doxxing and made that article but who do you think put them up to it? Their bosses? Jesus? Their consciences? They clearly cite both FT26 and Stop SS as sources for where they got most of their data on the site from so in the end it's still those groups' actions which have prompted so much panic and rude comments. I do believe there is a line but I just don't think it has yet to be crossed, at least not in this thread but I'll admit I haven't read enough. Care to quote some specifically overly bad takes or at least give us some direct pointers as to how these posts can actually be worded better given the inherent frustration the original posters must have definitely felt at the time?

Instead of continuing to dog on people just because they're mean and embarrassing, practice what you preach and either treat these rude but troubled members with respect or maybe at least lead by example and give people solid techniques to actually conduct themselves better by proofreading or whatever suits you. Don't have to if you don't want to. Simply sitting on the sidelines pointing out faults clearly isn't working in changing enough minds though if that's what you really want.

Tbf if it's somehow incumbent upon me to offer alternatives to posting about how ex-members' parents should own their responsibility for the suicide of their loved one then a starting point is going to be "this is shitty, don't fucking do it".

You've posted a lot of words in that post but the gist is either you're okay with an ex-member, now deceased, being weaponised in, imo, a disrespectful way which is used against us to illustrate our collective immaturity or you think it's perfectly fine and appropriate. I've said time and again l could not give two fucks for the illusory political battle that others here do, l could not care less about barricading against pro-lifers and certainly can't be arsed appealing to them either. This is not part of a tactical ploy to navigate our way through Those Goddam Pro Lifers because l genuinely dgaf, it's just a point of basic housekeeping about how we treat the passing of ex members of this site and the maturity with which we regard suicide. Every time that death is used as a means of taunt, as if it's our property to wield in this way, it belies the notion that we are a Compassionate Safe Haven of Empathy and Respect and instead suggests we're a community of angsty teenagers who don't know what the fuck we are talking about.

The issue is as much about how much we respect the members of this site who have passed as it is about anything else, l don't know why this needs repeating so frequently.

 

[miserableforever]

Your comment is quite insensitive

It is, yes and no. We can't generalize here. Then again, in my case it's 100% my mother's doing, paired with an avalanche of BPD never ending fits after I left the house.
I'm sure we all have our unique circumstances that brought us to this place.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Tbf if it's somehow incumbent upon me to offer alternatives to posting about how ex-members' parents should own their responsibility for the suicide of their loved one then a starting point is going to be "this is shitty, don't fucking do it".

You've posted a lot of words in that post but the gist is either you're okay with an ex-member, now deceased, being weaponised in, imo, a disrespectful way which is used against us to illustrate our collective immaturity or you think it's perfectly fine and appropriate. I've said time and again l could not give two fucks for the illusory political battle that others here do, l could not care less about barricading against pro-lifers and certainly can't be arsed appealing to them either. This is not part of a tactical ploy to navigate our way through Those Goddam Pro Lifers because l genuinely dgaf, it's just a point of basic housekeeping about how we treat the passing of ex members of this site and the maturity with which we regard suicide. Every time that death is used as a means of taunt, as if it's our property to wield in this way, it belies the notion that we are a Compassionate Safe Haven of Empathy and Respect and instead suggests we're a community of angsty teenagers who don't know what the fuck we are talking about.

The issue is as much about how much we respect the members of this site who have passed as it is about anything else, l don't know why this needs repeating so frequently.

I can't know for sure how any deceased members would have felt about this seeing as they are deceased so I don't have any way to comment on it. I may not have expressed it well myself but as I repeatedly said, I am only speaking for myself and in my case I consider it very disrespectful to me if people from here do NOT disrespect any family members or friends of mine who become members of these groups or blame this site for any reason. Perhaps some other members who have passed might agree with me or they might not, I can't really say. I didn't personally know or even interact with any of the grieving parents' members so since they never made their thoughts on this situation explicit, the most respect I can pay to them now is to not assume anything about the way they felt or would feel about this type of scenario.

Maybe my words don't come across this way, but I'd like to make it clear that I don't endorse bullying for the sake of bullying, at least I wouldn't do it myself. I'm simply saying that it's understandable where the people who are saying such mean things to the people being mean to us are coming from and maybe it's not totally justified or mature but I'm done caring. If I had the mental capacity to be mature and not think like an angsty teen even though I'm almost 28 years old, then why else would I even be here?

Not saying everyone here is like that just that I personally am and maybe some of the people saying those things are too but that's a problem that's never going to be fixed until they're either given better advice to deal with it than mental health services can currently offer or until the site itself is simply shut down. Guess which one of these the fixers want?

Maybe they just need someone like you too on their side to tell them that they need to be treating suicidal people with more maturity and respect if they want to actually be the saviors they see themselves as instead of labeling us all as child predators, cultists, or whatever they want to believe. So far all their attempts to do so come with a huge amount of fakeness and condescension so I doubt that's happening anytime soon.

 

[deflationary]

I don't particularly care to personally blame these people for the deaths of their kids, but I also don't particularly care if someone else does so. They did it first and that obviously does matter. And that's not being childish lmao. You can't attack someone and basically blame them of murder and not expect them to hit back. Besides, it's just obviously much more likely that their parents played a larger role in why they committed suicide than an internet forum. Anyone that decides to attack this place probably should be made aware that they're much more likely to find the culprit looking in the mirror than on here. Maybe that's not nice optics for us but it's the truth anyway.

 

[Chinaski]

I can't know for sure how any deceased members would have felt about this seeing as they are deceased so I don't have any way to comment on it. I may not have expressed it well myself but as I repeatedly said, I am only speaking for myself and in my case I consider it very disrespectful to me if people from here do NOT disrespect any family members or friends of mine who become members of these groups or blame this site for any reason. Perhaps some other members who have passed might agree with me or they might not, I can't really say. I didn't personally know or even interact with any of the grieving parents' members so since they never made their thoughts on this situation explicit, the most respect I can pay to them now is to not assume anything about the way they felt or would feel about this type of scenario.

Maybe my words don't come across this way, but I'd like to make it clear that I don't endorse bullying for the sake of bullying, at least I wouldn't do it myself. I'm simply saying that it's understandable where the people who are saying such mean things to the people being mean to us are coming from and maybe it's not totally justified or mature but I'm done caring. If I had the mental capacity to be mature and not think like an angsty teen even though I'm almost 28 years old, then why else would I even be here?

Not saying everyone here is like that just that I personally am and maybe some of the people saying those things are too but that's a problem that's never going to be fixed until they're either given better advice to deal with it than mental health services can currently offer or until the site itself is simply shut down. Guess which one of these the fixers want?

Maybe they just need someone like you too on their side to tell them that they need to be treating suicidal people with more maturity and respect if they want to actually be the saviors they see themselves as instead of labeling us all as child predators, cultists, or whatever they want to believe. So far all their attempts to do so come with a huge amount of fakeness and condescension so I doubt that's happening anytime soon.

The thing here is this is again viewing it through a prism of SS v F26, which l have little energy to devote to and l suspect I'm not in the minority there, though obviously l may be wrong. They will continue doing what they do and saying what they say, but even if they stopped tomorrow the "you essentially killed your own child, own it bitch" approach would still be the wrong one for numerous reasons, one of them being what it says about this site and what it represents not just publicly, but to the other members within it. If the forum is to propel itself on the basis of the Compassionate Safe Haven rhetoric it naturally doesn't go down well to see a departed member having their death utilised in such a callous way by members who never knew them, it's not comfortable for me as a member to know that if l ctb and a loved one decided, even though l didn't wish for it, to rail against this site that my death would be used purely as a tool to wield against them in the way it has been here.

They did it first and that obviously does matter. And that's not being childish lmao. You can't attack someone and basically blame them of murder and not expect them to hit back.

Yeah it is childish imo. There are numerous ways this site can defend itself without displaying its callous and ugly side so enthusiastically.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

Doesn't make much sense to discuss how "the forum" should act. There are many factions within the forum on all sorts of issues.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

The thing here is this is again viewing it through a prism of SS v F26, which l have little energy to devote to and l suspect I'm not in the minority there, though obviously l may be wrong. They will continue doing what they do and saying what they say, but even if they stopped tomorrow the "you essentially killed your own child, own it bitch" approach would still be the wrong one for numerous reasons, one of them being what it says about this site and what it represents not just publicly, but to the other members within it. If the forum is to propel itself on the basis of the Compassionate Safe Haven rhetoric it naturally doesn't go down well to see a departed member having their death utilised in such a callous way by members who never knew them, it's not comfortable for me as a member to know that if l ctb and a loved one decided, even though l didn't wish for it, to rail against this site that my death would be used purely as a tool to wield against them in the way it has been here.

That's your prerogative I suppose, me on the other hand I believe anyone who uses my own death against this site deserves to be met with reflecting their own bitterness, spite, and crudeness back at them. I also personally don't think a place can even properly function as a safe haven of any sort if it's unable to protect itself against direct attacks against it but maybe that's just me. A shelter isn't worth much if the kind of thing that it exists to shelter from can be allowed to breach its walls any time and do whatever it wants while the people taking shelter just sit back and do nothing about it. Even if you don't think we should do nothing you still haven't given any specific advice yet on what actually needs to be said in order to actually come across as more mature.

Yeah it is childish imo. There are numerous ways this site can defend itself without displaying its callous and ugly side so enthusiastically.

Such as? Take any ugly or callous post and try proofreading it to make it seem more adult if we're so bad at it. Doing so would probably genuinely help people better understand what it is you're trying to get across instead of just acting like you're on neither side and don't care about sides when really all you're doing is bolstering their side at worst. If that sounds like too much for you then what sort of cleanup can you even hope to achieve?

 

[LastFlowers]

Let's not project our own problems onto others. If your parents were bad and drove you to suicide, doesn't mean that's also true for mine (or vice versa).
So if you have something to say about your own parents, please do, but don't do so about other people's relatives, unless in emotional support of the person that is venting. Keep in mind that the dead don't require emotional support so no reason to do so after a suicide.

Remember that most people that die will have loved ones that will miss them. Some of them will lash out at the website and the only thing you can do about it is show that we treated both the deceased, the suicide and the aftermath with the utmost respect. There is a reason people don't say bad things at funerals. Now I get why.

I'm not quite sure what you mean to say by "the dead don't require emotional support",
what exactly are you referring to, as actions that fall under "emotional support" of the deceased?
If it includes respecting the wishes of the dead above the living who want to bury those wishes into the earth with their loved one, then I would say we should be providing "emotional support" to the dead, because they are no longer here to speak for themselves.
(Perhaps I am misinterpreting you, but if you are someone who believes the dead don't have so much as a right to that bare minimum consideration, then that's just something we will be disagreeing vehemently upon for all eternity.)
So, if someone makes known how they feel and what they want, beyond any reasonable doubt that it's actually being said without coercion, then I think we should respect that.
Whether that means someone had a problem with their relatives/friends/etc or if they did not, case by case basis.

However, not everything is subjective, sometimes even those beloved to another can be committing what we commonly know as objective wrongdoing, and if they are going to continue in that way and cause others harm, then words will be exchanged and arguments will happen.

People are getting a little too black and white with this conversation.
I don't recall anyone ever saying that we should go after every single parent or family member of any person who commits suicide, did I miss that severe of a blanket statement?
Some words are being put into other's mouths it seems, and those same people conjuring up these words are the ones becoming so offended and oddly 'one way'-righteous about the whole ordeal.

Grief is not a veil of protection for wrongdoing-or much else, we should know that more than anyone, as members of this community experiencing our own sense of grief, grieving our own lives or perhaps even ending up in a similar position to those currently trying to smite us.
Those who run up against this site also know this and whether they like it or not-back the statement up with their own actions and words, of which they do not care whose grief stricken body they strike.
It's a two-way street.

As far as not speaking ill of the dead, is anyone here really doing that?
(Not that I completely agree with the "every deadman's a saint" charade regardless.)
I thought the vitriol was being directed at the living?
And isn't it just as deplorable to blast the doors wide open of your deceased relative's private and personal life to the public?
Because I certainly believe so, I find what these people are doing to be far from indicative of the cause they claim to stand behind and the reasons they stand behind it.
We would not even have access to all these exclusive details if it weren't for the family members outing them, members who have passed could have had all their matters resting in peace, outside of the view of gawking onlookers, but to obliterate that possibility was not the decision of any bonafide member of this community.
Not that I'm aware of anyway.

 

[Chinaski]

That's your prerogative I suppose, me on the other hand I believe anyone who uses my own death against this site deserves to be met with reflecting their own bitterness, spite, and crudeness back at them. I also personally don't think a place can even properly function as a safe haven of any sort if it's unable to protect itself against direct attacks against it but maybe that's just me. A shelter isn't worth much if the kind of thing that it exists to shelter from can be allowed to breach its walls any time and do whatever it wants while the people taking shelter just sit back and do nothing about it. Even if you don't think we should do nothing you still haven't given any specific advice yet on what actually needs to be said in order to actually come across as more mature.


Such as? Take any ugly or callous post and try proofreading it to make it seem more adult if we're so bad at it. Doing so would probably genuinely help people better understand what it is you're trying to get across instead of just acting like you're on neither side and don't care about sides when really all you're doing is bolstering their side at worst. If that sounds like too much for you then what sort of cleanup can you even hope to achieve?

I'm not sure how anything I've posted in this thread suggests I'm "bolstering their side", l mean l doubt it will be any of my posts in this thread which will be screenshotted and used to misrepresent the site by evidencing that we're devoid of the empathy we profess to prioritise.

Whichever prism you view it through, using the death of a loved one as a tool with which to goad is a shitty manoeuvre and harms, not helps, anyone's cause, it's unnecessary and easily avoided, and the arguments defending it in this thread have been frothy and insubstantial imo.

I repeat, it's not "picking a side" to point the above out, but it's also worth considering that the people who are keen on keeping this "fight" in the foreground are possibly a vocal minority of users.

Doesn't make much sense to discuss how "the forum" should act. There are many factions within the forum on all sorts of issues.

Well yeah, such as scammers, bullshitters, weird creeps, whatever. It makes no sense to ever discuss how any of this should be collectively responded to.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I'm not sure how anything I've posted in this thread suggests I'm "bolstering their side", l mean l doubt it will be any of my posts in this thread which will be screenshotted and used to misrepresent the site by evidencing that we're devoid of the empathy we profess to prioritise.

That's why I said at worst because I don't think it's actually happening but if it did happen it would probably be used by them just to continue doing what they do best. I am aware that me dragging this out would also not be helping matters either in that case but my only way of reacting to that is through frustration and by continuing to dig myself deeper. Gee if only there was some kind of direct guide for specific things to say that would show how i and anyone else like me should really be conducting themselves.

Whichever prism you view it through, using the death of a loved one as a tool with which to goad is a shitty manoeuvre and harms, not helps, anyone's cause, it's unnecessary and easily avoided, and the arguments defending it in this thread have been frothy and insubstantial imo.

They do it all the time anyway and yet their cause is flourishing and getting actual shit done so I don't think conduct is actually much of a factor when it comes to this sort of thing. I will concede it does look bad and is not the best way to react but it seems like they're having a wonderful time reacting as awfully as they want and nobody onboard with their cause bats an eye when shown evidence of their wrongdoing. If it's so easy to avoid, why does it keep happening then? It's because the leaders of these groups are going above and beyond to bring it upon themselves. I don't mean that to say they deserve the specific "it's your fault your child died" kind of talk, but at this point they should realize that's going to be a consequence of their actions whether or not it's mature or deserved.

I repeat, it's not "picking a side" to point the above out, but it's also worth considering that the people who are keen on keeping this "fight" in the foreground are possibly a vocal minority of users.

I do agree you haven't really picked a side just that your words are likely going to make you appear as someone on their side to them if they're not flat out ignored by them, which they probably would be but oh well. I used to want to stay out of this fight altogether too but I'm sick of them just having their way with no backlash simply because no one will give a good example as to how we can specifically defend ourselves maturely and respectfully.

 

[LastFlowers]

Tbf if it's somehow incumbent upon me to offer alternatives to posting about how ex-members' parents should own their responsibility for the suicide of their loved one then a starting point is going to be "this is shitty, don't fucking do it".

You've posted a lot of words in that post but the gist is either you're okay with an ex-member, now deceased, being weaponised in, imo, a disrespectful way which is used against us to illustrate our collective immaturity or you think it's perfectly fine and appropriate. I've said time and again l could not give two fucks for the illusory political battle that others here do, l could not care less about barricading against pro-lifers and certainly can't be arsed appealing to them either. This is not part of a tactical ploy to navigate our way through Those Goddam Pro Lifers because l genuinely dgaf, it's just a point of basic housekeeping about how we treat the passing of ex members of this site and the maturity with which we regard suicide. Every time that death is used as a means of taunt, as if it's our property to wield in this way, it belies the notion that we are a Compassionate Safe Haven of Empathy and Respect and instead suggests we're a community of angsty teenagers who don't know what the fuck we are talking about.

The issue is as much about how much we respect the members of this site who have passed as it is about anything else, l don't know why this needs repeating so frequently.

Do you believe the family members are not also weaponizing the deceased?
Because quite frankly, that is exactly what they're doing, they are the ones who set that precedent.
Or do you consider that fine, as that's perfectly alright to be the property of another person, as long as they aren't a stranger?

Also, I am unfamiliar with your username (or I'm just forgetting) so I'm not sure if you were around for a lot of shit that hit the fan, but based on your join date, I assume you were.
Do you not recall the taunts and childish (in their own right) remarks from many of the family members and those belonging to the Facebook groups/Twitter hoards?
(Because it is still ongoing.)

I remember writing a comment or two outlining some exact adjectives and nasty pejoratives directed at the whole of this site (I will link to you if I find the time to search for it), talk about "angsty teenagers", they were throwing every type of shit they could fumble in their hands, it was over-the-top and absolutely disgusting what they were saying, what they were threatening, even to members who are also parents of children who died by their own hand.

They called us every name in the book, they called for torture, they called for expedited suicide of every member on this site.
My blood ran cold and my face ran hot when I read some of the filth they were spreading so lightly, as if it had no consequences, as if we weren't human beings at all.
Which, ironically, all would have been directed at their own loved one if they found this place or set their date just a little bit later than the first few who had their family come out of the woodwork with their identity.

*I will say this though, I don't think stooping to their level does us any favors, and I'm sure I would agree with you on some of the more unnecessary comments that come off like a 12 year old troll is slamming them out, because I have seen some of them occasionally, I realize they exist, and yes they should be reported, as they don't add anything to the discussion-save for empty ad hominem incendiary devices that those who are against this site can use as leverage, when they aren't representative of plenty of others meaning to find support and comfort here.

 

[Chinaski]

Again though, if the best defence is that they, the people who we argue are dishonest bullshitters with a nasty agenda who sink so low we are collectively repulsed, are doing it so it's okay for us to stoop to such a low level, I'm going to remain unconvinced.

Fwiw l don't think we're as far away from agreement as may be perceived - my argument is essentially "l don't like these people, but repeatedly saying this one particular thing is low as fuck, can we just fucking not" and yours seems to be "l too think it's a bit much but find it understandable". That's a crude summary of our exchange l admit, so do correct me if you feel misrepresented, but even though you disagree with the reasoning behind my arguments l suspect we can both agree that just *not using a member's death in this way* is easily avoided without it affecting anyone's ability to discuss the deeds of those types in condemnatory terms.

I mean, it's not just those people who see a forum member's suicide utilised as a weapon to be callously wielded, it's people here too, and it's not comfortable to know that a year after any of our passing i_luv_2_ctb_69 could log in here and use it in the same disrespectful way.

Do you believe the family members are not also weaponizing the deceased?
Because quite frankly, that is exactly what they're doing, they are the ones who set that precedent.
Or do you consider that fine, as that's perfectly alright to be the property of another person, as long as they aren't a stranger?

Also, I am unfamiliar with your username (or I'm just forgetting) so I'm not sure if you were around for a lot of shit that hit the fan, but based on your join date, I assume you were.
Do you not recall the taunts and childish (in their own right) remarks from many of the family members and those belonging to the Facebook groups/Twitter hoards?
(Because it is still ongoing.)

I remember writing a comment or two outlining some exact adjectives and nasty pejoratives directed at the whole of this site (I will link to you if I find the time to search for it), talk about "angsty teenagers", they were throwing every type of shit they could fumble in their hands, it was over-the-top and absolutely disgusting what they were saying, what they were threatening, even to members who are also parents of children who died by their own hand.

They called us every name in the book, they called for torture, they called for expedited suicide of every member on this site.
My blood ran cold and my face ran hot when I read some of the filth they were spreading so lightly, as if it had no consequences, as if we weren't human beings at all.
Which, ironically, all would have been directed at their own loved one if they found this place or set their date just a little bit later than the first few who had their family come out of the woodwork with their identity.

*I will say this though, I don't think stooping to their level does us any favors, and I'm sure I would agree with you on some of the more unnecessary comments that come off like a 12 year old troll is slamming them out, because I have seen some of them occasionally, I realize they exist, and yes they should be reported, as they don't add anything to the discussion-save for empty ad hominem incendiary devices that those who are against this site can use as leverage, when they aren't representative of plenty of others meaning to find support and comfort here.

I do think they are weaponising it, certainly - but as loved ones, they are entitled to do that. We can't take the deceased away from them and claim them as our own, even though they are misguided in attributing the entire responsibility to this site it's not on us, as people who never knew them, to ventriloquise the dead back to their own family.

EDIT: first part in reply to @Dr Iron Arc but l fucked up the quote, apologies.

 

[Somber]

I'm not quite sure what you mean to say by "the dead don't require emotional support",
what exactly are you referring to, as actions that fall under "emotional support" of the deceased?

Let me clarify.

Most of us on this forum here are suffering for various reasons. Some are dealing with frustrations regarding their parents that are legit such as physical or mental abuse. These are matters that ought to be turned over to the proper authorities so they can deal with those parents. I'm simplifying, since I realize that's easier said than done.

Other parents might simply be under an enormous amount of stress as they realize that their child is suicidal. Good parents will do anything in their power so their children can lead good lives, but most of them won't be able to cope with wishes of those children to die. This is not abuse, but might be interpreted as such by those children.

It's important that people here receive emotional support either on their way to recovery or their way to the bus and if you want to support them when they complain about their parents, please do, but after they are dead, there is no longer any reason to continue bashing the parents that just lost their child and are grieving, even if they blame you, us, the website, whatever.

So, if someone makes known how they feel and what they want, beyond any reasonable doubt that it's actually being said without coercion, then I think we should respect that.
Whether that means someone had a problem with their relatives/friends/etc or if they did not, case by case basis.

We should absolutely respect people's wishes to die. Though if there are other solutions they could be happy with, that would not require them to die, we should also provide those. It's all about choice, but you can't choose options you are unaware of.

People are getting a little too black and white with this conversation.
I don't recall anyone ever saying that we should go after every single parent or family member of any person who commits suicide, did I miss that severe of a blanket statement?
Some words are being put into other's mouths it seems, and those same people conjuring up these words are the ones becoming so offended and oddly 'one way'-righteous about the whole ordeal.

My post was not directed at anyone in particular, I was speaking hypothetically.

Grief is not a veil of protection for wrongdoing-or much else, we should know that more than anyone, as members of this community experiencing our own sense of grief, grieving our own lives or perhaps even ending up in a similar position to those currently trying to smite us.
Those who run up against this site also know this and whether they like it or not-back the statement up with their own actions and words, of which they do not care whose grief stricken body they strike.
It's a two-way street.

Grief is not a protection of the authorities either. If those parents abused their children than they should be held accountable by handing whatever proof we have to the proper authorities (with permission of the child of course). Not only would we be righting a wrong in the world, SS might receive
some positive recognition. If we do not have any proof, there is nothing to achieve by bashing them either. Maybe the abuse took place, maybe it was only perceived as such. If there is no way to know what is true or not, maybe we shouldn't be taking a position in the argument either.

As for the good parents, let them grief in their own way, even if that means blaming SS. Let's not stare ourselves so blind on our own problems to the point that we no longer recognize and empathize with the grief of others. They can't take the website down if it's not breaking any laws (I hope).

Let's keep the moral high ground.