Discussion US-Judge suspends executions - pentobarbital is likely to cause extreme pain?

[whereisfreedom]

"Scientific evidence presented to the court clearly indicates that the 2019 protocol is likely to cause extreme pain and senseless suffering to those sentenced during the execution," Chutkan's statement said. Accordingly, administration of a high dose of pentobarbital barbiturate causes fluid accumulation in the lungs, which could lead to feelings of suffocation.

News from this german newspaper (use google translator): https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/jus...en-aus-a-b44cf9e0-f63c-4a74-b7c9-870bf27e70f9

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

The title of this thread is misleading.

Followed by the selective nature of the text quoted.

Note that it is the protocol which is said to be likely to cause extreme pain and suffering.

Does the article say pentobarbital is the only drug in the protocol? What are the others?



Edit: I just read the article. First, it was a political decision regarding a highly polarizing topic, the the death penalty, and the decision was delivered as a last-minute reprieve for the first federal inmate since 2003 to be executed. He was to be executed today, this decision stopped it. Second, there was an omission of a wealth of necessary information and context in the article -- the protocol, and the documentation that explained the conditions for fluid accumulation in the lungs.

This is why it's important to recognize when fear is being stirred up, because it overrides executive functions such as critical thinking.

OP, I'm going to offer some unsolicited advice. If you don't want to fearmonger and actually want people to be informed, change the thread title to something accurate, and copy and paste the entire text of the article, not just the scary part and the link, which people may not click on. It's a very short article.

Otherwise, this raises suspicion to me that it is a pro-life move at a time when the site is under daily attack via infiltration. Even if it is not such a move, it certainly supports that agenda by the way in which it is presented.

 

[4eyebiped]

His subject had a question mark and was not delivered as a statement. He cited the article for others to click and read, not his fault if people like me are lazy, and he gave advice on how to translate it to ensure others could read it. I see no problem in how this was delivered.

Perhaps, I haven't been around long enough to get paranoid about pro-lifers. I took the post to be one out of concern and/or curiosity.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

His subject had a question mark and was not delivered as a statement. He cited the article for others to click and read, not his fault if people like me are lazy, and he gave advice on how to translate it to ensure others could read it. I see no problem in how this was delivered.

Perhaps, I haven't been around long enough to get paranoid about pro-lifers. I took the post to be one out of concern and/or curiosity.

Attempting to knock me down is not a cogent argument against my words, but an attack against me in an attempt to divert from the weakness of the position you defend.

Take care.

 

[4eyebiped]

Attempting to knock me down is not a cogent argument against my words, but an attack against me in an attempt to divert from the weakness of a position.

Take care.

I made no such attempts. How in the world is what I said an attack against you? I gave my opinion just as you gave yours. I believe we all have the right to give our opinions, unless you feel only your opinion on this site matters? I don't believe you feel that way, so I am confused.

I stand by what I said and I think what I said was perfectly reasonable.

EDIT: I am always open to a civil conversation, but I rather it be in a separate thread or through PM as to not derail someone's post.

 

[Soul]

I tried to have a look at the article but there were too many intrusive pop-ups. I know there have been lots of problems with lethal-injection executions in the US - outdated drugs, off-brand substitutions, protests that cutting corners had led to unexpectedly painful scenarios, etc. Is that what this article is about?

And while I'm here ... @GoodPersonEffed, could you point out some examples of what you mean by the attacks via infiltration you see on a daily basis? I always miss things and would appreciate a few examples. Thanks.

 

[autumnal]

Attempting to knock me down is not a cogent argument against my words, but an attack against me in an attempt to divert from the weakness of the position you defend.

Take care.

I'm afraid you are completely off the rails here, and writing so grandiosely doesn't mean your words carry any greater validity. There was no attempt to 'knock you down', @4eyebiped was very clearly refuting your arguments based on their interpretation of the original post (in exactly the same manner you did), not in any way attacking you personally.

Unless you're also admitting there was a preceding identical attempt by yourself to knock @whereisfreedom down? And does this mean I'm knocking you down by factually referring to @4eyebiped's knocking down of your knocking down of the OP? And thus we all end up resembling this...

 

[whereisfreedom]

The title of this thread is misleading.

Followed by the selective nature of the text quoted.

Note that it is the protocol which is said to be likely to cause extreme pain and suffering.

Does the article say pentobarbital is the only drug in the protocol? What are the others?



Edit: I just read the article. First, it was a political decision regarding a highly polarizing topic, the the death penalty, and the decision was delivered as a last-minute reprieve for the first federal inmate since 2003 to be executed. He was to be executed today, this decision stopped it. Second, there was an omission of a wealth of necessary information and context in the article -- the protocol, and the documentation that explained the conditions for fluid accumulation in the lungs.

This is why it's important to recognize when fear is being stirred up, because it overrides executive functions such as critical thinking.

OP, I'm going to offer some unsolicited advice. If you don't want to fearmonger and actually want people to be informed, change the thread title to something accurate, and copy and paste the entire text of the article, not just the scary part and the link, which people may not click on. It's a very short article.

Otherwise, this raises suspicion to me that it is a pro-life move at a time when the site is under daily attack via infiltration. Even if it is not such a move, it certainly supports that agenda by the way in which it is presented.

Holy shit. This paranoia here about pro-life is annoying. It has gotten worse since I quit from this board.
Yes, yes... I am pro-life. I am one of the biggest pro-life dude.

And now, good night. This community has become more toxic than it was months ago. I don't give a shit anymore (here in this community) what others in their paranoia think of what I wrote above.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

And while I'm here ... @GoodPersonEffed, could you point out some examples of what you mean by the attacks via infiltration you see on a daily basis? I always miss things and would appreciate a few examples. Thanks.

It's been going on for at least two weeks. Many posts get deleted and infiltrators banned. @MorticiasHair was banned last week, her pro-life posts attacking younger members on goodbye threads were deleted. I can't off the top of my head recall who's been banned since.

From yesterday:

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/death-to-liberate.42994/post-783720

From three days ago:

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/i-just-want-to-help.42853/

__________________________

@autumnal, arguing against my comment by calling me paranoid is an ad hominem attack, a knock-down. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It says my comment is wrong because I myself am inherently wrong. Of course you would deny that, redefine it, and defend it, because such moves are a part of your own cherished argument style. And now, calling my writing grandiose is both knock-down and projection -- it is you who bolsters authoritative bluster by using bold type and underlining and whose voice is like a parochial school teacher, every day moralizing to the forum while treating people like uneducated, immoral, unwashed masses. You have never once argued against anything I've ever said with reason or fact, or if you did, you still combined it with knock-downs, diversions, and reframes. You have yet in any argument with me to educate me, and I am always on the lookout to learn something of value.

I am quite done with you and your constant toxicity toward others and myself. You enjoy it and don't want to change it. I don't enjoy it, I receive no value from interacting with you, and you don't merit any more of my attention or serenity. I sincerely wish for your well-being. Goodbye.

 

[faust]

Extreme pain due to pentobarbital is something that I cannot believe in. There are enough videos on YouTube with assisted suicides using this substance and I believe in what I see. Especially this one looks great:

 

[autumnal]

[...]
@autumnal, arguing against my comment by calling me paranoid is an ad hominem attack, a knock-down. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It says my comment is wrong because I myself am inherently wrong. Of course you would deny that, redefine it, and defend it, because such moves are a part of your own cherished argument style. And now, calling my writing grandiose is both knock-down and projection -- it is you who bolsters authoritative bluster by using bold type and underlining and whose voice is like a parochial school teacher, every day moralizing to the forum while treating people like uneducated, immoral, unwashed masses. You have never once argued against anything I've ever said with reason or fact, or if you did, you still combined it with knock-downs, diversions, and reframes. You have yet in any argument with me to educate me, and I am always on the lookout to learn something of value.

I am quite done with you and your constant toxicity toward others and myself. You enjoy it and don't want to change it. I don't enjoy it, I receive no value from interacting with you, and you don't merit any more of my attention or serenity. I sincerely wish for your well-being. Goodbye.

I don't recall calling you paranoid anywhere, although it is quite telling that you used that particular term of your own volition

Everything else you have stated above is just a personal attack with no relevance or reference to my arguments, probably because you realise you can't logically rebut my arguments, nor apparently even dare to quote them above your response.

I'm not sure what the intention or meaning is behind your dramatic 'goodbye' comments. Are you meaning you're going to ignore my posts, both in the technical sense of the forum feature and in the emotional sense of not reading them and thus stopping the prompting of your personal attacks on me? If so, that is a course of action I can only wholeheartedly recommend as being long overdue.

 

[HadEnough1974]

Attempting to knock me down is not a cogent argument against my words, but an attack against me in an attempt to divert from the weakness of the position you defend.

Take care.

Ouch
Omg ok people,

I usually throw in a joke here and there but we're all people who are hurting and struggling. No jokes in this post.

I won't call people out by name but I just want to say that I've always read and appreciated the careful and methodical analysis of the two who are sparring on this thread.

You are both better writers and express yourselves better than I do.

At the end of the day, we're all hurting. Let's be kinder to each other.

 

[deedee0225]

Extreme pain due to pentobarbital is something that I cannot believe in. There are enough videos on YouTube with assisted suicides using this substance and I believe in what I see. Especially this one looks great:

The exact words coming out of her mouth: "I'm falling asleep. It feels good." When she says it she looked genuinely at peace. Do we need more evidence than this?

 

[Soul]

Bypassing the fireworks display ...

@GoodPersonEffed, thanks for the examples of anti-choice posters. I had noticed a couple of those but didn't think it was a full-on Infiltration Attack. Was there some particular catalyst to it? Did that recent thread about the FB group and their petition trigger something, or ... ?

Meanwhile, I read a bit of the English-language coverage of the postponement of that execution. I won't post links here because the articles require reading background pieces to understand what's going on. It seems to be a very legalistic deal about whether it's allowable to execute someone by a different protocol than the one prescribed by the state (or federal system in this case).

Update

Here's some clear information on various lethal-injection protocols:

Overview of Lethal Injection Protocols

The Death Penalty Information Center is a non-profit organization serving the media and the public with analysis and information about capital punishment.…

deathpenaltyinfo.org

And I've deleted a bunch of incorrect statements I'd made. See below for the actual reasons for the postponement.

 

[Uzera]

This is why it's important to recognize when fear is being stirred up, because it overrides executive functions such as critical thinking.

This. You can apply this to so many things in life.

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

If I were a smart prolifer, one of the ways I'd dissuade users from trying the methods prescribed here on ss is by sowing seeds of doubt. Let's be honest, any half-assed research on pentobarbital will show you how peaceful it is for ctb. There's not just documentation but also numerous videos on the same.

Recently there were a lot of 'goodbye' threads seemingly showing how painful ctb via SN is. These were made by either N scammers or prolifers. We should be on the lookout for those who would mislead the vulnerable among us. Not everyone on here can recognize these type of scams. That's what they are, shameful, misleading scams.

 

[Soul]

Some more information from the news about the court's decision to postpone the execution:

"U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan said [inmates filing against the use of pentobarbital alone] have presented evidence showing that the government's plan to use only pentobarbital to carry out the executions 'poses an unconstitutionally significant risk of serious pain.'
Chutkan said the inmates produced evidence that, in other executions, prisoners who were given pentobarbital suffered 'flash pulmonary edema,' which she said interferes with breathing and produces sensations of drowning and strangulation.
The inmates have identified alternatives, including the use of an opioid or anti-anxiety drug at the start of the procedure or a different method altogether, a firing squad, Chutkan said."

Judge halts federal executions, delaying first planned execution in 17 years once again

Murderer Daniel Lewis Lee was slated to die by lethal injection even though the victim's family objects due, among other things, to concern they could be exposed to the coronavirus by attending.

www.cbsnews.com

I don't know the basis of the inmates' argument but there it is. I don't know if it could be based on anti-choice propaganda. It makes my brain itch when I try to imagine anti-choicers trying to scare death-row inmates into preferring firing squads ... but what do I know.

In any case @whereisfreedom isn't the one claiming pentobarbital causes distress; s/he just posted the news, with (as @4eyebiped noted) a well-aimed question mark that I concur with.

 

[MaisieWilliamsLover]

The title of this thread is misleading.

Followed by the selective nature of the text quoted.

Note that it is the protocol which is said to be likely to cause extreme pain and suffering.

Does the article say pentobarbital is the only drug in the protocol? What are the others?



Edit: I just read the article. First, it was a political decision regarding a highly polarizing topic, the the death penalty, and the decision was delivered as a last-minute reprieve for the first federal inmate since 2003 to be executed. He was to be executed today, this decision stopped it. Second, there was an omission of a wealth of necessary information and context in the article -- the protocol, and the documentation that explained the conditions for fluid accumulation in the lungs.

This is why it's important to recognize when fear is being stirred up, because it overrides executive functions such as critical thinking.

OP, I'm going to offer some unsolicited advice. If you don't want to fearmonger and actually want people to be informed, change the thread title to something accurate, and copy and paste the entire text of the article, not just the scary part and the link, which people may not click on. It's a very short article.

Otherwise, this raises suspicion to me that it is a pro-life move at a time when the site is under daily attack via infiltration. Even if it is not such a move, it certainly supports that agenda by the way in which it is presented.

Nuts.

 

[Aap]

Supreme Court vacated this and noted that prisoners have for years argued FOR pentobarbital as a LESS painful method of execution. This was just last minute political posturing, and no one here should read anything in to it other than that. The executions will proceed.

This was an unusually fast ruling that was released at 2am today.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/20a8_970e.pdf

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Otherwise, this raises suspicion to me that it is a pro-life move at a time when the site is under daily attack via infiltration. Even if it is not such a move, it certainly supports that agenda by the way in which it is presented.

Holy shit. This paranoia here about pro-life is annoying. It has gotten worse since I quit from this board...

This community has become more toxic than it was months ago. I don't give a shit anymore (here in this community) what others in their paranoia think of what I wrote above.

I made a suggestion, I supported my reasoning for the suggestion. It's quite a leap from raised suspicion to paranoia and toxicity. @whereisfreedom, would you be willing to define what paranoia and toxicity mean to you, so that I understand how you are defining me and my actions?

Interesting to me that when you yourself have had concerns and made suggestions, you didn't mention that you were in paranoia and being toxic.

For reference, you actively participated and made suggestions in the threads Forum is being watched, needs more security and regarding scammers on this site in Megathread getting n from a. Is it not also annoying, paranoid and toxic to dislike LE or scammer infiltration and be wary of it?

 

[Meditation guide]

There might be pro lifers here and stay aware when you read things that could be an agenda like that but please ignore the drama when it starts by not responding to it. It would give us all a break.


We can tell when someone is engaging in drama by how many times they say "you" in their post. Finger pointing. You said this and you said that. Watch for that and don't respond.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

There might be pro lifers here and stay aware when you read things that could be an agenda like that but please ignore the drama when it starts by not responding to it. It would give us all a break.


We can tell when someone is engaging in drama by how many times they say "you" in their post. Finger pointing. You said this and you said that. Watch for that and don't respond.

Ah I see. When someone stands up for or defends themselves against pro-life or any other targeting tactics by identifying specific behaviors and actions, then they, too, are abusive toward the forum. Got it.