Discussion Thoughts on having children

[rhiino]

Healthy people who choose not to procreate and unhealthy people who do choose to procreate are of the utmost of selfish imho

In the face of overpopulation it cannot be selfish to not procreate. It does not matter how healthy people are, if the environment is breaking down they will suffer.

 

[Wayfaerer]

In the face of overpopulation it cannot be selfish to not procreate. It does not matter how healthy people are, if the environment is breaking down they will suffer.

The third world is facing overpopulation, the first world has declining birthrates.

 

[SoIntoYou]

Who should decide what the criteria for a "license to have children" be? What is excluded and what is not? In our western society that would probably result in rich pricks that trash the environment with their wasteful lifestyle, enslave people in third world countries with their money and have an asshole personality but "good" genes and much money having the right to get children, but kindhearted people with a very basic life do not.

Malpractice is everywhere, I don't know how you cannot see that it would not work.

How do you come to that conclusion? Long ago when survival of the fittest still applied people were happy, as animals living in nature are. As the world slowly got so developed that it applied less and less the world got fucked up more and more and here we are: Today survival of the fittest is gone, it is more survival of the most ruthless or maybe even survival of everybody for the sake of limited suffering short-term, even if it creates far more suffering long term.

Not to be offensive, but you're asking a lot of questions and saying "probably" instead of giving examples. For all the things that could go wrong with a more restrictive system, it could be done right in many ways. Prevention is a much better method than treatment and there are many red flags people like social workers wish they could act on before things get out of hand. Obvious things like criminal records, unstable and abusive housing situations just to name a few. Genes, and even family history of mental illness, should play not role.

Survival of the fittest is gone? How do you think these ruthless people see themselves? I would love for you to explain to me how "survival of everybody" could create more suffering in the long term.

 

[Nachos]

Personally, what breaks my heart the most is seeing depressed, mentally ill, or suicidal children. I don't plan on having any since my family has a long history of passing down chronic illnesses and personality disorders. I don't think I should adopt either since I'm seriously considering suicide, what if I go through with it? I don't want any chances of them being suicidal as well.
I have lots of love to give, but i'm scared it might not be enough. I want them to enjoy being alive, but there's only so much a parent can do once they face the world.

 

[checkouttime]

Ive never wanted/had kids......one of me in this world is way more than enough

 

[rhiino]

I would love for you to explain to me how "survival of everybody" could create more suffering in the long term.

You really don't see how absence of natural selection (meaning the most healthy genes survive) creates more suffering in the long term? It obviously does so by a continuously degrading gene pool, bringing more illness and suffering.

 

[SoIntoYou]

You really don't see how absence of natural selection (meaning the most healthy genes survive) creates more suffering in the long term? It obviously does so by a continuously degrading gene pool, bringing more illness and suffering.

OK man, I'm pretty sure you're just being a textbook generalist and a comfort zone idealist instead of a thinker and a realist. Let me explain. First of all, evolution doesn't work the way most people think. When some people think of "survival of the fittest", they think of some guy going to gym, getting ripped and learning tai-kwon-do, when in reality, two normal, sensible dudes could take that one try hard in a fight. Our greatest strength as humans is our sense of community which we get through our developed sense of empathy - very important. I understand not wanting to breed deformities and disease, but those are few and far between, not mention very unpredictable. That argument does not hold water.
Not only does evolution not work like most people think, but natural selection doesn't work like you think. This new sense of community and including everybody, weaknesses and all, IS our modern form of NS. Denying this leads to what you and I talked about earlier, people who think they are better than others, oppressing them, teaching their kids the same thing, so on and so forth, leading to the shit show we have today, and holding us back as a species in general.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

The idea of bringing an innocent child to this world horrifies me... even the highest qualities of life are still low quality in a bigger picture hence I never became serious in any of my relationships ... my best friend died of cancer within 5-6 months and I witnessed what his mom went through ... there is an old saying "lucky ones are those never been born"

This is exactly how I feel. Those that were never born are the lucky ones because the rest of us are stuck here until we can find a way to escape, but for some reason the world and the people around us do everything they can to prevent us from doing so. Since this topic has been opened up again, I must say that it's ironic that I discovered this thread today, after having just been with some family members of mine who happened to go into their pro-life BS because the topic of abortion (I know this is a different topic, but I think it's closely related to anti-natalism) randomly came up. They said things like "Children are a gift from God, blah blah blah..." and I had to put on my fake smile and try not to throw up into my mouth. Thankfully this type of thing is rarely discussed and I like being around them most of the time for different reasons, so it's easy enough to tolerate this shit when it does appear. Since I prefer to avoid conflict whenever possible, I kept my thoughts to myself, but I wanted to say that aborting them would be a good thing since it spares them from having to survive in this horrible world of ours. Unfortunately I would have ripped Pandora's box wide open if I said that.

Since I've been thinking about it a bit more on my own, I realized just how disturbing that kind of reasoning is. The implication is that the child is some new toy being given away by an unseen manufacturer, to be used and abused by the recipient. For those unfortunate enough to be born into a family with a narcissistic parent (or parents), this kind of thinking would be a good way for the abuser to justify their behavior. I realize that not all parents are abusive or narcissistic, but children are still being born into this hellhole whether they like it or not because people think that way and it's impossible to predict how many of those children will end up suicidal (like me) and how many will not.

I honestly wish I had been lucky enough to have not been born, then I wouldn't be stuck here because I'm too afraid of hurting other people by CTB. I've been told in the past that I am here for a reason and they are right, but in my case, my own parents' selfishness is the reason.

 

[rhiino]

OK man, I'm pretty sure you're just being a textbook generalist and a comfort zone idealist instead of a thinker and a realist. Let me explain. First of all, evolution doesn't work the way most people think. When some people think of "survival of the fittest", they think of some guy going to gym, getting ripped and learning tai-kwon-do, when in reality, two normal, sensible dudes could take that one try hard in a fight. Our greatest strength as humans is our sense of community which we get through our developed sense of empathy - very important. I understand not wanting to breed deformities and disease, but those are few and far between, not mention very unpredictable. That argument does not hold water.
Not only does evolution not work like most people think, but natural selection doesn't work like you think. This new sense of community and including everybody, weaknesses and all, IS our modern form of NS. Denying this leads to what you and I talked about earlier, people who think they are better than others, oppressing them, teaching their kids the same thing, so on and so forth, leading to the shit show we have today, and holding us back as a species in general.

You are sitting on a high horse there. Just let the ad hominems aside. You try to explain natural selection with our modern world, while it is not even clear if there still is any natural selection at all. After all natural selection involves creatures dying or not getting the chance to procreate. Both things are highly unlikely in our modern world for humans. Actually I think evolution and natural selection do not work like you think yourself. When I talk about natural selection I talk about the scenario nature really made us for, stone age. You cannot explain natural selection with today's world, like you would not try to explain an animal's natural behaviour by using a zoo animal as an example.

The third world is facing overpopulation, the first world has declining birthrates.

The third world has declining birthrates as well. Nearly every country has declining birthrates. That is no argument against overpopulation, as the growth of the population is relevant there and in times of globalization it is not wise to differentiate between countries anyway.

 

[strawberryfield]

it would be nice but i have really bad genetics so the child would probably end up suffering and i feel like i'd be a bad parent too

 

[SoIntoYou]

You are sitting on a high horse there. Just let the ad hominems aside. You try to explain natural selection with our modern world, while it is not even clear if there still is any natural selection at all. After all natural selection involves creatures dying or not getting the chance to procreate. Both things are highly unlikely in our modern world for humans. Actually I think evolution and natural selection do not work like you think yourself. When I talk about natural selection I talk about the scenario nature really made us for, stone age. You cannot explain natural selection with today's world, like you would not try to explain an animal's natural behaviour by using a zoo animal as an example.

I think my being on a high horse predicates me saying that I'm better than you in some way. Did I say that? Same thing with your second sentence. Did I say anything about your character to nullify your point? Third sentence - yea that was my point. Natural selection, if it should even still be called that, is completely different from what you were taught in textbooks. Even though that yes, you're right that nobody can fully explain natural selection in today's world, I think I explained modern evolution OK enough to convince you that you're wrong. If I cannot explain natural selection with today's world, you can't either, so I'd direct you to the earlier posts you made that started this whole conversation. I'm sorry if you think I'm being mean. I'm not, I'm being sharp and when I think you're wrong about something I want to cut to the heart of the issue.

 

[FullCircle]

I dont want children, it's a personal choice. I dont even babysit young kids because it gives me so much anxiety. Im not mentally healthy enough to take care of another human being right now.
If I ever am stable enough, I've considered becoming a foster parent. My parents did it and I saw how much those kids need someone to love them. Plus so many foster parents are awful, there needs to be more good ones.

 

[Human2020]

Until recently the thought of having children and a "happy family" one day was literally the one and only thing that kept me alive but I've realised that it wouldn't magically solve my problems and so I would still not have found happiness in this life. I'd also inevitably try to live through my children and so I would quite obviously still not be free. If my life were to depend on them what about when they'll leave the house and live their independent adult life? What if a horrible accident were to happen to them? What if my wife divorced me? I'd rather commit suicide this year rather than a couple decades from now when the pain will be even more extreme after so much energy spent for vain efforts.

 

[Despairing]

It's a bit of a conundrum, because in order to justify having children, the world needs to get better. But, in order for the world to get better, there needs to be slow, generational change. How can you do that without having children? I think our best bet is to require a license to have children, which includes financial requirements and personality tests, among other things.

That is stupid and unrealistic.

 

[SoIntoYou]

That is stupid and unrealistic.

Yea OK, but if your true intent was to actually convince me, you'd tell me why. I'd love to talk about it, because I'm not 100% sold on the idea.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

My husband and I are taking care of our 6-year old niece this weekend. I think it's gone well, mostly. She's had a great time showing us her American Girl doll and Snuff-a-luvs (which I just learned about today). We've played with LEGO for hours, gone on walks with the dog, played MarioKart, watched "Full House," played games on Alexa, gone shopping, and had a dance party to KidzBop videos on YouTube, complete with party hats and balloons.

Even so, the weekend has convinced me to not have kids. It's strange. I got married because I wanted a family. I always wanted kids. But I've been dealing with a pretty rough depressive episode this weekend. I have had to hide myself in my room several times, but I can pretend to be fine when I'm up and about, playing with her. I guess I jut don't want a child to have to grow up with a parent like me, someone for whom depression could potentially overwhelm positive development.

 

[Despairing]

I dont want children, it's a personal choice. I dont even babysit young kids because it gives me so much anxiety. Im not mentally healthy enough to take care of another human being right now.
If I ever am stable enough, I've considered becoming a foster parent. My parents did it and I saw how much those kids need someone to love them. Plus so many foster parents are awful, there needs to be more good ones.

That is very thoughtful and kind.

 

[SipSop]

I've seen this meme and I looked for this thread.

I wish I had children, because I believe I would have been a great parent. But this meme might resonate with some of you guys.

 

[Mr2005]

Leave them to it ffs

 

[RottenDeer]

I don't want children. Never wanted them. But I can understand people who want.

 

[ocd is bad]

I'm not going to have kids because I wish my parents did the same with me. But here I am I guess.

 

[_Kaira_]

I used to want them. Still do to an extent. But I'm always reminded I shouldn't for many reasons. I may be a carrier of lesch-nyhan syndrome for one. It's what made my brother slowly wither away. The poor kid was 5 years old. I do not want to gamble that with my own kids....a 25% chance my son could have the same fate? 25% chance that my daughter would pass it to her kids? No thank you...besides I don't even know if I can have kids anyway....

And then there's the fact I have overall bad genetics in general. With my mental problems? Least thing I want to do is put that on any child. I didn't want to be born into this world, why would I continue the cycle? I find it hypocritical. Plenty of already unwanted children in this world already...don't need to have more kids suffer when there's plenty who needs a family and could use a chance at somewhat of a normal life already.