Discussion Those who support or identify with non-binary gender ideology, why?

[Pessimist]

I believe that non-binary gender ideology reinforces gender stereotypes instead of breaking them. Society progresses by expanding what men and women can be, and not by creating new labels for nonconformity.

 

[U. A.]

Erase intersex people less.

 

[Pessimist]

Erase intersex people less.

It's a rare medical condition, and in most cases it'a still clear whether the person is male or female. Rare exceptions don't redefine the rule.

 

[U. A.]

it'a still clear whether the person is male or female

How, pray tell, are male and female defined?

 

[Pessimist]

How, pray tell, are male and female defined?

They are defined by basic biological roles in reproduction. It's clear which category someone falls into.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

They are defined by basic biological roles in reproduction. It's clear which category someone falls into.

Oh, you're definitely a cis man if you genuinely have no idea about PCOS and other types of internal or hormonal intersexuality.

I believe that non-binary gender ideology reinforces gender stereotypes instead of breaking them. Society progresses by expanding what men and women can be, and not by creating new labels for nonconformity.

You're the one reinforcing gender stereotypes if you think people transition because of what women/men can or cannot be. Gender is an internal thing, and being nonbinary wouldn't be erased even if women or men had no expectations from society whatsoever.

Honestly, if you don't "feel" your gender and only base it on the societal standards of what people say you are, I'd suggest looking into gender agnosticism. Because you are not the norm.

 

[Pessimist]

Oh, you're definitely a cis man if you genuinely have no idea about PCOS and other types of internal or hormonal intersexuality.

You're the one reinforcing gender stereotypes if you think people transition because of what women/men can or cannot be. Gender is an internal thing, and being nonbinary wouldn't be erased even if women or men had no expectations from society whatsoever.

Honestly, if you don't "feel" your gender and only base it on the societal standards of what people say you are, I'd suggest looking into gender agnosticism. Because you are not the norm.

PCOS is a hormonal condition some women have, not a separate sex or gender category. It doesn't support your claims regarding non-binary gender ideology.

Also, I didn't talk about sex transitioning. I'm talking about people who claim to be neither man nor woman, which doesn't make sense.

 

[U. A.]

I'm talking about people who claim to be neither man nor woman, which doesn't make sense.

Dude, I know you know how to use the fucking internet:

Third gender - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you wanna covertly push your bullshit oppressive ideology go to reddit.
Don't even bother replying to this without opening that link btw

 

[Dejected 55]

Gender as a spectrum goes back a lot longer in human history as a concept than most people seem willing to admit. I won't get into the details of it, but there's a lot of historical information about people considering well more than 3 genders. Like a lot of things about humans, a spectrum makes sense... and when you have a spectrum, the possibility of non-binary comes up. I think maybe "non-binary" is not an accurate term really the more I think about it... because we have men, we have women, and we have the rest of the spectrum... non-binary tends to imply neither male nor female as if those are the only options, but when you accept the spectrum concept, non-binary doesn't really work for you because you're recognizing more than a binary setup already.

In some ways it is a shame we feel the need to label and categorize people anyway, because that process is necessarily limiting in that you try to put people in boxes whether they exactly fit that box or not.

Relative to the OP question... I don't understand fully what it would be like to be non-binary as the term is usually meant. I clearly feel male as I was born, but over time I also recognized that my idea of being male is clearly different from the societal norm as I don't fit many of the qualifications of what males are expected to be... so, I'm somewhere on the spectrum, closer to being male than anything else, but I'm not all the way there apparently.

 

[slowlydying2mrrw]

I believe that non-binary gender ideology reinforces gender stereotypes instead of breaking them. Society progresses by expanding what men and women can be, and not by creating new labels for nonconformity.

YES.... and even if you didn't want to binary, you're now limited to a belief system based on social values that rely on conformity to alter your value system.

I feel the same about labeling people's ethnic background based in color. As a yellow person, I'm perceived one way and a fixed way, a societal do gooder (or a Chinese or Japanese). If I was white, I'm most likely racist. If I'm black or brown, Im probably a gang member. :/

How, pray tell, are male and female defined?

What is your definition of intersex or "Hermaphroditism" as it's called? There are anatomical and biological differences that distinguish the two besides having a vagina or testicles.

Technically, the clitoris is a penis to the human anatomy and then biology takes over along with cell biochemistry and then enlarges/shrinks the other.

With intersex/hermaphrodtism, they can have both.

PCOS is a hormonal condition some women have, not a separate sex or gender category. It doesn't support your claims regarding non-binary gender ideology.

Also, I didn't talk about sex transitioning. I'm talking about people who claim to be neither man nor woman, which doesn't make sense.

Dude I love you

PCOS is a hormonal condition some women have, not a separate sex or gender category. It doesn't support your claims regarding non-binary gender ideology.

Also, I didn't talk about sex transitioning. I'm talking about people who claim to be neither man nor woman, which doesn't make sense.

Dude I love you

Dude, I know you know how to use the fucking internet:

Third gender - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you wanna covertly push your bullshit oppressive ideology go to reddit.
Don't even bother replying to this without opening that link btw

your links have no unreliable sources to history of 2000-3000 years ago in terms of quantifying the belief system of a third gender within ancient societies. Maybe their version of it is more extra terrestrial and Alien? It's easy to infer to what the past thought, in a Wikipedia link with no cited sources. But that's what makes it harder to study the social aspects of the past..... We can't see it and half the stories are based on fables.

Might as well cite the bible as historical truth because this is the equivalence of that. After all, religion loves to cite the fables of Egyptian gods and parallel them with Christian fables....

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Not keen on seeing potential transphobes flock to this like crows to a carcass just because seeing anyone who shares their opinion gets them hard (even if a lot of the stuff they claim can be disproven by a simple Google search + critical thinking skills)

...so I'm going to state my case and leave this thread:

Gender has been a spectrum since before your bloodline even began. The indigenous people where you live have known of it since the beginning. You are but a speck compares to the billions of nonbinary, intersex, GNC (etc) people throughout history.

They are historically documented (and I suggest you actually use Google to search this before making a fool out of yourself next time), but some are not, for the same reason some trans hate crimes are just simply labeled "murders"—if society isn't knowledgeable enough, they just label it as what they know. A "woman who dressed manly" might just be called that, but to his friends he may have identified otherwise.

Anyone on this thread who thinks that identifying as nonbinary because the idea of being a woman/man does not "feel like you" means you are "reinforcing stereotypes" is projecting.

Just because you think all nonbinary people dress androgynous and have societally androgynous interests, does not mean that is the truth. If all nonbinary people dressed as androgynous and refused to like sports or ballet, then I'd agree, but they don't. Your view of the world is limited.

I'd tell you about my nonbinary friends who dress completely binary, but then you'd contradict your own point and say "why do they identify as nonbinary then "


Nonbinary is an internal identity. Just because you base your idea of being a man or a woman on how society defines them, does not mean nonbinary people view gender that narrowly.

I am a man that dresses and acts extremely femininely, even looking feminine enough that I am called a girl regularly. I am still a man, and my view of my personal manliness includes dressing in skirts and painting my nails.

A nonbinary person could dress the same and have that be their view of their personal gender identity. Black and white thinking is not conducive to intelligent thought.

 

[neurotoxic]

you're overthinking it, they don't create stereotypes any more than men or women do. theyre normal people who prefer to use a label they identify with, no reason for me to question their validity. Also, asking those people to "prove" their existence is an inherently rigged game because a bad faith debater can simply go "well how do you know?" and reject their sources/arguments in bad faith (which im seeing in this thread) and engage in limitless skepticism instead of listening and actually learning about them.
also you really cant accuse someone of reinforcing stereotypes just for appearing/identifying/existing in a certain manner without elaborating on how they're doing that. and I have the feeling that most people who recycle that accusation reinforce just as many stereotypes because we all grew up in a very rigid society. Usually they simply don't like the label, which, is a strange thing to fixate on.

 

[Pluto]

Is Chiikawa a Boy or Girl? Everything You Need to Know

Is Chiikawa a boy or girl? Explore everything about this viral kawaii character, its origins, and why fans can’t stop debating on it.

chiikawa-merch.com

 

[U. A.]

your links have no unreliable sources

Correct.

psst @NormallyNeurotic...OP has no intention of being open-minded...

 

[slowlydying2mrrw]

Correct.

psst @NormallyNeurotic...OP has no intention of being open-minded...

Two words after I saw the Sumerian tablets in the wiki: Ancient Aliens... ☠

 

[slowlydying2mrrw]

Not keen on seeing potential transphobes flock to this like crows to a carcass just because seeing anyone who shares their opinion gets them hard (even if a lot of the stuff they claim can be disproven by a simple Google search + critical thinking skills)

That's a transphobe thing to say. One of my best friends is Trans. Amazing human being. I didn't say anything transphobic, you just don't like what I say and therefore, rationalize it as hate speech.

...so I'm going to state my case and leave this thread:

Gender has been a spectrum since before your bloodline even began. The indigenous people where you live have known of it since the beginning. You are but a speck compares to the billions of nonbinary, intersex, GNC (etc) people throughout history.

Are you using archaeological sites and archaic tablets as proof of something that is scientific? I agree we are specks in the human history line.

I think (my opinion and not fact) that our ability to socially identify as what gender, regardless of time line, is a personal decision, and doesn't need to be validated by tablets or ancient beliefs.

Ganesh was seen as part human, elephant and represents many things to the divine and earth world in Hinduism. What we take from components of the past is our choice to keep their beliefs alive is my point.

But the past isn't a predetermination of something wiser. Flat earthers quote the bible for the earth being flat. It doesn't mean the past was onto something.

They are historically documented (and I suggest you actually use Google to search this before making a fool out of yourself next time), but some are not, for the same reason some trans hate crimes are just simply labeled "murders"—if society isn't knowledgeable enough, they just label it as what they know. A "woman who dressed manly" might just be called that, but to his friends he may have identified otherwise.

Since it seems in your opinion, I'm going to be bad at researching the subject, then provide me links to case studies or links to an academic article that will help me understand?

A woman who dresses manly is a pretty vague context. Do they look manly and have what would be considered male reproductive organs or female? If they were intersex, then it's both.

I remember someone saying that this subject isn't about "trans" as that indicates ones autonomy to define their gender. This subject is about a third gender, if I recall.

I feel like you have to conflate the issues together in order to prove your point, but we aren't even disagreeing on the same thing... :/

Anyone on this thread who thinks that identifying as nonbinary because the idea of being a woman/man does not "feel like you" means you are "reinforcing stereotypes" is projecting.

Have you considered you are also projecting? If I said "I identify as an attack helicopter", would you call me crass and manipulative? Or actually listen? As a non-binary, an attack helicopter can be an object of affection.

I remember of a story where a woman fell in love with the Eiffel tower (true story). I doubt they ever had debates or talks about their gender preferences in partners. :/

Just because you think all nonbinary people dress androgynous and have societally androgynous interests, does not mean that is the truth. If all nonbinary people dressed as androgynous and refused to like sports or ballet, then I'd agree, but they don't. Your view of the world is limited.

Dude, a woman fell in love with the Eiffel tower. Some people, can see objects as people and their frame of reference of their love can exist beyond the capacity of human understanding. I think you have fixed concepts based on your political identity. But that's my opinion. :P

I'd tell you about my nonbinary friends who dress completely binary, but then you'd contradict your own point and say "why do they identify as nonbinary then "

Not really. Women like to dress like men. I don't ask them, well why don't you grow a penis? I can accept some women like dressing and acting as men. They can be a Bro-Sis to me. :)

Nonbinary is an internal identity. Just because you base your idea of being a man or a woman on how society defines them, does not mean nonbinary people view gender that narrowly.

Refer to the Eiffel tower story

I am a man that dresses and acts extremely femininely, even looking feminine enough that I am called a girl regularly. I am still a man, and my view of my personal manliness includes dressing in skirts and painting my nails.

Nothing wrong with that. Your life, your choice. Isn't it trippy you live in a time period in life where you can at least have the option to explore your feminity? Instead, you're mental is stuck in the dark ages as you have to be oppressed. You can't compare your cause to the slaves of Egypt who had to build stuff for the pharoah.

You can actually ignore the media and old white people. You simply CHOOSE not.

A nonbinary person could dress the same and have that be their view of their personal gender identity. Black and white thinking is not conducive to intelligent thought.

Isn't that cool that no matter what we identify as, we all have a universal experience at life and it's magic? My beef with the rainbow is there is no black in it. :P (just joking)

 

[interna]

PCOS is a hormonal condition some women have, not a separate sex or gender category. It doesn't support your claims regarding non-binary gender ideology.

Also, I didn't talk about sex transitioning. I'm talking about people who claim to be neither man nor woman, which doesn't make sense.

i think you're confused. sex and gender are different things. no non-binary person is saying they don't have a sex. they're saying the assigned gender traditionally corresponding to said sex, whether it be male or female, is unaligned with their actual gender.

 

[U. A.]

i think you're confused. sex and gender are different things. no non-binary person is saying they don't have a sex. they're saying the assigned gender traditionally corresponding to said sex, whether it be male or female, is unaligned with their actual gender.

You'd think it would be this simple, but

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

One of my best friends is Trans. Amazing human being.

Erm AKTUALLY... I have a BLACK friend. So logically I CANNOT be racist. Checkmate LIBERALS! I am intellectually superior and marginalized people love me!

 

[Winterreise]

Why not

 

[woofwag]

Stupidest shit I've ever heard. "Yeah guys actualllyyyy breaking out of the gender norm somehow only reinforces gender norms because keeping a binary somehow helps people be more gender expressive!!" Like do you hear yourself? You're extremely ignorant, and especially in these replies it's clear you don't actually care about the trans/intersex experience, don't care to educate yourself, don't care to read about our experiences, and don't care to look into actual scientific research. Don't come to a suicide forum of all places to spout this bullshit. Many of us here are trans and don't want to hear it, myself included.

 

[Winterreise]

Because it pleases me.

 

[Pessimist]

theyre normal people who prefer to use a label they identify with, no reason for me to question their validity.

There are also people who identify as different animals. They can do whatever they want but it doesn't mean that other people should accept that.

i think you're confused. sex and gender are different things. no non-binary person is saying they don't have a sex. they're saying the assigned gender traditionally corresponding to said sex, whether it be male or female, is unaligned with their actual gender.

Why does an internal sense of gender, separate from sex, need to redefine social categories? Also, the idea that sex and gender are separate is far from universally accepted.

Erm AKTUALLY... I have a BLACK friend. So logically I CANNOT be racist. Checkmate LIBERALS!

Being a liberal doesn't mean being illogical. You can be a liberal without being extremely progressive and far-left on every issue.

Don't come to a suicide forum of all places to spout this bullshit. Many of us here are trans and don't want to hear it, myself included.

Maybe don't enter the Politics & Philosophy subforum?

Because it pleases me.

That's part of the problem. People want to feel special so they make up new genders and use different pronouns.