This site made me doubt God's existence even more

[Rukia]

Does anyone else have the same experience? Where is God when we suffer and plan to CTB? So much suffering on this site it is unbearable for me...Does He wait till we die to throw us into hell for eternity? I am a Christian but I had my doubts even before but now they become more and more solid...
If you are a believer how do you deal with this site? Where is your God?

 

[About_to_Go]

I would wager that most people on this site have either never believed in a god or have lost faith, as per the nature of the site. However, there is a very vocal minority who still preach the gospel. There was, at least.

 

[Meretlein]

You could try watching "The Problem of Evil" by Inspiring Philosophy.

I'm an atheist but I know some Christians who watch those videos. His arguments are interesting.

 

[pleasethistime]

I had faith but lost I guess.

 

[Endqualia]

Life makes much more sense since I lost my faith in a Christian god. What made me realise finally that there can't be any Christian god is realising that there is no free will. You don't decide what you think, want or feel it just happens. As Schopenhauer said "Man can do what he wills but he can't will what he wills". When I realised this fully the concept of a god who will judge you for your choices at the end of time, and so harshly that better part of humanity, that he loves, will inherit eternal torment, made no sense.

I live much more freely now knowing that I won't go to hell if I die unrepentant or kill myself. Only thing stopping me is how much would it hurt my family not some silly fears.

 

[Quinlor]

If you loose your afraid of death will see that God don't have any about it.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I was raised Christian. In the final analysis we all find out eventually via ctb or die a natural death.

The other possibility is that there may not be an Abrahamic God as described by the Bible, yet consciousness may continue after we die i.e. an Afterlife of sorts.

There is IMHO, enough anecdotal evidence to suggest something beyond our physical realm. I'm NOT saying this proves that an afterlife exist - I'm simply stating that just because empirical science can't prove something doesn't mean it does not exist.

 

[Jean Améry]

Ever since I reached the age of reason I rejected any notion of god's existence as there simply is no reliable evidence for it and it clearly reeks a manmade invention that has great social and political benefit. At least for those in the know.

Frequenting this forum has not made me doubt this even more as my atheism was already firmly ingrained into my being and it's simply part of who I am. Of course it is rather absurd to posit god is love and yet will punish his supposed children merely for putting an end to their suffering.

It's cyrstal clear to me we made god, not the other way round.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Life makes much more sense since I lost my faith in a Christian god. What made me realise finally that there can't be any Christian god is realising that there is no free will. You don't decide what you think, want or feel it just happens. As Schopenhauer said "Man can do what he wills but he can't will what he wills". When I realised this fully the concept of a god who will judge you for your choices at the end of time, and so harshly that better part of humanity, that he loves, will inherit eternal torment, made no sense.

I live much more freely now knowing that I won't go to hell if I die unrepentant or kill myself. Only thing stopping me is how much would it hurt my family not some silly fears.

Good point on the whole Free Will issue. Your post made me think of this presentation:

 

[Endqualia]

Your post made me think of this presentation:

Yeah it's good stuff I watched it some time ago. I would also recommend Sam Harris's book "Free Will" for a better understanding of the issue. It definitely helped me stop beating myself about shit I never had any control over.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Ever since I reached the age of reason I rejected any notion of god's existence as there simply is no reliable evidence for it and it clearly reeks a manmade invention that has great social and political benefit. At least for those in the know.

Frequenting this forum has not made me doubt this even more as my atheism was already firmly ingrained into my being and it's simply part of who I am. Of course it is rather absurd to posit god is love and yet will punish his supposed children merely for putting an end to their suffering.

It's cyrstal clear to me we made god, not the other way round.

Without a doubt to me, it would seem that all functioning societies need a strong belief in a diety in order to function. So it makes sense that dieties are, shall we say, 'embellished' by Man to be functional. I'm not saying that there is absolute proof in God, but rather that the notion of a diety has a pragmatic purpose.

 

[Jean Améry]

Without a doubt to me, it would seem that all functioning societies need a strong belief in a diety in order to function. So it makes sense that dieties are, shall we say, 'embellished' by Man to be functional. I'm not saying that there is absolute proof in God, but rather that the notion of a diety has a pragmatic purpose.

Secular societies do not need god to justify social order and law. It's a myth that religion is needed to make society functional. Theism does have a practical purpose: to justify the status-quo and keep the downtrodden majority from killing the rich and powerful. At least historically.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Theism does have a practical purpose: to justify the status-quo and keep the downtrodden majority from killing the rich and powerful. At least historically.

That's an example of what I was getting at, or trying to get at, but I like the way you stated it better.

 

[ExitTheDay]

God wont throw you in hell for CTB because he simply just doesn't exist, all of the "praying" and questions that I seeked out of this so called holy spirit have been left unanswered till this day and that's enough for me not to believe in such nonsense

 

[GameIsSkewed]

Secular societies do not need god to justify social order and law. It's a myth that religion is needed to make society functional. Theism does have a practical purpose: to justify the status-quo and keep the downtrodden majority from killing the rich and powerful. At least historically.

Yeah religion is social construct, it's a series of rules passed down the generations sifted through the test and learn mechanism. It had it's implications in the days of old, but nowdays it's becoming increasingly obsolete. Time to rely on ourselves.

 

[Meretlein]

Good point on the whole Free Will issue. Your post made me think of this presentation:

That video messes up at the end, studies have shown that not believing in free will makes people act worse. I feel like that guy is putting lipstick on a pig.

There’s No Such Thing as Free Will

But we all may be better off believing in it anyway.

www.theatlantic.com

Thomas Ligotti and Ernest Becker did a good job writing about the state of despair humans are in.

 

[Endqualia]

That's an example of what I was getting at, or trying to get at, but I like the way you stated it better.

I watched it. The way he approaches the issue is by considering the fact that our will is influenced by a myriad of influences. Which is legit but it may leave one thinking that somehow in that crucial moment you could have decided differently. "Those are influences but still if I wanted to I could have acted differently", goes the thinking. Which is true. But weather you want this or that is outside of your control. A will enters you consciousness against your will, so to speak. If Jerry decided to refuse in that moment that will would have came from a place as mysterious and outside of his control as the will to use. He can't claim responsibility for either.

 

[NOT]

 

[Darkhaven]

I was raised by JW's and still live with them.
I was never into it, but they all made sure to fill me in on their vision of things every since i was a small kid.
It only made me become even more different than every other kid, and aggravated my anti social tendencies even more.
Nowadays i still believe in God and Jesus, but i have no faith in what's to come and i don't think we matter that much to them, even despite God sending Jesus to die for us.
If people really were that important God would have put an end to our suffering long ago.
But nothing happens: just think how many years have passed since God showed signs of his existence. He supposedly ressurected Christ after his death centuries ago and ever since we got nothing.
Even the ones who suffer the most and deserve to be freed from this life have to endure through it all untill nature does its job of putting an end to a life.
I still believe in God but i have no faith in what He will do in the future and i don't think that He will do anything soon.
So it's just best to not put faith and hope in nothing but yourself in my opinion.

 

[Final Escape]

But we do have free will. It won't feel like that under a massive government though. The state competes with God. We are not educated to be moral for a reason. If there was a lot of moral education in gov controlled schools, it would give the state less control because your allegiance than is to God and not the state. You are much more controllable when u live immorally or as an atheist. You become more dependent on the state which is what they want, but your life won't be better for it.

 

[Endqualia]

But we do have free will. It won't feel like that under a massive government though. The state competes with God. We are not educated to be moral for a reason. If there was a lot of moral education in gov controlled schools, it would give the state less control because your allegiance than is to God and not the state. You are much more controllable when u live immorally or as an atheist. You become more dependent on the state which is what they want, but your life won't be better for it.

Free will in the sense that we are free to do what we want-yes, even though that is freedom of action-not will. But free will in the sense that you are somehow the sole author of you will is simply impossible. You, say, have a will to do this or that and you do it, how did you bring that will into being? Why did you want to do that and not something else? You don't know.

Every free action is the result of your will, and your will is the first step in that casual chain (from your subjective point of view). Will-action. But what is behind the will? Weather is it caused by something in your brain or springs into existence randomly you in no case are responsible for it.

 

[Jean Améry]

Every free action is the result of your will, and your will is the first step in that casual chain (from your subjective point of view). Will-action. But what is behind the will? Weather is it caused by something in your brain or springs into existence randomly you in no case are responsible for it.

I agree with this. While we can certainly think consciously on certain things random thoughts and feelings that pop into our head are not authored by us. In that sense it seems clear to me we don't have free will.

I am wondering in case we do commit suicide whether it's a decision emanating from us, a product of our consciousness deciding living is not wothwhile anylonger or it is the product of factors outside of our control.

Obviously if certain things had not happened in my life (outside of my control) I probably would not feel the way I do and I would not be on this site. Yet I do believe it's possible to rationally decide CTB is the correct, reasonable answer. Is this an illusion too?

 

[Alucard]

Not me ... because I never believed in God. The fact that someone like me exists proves that God does not exist.

I believe in Nothingness.

 

[Endqualia]

I agree with this. While we can certainly think consciously on certain things random thoughts and feelings that pop into our head are not authored by us. In that sense it seems clear to me we don't have free will.

I am wondering in case we do commit suicide whether it's a decision emanating from us, a product of our consciousness deciding living is not wothwhile anylonger or it is the product of factors outside of our control.

Obviously if certain things had not happened in my life (outside of my control) I probably would not feel the way I do and I would not be on this site. Yet I do believe it's possible to rationally decide CTB is the correct, reasonable answer. Is this an illusion too?

I think about it like this: if I chose to ctb it will be because in my opinion (choice, liking, perception, understanding, whatever) it will be the most desirable option at the time. Whether or not it seems (feels, appeals) to me like the best option is not up to me. You don't choose whether something makes sense to you or not in a given moment. Could you find that 2+2=4 doesn't make sense, or that the earth is flat, or be gay if your not (or vice versa)? We don't determine our desires, they determine us.

 

[Jean Améry]

I think about it like this: if I chose to ctb it will be because in my opinion (choice, liking, perception, understanding, whatever) it will be the most desirable option at the time. Whether or not it seems (feels, appeals) to me like the best option is not up to me. You don't choose whether something makes sense to you or not in a given moment. Could you find that 2+2=4 doesn't make sense, or that the earth is flat, or be gay if your not (or vice versa)? We don't determine our desires, they determine us.

That 2 +2 = 4 is an analytical truth, the earth being round or someone being gay are empirical facts. I do not believe this is comparable to an opinion, desire or a preference. To claim the earth is flat is clearly nonsense (it can be shown that it's not) while liking certain music or feeling life is not worth living is a personal preference (there is no right or wrong).

Clearly at least some individuals are capable of coming to a reasoned decision about ending their life (rational or balance sheet suicide). Are these people really just rationalizing their emotions?

 

[NOT]

You know, not likely God will come back on a cloud.
Imagine him coming back in human flesh, like spirit of Jesus, or Mohammad, or Buddha.
Ruling elite would make propaganda against him.
Major religions would says he is the antichrist, or equivalent.
Scientist would make fun of him.
He would be dead or in psych ward.

 

[Rukia]

But nothing happens: just think how many years have passed since God showed signs of his existence. He supposedly ressurected Christ after his death centuries ago and ever since we got nothing.

Well, it depends on what you believe...There was an alleged Marian apparition in Fatima for example...There are alleged onging apparitions in Medjugorje...

 

[PatKat]

You know, not likely God will come back on a cloud.
Imagine him coming back in human flesh, like spirit of Jesus, or Mohammad, or Buddha.
Ruling elite would make propaganda against him.
Major religions would says he is the antichrist, or equivalent.
Scientist would make fun of him.
He would be dead or in psych ward.

I know right, I dont believe any of the religious nonsense.

I do agree though if that were to actually happen 'jesus' would get locked into a psych ward, shot by LE, or captured by the government and experimented on.

 

[Endqualia]

My point was something either makes sense to you or it doesn't. Maybe examples I used are too strong but you have people who are insane that don't find 2+2=4 compelling and there is nothing you can do to convince them otherwise. Same for flat earth. It's hard to talk about objective reality when everything we experience and know is through our fundamental intuitions, including 2+2=4. We can't know if there is a universe where that is not true, no matter how ridiculous it seems. We can't know absolute truths.

I don't even know what does rational even mean in this context. If life is suffering (for you) and not existing is better than suffering (again for you, since who's the judge here?) why live? If life is a joke suicide is logical.

 

[Darkhaven]

Well, it depends on what you believe...There was an alleged Marian apparition in Fatima for example...There are alleged onging apparitions in Medjugorje...

That Maria's apparition is the dumbest thing the Catholics ever came up with. Lmao.
I know, i'm from the country where it "happened".
It was made up by country peaseants that probably didn't even know how to read.
It's kind of common here for rural people to make stories about these kinds of things.
It's our own kind of "folklore".
All they had to do was make the storie big enough in order to spread it and make it believable to the whole "catholic nation" throughout the world.