Think I'm hooked up for exit bag. Questions

[bov]

I plan on using a Nonrebreather mask; does anyone have any tips as to how to how to test it for effectiveness? My understanding is that it doesn't have to fit *perfectly* to the face, just as the elastic of an exit bag doesn't have to seal *perfectly* to the neck.

 

[Lastsauce]

@bov Testing a mask safely would be difficult. If you are standing up and holding it to your face without straps you won't know how the mask seal keeps when your facial muscles relax.
Simple bag should be pretty fool proof.

 

[rancho]

Sorry for my long response times, I'm still struggling with the major depression phase.

How long it takes to fill the bag depends on the size of the bag and the flow rate set. I can only tell you my experience of about 30 seconds.

Crap - I must have a leak or something. It was 5-10 minutes and the bag still wasn't "fully erect" - does it not get full erect? It was more like 3/4 and kind of stay that way.

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

How different was it with helium?

@Lastsauce already described it well.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/what-is-your-preferred-method.41732/post-764823

Seeing and hearing was going a little crazy, but in a nice way.

I had waited for this with nitrogen and was a bit surprised that I didn't even feel it.

 

[rancho]

Crap - I must have a leak or something. It was 5-10 minutes and the bag still wasn't "fully erect" - does it not get full erect? It was more like 3/4 and kind of stay that way.

Damn. I just watched the Final Exit Helium Demo and that guy's bag is "fully erect" What could I be doing wrong?

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

Crap - I must have a leak or something. It was 5-10 minutes and the bag still wasn't "fully erect" - does it not get full erect? It was more like 3/4 and kind of stay that way.

What are the dimensions of the bag?
What is your flow rate?

You can try breathing only with the tube. If you can breathe in normally quickly, then the flow rate is about correct. How long it takes to fill is secondary.

Only as an aid if you don't have a display for the flow rate.

Damn. I just watched the Final Exit Helium Demo and that guy's bag is "fully erect" What could I be doing wrong?

There are only 2 options.
1. Not enough gas is flowing
2. The bag loses gas too quickly because it is leaking at the bottom.

 

[rancho]

What are the dimensions of the bag?
What is your flow rate?

You can try breathing only with the tube. If you can breathe in normally quickly, then the flow rate is about correct. How long it takes to fill is secondary.

Only as an aid if you don't have a display for the flow rate.

There are only 2 options.
1. Not enough gas is flowing
2. The bag loses gas too quickly because it is leaking at the bottom.

Turkey bag - and I 32 CFH

Breathe in the argon through the tube? I'm not quite following there.

I do have a display for the flow rate.

 

[bov]

2. The bag loses gas too quickly because it is leaking at the bottom.

Could it be leaking through the hole the tube goes through?

 

[TheQ22]

Could it be leaking through the hole the tube goes through?

Hole the tube goes through? I think the tube is just glued into the bag , it goes in the same hole you put your head through.

 

[FewerMoats]

This is the way I've always wanted to do it but I'm pretty stupid and I'm sure to mess it up. It'd be cool if someone could do a tutorial for this, like what to buy and from where, settings, etc.

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

This is the way I've always wanted to do it but I'm pretty stupid and I'm sure to mess it up. It'd be cool if someone could do a tutorial for this, like what to buy and from where, settings, etc.

There are books on the subject. Unfortunately, I only know German speakers, but there are certainly also English ones.
Have you already checked the resources here in the forum?

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/resource-compilation.3/

 

[TheQ22]

As Letzte says, there are diagrams in some of the books and donloads in the resources section.

 

[profoundexperience]

This is the way I've always wanted to do it but I'm pretty stupid and I'm sure to mess it up. It'd be cool if someone could do a tutorial for this, like what to buy and from where, settings, etc.

I really like and highly recommend the book "Five Last Acts" by Chris Docker. It's expensive but very thorough and well written. It is cited in the SS Wiki.

There are also instructions here https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-and-inert-gas-megathread.8393/ but I found the "Five Last Acts" book the best instructions for me/my inert gas setup. Save for a few, minor questions/ideas I've had & then ask here on SS... I am extremely confident after having read & followed that book.

 

[FewerMoats]

I really like and highly recommend the book "Five Last Acts" by Chris Docker. It's expensive but very thorough and well written. It is cited in the SS Wiki.

There are also instructions here https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-and-inert-gas-megathread.8393/ but I found the "Five Last Acts" book the best instructions for me/my inert gas setup. Save for a few, minor questions/ideas I've had & then ask here on SS... I am extremely confident after having read & followed that book.

Thank you. I'll have a look. I only just found this site and haven't explored much.

 

[profoundexperience]

Damn. I just watched the Final Exit Helium Demo and that guy's bag is "fully erect" What could I be doing wrong?

In that video, (if we're watching the same thing/version)...

1. He's using no flowmeter whatsoever (so he could be doing way more than the recommended 15 LPM).
2. He's using helium... which would tend to make the bag stand up more than argon. Remember argon is denser than air so it will tend to sink down. The key in the inert gas method is that one is supplying enough fresh gas to purge oxygen and CO2 out of the system ASAP. Provided one has well emptied the bag of regular air at the beginning, for several breaths, your body/lungs will be the source of those. A typical, adult respiration is ~500 ml each times how many times you breathe per minute.

Gas	Chemical Formula	Molar mass	Density	Density
–	–	g/mol	kg/m3	lb/ft3
Air	–	28.96	1.2740	0.0748
Ammonia	NH3	17.03	0.7491	0.0440
Argon	Ar	39.95	1.7572	0.1032
Bio Gas

There are only 2 options.
1. Not enough gas is flowing
2. The bag loses gas too quickly because it is leaking at the bottom.

Turkey bags are very strong, but there also could be a hole in the bag. I bet it's #1 or #2 though. Also, remember your head displaces a lot of the volume inside the turkey bag = the time to inflate that whole thing isn't really what you're after.

Turkey bag - and I 32 CFH
I do have a display for the flow rate.

What gas is your flowmeter calibrated to? Is it an argon flowmeter? Different gases can be used on a flowmeter that isn't calibrated for it... one just needs to do a calculation.

Sorry if I was a bit terse... I'm on my phone & it's a pain to type/lookup stuff.

 

[rancho]

In that video, (if we're watching the same thing/version)...

1. He's using no flowmeter whatsoever (so he could be doing way more than the recommended 15 LPM).
2. He's using helium... which would tend to make the bag stand up more than argon. Remember argon is denser than air so it will tend to sink down. The key in the inert gas method is that one is supplying enough fresh gas to purge oxygen and CO2 out of the system ASAP. Provided one has well emptied the bag of regular air at the beginning, for several breaths, your body/lungs will be the source of those. A typical, adult respiration is ~500 ml each times how many times you breathe per minute.

Gas	Chemical Formula	Molar mass	Density	Density
–	–	g/mol	kg/m3	lb/ft3
Air	–	28.96	1.2740	0.0748
Ammonia	NH3	17.03	0.7491	0.0440
Argon	Ar	39.95	1.7572	0.1032
Bio Gas

Turkey bags are very strong, but there also could be a hole in the bag. I bet it's #2 though. Also, remember your head displaces a lot of the volume inside the turkey bag = the time to inflate that whole thing isn't really what you're after.

What gas is your flowmeter calibrated to? Is it an argon flowmeter?

Sorry if I was a bit terse... I'm on my phone & it's a pain to type/lookup stuff.

That's the same video. What you're saying makes total sense!

I had it on my forehead - like he was saying looking like a shower cap. Makes sense about the head displacing volume. I just wanted to make sure it's getting enough gas in there.

It's Helium/Argon/CO2 - it's set for 32 CFH

Not terse at all.

 

[profoundexperience]

I just wanted to make sure it's getting enough gas in there.

I have a nitrogen setup, but I've never tested how long it takes to fill my turkey bag. Just thinking of other ways you can check...

Can you calculate the volume of your bag? It's not just height x width as it will form a cylinder-like shape. The specs on mine say "Holds and Contains up to 25 LBS of Liquid or Solid Weight". Elsewhere, I find "a gallon of water would weighs approximately 8.3 pounds"... so total volume my bag purportedly holds (usable, "food volume") is ~3 gallons... so that converts to 11.3 liters... so, a completely sealed/airtight bag should inflate (up to 3 gallons volume... of course the bag might actually hold A LOT MORE so it might not seem "erect" at all... but you could put 3 gallons water in a bag to get an idea of what 3 gallons volume "looks like" in a bag)... in 45 seconds at 15 LPM.

Another way... BE VERY CAREFUL IF YOU ACTUALLY DO THIS (FAINTING & wasting Ar POSSIBILITY)... Is what's coming out of the hose when it's on (don't waste too much Ar if you don't have a lot)... "too much to breathe it all" (more than you'd be able to). That's subjective... but if the flow is too much you can't breathe it all it should be more than enough imho. I know my flowmeter at 15 LPM seems like more than I could breathe at regular respirations (I'd guess around 2-3 times more). I believe this is what @LetzteAusfahrt was getting at earlier (when there might have been some confusion).

*********
You've installed (taped) your Argon hose "outlet" high up inside your hood/bag, right? One wants that "new, fresh" argon pushing down & out all the other gases (especially anything being exhaled or initial residual, regular air that gets inside )... pushing/venting/purging all of that "old stuff" down and out.

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

Sorry if I was a bit terse... I'm on my phone & it's a pain to type/lookup stuff.

You get used to it. I have never been on the PC when I was in the forum.

 

[profoundexperience]

You get used to it. I have never been on the PC when I was in the forum.

Hopefully, no need to "get used to it" (or anything at all for that matter ).

Hopefully very soon... Please, soon! (I both whisper, yell & plead to myself.)

 

[WearyOfStruggling]

Crap - I must have a leak or something. It was 5-10 minutes and the bag still wasn't "fully erect" - does it not get full erect? It was more like 3/4 and kind of stay that way.

(Note I edited this post after reconsidering the size of the bag).
With the flow rate set to 15 LPM = 32 CFH, a turkey bag will fill completely in less than 5 minutes. Just compare visually a 2 liter bottle to a turkey bag, and you can see the volume of the bag can't be more than 5*15=75 liters. The PPeH March 2020 ed. says it will take about 2 minutes.

I suggest confirming that the correct scale on the flowmeter gauge for argon is being read. But regardless of the flow rate, the bag will eventually fully inflate unless there is a significant leak, or the elastic isn't nearly snug enough.

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

Hopefully, no need to "get used to it" (or anything at all for that matter ).

Hopefully very soon... Please, soon! (I both whisper, yell & plead to myself.)

Oups, I didn't even think about that.

Of course, I very much hope for you that you will have absolutely no time to get used to it. Best of all, nothing more.

What do you have to wait for to make my wishes come true for you?

I believe this is what @LetzteAusfahrt was getting at earlier (when there might have been some confusion).

Correctly
But it occurred to me that he must have already glued the hose into the bag. So I didn't want to go into it in more detail in order not to cause even more confusion

 

[profoundexperience]

What do you have to wait for to make my wishes come true for you?

The main "excuses" have been...

1. Getting things tidied up to make it easier for my family. But, this one has been an issue for more than 6 months now. I've taken care of >80% of the really embarrassing stuff. They'll judge me regardless... and why the fuck does that matter so much to me anyway? Ultimately, it is a matter that I'll never get it just the way I want (depression & low energy is a big part of that).
2. Although all the components of my method are ready, I'm not setup at the location I want to use (a shed on my property & it needs a little tidying too, probably 2-3 days work to be 100% ready with the shed).
3. Am I psychologically ready? There is still some fear and I don't expect to eliminate it all... just there are times when my "state of mind" is certainly much "more ready" than others.

Your asking that question was very helpful, @LetzteAusfahrt ... thank you!

P.S. I may not be back online until tomorrow (I'm going to sleep even though it's only 2:30 pm/14:30 here... just too tired/depressed.) But will look at whatever you say asap when I awaken... Again, much thanks @LetzteAusfahrt !!

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

First of all, I have to say that I'll be going to sleep soon, it's 23:44 for me
(UTC +2)

I'll send you a PM, it'll get personal

 

[rancho]

(Note I edited this post after reconsidering the size of the bag).
With the flow rate set to 15 LPM = 32 CFH, a turkey bag will fill completely in less than 5 minutes. Just compare visually a 2 liter bottle to a turkey bag, and you can see the volume of the bag can't be more than 5*15=75 liters.

I suggest confirming that the correct scale on the flowmeter gauge for argon is being read. But regardless of the flow rate, the bag will eventually fully inflate unless there is a significant leak, or the elastic isn't nearly snug enough.

Is this where I want to be on the flowmeter?

But it occurred to me that he must have already glued the hose into the bag. So I didn't want to go into it in more detail in order not to cause even more confusion

You know me!.................So would you actually make it so you are sucking on the end of the tube?
I've seen two different things - should you take one big breath before pulling the bag down - or should you hyperventilate for a minute or two and then do it?

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

The suggestion to breathe the gas directly from the hose is only intended as a stopgap measure to control the flow rate. But you have a display for the flow.

If I get it right, the ball reads about 32. That is correct if cfh are measured with it.

32 cfh correspond to 15 liters per minute

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You shouldn't be hyperventilating or it will just take longer to pass out.

You should exhale before pulling the sack down, otherwise it will only take longer before you pass out.

Where did you get these 2 ideas from?

 

[WearyOfStruggling]

Is this where I want to be on the flowmeter?

View attachment 43748


You know me!.................So would you actually make it so you are sucking on the end of the tube?
I've seen two different things - should you take one big breath before pulling the bag down - or should you hyperventilate for a minute or two and then do it?

Yes, that is the correct argon scale and the center of the ball looks to be on 32 CFH, equal to 15 LPM.

 

[rancho]

You shouldn't be hyperventilating or it will just take longer to pass out.

You should exhale before pulling the sack down, otherwise it will only take longer before you pass out.

Where did you get these 2 ideas from?

Page 98 of my PPH has a chapter Hyperventilating to Minimize the Alarm Response - says to do it for 1-2 minutes. Prelowering the CO2 in the blood and greatly lowering the chance of the alarm response when lowering the bag.

Another way... BE VERY CAREFUL IF YOU ACTUALLY DO THIS (FAINTING & wasting Ar POSSIBILITY)... Is what's coming out of the hose when it's on (don't waste too much Ar if you don't have a lot)... "too much to breathe it all" (more than you'd be able to). That's subjective... but if the flow is too much you can't breathe it all it should be more than enough imho. I know my flowmeter at 15 LPM seems like more than I could breathe at regular respirations (I'd guess around 2-3 times more). I believe this is what @LetzteAusfahrt was getting at earlier (when there might have been some confusion).

I did this - and it was exactly like you said - 2-3 times more.

 

[rancho]

The Five Acts book mentions a dress rehearsal. Is that what I've been having here, or does anybody see what else I should do to rehearse?

 

[bov]

If 15 LPM is uncomfortable how much lower would people be willing to go / is it safe to set it any lower?

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

Page 98 of my PPH has a chapter Hyperventilating to Minimize the Alarm Response - says to do it for 1-2 minutes. Prelowering the CO2 in the blood and greatly lowering the chance of the alarm response when lowering the bag.

You can do it of course, it doesn't do any harm.

But there is no reason why CO2 levels should rise if you continue to breathe normally. This only happens when you hold your breath or breathe extremely shallowly. You won't do both.

When everything is ready and you pull the bag down for the last time, then you breathe in deeply beforehand, breathe out while pulling it down and then continue as normal.

Hyperventilating lowers the CO2 level AND increases the oxygen concentration in the blood.

You can do it, but you don't have to

If 15 LPM is uncomfortable how much lower would people be willing to go / is it safe to set it any lower?

15 LPM is a value that is definitely high enough for the bag method to work for (almost) everyone, regardless of lung capacity. The amount of gas required is of course also smaller with smaller lungs.

You can of course decrease the amount if you want. But I will take care not to give you a number

The question is, how can 15 LPM be inconvenient?

It is only important that with the bag method the gas flows long enough. if the gas supply is used up after 1 minute, then of course it does not work.