Think I'm hooked up for exit bag. Questions

[rancho]

If 15 LPM is uncomfortable how much lower would people be willing to go / is it safe to set it any lower?

I don't think it's got anything to do with comfort level.

You can do it of course, it doesn't do any harm.

But there is no reason why CO2 levels should rise if you continue to breathe normally. This only happens when you hold your breath or breathe extremely shallowly. You won't do both.

When everything is ready and you pull the bag down for the last time, then you breathe in deeply beforehand, breathe out while pulling it down and then continue as normal.

Hyperventilating lowers the CO2 level AND increases the oxygen concentration in the blood.

You can do it, but you don't have to

I wonder why they put that in there..................That increase of oxygen concentration - will that be enough to cause a problem?

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

No, it doesn't cause any problems. It takes a little longer at most until you pass out.

If the PPH advises to hold your breath while pulling down, then that could be the reason.

But these are unimportant details when you look at how the method works. As soon as you breathe normally, the CO2 is exhaled normally.

 

[rancho]

But these are unimportant details when you look at how the method works.

Can you explain a little further on this?

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

Can you explain a little further on this?

I mean how CO2 is created, what it can trigger and how it is removed from the body. I assume that you know that

 

[rancho]

I mean how CO2 is created, what it can trigger and how it is removed from the body. I assume that you know that

I actually don't know the mechanics of how it is created in the lungs, etc.......... I know it can trigger an alarm response........And, it's removed from the body by exhaling.

 

[LetzteAusfahrt]

Ok, that's enough

 

[rancho]

Ok, that's enough

So, you're saying that as long as you're exhaling normally, you don't have to worry about the hyperventilating? Enough CO2 will be removed in normal exhalation?

 

[TheQ22]

You don't need to hyperventilate. That's following the idea of shallow water drowning, were you trick your body into thinking you have an abundance of O2 and no CO2.

With inert gas your body simply cannot detect it.

When you breath normally in a normal atmosphere you normally expel CO2, since the O2 in the atmosphere is changed in your body to CO2..

With inert gas the O2 (i.e. air) is replaced with nitrogen or helium or argon, and the hypercapnic response (bodys response to build up of CO2) isn't triggered because there is no CO2.

No O2, so no CO2.

We've evolved to breathe in air, where O2 is changed internally to CO2, not to breathe in pure nitrogen where no CO2 is produced.

Too much CO2 in your system and your body reacts and SI kicks in. No O2, no CO2.

ergo, your body cannot detect or respond to it, so you drift off and die from lack of O2. With no panic response.

 

[rancho]

hypercapnic response (bodys response to build up of CO2) isn't triggered because there is no CO2.

We've evolved to breathe in air, where O2 is changed internally to CO2, not to breathe in pure nitrogen where no CO2 is produced.

Are you sure about that? There still is CO2 being produced, isn't there? What are you breathing out?

 

[TheQ22]

Are you sure about that? There still is CO2 being produced, isn't there? What are you breathing out?

In order to breathe out CO2 you need to breathe in O2. Your cells take O2 and you exhale CO2.

If you replace air with Nitrogen, as an example, then you are now breathing in N, not O2.

So, apart from the O2 already in your lungs, you can no longer produce CO2 since there is no O2 to create it, the O2 is replaced by N (nitrogen).

So your body can no longer produce CO2, so it can't build up in your system, and since your system can only react to CO2 and not nitrogen (since you've evolved to survive in an O2 rich environment), you experience no hypercapnic alarm response to a build up of CO2, since there is no build up of CO2.

You have to understand this - the desire to rip off a plastic bag is not due to lack of O2, but because of a build up of CO2.

Remove the CO2, there is no fight or flight mechanism, no desire to rip off the bag, etc.

Watch the documentary with Michael Portillo, it might explain it better.

 

[rancho]

In order to breathe out CO2 you need to breathe in O2. Your cells take O2 and you exhale CO2.

If you replace air with Nitrogen, as an example, then you are now breathing in N, not O2.

So, apart from the O2 already in your lungs, you can no longer produce CO2 since there is no O2 to create it, the O2 is replaced by N (nitrogen).

So your body can no longer produce CO2, so it can't build up in your system, and since your system can only react to CO2 and not nitrogen (since you've evolved to survive in an O2 rich environment), you experience no hypercapnic alarm response to a build up of CO2, since there is no build up of CO2.

You have to understand this - the desire to rip off a plastic bag in not due to lack of O2, but a build up of CO2.

Remove the CO2, there is no fight or flight mechanism, no desire to rip off the bag, etc.

Watch the documentary with Michael Portillo, it might explain it better.

That's a great explanation. Thank you................I wonder why the PPH would bring up hyperventilating for a minute or two. Maybe just so there is as little CO2 as possible initally.

 

[TheQ22]

That's a great explanation. Thank you................I wonder why the PPH would bring up hyperventilating for a minute or two. Maybe just so there is as little CO2 as possible initally.

Probably.

 

[WearyOfStruggling]

In order to breathe out CO2 you need to breathe in O2. Your cells take O2 and you exhale CO2.

If you replace air with Nitrogen, as an example, then you are now breathing in N, not O2.

So, apart from the O2 already in your lungs, you can no longer produce CO2 since there is no O2 to create it, the O2 is replaced by N (nitrogen).

So your body can no longer produce CO2, so it can't build up in your system, and since your system can only react to CO2 and not nitrogen (since you've evolved to survive in an O2 rich environment), you experience no hypercapnic alarm response to a build up of CO2, since there is no build up of CO2.

You have to understand this - the desire to rip off a plastic bag in not due to lack of O2, but a build up of CO2.

Remove the CO2, there is no fight or flight mechanism, no desire to rip off the bag, etc.

Watch the documentary with Michael Portillo, it might explain it better.

I don't have any medical expertise, but this explanation doesn't seem completely accurate to me. My understanding is that even after one begins breathing pure inert gas so there is no oxygen being absorbed by the lungs, there is still significant oxygen in the blood. That is how you can go on living for a few minutes when deprived of oxygen by holding your breath, for instance. During this time, the cells continue to use oxygen and produce CO2, which is carried by the veins back to the lungs for exhalation. That is why a steady flow of inert gas to the bag is required to continuously flush away the CO2 for the several minutes that CO2 is being produced.

My feeling about the recommendation in the PPeH to hyperventilate before entering the bag is that there must be a medical reason for doing so, and after reading briefly about hyperventilation online, I learned the primary effect is to remove CO2 from the blood, as stated in the PPeH, rather than increase the oxygen saturation in the blood. I think the blood is already saturated with oxygen to a high level under normal conditions, so it can't be increased much more. So by removing as much CO2 as possible through hyperventilation, the CO2 being exhaled into the bag is minimized. However, the inert gas flow will continue to flush out the CO2, so it doesn't seem like hyperventilation is critical to do, but it may speed up the time to unconsciousness by reducing the hypercapnia from the beginning of the process.

 

[TheQ22]

I don't have any medical expertise, but this explanation doesn't seem accurate to me. My understanding is that even after one begins breathing pure inert gas so there is no oxygen being absorbed by the lungs, there is still significant oxygen in the blood. That is how you can go on living for a few minutes when deprived of oxygen by holding your breath, for instance. During this time, the cells continue to use oxygen and produce CO2, which is carried by the veins back to the lungs for exhalation. That is why a steady flow of inert gas to the bag is required to continuously flush away the CO2 for the several minutes that CO2 is being produced.

My feeling about the recommendation in the PPeH to hyperventilate before entering the bag is that there must be a medical reason for doing so, and after reading briefly about hyperventilation online, I learned the primary effect is to to remove CO2 from the blood rather than increase the oxygen saturation as stated in the PPeH. I think the blood is already saturated with oxygen to a high level under normal conditions, so it can't be increased much more.

Yes I agree - you having no medical expertise, and despite the numbers of people who die from this method - that must all be wrong and you must be right.

I will immediately write to the general medical counsel and tell them to revise all medical books on your say so, and tell balloontime and all of the other helium suppliers to stop adding air, because you say it isn't necessary unless people follow an exact procedure that you say is vital.

Thanks for your input, you've just saved loads of us from not dying in the same way loads of other people already died.

Thank God for you. You've just helped loads of suicidal people to be even more sure they finally commit suicide.

God Bless you.

 

[rancho]

Yes I agree - you having no medical expertise, and despite the numbers of people who die from this method - that must all be wrong and you must be right.

I will immediately write to the general medical counsel and tell them to revise all medical books on your say so, and tell balloontime and all of the other helium suppliers to stop adding air, because you say it isn't necessary unless people follow an exact procedure that you say is vital.

Thanks for your input, you've just saved loads of us from not dying in the same way loads of other people already died.

Thank God for you. You've just helped loads of suicidal people to be even more sure they finally commit suicide.

God Bless you.

Can you address it with just facts? It was my understanding that CO2 has to be continually washed away via the gas, too.

 

[TheQ22]

Can you address it with just facts? It was my understanding that CO2 has to be continually washed away via the gas, too.

Yes you can buy CO2washaway, it's a brand name. You just add it into a plastic bag over your head (for is twa't it was made for) and it will magically wash away all CO2, ne'er to be a problem ever again.

In fact it turns CO2 into purest gold, so if you do wake up afterwards you'll be alive and rich and probably won't want to top yourself ever again. Unless you want more gold.

 

[rancho]

Yes you can buy CO2washaway, it's a brand name. You just add it into a plastic bag over your head (for is twa't it was made for) and it will magically wash away all CO2, ne'er to be a problem ever again.

In fact it turns CO2 into purest gold, so if you do wake up afterwards you'll be alive and rich and probably won't want to top yourself ever again. Unless you want more gold.

We're all suffering here and looking for answers. You provided some excellent advice. I don't know why you're so mad now?

 

[TheQ22]

I'm not mad? It's kind of like you asked what is 2 + 2 and I (and others) told you it's 4.

Then you said how is it 4?

So I (and others) explained that.

Then you asked what is 2?

So I (and others) explained that.

Then your chummy boy comes along and questions if 2 + 2 can equal 4, and maybe 2 is actually a sausage?

Lot's of people have done 2 + 2 = 4, we all know 2 + 2 = 4, so if you're too stupid to understand that 2 + 2 = 4 why don't you just fuck off and eat some fucking sausages and stop wasting everybody elses time?

 

[bov]

Who can fault @rancho for wanting as much clarity as possible? @TheQ22 it's obvious you're very knowledgeable but I'd like to cut the user some slack.

 

[TheQ22]

Who can fault @rancho for wanting as much clarity as possible? @TheQ22 it's obvious you're very knowledgeable but I'd like to cut the user some slack.

I understand what you're saying, and I also am 100% for that, but it isn't just me - there's more than one user getting frustrated by the "well, yes but..." attitude to every singe answer to every single question from this user. It's actually almost like a case study from Eric Berne's "Yes but" personality type.

I'm getting the distinct impression that whatever you say, or do, or prove to them, there will always be a "yes but..." what about if this, or that, or something else that made it not work.

Like for example - would laying my head on a rail track just before a train arrived cut off my head?

Yes.

Yes, but what if I had on a heavily starched shirt collar, would that effect it?

No.

But what if it was a HEAVILY starched collar?

No difference.

Yes but, what if the wheels of the train were chemically constructed in such a way that heavily starched collars might bounce off them?

That wouldn't happen.

Yes but, what if it did? What might happen then?

It wouldn't.

Yes but, what if.......

Ad nauseum.

 

[rancho]

I don't really think I've done that, and if I have, I apologize. I just don't want to screw up.

 

[TheQ22]

ok

 

[WearyOfStruggling]

@TheQ22, sorry that you took offense to my reply on the hyperventilation question. No offense was intended. My only intention was to share my understanding on the issue, and for me the primary value of this site is a place to exchange information with others on methods in hopefully an honest and nonjudgemental environment. These are complicated medical issues that few of us are equipped to understand, but my hope is the discussion will help us all find the information that will allow us to come to our own conclusions.

 

[rancho]

Can somebody tell me what I should do for a dress rehearsal in order to be as confident as others here are that they got this

 

[WearyOfStruggling]

Can somebody tell me what I should do for a dress rehearsal in order to be as confident as others here are that they got this

I can't think of a good way to do a dress rehearsal with an exit bag. If one had an assistant who they literally trusted with their life, one could go through the process until they lost consciousness, and their assistant could quickly remove the bag and they would hopefully regain consciousness quickly with no lasting effects, but that seems very risky, not to mention that very few of us have such an assistant.

For me, the best one can do is make sure there is sufficient gas in the cylinder to last the time required, the flow rate is set correctly, there aren't any leaks in the system, the elastic is adjusted snugly around the neck, and when they go unconscious, they won't fall out of position and potentally change the setup.

I suppose if one had extra gas to use trying out things, one could go through the process of inflating the bag on the top of the head, and even pull the bag down while holding the breath while the flow keeps the bag inflated, but this idea seems unnecessary and even risky to me.

 

[rancho]

I think the only thing stopping me at this point is the chance of doing something while unconscious to screw it up and getting brain damage.

What are the best things to do to minimize this chance?

 

[Greenberg]

@rancho, I fully understand that you are hesitant or perhaps even scared of a potential mishap with the exit bag method; but as @TheQ22 has mentioned, this is a tried-and-true method and you have been supplied with all requisite information. If you follow all the guidelines offered, a successful outcome will result. As I have mentioned to another forum member, decide on a rock sold method to exit (the exit bag is one of them) and ensure you are capable of executing the process fully with the best equipment available. Beyond that, you are really begging the question... I can assure you 2 + 2 does equal 4, always has, and it still is and will be forever.

 

[bov]

@Greenberg, how common do you think failed attempts are, and what do you think is the most common mistake?

 

[Greenberg]

I have neither the experience nor data to base an opinion. We only really hear of the successful attempts. The unsuccessful ones are rarely broadcasted to protect the identities of the patient. Sorry, I really do not know.