Discussion The universe is God's corpse.

[EmployedHikikomori]

I am a pessimist and as such I'm heavily influenced by philosophers like Arthur Schopenhauer. However I want to talk about a view I hold, that's heavily influenced by a disciple of his, Philipp Mainländer.

In Mainländer's book, Die Philosophie der Erlösung, he argued that the cosmos we live in is actually god's corpse. He believed he was burden of perfections and infinite existenceexistence. Boredom leads to depression after all.

I'm not a religious person, despite being raised catholic. However, I do believe there is merit to this claim in both a metaphysical and theological sense.

Exodus 3:13-15 NIV (New International Version)

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' "This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation.

In the original Hebrew as 'I am who I am', as יהוה or Yahweh. What does that really mean? From what I can gather modern scholars believe that Yahweh translated to "He Brings into Existence Whatever Exists". To me this all points to one word in the name, AM.

Cogito, ergo sum. I think, therefor I am. To be conscientious you have to exit first. You have to be. Am, Is, Are, Was, Were, Be, Being, Been, all those word install existence. God is not a singular being or a legion of beings. He is all of existence, he's all things. He's space, he's time, he's the universe, he's the cosmos. He is all things... And all things are in a state of decay...

Let's bring in some hard science. What started the universe? The big bang! First there was nothing, not even time or space. I'm tempted to call it a void in the either, but we can't be sure. All we know is that a large event brought all exitance into being at once. I'm tempted to call it an explosion because it's called the big bang, but that implies there's a singular center of the universe were it happened. In actually it was more of a stretch that happened everywhere all at once. Any and all point of the universe is the center of the universe. We know this because universe is still expanding, all directions at once. Makes you wonder if it'll ever stop. It will.

We know that the universe as we know it, will die. The energy of the universe can and has been measured. There are several hypotheses on how it'll end but the consensus point to its heat death. When Entropy reaches it's maximum and renders all the energy of the universe useless.

What is Entropy? Basically it the probability of energy ending up in a state of equilibrium with in a large system. Example, place hot pizza on ice. The pizza will cool down as the ice heats up into water. You don't expect the pizza to get hotter as the ice gets colder, right? Technically on a small enough scale, there is a chance that some heat from the ice may transfer into pizza. However the overall trend will have the whole system reach a equilibrium, who cold saggy pizza in a puddle of water.

Entropy is also why we age. It's called the arrow of time for that reason. Unlike space, were you can travel in three directions (or six if you count rotational and translational movements separate), time only goes one way. The best you can do is either to slow it down or speed it up, but it can never stop or reverse. When we get older and our body start to break down, that's Entropy at work. It doesn't stop until we decay, that's after we die.

All this back to the cosmos, it's in a state of decay. Entropy running rampage killing off stars, planets, and it's energy. Not because it's cruel or malicious, but because of its nature as a property of time. The fact that there is life in the universe doesn't change the fact it's dead. Just like how there's life in a decaying body in the form of bacterial, insects, fungus, or what have you. It'll all die at the end.

The end result of all things in the cosmos is to decay and die, reaching equilibrium. We can't fight it or even slow it down to a noticeable rate. We are all apart of God, and God is decaying.

 

[Valky]

Hii,
that's really neatly written, I think it's a very fascinating way of looking at it.
Tho I do wonder, are you up for some discussions about it or is it more of a "I'll just leave it here" thing :)

 

[instormdrains]

The chrisitan framework is incompatable with this theory. Yes God's name is Yahweh or I Am Who I Am. God is infinite/maximal in all his attributes, power, logic, love, truth, knowledge etc etc. Decay is the opposite of something working correctly or growth. The same way how a lie is an absence of truth and is dependent on truth for existence while truth is independent of anything else for existence. Decay would entail a depreciation of a value which is impossible as all of God values are maximal. God can not decay or cease to be he is preexistant and will always exist.

We also believe God is a singular personal being which is the divine essence. If he were all things it would be okay for me to worship the broom in my closet. The premise that he is all things is not found in scripture

You also ignored the fact that heaven and hell is eternal and we will be even more alive in heaven then we were here. You can only get to the conclusion God is decaying if you ignore the rest of the bible

Even if we ignore chrisitanity as you mentioned you arent religious. (I only brought that up cus of the verse) If he caused the big bang then that meant he existed before time which would mean that entropy is extrinsic to God and not intrinsic which means he is not bound by it. The same way how creation is extrinsic (it was created and not prexistant as God is) which would mean everything is not God

 

[EmployedHikikomori]

Hii,
that's really neatly written, I think it's a very fascinating way of looking at it.
Tho I do wonder, are you up for some discussions about it or is it more of a "I'll just leave it here" thing :)

Yes, I'm always up to for a discussion.

The chrisitan framework is incompatable with this theory. Yes God's name is Yahweh or I Am Who I Am. God is infinite/maximal in all his attributes, power, logic, love, truth, knowledge etc etc. Decay is the opposite of something working correctly or growth. The same way how a lie is an absence of truth and is dependent on truth for existence while truth is independent of anything else for existence. Decay would entail a depreciation of a value which is impossible as all of God values are maximal. God can not decay or cease to be he is preexistant and will always exist.

We also believe God is a singular personal being which is the divine essence. If he were all things it would be okay for me to worship the broom in my closet. The premise that he is all things is not found in scripture

You also ignored the fact that heaven and hell is eternal and we will be even more alive in heaven then we were here. You can only get to the conclusion God is decaying if you ignore the rest of the bible

Even if we ignore chrisitanity as you mentioned you arent religious. (I only brought that up cus of the verse) If he caused the big bang then that meant he existed before time which would mean that entropy is extrinsic to God and not intrinsic which means he is not bound by it. The same way how creation is extrinsic (it was created and not prexistant as God is) which would mean everything is not God

I will concede that the Judeo-Christian framework does not fit here. Though I have to ask. We all agreed that the universe is everything correct? There is nothing outside of it because by definition, it is all encompassing. Does that include God? Is he a being outside of reality? And if so, can we ever exit reality to be with him? Of course.If one commits suicide, it will be condemned to hell. But where is hell? Is it also outside of reality?

 

[Valky]

Yes, I'm always up to for a discussion.

Yay, okay.
I was just asking myself why you're using the term "entropy" for biological processes when it is about passive thermodynamic decay? Cause, you know, equating thermal equilibrium with biological rotting conflates statistical physics with biochemistry.
Like you said with the pizza and ice, it's not decay, it's dispersion.

Also, saying god brings into being whatever exists is different from saying God IS existence. So since he isn't existence, he isn't directly tied to our world, I'd say he is more like an on-looker and therefore he is the dynamic but not the universe.

 

[instormdrains]

Though I have to ask. We all agreed that the universe is everything correct? There is nothing outside of it because by definition, it is all encompassing. Does that include God? Is he a being outside of reality? And if so, can we ever exit reality to be with him? Of course.If one commits suicide, it will be condemned to hell. But where is hell? Is it also outside

I think the answer varies heavily depending on the framework you use. Naturally I think through the catholic lense so ill try and answer for an agnostic and a theist. This also is more thinking based rather than the bible say this so please correct me if i make mistakes. I would say that we are apart of the universe rather then we are. The same way a gear is apart of a machine instead of being the totality of the device. As a Christian I would say God is outside the universe since he is preexistant and the universe came into existence. I think this also extends to agnostisism because how could something be caused(universe starting) while the thing that caused it(God) existed with the causation (being apart of the universe thus being subject to entropy) i think in every possibie explanation of God it must be preexistant and not apart of the universe. You seem to have a much more flexible definition of God in your worldview do you understand it to be a being with a conscious or a necessary concept for reality

I think a mistake you may being making is conflating the terms reality and universe. Universe pertains specifically to our time on planets or space while reality relates to things that are true. The universe exists within reality and I would also say reality was prexistant with God. The heavens and the Earth were created in Genesis however the objective truth that God existed was always there before creation. All things are within reality and it might be more permissible to say God is reality alongside all of his other maximal traits. It might be possible to substitute truth for reality. God is required to be all good as mentioned before since evil is a depreciation of Good while goodness is the independent value. Truth is also good which means God is 100% true and I think reality is the collection of 100% true facts.

Heaven and hell are created but they are apart of reality as they are true and existent. I would say they aren't apart of this universe since we cant really take a plane ride to heaven lmao.

Also someone who kills themselves arent damned to hell automatically. The catholic church teaches that to lose fellowship with God as a believer you must do mortal sin. Mortal sin requires grave matter intent and knowledge. Suicide is grave but you must have the will to do it. The issue with this is suicide is often accompanied with distress and mental illness which can violate your will especially if spontaneous. Its not a free pass to do it as its not a good thing to do on the way out and may result in damnation. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the holy spirt (almost impossible to do even if you wanted to) Keep in mind it is essential to repent and accept christ as king to be saved so mortal sin breaks your fellowship but if you never accepted grace to begin with there is no relationship to break

I think the statement God is decaying or God is dead even though I think its wrong could be possible in your framework. Say that God isn't real but a stand in for goodness and say goodness in society is depreciating. However I dont think goodness can exist without an actual God

 

[UserFromNowhere]

Yay, okay.
I was just asking myself why you're using the term "entropy" for biological processes when it is about passive thermodynamic decay? Cause, you know, equating thermal equilibrium with biological rotting conflates statistical physics with biochemistry.
Like you said with the pizza and ice, it's not decay, it's dispersion.

Also, there is no consensus on how the universe will end, there's no consensus on if the universe will stop expanding (in fact, the expansion of the universe seems to be speeding up through undetermined "dark energy"), and it is theoretically possible to send a particle backwards through time (according to simulations on quantum computers) even if we don't have the technology yet. The entire philosophy of science is that it's too complex to make simple, definitive statements from, trying to do so is reducing it to the point of absurdity.

 

[sacrilegeofsouls]

I am a pessimist and as such I'm heavily influenced by philosophers like Arthur Schopenhauer. However I want to talk about a view I hold, that's heavily influenced by a disciple of his, Philipp Mainländer.

In Mainländer's book, Die Philosophie der Erlösung, he argued that the cosmos we live in is actually god's corpse. He believed he was burden of perfections and infinite existenceexistence. Boredom leads to depression after all.

I'm not a religious person, despite being raised catholic. However, I do believe there is merit to this claim in both a metaphysical and theological sense.

Exodus 3:13-15 NIV (New International Version)

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' "This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation.

In the original Hebrew as 'I am who I am', as יהוה or Yahweh. What does that really mean? From what I can gather modern scholars believe that Yahweh translated to "He Brings into Existence Whatever Exists". To me this all points to one word in the name, AM.

Cogito, ergo sum. I think, therefor I am. To be conscientious you have to exit first. You have to be. Am, Is, Are, Was, Were, Be, Being, Been, all those word install existence. God is not a singular being or a legion of beings. He is all of existence, he's all things. He's space, he's time, he's the universe, he's the cosmos. He is all things... And all things are in a state of decay...

Let's bring in some hard science. What started the universe? The big bang! First there was nothing, not even time or space. I'm tempted to call it a void in the either, but we can't be sure. All we know is that a large event brought all exitance into being at once. I'm tempted to call it an explosion because it's called the big bang, but that implies there's a singular center of the universe were it happened. In actually it was more of a stretch that happened everywhere all at once. Any and all point of the universe is the center of the universe. We know this because universe is still expanding, all directions at once. Makes you wonder if it'll ever stop. It will.

We know that the universe as we know it, will die. The energy of the universe can and has been measured. There are several hypotheses on how it'll end but the consensus point to its heat death. When Entropy reaches it's maximum and renders all the energy of the universe useless.

What is Entropy? Basically it the probability of energy ending up in a state of equilibrium with in a large system. Example, place hot pizza on ice. The pizza will cool down as the ice heats up into water. You don't expect the pizza to get hotter as the ice gets colder, right? Technically on a small enough scale, there is a chance that some heat from the ice may transfer into pizza. However the overall trend will have the whole system reach a equilibrium, who cold saggy pizza in a puddle of water.

Entropy is also why we age. It's called the arrow of time for that reason. Unlike space, were you can travel in three directions (or six if you count rotational and translational movements separate), time only goes one way. The best you can do is either to slow it down or speed it up, but it can never stop or reverse. When we get older and our body start to break down, that's Entropy at work. It doesn't stop until we decay, that's after we die.

All this back to the cosmos, it's in a state of decay. Entropy running rampage killing off stars, planets, and it's energy. Not because it's cruel or malicious, but because of its nature as a property of time. The fact that there is life in the universe doesn't change the fact it's dead. Just like how there's life in a decaying body in the form of bacterial, insects, fungus, or what have you. It'll all die at the end.

The end result of all things in the cosmos is to decay and die, reaching equilibrium. We can't fight it or even slow it down to a noticeable rate. We are all apart of God, and God

Well now I don't quite know how that could work because I don't think God can just create the universe and then die or just die in general in the way we think regardless of if he created the universe or not If we are to assume God is like the all powerful creator of everything for God to die he would have to be erased from existence because God also created space and time meaning he is above time meaning he experiences every moment in time simultaneously so he can't die in the future because he would still exist in the past and still experiences the future and hence he didn't die. for him to die he would have to be gone from all moments of time because death as we know it is something that depends on time a timeless death is basically just an erasure from existence so he would have to be gone from the infinite future the present and the infinite past but then again if he created the universe then if he ceases to exist he would be gone before the universe would be created so it would just not exist

 

[Endlichkeit]

First there was nothing

depends on how you define "nothing" Is inflaton field nothing?

To be conscientious you have to exit first

not necessarily. Descartes proves that thinking is occurring, but not necessarily that a substantial "I" exists. Again, what is even "I"?

universe is still expanding, all directions at once. Makes you wonder if it'll ever stop. It will.

We don't know if it will.

We know that the universe as we know it, will die.

Depends on how you define "die", and we also don't know.

The energy of the universe can and has been measured.

No, we can't and it hasn't been measured.

The best you can do is either to slow it down or speed it up, but it can never stop or reverse

Theoretically, any process is reversible, quantum mechanics allows this (unitary evolution is reversible).

 

[_Gollum_]

Nice to see a fellow pessimist on here. I'm reading Ligotti right now and he briefly touches on Mainlander's work, it was my first exposure to him. He definitely has some interesting ideas, seems a bit gnostic-adjacent. I like this quote about him: "Mainlander concludes, we will come to see that "the knowledge that life is worthless is the flower of all human wisdom." Elsewhere the philosopher states, "Life is hell, and the sweet still night of absolute death is the annihilation of hell.""

 

[EmployedHikikomori]

Yay, okay.
I was just asking myself why you're using the term "entropy" for biological processes when it is about passive thermodynamic decay? Cause, you know, equating thermal equilibrium with biological rotting conflates statistical physics with biochemistry.
Like you said with the pizza and ice, it's not decay, it's dispersion.

Also, saying god brings into being whatever exists is different from saying God IS existence. So since he isn't existence, he isn't directly tied to our world, I'd say he is more like an on-looker and therefore he is the dynamic but not the universe.

I admit it's been a while since i've flunked out of college. But from my understanding Entropy is a principle of thermodynamics. Making it one of the fundamentals of physics, by extension of all of existence.

I equated to biological decay, because well that's what causes it.

Entropy is the statistical measure of how spread out energy and matter become in a system. Decay is a visible consequence of this process.

Another example to demonstrate entropy is with an hourglass. Its an isolated system that move forward in a single direction, the thermodynamic entropy always increases. Hemce why its called Time's Arrow.

Also I went to college for engineering, not for theological studies. Again, I was raised catholic, but I'm not religous. If I was, i wouldn't even thought about joinning this site.

 

[Valky]

I admit it's been a while since i've flunked out of college. But from my understanding Entropy is a principle of thermodynamics. Making it one of the fundamentals of physics, by extension of all of existence.

I equated to biological decay, because well that's what causes it.

Entropy is the statistical measure of how spread out energy and matter become in a system. Decay is a visible consequence of this process.

Another example to demonstrate entropy is with an hourglass. Its an isolated system that move forward in a single direction, the thermodynamic entropy always increases. Hemce why its called Time's Arrow.

That's true! At the absolutely fundamental level, thermodynamics govern everything in existence but you gotta differentiate between open and closed system.
The hourglass is a closed system, living organisms however are open systems but that's another story.

Also I went to college for engineering, not for theological studies. Again, I was raised catholic, but I'm not religous. If I was, i wouldn't even thought about joinning this site.

How so? I am religious and here :)

 

[Manfrotto99]

I guess it can be true if you take it solely from physical sense but the Bible needs to be seen from a much wider spiritual lens. God the great "I am" created life as we know it in this physical world and that life is in a state of decay because of the original sin - Christ came to rectify that and give us eternal life through faith in him, even though our physical bodies die - eventually it says he will come again at the end times and defeat physical death so life will no longer decay. At least that's how I understand it...and I'm only saying this based on my very minimal understanding of the Bible.

By the way the Bible does not say taking one's life means you go to hell. Society made that up to control and keep the masses at the bottom suffering so that those at the top don't have to take responsibility...its bull! The Bible actually says that nothing in heaven or he'll, no demons, no principalities and nothing we can or can't do can seperate us from the saving love that is in Christ...He is way greater than the act of anyone taking their life. Thank God

That's true! At the absolutely fundamental level, thermodynamics govern everything in existence but you gotta differentiate between open and closed system.
The hourglass is a closed system, living organisms however are open systems but that's another story.

How so? I am religious and here :)

I would also like to know why? Can't you have faith and still need or desire to cbt?

 

[EmployedHikikomori]

That's true! At the absolutely fundamental level, thermodynamics govern everything in existence but you gotta differentiate between open and closed system.
The hourglass is a closed system, living organisms however are open systems but that's another story.

The universe as a whole is a closed system. Doesn't matter how we individually function, we're all gonna decay with the universe. Or we would if we didn't die before the universe does.

How so? I am religious and here :)

I would also like to know why? Can't you have faith and still need or desire to cbt?

I'm not sure about you two, but I was raised Catholic. And Catholics believe that life is god's greatest gift, and wanting to throw it away is an unforgiveable sin.

"No one may take their own life to escape suffering. It is more honorable to endure suffering than escape it through death. "He who kills himself is a homicide, and so much the guiltier of his own death, as he was more innocent of that offense for which he doomed himself to die" - City of God, St. Augustine

To me, being religious and wanting to CBT are completely incompatible.

I think the answer varies heavily depending on the framework you use. Naturally I think through the catholic lense so ill try and answer for an agnostic and a theist. This also is more thinking based rather than the bible say this so please correct me if i make mistakes. I would say that we are apart of the universe rather then we are. The same way a gear is apart of a machine instead of being the totality of the device. As a Christian I would say God is outside the universe since he is preexistant and the universe came into existence. I think this also extends to agnostisism because how could something be caused(universe starting) while the thing that caused it(God) existed with the causation (being apart of the universe thus being subject to entropy) i think in every possibie explanation of God it must be preexistant and not apart of the universe. You seem to have a much more flexible definition of God in your worldview do you understand it to be a being with a conscious or a necessary concept for reality

I think a mistake you may being making is conflating the terms reality and universe. Universe pertains specifically to our time on planets or space while reality relates to things that are true. The universe exists within reality and I would also say reality was prexistant with God. The heavens and the Earth were created in Genesis however the objective truth that God existed was always there before creation. All things are within reality and it might be more permissible to say God is reality alongside all of his other maximal traits. It might be possible to substitute truth for reality. God is required to be all good as mentioned before since evil is a depreciation of Good while goodness is the independent value. Truth is also good which means God is 100% true and I think reality is the collection of 100% true facts.

Heaven and hell are created but they are apart of reality as they are true and existent. I would say they aren't apart of this universe since we cant really take a plane ride to heaven lmao.

Also someone who kills themselves arent damned to hell automatically. The catholic church teaches that to lose fellowship with God as a believer you must do mortal sin. Mortal sin requires grave matter intent and knowledge. Suicide is grave but you must have the will to do it. The issue with this is suicide is often accompanied with distress and mental illness which can violate your will especially if spontaneous. Its not a free pass to do it as its not a good thing to do on the way out and may result in damnation. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the holy spirt (almost impossible to do even if you wanted to) Keep in mind it is essential to repent and accept christ as king to be saved so mortal sin breaks your fellowship but if you never accepted grace to begin with there is no relationship to break

I think the statement God is decaying or God is dead even though I think its wrong could be possible in your framework. Say that God isn't real but a stand in for goodness and say goodness in society is depreciating. However I dont think goodness can exist without an actual God

Not to sound dismissive, but all this reminds me why I'm no longer religious. In fact, I'd go as far as to say I'm an atheists. A gnostic atheists, in the there is no god at all.

Also, there is no consensus on how the universe will end, there's no consensus on if the universe will stop expanding (in fact, the expansion of the universe seems to be speeding up through undetermined "dark energy"), and it is theoretically possible to send a particle backwards through time (according to simulations on quantum computers) even if we don't have the technology yet. The entire philosophy of science is that it's too complex to make simple, definitive statements from, trying to do so is reducing it to the point of absurdity.

From my understand, there are three ways the universe will end. I already mentioned one of them, the big freeze, also known as the heat death of the universe. You touched on the other two. The the big rip, where the universe will keep expanding until all particles are separated and isolated from each other. And the big bounce, were universe starts all over again, through some quantum nonsense I can't understand.