The meaning of pro-choice

[262653]

You see, they won't come out and say "kill yourselves", but they attempt to silence the helpful voices that talk about solutions other than suicide.

Of course they won't say it, if they they value their membership and don't want to put this site into even more danger. Just like people, who want to die and have planned their demise already, don't visit psychs to tell them about suicidal plans. Well, some of them do...

 

[Smudgedlines]

I lost two friends to suicide fairly close together, earlier this year. They were in a relationship of sorts. None of us saw it coming. It hit me like a train and started some very dark thoughts about suicide.

I often wonder if either were on here, and had a stranger just had that opportunity that those close to them in real life did not have, to say "are you absolutely certain and do you want to talk"... might it have delayed them a day, or a week, and something might've changed....or they might've still gone ahead knowing someone, even a stranger cared enough to ask.

 

[262653]

When I first joined this site I tried encouraging a young person to give life a chance before offing themself. I was called a pro-lifer, in a rather insulting way. So I don't do that anymore. Young people want to die. What can you do? [shrug guy]

Maybe you did what you thought was the right thing... maybe you would feel bad for not encouraging a young person to give life another chance. Who knows? You probably know better than me. I don't think that expressing pro-life stances is prohibited on this forum, but I see how attacks on such stances and those who express them can discourage ppl doing that.

What does pro- prefix even stands for here? Promotion? Propagation?

Unlike a few others on this board, I am very direct in my personal views; people know where I stand; there is no sleight of hand in my approach. There is absolutely no hidden agenda with me. But, how about with some of these others......

Claiming that you have no hidden agenda doesn't necessarily mean that you have no hidden agenda. What it does mean is that you claim to have no hidden agenda. The uncertainty is still preserved. Other than for those who trust the sentiment in question, that is.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I know some folks think it's stalkerish to search someone's previous comments, but that's the nature of a forum. Anything one says can potentially be used later as evidence to try to prove any kind of point.

I was shocked and appalled at the number of very young people here, myself, when I first joined.
I used to say "but you haven't even started living yet", until I got called a pro-lifer, which is an insult hereabouts.
I keep my mouth shut now. It still saddens me, but what can you do?
I'm still trying to figure out if it says more about their generation or the state of the world today. Probably a bit of both, I guess.

@Good4Nothing, I searched for evidence of you being accused of pro-life when you first joined. I sincerely ask that you correct me if I'm wrong, but was the exchange the conversation I've quoted in the spoiler below? If it is, I'm the member you're talking about, and at no point did I call you a pro-lifer. I'm including the OP of that thread for context.

Spoiler

I dont feel young anymore. I turned 23 yesterday. I feel like i am running out of time.

I cant stop crying and worrying everyday. I am sleep over it.

I feel so lost and trapped. I dont know anything anymore. There is so much pressure to have it all figured out and make huge decisons

Not knowing what to do with my life is the ulimate source of distress

I never imagined my life would be like this. At 19 i wanted to make the world a better place now at 23 i want to be dead.

I feel like this will be my life forever.
Living at home in the same neighbourhood, no clear purpose, Single and everyday feeling like a failure.

It saddens that so many young people feel this way.
What I wouldn't give to be 23 again...

Why?
Everything is so confusing at 23

Yes, everything is confusing at 23.
But you literally have your whole life ahead of you.
You've only just begun to live.
There's a whole world out there to experience.
If you're brave enough to CTB, you're brave enough to TRY to live.
TRY to find a life that makes you happy, or at least causes you less pain.
You're 23 and indestructable. The world is here for YOU. Be reckless. Be BRAVE.
You'll be okay.

But...you were 23 once...and you're not okay, according to your posts and "life has killed me."

I think your intentions were good, but this whole comment was just...I'm trying to say this gently, but I don't know how, so I'll just be honest. It sounds like a new age self-help book, or Tony Robbins, or some really good drugs.

Not hating on you, it's just not reality.

I just don't understand this mentality of giving up without trying. Young people opening the door on adulthood, taking one look without even stepping outside and saying "fuck it. I'm out."

What should I say to young people who want to CTB before they've even tried living? "Yah, fuck it. You should kill yourself"?

We reached mutual understanding about it soon after in another thread, I quoted our exchange in the spoiler below. Again including the OP for context.

Spoiler

I am so insecure. On the outside i appear to be happy but deep down i hate what i am . I wish i didnt exist. I am not depressed strangely but i want to stop existing altogether. I am sorry if this post is self centred, whinging , trivial etc.

My insecurities:
- I have not done anything big with my life. I am 23 .Seeing people my age going travelling, getting married, winning tv shows or going on reality tv, having a large social media profile or being a high profile activist bringing about change or working in coropate career etc.I feel like a loser

- I Never had a paying a job i am 23. It is so embrassing. I was never encouraged to work in high school or university. the job rejections furthur the insecurity.

- i am still single and a virgin. It makes me feel unloved and undesired.
Everything is a mess. I see no relief
I feel like i can never overcome this

As long as you hate rather than accept "what" you are -- you're calling yourself lower than "who"! -- then you're going to remain beaten down and unable to move or see anything but the messages on the walls of the condemning prison you're locked in.

Get angry! Fuck the messages, including what everybody else does, because it's not what EVERYBODY does! Don't wait for anyone else to validate you, validate yourself! You have a right to exist because you DO exist, and fuck anyone who has a problem with it. If they don't like it, let them kill you, but don't do it for them, as it's highly unlikely villagers with torches and pitchforks will ever show up at your door, lazy fuckers.

When you first joined, you said you wished you had a mentor. I can't volunteer because I have to focus so much on my own stuff, that's not something I can commit to so I won't volunteer. But this is what I would say to you as a mentor: Goddamnit, get pissed on behalf of yourself. Hug yourself. Validate yourself. You're already valid. Give yourself all the love and advice and acceptance you give to others here, you're really good at it, so focus it where it can be most effective: on YOU. You can fucking do it. Go beat the shit out of something and let that anger wake up, even if it feels weird at first, even if it takes several tries. You're worth the fight for yourself, and no one else can do it for you, so FIGHT. Get yourself out of that dungeon or whatever you define yourself as being held in/held down by. I'm cheering you on. I'll keep yelling that YOU CAN! Inch by inch, take all the rests you need, build up strength, make progress, slip back a bit, rest and build up more strength, and keep going until you're out. You. CAN.

Wait... Didn't you call me "new-age Tony Robbins" in another of FireFox's threads when I was trying to be positive and encouraging?
What gives?

This made me chuckle, not because I'm making fun of you, but because I hear you and also respect your coming back for clarification when it could be perceived that I was being hypocritical. Right on. I'm glad to address it.

I think you and I share in common a fighting spirit, to exhort others to fight when there is something to fight, and to be a kind of warrior-cheerleader for others when they need encouragement. I honor that about you, and I didn't do that before, because I was thrown by the content of the message, which when combined with the tone, made me think of Tony Robbins and new age...propaganda, I guess. I knew then I wasn't stating it well, I hope this will clarify.

For background, this was @FireFox's thread where the conversation took place, and these were our comments:

[See above spoiler]

I took exception to your exhortations not because of the spirit, but because they weren't grounded in reality, and combined with the spirit, that's what made me think of new age and Tony Robbins. Specifically, the comments: "You're 23 and indestructable. The world is here for YOU...You'll be okay." Because no one is indestructible at any age. Because the world isn't really here for anyone, just more amenable to some than to others, and even that can turn on a dime. And because there is no way of knowing if she'll be okay. So to me, it was like getting high -- very uplifting and motivating for awhile, but likely to be followed by a crash.

I definitely got up on a rah-rah soapbox with my previous comment in this current thread and sought, as you did, to motivate. But my underlying purpose was to identify and confront the beliefs I picked up on in the OP of this thread. They seem to imprison her in disempowering illusions, such that, to me, it's like a prison with messages on the walls so that they surround her, entrap her, and dictate her perceptions and experiences. Working with that metaphor, one can escape by identifying and breaking through the illusions.

In my experience, having done years of this kind of focused self-work, and having worked for a time with others who sought the same, it is possible to break free of the prison of such beliefs if one is capable of identifying them, wants to identify them, wants to combat them, and wants both tools and encouragement to do so. However, that may not ultimately be what @FireFox is seeking, whether now or later on, or my way of dealing may not resonate with her, and I accept that. In certain situations such as this one (and this has nothing to do with you), my manner is to get on my soapbox, point shit out, be a warrior-cheerleader, climb back down, and let the one I exhorted do with it as they choose, when they choose. Not everyone connects with my style or my perceptions, and I can't fix anyone, just jump up and down and yell for a bit and, if they seek more, be there as I am able until the issue is worked out, or they move on to something or someone else.

@FireFox, I didn't mean to talk about you as if you're not here. Those last two paragraphs were also for you. In fact, I was planning to return to this thread to follow up and tell you that, while I got excited, I in no way expect you to take on anything I say. If it has value for you, great, and if it doesn't that's great, too. I'm all about autonomy and self-determination. You are your own person separate from me, and have the right to determine for yourself at any time what you seek and what you don't, what you want and what you don't. I spoke with compassionate passion, and I jumped up and down to draw your attention to something I see as harmful to you, but that's about me. How you experience the comment and what you do with it is about you. I deeply respect that and only wish you well.

I wrote that because that's how I felt at 23. Sure, I was miserable and depressed and lonely, but I was determined to experience life, even if it killed me. There were lots of times it should have killed me, but it didn't. Now I can say I climbed a mountain in Alaska and watched the sun set and rise from the top of the world (among many other reckless things I did when I was young and 'invincible'). Couldn't say that if I hadn't done it, and I did it when I was 23.

Thanks for responding, and being civil about it. I think we understand eachother now.

Sorry for the hijack, FireFox.

Thanks for this great response. We do indeed understand each other better now. I'm glad.

Also, a mod later made what I consider to be a really excellent post about younger members on the thread of one who was considering suicide and it's in the spoiler below. The member got attacked with major guilt trips wrapped up in love-bombing by literal pro-lifers trying to interfere and manipulate her to decide to not attempt to ctb. One of them was @MorticiasHair, who had her most egregious comments deleted, and was banned after being warned to stop and kept doing it on this thread. The targeted younger member was so distraught, she was considering leaving SS. Here's the comment by the mod; if you click on the arrow, it will take you to the thread.

Spoiler

hey,

sorry to hear about what you're going through, and i hope you take you're time in thinking about such a decision. regardless, hope you find peace.

just a reminder for users on such threads. please refrain from using age during the discussions of ctb, as a way in guilt-tripping and making a member think twice about their decisions.

i understand that theres empathetic intent to such approaches. however, people need to realize this is extremely counter productive. younger members including myself (being 20) come onto the site, hoping this is an environment thats free of any judgement and criticism of ANY kind. the last thing we'd like is for some members to act like the very same people we try and escape from, in the real world. focusing in on age and telling another member that it gets better and what not, is something we've heard 1938393838 times. it doesn't help, it never will. that isn't the way to help, it makes the entire situation worse and makes OP feel worse.

the point is theres always better ways in providing empathetic support than to simply focus in on a persons age and undermine their maturity. it makes us feel less of a person, invalidates what were going through because of age, etc. its counter productive. all we want is TO BE HEARD, VALIDATED, AND UNDERSTOOD. and this forum will always be an environment thats free of any judgement or criticism towards anyone for anything at all.

if you do feel otherwise, that's completely fine. however, for the sake of OP and the thread itself, refrain from posting such comments about age and selectively targetting younger members, it isn't fair for OP to feel worse and invalidated, nor does the thread invite such discussions.

just a reminder, warnings and possible bans will apply for users that continue to engage in such a manner. it isn't fair to other younger members to feel excluded and invalidated.

take care.

I don't think that expressing pro-life stances is prohibited on this forum, but I see how attacks on such stances and those who express them can discourage ppl doing that.

@Burzolog, it's not prohibited to express pro-life stances but to try to invalidate one's choice and try to get them to change their mind. Folks who are pro-life often use distinct rhetoric, such as, "You're going to hurt your family/the people who love you." They sometimes but not always make it very clear they have an agenda, for example a user name like "lifeisgreat" or "wearewinning," and/or will have a similar signature. They most often target younger members to try to save their lives. @MorticiasHair did a lot of love-bombing and made iffy comments here and there, and then at the end got very overt about her agenda. Pro-life folks who cross the line like this get banned very quickly, which I appreciate because it's the act of an enemy in what is supposed to be a safe space to consider and to decide for one's self whether or not to suicide. The beginning of the site Ruies and FAQ say that this a pro-choice environment and what that means, and it seems to me that mods ban people who make it clear they flat-out deny pro-choice and try to proselytize pro-life/anti-suicide.

 

[262653]

@Burzolog, it's not prohibited to express pro-life stances but to try to invalidate one's choice and try to get them to change their mind. Folks who are pro-life often use distinct rhetoric, such as, "You're going to hurt your family/the people who love you." They sometimes but not always make it very clear they have an agenda, for example a user name like "lifeisgreat" or "wearewinning," and/or will have a similar signature. They most often target younger members to try to save their lives. @MorticiasHair did a lot of love-bombing and made iffy comments here and there, and then at the end got very overt about her agenda. Pro-life folks who cross the line like this get banned very quickly, which I appreciate because it's the act of an enemy in what is supposed to be a safe space to consider and to decide for one's self whether or not to suicide. The beginning of the site Ruies and FAQ say that this a pro-choice environment and what that means, and it seems to me that mods ban people who make it clear they flat-out deny pro-choice and try to proselytize pro-life/anti-suicide.

Yeah, I see. I didn't bother to read (or re-read?) the rules concerning encouragement up until now, but probably they have jumped out of the window of my mind some time before.

 

[mooncake]

Thank you @BipolarGuy for speaking out.

The crusaders" (how I like to refer to them) have been gettinv on my last nerve lately. So much so that I had to take break from this site for a few days and contemplated just leaving all together.

Nice to see @Chupacabra 44 back, after the crusaders flooded your threads.

I feel like they are so misguided. I know I want yo ctb, and there have been people presenting other options to me, when they felt they might have helped me. That never upset me in anyway becahse I know that I'm allowed to make whatever choice I want to. And if you don't like people being reminded of that...isnt that inherently anti-choice?
If you try to eliminate choices for others, under the guise of accepting their decision, that is also anti-choice. I can accept someones wish to leave life, and still hope they don't. I dont have to be enthusitic about other people dying!

I don't like the attitude, that death is the only
solution, and it's the solution for everyone. When we're in distress, we don't always see things clearly. So what's wrong with actually reflecting on your life/your situation, and not think about how you do it, but if that is actually the right choice for you. Which it could be.

Another thing I don't understand is who the crusaders think, appointed them to be the playground sherrif. Don't we have mods on this platform? Isn't it their job to talk to memebrs that are out of line? If you are so upset by seeing an opinion, or an approproach that differs yours, and you feel it is inappropriate, let the mods handle it.

You are not on this forum to police and enforce other people compassion!

If this comes of as bitter, its because I am haha. I came on here because I was literally getting headaches from not being able to express me thought and feelings for so long. I needed to find a place where I didn't always have to keep my mouth shut. I also needed resources on methods and planing. I'm not done, yet so I when I felt like I had to leave this site because of how toxic it became to me, it threw me back so much, since I need this space.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Thank you @BipolarGuy for speaking out.

...And if you don't like people being reminded of that...isnt that inherently anti-choice?
If you try to eliminate choices for others, under the guise of accepting their decision, that is also anti-choice....

Good point.
This is pretty much what's happening.

They're seeking to silence any talk of choices other than suicide, and they do this under the guise of being pro-choice.
But seeking to eliminate any discussion of other possible options is obviously not pro-choice.

As I said in the original post, these people have essentially tried to redefine pro-choice to mean pro-suicide, and any supportive talk will result in an 'accusation' of being pro-life.

This website is needed, but users should be aware that there are some twisted people on here.

I don't think the 'NHS spies' will be encouraging people to kill themselves in fact I think they would be doing the exact opposite, I don't understand what this has to do with your original post

It's ok, you've misunderstood my post.
I attempted to use something commonly known as "humour", by referencing things that have been alluded to in other threads.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Another thing I don't understand is who the crusaders think, appointed them to be the playground sherrif. Don't we have mods on this platform?

But isn't the original post doing just that?

I've observed that when someone states an opinion about how things should be on the forum, the one who reads it is pleased with it when they agree with opinion, and call it policing when they disagree.


About mods, since I've been a member, mods have been pretty inactive on the forum. Yes, they handle reports and complaints, they're not sitting around with their thumbs up their butts. But unlike many other forums, they don't interact a whole lot on the open forum as a fellow member who happens to also be a mod. Mods usually just delete or lock a contentious thread or one that's gone off the rails. They occasionally comment when they lock a thread their reasons for doing so. They rarely step in and try to impact a thread by providing guidance to keep it on track and/or remind folks what the tone or the spirit of the forum is, so the members often determine the tone or the spirit; I've read a lot of past posts, and experienced myself that the tone or spirit tends to shift. As an extreme example, look back at old goodbye threads from 2018 and maybe early 2019. There was often little compassion, people wanted information about the method used, the OP often wasn't the focus. There were arguments and derailing. And people rarely said, "It's okay to change your mind" or "Are you sure?" The behavior was pretty atrocious imo, and things are almost totally different now in that respect.

Maybe it would help if you tag mods in your comment and ask them to weigh in, especially since the topic being discussed has been coming up quite a bit recently. I think in general, people tend to get frustrated when they don't have clarity about rules and when they don't feel an issue that's important to them is being addressed. Of course you don't have to if you don't want to, it's just a suggestion, and it's motivated by empathy for what it's like to feel frustrated.

 

[MrBigSad]

So many of us come here to talk things through rather than ctb. It's assumed that we're here just to end it. But I don't think that's the reason most people come here and Im sure kind words are always welcome, offering help shouldn't be seen as being "pro-life".

To many people this world is a cruel and horrible place which is why so many want to leave it. To see that hatred and manipulation bubble over into what we had hoped was a safe domain is frankly just sad.

 

[BipolarGuy]

But isn't the original post doing just that?

While I may be biased as I am the author of the OP, I do disagree.

I think that a few members hiding behind the rules to sway the forum into a more pro-suicide culture, the meaning of 'pro-choice' being subtly redefined to actually mean pro-suicide, these members harassing others who offer empathy and peer-support, and using 'pro-life' as an infantile insult is entirely different to speaking out against this behaviour.

You may disagree.
That is your choice :)

 

[Infinite Conscious]

When I first joined this site I tried encouraging a young person to give life a chance before offing themself. I was called a pro-lifer, in a rather insulting way. So I don't do that anymore.[shrug guy]

Exactly the same happened to me... I was called a pro-lifer, while I couldn't be more pro-choice.
But when I hear teenagers and people in their early 20's want to CTB because of a single (and usually very temporary) reason - it really feels very wrong.
I stopped encouraging any behavior.
But I haven't really noticed any pro-death minority, although I have noticed the OP's outrage several times.
I guess a few "predators" do pass by here.

 

[Futile]

We should respect people's opinions, if someone wants to go other people have no saying in the matter. By giving false hope you're only gonna make things worse.

Also, the free random insults you wrote in this thread indicate that you're a hateful person, so you have no right to criticize others

 

[BipolarGuy]

We should respect people's opinions, if someone wants to go other people have no saying in the matter. By giving false hope you're only gonna make things worse.

Also, the free random insults you wrote in this thread indicate that you're a hateful person, so you have no right to criticize others

Who are we referring to here?

 

[Futile]

Who are we referring to here?

I was speaking in general, for anyone that comes here saying they want to ctb

Or maybe you were referring to the free insult? In any case it's this one:

Maybe they're not getting laid and they blame the world.

Completely unrelaed to anything else and made only to make the "opponent" look worse

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

We should respect people's opinions, if someone wants to go other people have no saying in the matter. By giving false hope you're only gonna make things worse.

Also, the free random insults you wrote in this thread indicate that you're a hateful person, so you have no right to criticize others

Everyone has a "right" to criticize others, we are not living in totalitarianism. I never noticed that BipolarGuy was being hateful. He's one of the nicest people I've met on this forum.

 

[Smudgedlines]

Hateful? Wow.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I was speaking in general, for anyone that comes here saying they want to ctb

Or maybe you were referring to the free insult? In any case it's this one:

Completely unrelaed to anything else and made only to make the "opponent" look worse

The getting laid comment was obviously an attempt to explain why some members (a handful, primarily) seem to want to discourage others from helping vulnerable, depressed members.

It was a throwaway remark made to make a point.

And I don't have to talk about the sex life of the people I'm highlighting to make them "look worse".
Their behaviour tells everyone all they need to know.

 

[Futile]

And I don't have to talk about the sex life of the people I'm highlighting to make them "look worse".
Their behaviour tells everyone all they need to know.

Yet you did, you threw a completely unrelated insult for no reason at all.

It's also funny how you separate the people who can't get laid (which it's clear you deem to be unworthy of respect) from the "normal" depressed people who are worthy of respect only if they have sex.

I can't comprehend how you can consider yourself to not be an hateful person

 

[BipolarGuy]

Yet you did, you threw a completely unrelated insult for no reason at all.

It's also funny how you separate the people who can't get laid (which it's clear you deem to be unworthy of respect) from the "normal" depressed people who are worthy of respect only if they have sex.

I can't comprehend how you can consider yourself to not be an hateful person

Oh ok, so you think that I believe that only people who regularly engage in intercourse are worthy of any type of respect?

Laughable.

But I'm not going to go round in circles with you.

Have the most wonderful day, and if you need to offload on to anyone, please feel free to drop me a PM.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

While I may be biased as I am the author of the OP, I do disagree.

I think that a few members hiding behind the rules to sway the forum into a more pro-suicide culture, the meaning of 'pro-choice' being subtly redefined to actually mean pro-suicide, these members harassing others who offer empathy and peer-support, and using 'pro-life' as an infantile insult is entirely different to speaking out against this behaviour.

You may disagree.
That is your choice :)

I respectfully disagree. Please know that my tone is calm throughout this comment.

Whoever they are -- you haven't quoted any examples to support your claims -- as far as I can tell, they criticized your actions, labeled your actions as pro-life, and/or labeled you as pro-life. They may or may not have told you to stop doing what you are doing. You have labled this policing the forum.*

You are criticizing their actions, making ad hominem attacks, labeling them, and insulting them, both in the OP and in comments. However, you say you are speaking out rather than policing, which is a stance of righteousness and privilege. The rhetoric of binary opposition labels them as negative and you as heroic, but so far it appears that the actions are the same or similar on both sides.

My mother used to verbally abuse and beat me, and she thought it was righteous and privileged to take out her rage on me because she was a Christian, because I dared to stand up to her and question her irrationally controlling actions, and because she was "correcting" my behavior (a word you've also used), but it was still highly negatively charged, and it wasn't clean fighting. My experience of what you've written in the thread is that you are not engaging in clean fighting.




*I do not agree nor disagree that the trend is happening that you claim. I need to see evidence. When I call things out and am challenged, I provide evidence. The burden of proof is on the accuser.

I wish you well.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I respectfully disagree. Please know that my tone is calm throughout this comment.

Whoever they are -- you haven't quoted any examples to support your claims -- as far as I can tell, they criticized your actions, labeled your actions as pro-life, and/or labeled you as pro-life. They may or may not have told you to stop doing what you are doing. You have labled this policing the forum.*

You are criticizing their actions, making ad hominem attacks, labeling them, and insulting them, both in the OP and in comments. However, you say you are speaking out rather than policing, which is a stance of righteousness and privilege. The rhetoric of binary opposition labels them as negative and you as heroic, but so far it appears that the actions are the same or similar on both sides.

My mother used to verbally abuse and beat me, and she thought it was righteous and privileged to take out her rage on me because she was a Christian, because I dared to stand up to her and question her irrationally controlling actions, and because she was "correcting" my behavior (a word you've also used), but it was still highly negatively charged, and it wasn't clean fighting. My experience of what you've written in the thread is that you are not engaging in clean fighting.




*I do not agree nor disagree that the trend is happening that you claim. I need to see evidence. When I call things out and am challenged, I provide evidence. The burden of proof is on the accuser.

I wish you well.

It's ok. I know that you intend for your tone to always be calm.

Allow me to address some of the things you have said.

I and others who have experienced or witnessed this do not need to constantly pull out hundreds of direct quotes or PM's in order for what we say to be 'valid'.
I've made over 900 comments myself and I can't remember on what threads they were all made, so expecting people to remember where comments were made, or to sit for hours searching, or to have a stash of 'evidence' ready to present is not practical.
As I said, this doesn't invalidate what we have witnessed or experienced.

Just to be clear, I was not the user who labelled their actions as "policing the forum".

If you wish to draw a comparison between me (and others) standing up to a minority of apparently pro-suicide members on an internet forum with how your devout Christian mother beat you and justified it on religious grounds due to you feeling that religious belief is irrational, please go right ahead, but I (and I suspect most other members) won't see it the same way.

As regards burden of proof and evidence.
This is not a court, and I am not preparing to submit a scientific paper for peer review.
Nor am I trying to convince anybody that this is happening.
If you wish to believe it isn't, then that's fine.

 

[Mm80]

But isn't the original post doing just that?

I've observed that when someone states an opinion about how things should be on the forum, the one who reads it is pleased with it when they agree with opinion, and call it policing when they disagree.


About mods, since I've been a member, mods have been pretty inactive on the forum. Yes, they handle reports and complaints, they're not sitting around with their thumbs up their butts. But unlike many other forums, they don't interact a whole lot on the open forum as a fellow member who happens to also be a mod. Mods usually just delete or lock a contentious thread or one that's gone off the rails. They occasionally comment when they lock a thread their reasons for doing so. They rarely step in and try to impact a thread by providing guidance to keep it on track and/or remind folks what the tone or the spirit of the forum is, so the members often determine the tone or the spirit; I've read a lot of past posts, and experienced myself that the tone or spirit tends to shift. As an extreme example, look back at old goodbye threads from 2018 and maybe early 2019. There was often little compassion, people wanted information about the method used, the OP often wasn't the focus. There were arguments and derailing. And people rarely said, "It's okay to change your mind" or "Are you sure?" The behavior was pretty atrocious imo, and things are almost totally different now in that respect.

Maybe it would help if you tag mods in your comment and ask them to weigh in, especially since the topic being discussed has been coming up quite a bit recently. I think in general, people tend to get frustrated when they don't have clarity about rules and when they don't feel an issue that's important to them is being addressed. Of course you don't have to if you don't want to, it's just a suggestion, and it's motivated by empathy for what it's like to feel frustrated.

Very much agree with this point GPE and I'm glad you pointed it out...

an extreme example, look back at old goodbye threads from 2018 and maybe early 2019. There was often little compassion, people wanted information about the method used, the OP often wasn't the focus. There were arguments and derailing. And people rarely said, "It's okay to change your mind" or "Are you sure?" The behavior was pretty atrocious imo, and things are almost totally different now in that respect.

 

[depression999]

If this website was really pro choice then why is no one allowed to be pro life? Wanting to stay alive is a choice that someone has made, Which means that this website should support those people too? Or am I just crazy?

 

[262653]

If this website was really pro choice then why is no one allowed to be pro life?

Hahaha! I Love it!

On a slightly more serious note (one note closer to serious, maybe two), what if the choice of one individual is to step over the choice of another?

 

[Mm80]

If this website was really pro choice then why is no one allowed to be pro life? Wanting to stay alive is a choice that someone has made, Which means that this website should support those people too? Or am I just crazy?

Because both pro life and pro suicide is a biased point of view. Pro choice recognises both views and is more balanced.
You can be pro choice and tell someone that you don't think ctb is a good idea in my opinion. Problem comes in when you push your bias onto others.
Its a very tricky subject and a bit of a tightrope tbh

 

[NextSummer]

Pro-life in this forum nearly doesn't exist: If you keep your personal details to yourself, nobody can identify you and nobody can stop you from suicide in real life. Everything is pro-choice here.

What some people mean with "pro-life" in this forum is simply objecting to a suicide plan. That is just freedom of expression. Nobody can expect to live a life without being criticized or in which plans doesn't get objected to. This is normal.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It's ok. I know that your tone is always calm.

I'm glad you understand that. In this comment I am still calm.

Allow me to address some of the things you have said.

Okay. In return, allow me to respond with analysis and constructive criticsm of what you have said, not of you.

I and others who have experienced or witnessed this do not need to constantly pull out hundreds of direct quotes or PM's in order for what we say to be 'valid'.

"I and others" is triangulation, which creates an impression of power against me, who is speaking alone and standing alone.

"Do not need to constantly pull out hundreds of direct quotes or PM's in order for what we say to be 'valid.'" -- As far as I know, you've never pulled out any, so I don't see that there's been any extraordinary effort on your part, or on the part of others. Please correct me with evidence if I am in error.

This is the first time PMs have been mentioned that I am aware of, so I get the impression you're piling on more evidence on top of the implied overwhelming evidence that has never been presented. I would hope you don't quote PMs because they are private communications.

I've made over 900 comments myself and I can't remember on what threads they were all made, so expecting people to remember where comments were made, or to have a stash of 'evidence' ready to present is not practical.

There is a search function, so if you recall using certain terms (e.g., "pro-life" or "bitter souls), you can narrow them down by adding your username to the search. This is a stash of ready evidence and is highly practical. And, respectfully, whatever I expectations I may have for you to provide evidence to support your claims, it is only of you, not of "people," which is a subtle triangulation that implies I am being onerous to many people, and anyone who agrees with you may cued to think that I am onerous to them as well.

As I said, this doesn't invalidate what we have witnessed or experienced.

It has neither been invalidated nor invalidated.

Just to be clear, I was not the user who labelled their actions as "policing the forum".

In post 40, you quoted me to defend yourself when I was commenting to the member who used that term and asked, isn't it policing the forum? It has gotten conflated, but I will resist being pedantic and concede my error.

If you wish to draw a comparison between me (and others) standing up to a minority of apparently pro-suicide members and how your devout Christian mother beat you and justified it on religious grounds, please go right ahead, but I (and I suspect most other members) won't see it the same way.

First, I'd like to point out "me (and others)." This is a triangulation. I am only speaking to you about what you said in the OP and what you have said directly to me in this thread.

I don't wish to draw a comparison and don't need encouragement or permission to go right ahead, I already did. That was condescending and therefore belittling phrasing. It's also subtle but powerful shaming.

Another triangulation, that not only you but also other members won't agree to my comparison.

I'd like to make two constructive criticisms here: 1. Using others as a shield and as a way to make yourself bigger reveals that you don't feel strong enough or big enough in your position to stand alone against me. 2. Belittling reveals that you felt small in response to my comparison, and so tried to make me smaller than you. While I strive to speak to you eye to eye, you attempt to push me down and put my in my place. Someone else used to do the same thing, she was a close relative. She could never admit her position wasn't solid, and being called abusive triggered cognitive dissonance when she clung to being right and righteous, therefore she doubled down and fought me for fighting back when she was fighting.

As regards burden of proof and evidence.
This is not a court, and I am not preparing to submit a scientific paper for peer review.
Nor am I trying to convince anybody that this is happening.
If you wish to believe it isn't, then that's fine.

This is an evasion and shifting the conversation off the forum into other locations.

The statement about not trying to convince anyone that this is happening is a strawman argument. You triangulated multiple times, you belittled me, and if that didn't knock me from my position, then you created a new situation to knock me down, and of course it would be wrong if I had made such an erroneous claim. It's a red herring, and I'm not going to take the bait and fight with you about something that isn't even happening. The final sentence is belittling me for believing something I don't believe.

StrawPersonEffed is quite ashamed, though, for making that accusation and believing it when it's not true. She's a right dumbarse and she knows it.


(I admit I gave in to the temptation at the end to employ humor and that it was also sarcastic. The thought just cracked me up. If you are offended, I'll concede that to you as well.)

 

[depression999]

Because both pro life and pro suicide is a biased point of view. Pro choice recognises both views and is more balanced.
You can be pro choice and tell someone that you don't think ctb is a good idea in my opinion. Problem comes in when you push your bias onto others.
Its a very tricky subject and a bit of a tightrope tbh

but pro life is said in such a negative way on here and I think it's wrong. I don't think we should judge others for enjoying their lives because we are not enjoying ours. I think the majority can understand why someone takes their own life when they know the circumstances surrounding that decision. However with that being said it's not nice for anyone to hear of it happening especially when it comes to a family member or friend. Of course if a family member or friend found out you wanted to ctb they would try and stop you and it's more than likely not because they're against suicide it's because they don't want to lose you.

 

[Mm80]

but pro life is said in such a negative way on here and I think it's wrong. I don't think we should judge others for enjoying their lives because we are not enjoying ours. I think the majority can understand why someone takes their own life when they know the circumstances surrounding that decision. However with that being said it's not nice for anyone to hear of it happening especially when it comes to a family member or friend. Of course if a family member or friend found out you wanted to ctb they would try and stop you and it's more than likely not because they're against suicide it's because they don't want to lose you.

Fair point. Only thing Id say is that because a lot of people feel negative about life on here, it's probably normal that a little bit of bias against Pro life will show. Doesn't mean it's right but human nature maybe?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

but pro life is said in such a negative way on here and I think it's wrong. I don't think we should judge others for enjoying their lives because we are not enjoying ours. I think the majority can understand why someone takes their own life when they know the circumstances surrounding that decision. However with that being said it's not nice for anyone to hear of it happening especially when it comes to a family member or friend. Of course if a family member or friend found out you wanted to ctb they would try and stop you and it's more than likely not because they're against suicide it's because they don't want to lose you.

First, pro-life is a narrow ideological stance. Akin to abortion, suicide is wrong, and no individual "should" make the choice to suicide, nor consider it. On should repress that immediately and use their reason if they possess it to get help. If they do not possess such reason, as it is the only reasonable and logical thing to do, then someone must step in and make sure they become that logical. They may need the emergency intervention of a locked psych ward for their own good, because they're incapable of knowing what's for their own good.

As far as what a friend or family member would of course do, that's a strawman argument. It makes all unique friends and family members into a stereotype and says for all of them, "This is logical. Of course we don't want to lose you."

A pro-choice stance, which is also ideological but broader, says the individual has the right and the capacity to choose for themselves whether to live or to die. This is particularly reflected on the forum when people celebrate that a member decides to live and mourns when a member decides to die. It is non-attachment to either outcome and therefore does not seek to impose one, nor to seek unduly influence another's choice for whatever personal or ideological reason. Pro-life supports only one choice and only has one kind of input. If one does not comply, then control and undue influence is justified in that ideological framework.