Discussion "Suicide is an offense against God" argument

[LittleMonkey]

What do you think about my response to it?

First we'll assume that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing God. It naturally follows that everything which exists - exists because God wills it. Therefore things which are against God's will cannot exist. Suicide exists. Conclusion: suicide is not against God's will, so it CANNOT be an offense against him.

Some may say that this line of thinking can be used to justify anything - murder, rape and so on. And that's true! If God exists, God is okay with rape, that's the simple truth. Problems arise when you add the all-good attribute to the mix, but I see no good rational reason to do that.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Either a god is ok with it or there is no god (or higher being).

 

[why am i alive?]

Well I don't believe in God, but going with the narrativ:

God createt death, as something that should exist. So if we assume he invented it so humans fear it and so we don't overpopulate, he is not happy that we created suicide out of death. Because that gives the risk of underpopulation, and it risks his authority above us.

Again I don't believe in him, but if he were to exist, this would make most sense to me.

 

[Mi Mi]

What do you think about my response to it?

First we'll assume that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing God. It naturally follows that everything which exists - exists because God wills it. Therefore things which are against God's will cannot exist. Suicide exists. Conclusion: suicide is not against God's will, so it CANNOT be an offense against him.

Some may say that this line of thinking can be used to justify anything - murder, rape and so on. And that's true! If God exists, God is okay with rape, that's the simple truth. Problems arise when you add the all-good attribute to the mix, but I see no good rational reason to do that.

I try to stay away from it all.
Im more confused then ever because there is so much contradiction.
And when I question the contradictions I'm told I don't believe enough.
I don't have enough faith.
I'm not trying hard enough.
And that just breaks me down because I have tried.
It also breaks me down because it sounds like I have to follow rules and guidelines for love and blessings that I thought were unconditional.
Makes no sense.
So right now I have a very strained relationship with God.

 

[lemonbunny]

i think anyone who believes in a good God already assumes His existence is compatible with an evil/fallen world, so idk how this is novel or really helpful to persuading religious folk (which i assume is your audience). you're pretty much discussing the problem of evil which is a large point of debate in apologetics.

basically, to a religious person who says "suicide is bad bc God!" you are saying "but YOUR type of God doesn't exist" which is sort of a different issue altogether

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm not sure that there is a God but my argument would be more that this is a test. A series of tests. Why are there such things as sins? And, why are they things we really want to do? Gluttony, lust, envy, wrath etc. You could even argue we are programmed to do those things. It's natural to feel horny or hungry. But- God wants us to resist in order to prove how much we love them. I'd say obedience is maybe number one in religious qualifications. You can only really test obedience when you prohibit things people want to do or- you ask them to do stuff they don't want to do.

So, it seems to me like God is wanting and sifting out a certain type of person. For what though- who knows? And why they would need to go through this to begin with- who knows? If God wanted a specific type of follower, surely they could just create the perfect drone.

That tends to make me think God is what we would think of as a human narcissist. First of all, they insist on everyone worshipping them. If they don't, if they start worshipping other Gods- they throw a tissy. If Lucifer is anything to go by (a fallen angel,) we can't even question their judgement and ideas. But- we have been created (by God presumably) being able to question. We naturally have inquisitive minds. So- I get the impression God likes the long game. Rather than just make the perfect, obedient servant, God seems more flattered by people who have the ability to rebel but don't. People who choose to follow them. So- God wants to manipulate us to adore them.

I expect religious folk will also start blaming the devil if they're really at a loss but then- you have to ask- isn't God stronger than the devil?

Personally, the way it's framed- I see heaven as some elite club that they can't wait to turn people away from. But I do agree. Even with the above example, it doesn't exactly paint God in a kind light. Design a test, design participants that have massive flaws that mean they will likely fail that test and then feel justified in sending them to hell when they do. That's one hell of a f*cked up moral compass! But sure- if humans were made in Gods image- why not? There are some pretty sick humans around. God surely wins the prize for the most perverse mind though because, like you say- all that we do has to be a reflection of them- if they are that all powerful and actually realised what they had created. Personally, I hope that there isn't a God. I'd say we're all screwed if there is one.

 

[MannyAntsy]

It's difficult to argue with someone who uses "because God said so" as an argument. In their mind, god is inherently good and correct about everything while mortals are not, meaning there is no way you could be more logical than god. Some religious people are reasonable and open minded, using religion as a guide and way to find peace, but others use religion as a tool to justify shoving their way of life down your throat. Even if you do beat the latter in an argument, they'll probably just get pissy and call you a degenerate or something.

 

[INTJme]

First time I'm hearing this argument...
Anyway, if it's true, I'd like to go all-out with my offence!
I'm talking blasphemy, sacrilege, and everything else the so-called "God" forbids.
Maybe even build an army of sorts.
Would be amazing if I could expunge him from his throne.
Surely, the world would be a better place then.

 

[Raindancer]

I guess the way I look at it. God created everything so He can make whatever rules He wants. As much as He is love His is also just. Yes, as a Christian, I do believe in Satan and he wants the exact opposite of what God wants. He wants to destroy everything and cause chaos. Whether you look at it as obedience or wanting to please God as He gave us everything, we try and follow His commandments, but it is impossible so He sent His Son Jesus to reconcile us to Him. We cannot stand in front of the Holy Creator with all of our sin, so God himself made a way for us to be sinless, if we accept the gift He sent.

Think of it this way, let's say you can create your own universe. You would need to make certain rules, laws in order for it to function. Without such it would be chaos. As a Christian I believe the Commandments are for us to flourish and for our own good. We are the ones rebelling and making a mess of things. God is not a genie in a bottle to give us our every wish. We will have much travail in our lives and it isn't easy. But I've walked on my own and I've walked with God. For me, even with all of the pain and challenges and not understanding everything I choose to walk with Him.

But please, do not think God is OK with all the evil that happens. But even if we have done bad things, we can still turn to Him and ask forgiveness.

 

[Meteora]

And when I question the contradictions I'm told I don't believe enough.
I don't have enough faith.
I'm not trying hard enough.
And that just breaks me down because I have tried.

That's bullshit and so abusive.... I know that and such people are hypocrites who take themselves too important. Just disgusting such a behaviour. I m sorry you experience that too.

It's difficult to argue with someone who uses "because God said so" as an argument. In their mind, god is inherently good and correct about everything while mortals are not, meaning there is no way you could be more logical than god. Some religious people are reasonable and open minded, using religion as a guide and way to find peace, but others use religion as a tool to justify shoving their way of life down your throat. Even if you do beat the latter in an argument, they'll probably just get pissy and call you a degenerate or something.

A lot of people feel entitled to behave as God himself and that for sure has nothing to do with real faith. That's just stupid and poor.
________________

I found about three passages in the bible where suicide occures. And there is no judgement about suicide in the bible. It is all humans who think they know it all. In my opinion, they abuse "God's" word. And that can't be ok.

 

[MortalityScares]

Well I don't believe in God, but going with the narrativ:

God createt death, as something that should exist. So if we assume he invented it so humans fear it and so we don't overpopulate, he is not happy that we created suicide out of death. Because that gives the risk of underpopulation, and it risks his authority above us.

Again I don't believe in him, but if he were to exist, this would make most sense to me.

Bumping this.

I've personally been off/on spiritual (Never full on religious, but I was very into Roman Catholic and some Christian values) and this is how I personally saw it. I'm agnostic, I'm open to the fact that there may be a God, but I have my doubts. Regardless, this point makes a lot of sense. Thank you for this

 

[ijustwishtodie]

God doesn't exist but, if they do exist, then suicide is just within their creation too. Which raises a question, if something can be done by a human which counts as a sin, why does god allow that thing to exist? Of course every religious person would default to the idea of "life being a test" but how can this apply to suicide when basically most suicidal people are suicidal because of extreme suffering. What kind of test is there for those who are suffering to the point where they can't handle it? It's like testing knowledge of advanced calculus to a bunch of kids in kindergarten. It's just too challenging for what the human being can handle. The fact that this point even exists makes religion seem man made as no loving and just god would see this oversight and think it's just