MrDarkness

MrDarkness

Left sasu, to improve my life
Jun 18, 2023
1,067
People are happy to support suicide here then support the option of help.

By support I mean people thinking it's the only fix, and it doesn't help that more and more people are coming in thinking that suicide is the fix, mainly extremely young such as 18 to 20, like these ages are incredibly young and to say you tried everything is quite the stretch, now yes you can make a case that some people have illnesses that can't ever be cured etc, I'll support your choice, but I will never and I mean never support suicide more then getting help

Btw imo anti natalism is cringe, I didn't ask to born but I'm not gonna shit on a happy family for having kids
 
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MeltingBrain

MeltingBrain

Mage
May 29, 2023
563
True, but that's probably because there is a general upsurge in anti natalism thinking thanks to the internet
Why do you think so ? I don't see any anti-natalist comments except for here .
 
L

loopdaloop

-
Apr 16, 2023
323
Why do you think so ? I don't see any anti-natalist comments except for here .
idk i'm chronically online and i've come across anti natalist line of thinking on almost every platform including youtube and spotify. it doesn't get much views, but there is a little upward trend that's happening because gradully more people are introduced to this. I came across anti natalism for the first on a thread in a general discussion forum in my native language where someone wanted to discuss this philosophy
 
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D

donewithlife1

Member
Oct 31, 2023
81
Pro choice! If it wasn't for this site I prob did something impulsive to hurt myself.. we have some good people here who really cares and I think it's helping better than psychiatrists… the fact I want to die is not going anywhere I want to die asap I'm just looking to see the best option with the resources I can find around me..
 
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WonderingSoul

WonderingSoul

Gamer
Dec 15, 2021
327
I joined in 2021. This site was way more pro-death than pro choice (and I liked it that way a bit more tbh). Nowadays its more closer to being pro-choice, which is completely fine. I just don't want this place becoming reddit 2.0
 
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Seered Doom

Seered Doom

A nihilist going through an unrelinquished Hell
Sep 9, 2023
882
This site has evolved and I understand not liking change. I do. That being said, the site is a lot more pro choice than, as WonderingSoul says, it was in earlier time periods.
 
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Seered Doom

Seered Doom

A nihilist going through an unrelinquished Hell
Sep 9, 2023
882
to a censorship degree
 
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WonderingSoul

WonderingSoul

Gamer
Dec 15, 2021
327
I don't use reddit. What do you mean by reddit 2.0? Pro-life?
Kinda. When I refer to reddit, im referring to those mental health subreddits where people on there then to argue a lot, give terrible advice, or straight up just become banned. I don't want this place to be like that.
 
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J

jessisme

Specialist
Dec 3, 2022
383
It's only natural that many of the people who have been ruined by the world, don't want to hear anything positive about it. However, for those of us able, promoting pro choice here is 100% what we want. I guess what I'm saying is it's a website full of mentally ill people on death's door, it would be naive to assume everyone is going to act in a healthy manner.

Just because you are suicidal it does not mean that you are mentally ill.
 
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todeswunsch

todeswunsch

On overtime in life
Oct 19, 2023
160
Kinda. When I refer to reddit, im referring to those mental health subreddits where people on there then to argue a lot, give terrible advice, or straight up just become banned. I don't want this place to be like that.
Oh I see, thank god I'm not in these reddit lands hahaha
Also don't here to be like that
 
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Seered Doom

Seered Doom

A nihilist going through an unrelinquished Hell
Sep 9, 2023
882
It's a lot easier to say most whatever you need to here. I even was able to dump some of my nsfl thoughts while in bad bouts of anger and PTSD episodes.
 
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ohyouknow

ohyouknow

Member
Jun 11, 2022
76
I see a lot of people reminding people that it's not too late to change their mind and keep living. I see people happy to see someone who had just tried to ctb, and apparently did not make it to the stop on time. I don't see many people actively encouraging each other to ctb. I think, ofc, many of us are pro-death for ourselves.
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,706
I don't find this site to be pro-death, but more "pro-choice" as most people that I've encountered seemed to respect one's decision on whether to continue fighting or deciding enough is enough in terms of life. Almost no other space has the same level of compassion, respect, and maturity when it comes its' members with regards to the right to die. In fact, there is even a recovery section which is focused on people who have decided that they no longer wish to CTB and wish to take steps to improve their predicament.
 
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Sunny13111

Sunny13111

Trying not to live for others
Oct 24, 2023
21
I agree with pro choice, I used to be a samaritan but not necessary such detailed how tos on this website. People will find a way of they need. We don't need to spell it out. Maybe in wrong? I don't know but my intuition tells me this.
 
R

Riig

Gott, es tut mir leid.
Nov 15, 2023
21
People are happy to support suicide here then support the option of help.

By support I mean people thinking it's the only fix, and it doesn't help that more and more people are coming in thinking that suicide is the fix, mainly extremely young such as 18 to 20, like these ages are incredibly young and to say you tried everything is quite the stretch, now yes you can make a case that some people have illnesses that can't ever be cured etc, I'll support your choice, but I will never and I mean never support suicide more then getting help

Btw imo anti natalism is cringe, I didn't ask to born but I'm not gonna shit on a happy family for having kids
Pretty much, im pretty certain the whole downwardspiral into anti-natalism "Billions must die" thinking comes from the newer members whom are largely really young and part of the post-meaning generation, barely any of them had any actual Parents, Ideals, a Faith or Religion, Identity or kinship with their Land or its People and tend to adopt an anti-reality stance in general since they never experienced proper forms of it that arent just corporate or copes. "Village outcast" Stereotype, they dont have much love for anything and where never able to see reality through the hate and want to see everything burn.
 
achb

achb

I am Clive
Oct 23, 2023
133
I can see where this is coming from tbh. I think most here are pro-choice, but the weirdest voices speak loudest. It's hard to see them over the "life is pain" "we're only on this earth to suffer" "people who think being brought into this world is a good thing are being deluded" ppl.

There are definitely pro death people here who just don't think of life as a good thing for people in general. But I would argue they are a minority

Despite what the anti-natalism post responses might lead you to think 😬
 
MrDarkness

MrDarkness

Left sasu, to improve my life
Jun 18, 2023
1,067
Pretty much, im pretty certain the whole downwardspiral into anti-natalism "Billions must die" thinking comes from the newer members whom are largely really young and part of the post-meaning generation, barely any of them had any actual Parents, Ideals, a Faith or Religion, Identity or kinship with their Land or its People and tend to adopt an anti-reality stance in general since they never experienced proper forms of it that arent just corporate or copes. "Village outcast" Stereotype, they dont have much love for anything and where never able to see reality through the hate and want to see everything burn.
Damn couldn't have said it better bro
 
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DT2007

DT2007

reincarnation
Oct 9, 2023
197
I think the problem with society is that death is generally viewed as something unnatural these days. Life and death go hand in hand, there is none wothiut the other. Old people are kept alive for the dake of their relatives. People who suffer are firced to continue their suffering. Suicide is generally viewed as something "wrong". There are cultures where it used to have it's place. But in our world today it's all about living no matter the cost. Pro choice means that there is a choice and there is. Pro Life and pro death are both anti choice. so this place i feel like pro choice. People on here are individuals with their own feelings and needs and no matter hiw they find this place helpful and or comforting. And don't forget, suicide is nothing that needs "promoting" as many claim. People kill themselves with or without SaSu. Have been and always will be. Because it's their individual choice to do so. Think of SaSu whatever yiu want, everyone is here for their own reason and it's imho goid that this place exists. A community of diverse imdividuals.
I can understand that people who have lost someone through suicide are shocked. But as they can not talk to the deceased about the why they make up their own stories in their heads. And if they loved that person one or the other way they of course need someome to blame and wish that it didnt happen and then try to "help" other that it doesn't happen to them. It's all to human. But if you leave people the air they need gibe them thevsupport they want, they can make a choice. The thing about other people's choicescis that you don't have to like them but you should accept them. Which is hard to do. Here on SaSu i read a lot and meet genuine lovely people and never came across anyone so far who was not supportive in some way or the other. People you can talk to about things that you can't in real life and that's comforting and nice.
 
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thewalkingdread

thewalkingdread

Life is a pointless, undeserved, unnecessary pain.
Oct 30, 2023
489
this site has taken a sharp anti-natalist turn .
What's the problem with that? Is being an anti-natalist a bad thing?

suicidal people are more inclined to read into it

Yeah, they are.

And that's because, as I wrote in another thread, ALL the people in this forum, with their diverse life backgrounds, if they were given the option between (1) Killing themselves or (2) Never being born, they would choose (2) because it's always "better" never to have been in the first place.

For suicidal people, this is what anti-nalism truly means. They will always end up choosing never being born instead of killing themselves...

imo anti natalism is cringe, I didn't ask to born but I'm not gonna shit on a happy family for having kids

This is a gross misconception of what anti-natalism is. No one is shitting on a "happy" family for having kids. This is a strawman fallacy.

(To say 'having a kid is an immoral act' is not the same as 'I'm going to shit on someone for having a kid')

im pretty certain the whole downwardspiral into anti-natalism "Billions must die" thinking comes from the newer members whom are largely really young and part of the post-meaning generation
they dont have much love for anything and where never able to see reality through the hate and want to see everything burn.

You have the grossest misconception possible of what anti-natalism is.

Anti-natalism is about new people not being born, in order to prevent unnecessary suffering.

Anti-natalism is not about mass murdering 8 billion people. Again.... Strawman fallacy.
 
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Viranamari

Viranamari

A Future Corpse
Feb 22, 2023
293
I don't quite agree. People who wish to live can go to the recovery section while people who wish to suicide can go to the suicide discussion section. I believe no one should be forced to live but at the same time, no one should be forced to die either. If you think this way, you can choose not to visit this website. After all, no one should be obliged to do anything.
 
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𝗟𝗼𝗻𝗲𝗹𝘆

𝗟𝗼𝗻𝗲𝗹𝘆

Deeming that I were better dead
Oct 28, 2023
197
To those who try justifying pro-death in this forum:
This website is pro-choice. Neither pro-life nor pro-death is very welcomed here. If you yourself want to die - it's your business, it's your decision and you shouldn't be neither taken away from it nor pushed into it.
I see quite a bit of people glorifying death as in general and saying that it's the ultimate goal we all should search for. I see people insulting those who want to live as they're foolish and stupid for wanting to live in such cruel, awful world. I don't think that if your life is miserable you should try to drown other people in your misery. I don't think that if you want to ctb you should try convincing other people to do so just because you view it as the right thing to do. Yes most people here want to ctb, not al tho, and even if, it should be their and their decision only without anyone's influence.
 
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NumbItAll

NumbItAll

expendable
May 20, 2018
1,090
The site is either too pro-life or too pro-death depending on which complaint thread you are reading :pfff:
 
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MeltingBrain

MeltingBrain

Mage
May 29, 2023
563
What's the problem with that? Is being an anti-natalist a bad thing?
I find it very irrational .
1. Most people's happy moments far exceed their painful ones , Only a handful of people like us have fallen through the cracks.
2. The premise of consent only applies when you are born in the first place , since one can't ask the person being born his opinion ,the closest we can come to a rational decision is making a probability call , whose odds very much favors having a limited number of kids .
3. Taking some risk to make something great (making a child) always commands more respect in my book than being fearful . The exception to this are people who cant raise a child for whatever reason , because the chances of making a broken child and adding more suffering goes up significantly rather than a healthy and productive child .
 
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Mistiie

Mistiie

This is a Junly moment
Nov 10, 2023
205
I'd argue it's pro-choice with a skew towards pro-death. Most people here are generally pro-choice, but with a forum as open as suicide as this one, you'll always bring in individuals who agree that death is the right choice for anyone, let alone suicidal people who want to make that decision themselves. It's just a consequence of this forum probably being the largest pro-choice forum on the Internet. I would've said Reddit's r/SuicideWatch was that but that subreddit's a thinly veiled support forum, not a suicide discussion one.

Regardless, I would say most people here typically lean towards pro-choice, but given the amount of content that leans towards suicide as a positive and the fact that the Suicide Discussion subforum is so prominent and popular compared to, say, Recovery, you'll always find that the forum as a whole leans towards a more cynical and hateful view towards life as a whole.
I find it very irrational .
1. Most people's happy moments far exceed their painful ones , Only a handful of people like us have fallen through the cracks.
2. The premise of consent only applies when you are born in the first place , since one can't ask the person being born his opinion ,the closest we can come to a rational decision is making a probability call , whose odds very much favors having a limited number of kids .
3. Taking some risk to make something great (making a child) always commands more respect in my book than being fearful . The exception to this are people who cant raise a child for whatever reason , because the chances of making a broken child and adding more suffering goes up significantly rather than a healthy and productive child .
This is exactly how I feel towards anti-natalism in general.

It's a very short-sighted and cynical view of reproduction and other people's lives that only takes into consideration the feelings of the anti-natalist, not the views of the children or their parents. Most people won't ever feel as bad as we have, or if they do, they typically get better with medications and therapy. Anti-natalists have a skewed view of that, though; they're more inclined to believe that suffering has permanence in everyone's lives, when it doesn't. However, it's difficult to figure that out if you haven't experienced it yourself, which many anti-natalists have not. It's only people who understand how common happiness is in people's lives, or in most scenarios contentment, that see how self-centred and naive anti-natalism usually is.

Furthermore, as a result of that skewed view, and the belief that suffering is a permanent or near-permanent state in life, they always think that it is better not to have felt than to have done so, which usually means that, should a child not be born out of that notion, then they will also never have been able to have felt happiness and so you may in fact be denying them happiness out of a fear for suffering, which is unfounded given the previous statement of how most people aren't suffering in their day-to-day lives. That denial of happiness, is that not suffering in its own right, even if it's solely in the mind of that person who causes that act? To me, I would say that denying potential happiness to anyone is propagating suffering, even if it's not in the child's experience, if only because they're not going to experience because you didn't give them a chance at life. It deprives other's lives of experiences with that individual. It never lets them exist in the first place. A good thought experiment is to think what your life would be like if an anti-natalist view had gotten to one of your friend's parents, or your parents, or theirs before that. Would your life be for the better or worse? Would they have benefitted from this? More often than not, it's a resounding no. That lack of existence, in practice, almost never turns out to be of any use to anyone unless the person is notoriously evil. This links with your first and second points mostly.

I've yet to come across someone who can give me any deeper understanding as to why anti-natalism is a valid and worthy philosophy of even bothering to understand or follow since most people parrot the antithesis of your/my first and second points, and when these are rejected by those first and second points, they don't really have anything to counter it with. I personally believe anti-natalism is sort of a "baby's first radical philosophical belief", in that it really does not hold any substance when you look at it from any angle with any sort of lens, but it appears to do so when it goes unchallenged, which most people are uninterested in doing.

You'll also have people mentioning what is and isn't anti-natalism. Most anti-natalists really have no clue what anti-natalism is. I've come across people thinking they're anti-natalist for not wanting to have kids. That reason alone isn't enough. It goes to show it's a very misunderstood philosophy, even if it's almost comically simplistic and weak. Another common thing for "anti-natalists" to do is they'll give you their views and spout them as being the views of many. One example I saw was someone saying that every suicidal person should be an anti-natalist, because they [the anti-natalist] would prefer to not exist and suffer than to be born. It's a very weird thing that many anti-natalists fall into, thinking their thoughts are everyone's. Not everyone feels the same way, nor suffers the same way, as those anti-natalists. It's due time that they realise that most people actually have enjoyed life, and would rather go through it again, just end it at a point before they end up suffering, rather than not have experienced the thing at all.
 
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C

conflagration

Student
Jul 29, 2022
181
Being pro-death is actually pro-choice considering that all other resources are pro-life. So this site acts as counterbalance.
 
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MrDarkness

MrDarkness

Left sasu, to improve my life
Jun 18, 2023
1,067
What's the problem with that? Is being an anti-natalist a bad thing?



Yeah, they are.

And that's because, as I wrote in another thread, ALL the people in this forum, with their diverse life backgrounds, if they were given the option between (1) Killing themselves or (2) Never being born, they would choose (2) because it's always "better" never to have been in the first place.

For suicidal people, this is what anti-nalism truly means. They will always end up choosing never being born instead of killing themselves...



This is a gross misconception of what anti-natalism is. No one is shitting on a "happy" family for having kids. This is a strawman fallacy.

(To say 'having a kid is an immoral act' is not the same as 'I'm going to shit on someone for having a kid')



You have the grossest misconception possible of what anti-natalism is.

Anti-natalism is about new people not being born, in order to prevent unnecessary suffering.

Anti-natalism is not about mass murdering 8 billion people. Again.... Strawman fallacy.
Immoral act 🤣 same thing pal
 
thewalkingdread

thewalkingdread

Life is a pointless, undeserved, unnecessary pain.
Oct 30, 2023
489
I find it very irrational

Ok... You are entitled to have that opinion.

But is that opinion a supported, valid, rational conclusion — derived from the premisses, or points, you've enumerated?!

Well... Let's analyse it.

1. Most people's happy moments far exceed their painful ones , Only a handful of people like us have fallen through the cracks

This is the most controversial, difficult, point you've made. And it's not only the propositional content of your argument who's to blame for it...

This controversy mainly stems from the fact that it's not a simple, easy, task to quantify subjective experiences in a more or less "objective" way. Henceforth, the only truly easy thing — when we try to cross these murky waters — is to be mislead by false or unwarranted assumptions.

You've actually made two problematic, complementary, propositions here. I need to unpack them and rewrite/paraphrase them in order to explicit their meaning in a clear way:

(a). A majority of people has, overall, more "happy" "moments" than painful ones in their lives.

(b). A minority of people has, overall, more painful "moments" than "happy" ones in their lives. (Like "us", "the cracked" ones, on this website... I must confess this remark really "cracked" me up! 🥠🍪😂)

What evidence do you have to support any of these two claims?

Because if you're assuming things to be true just because of wishful thinking, then I can act in a similar way and say the following counter-claims:

(A). A majority of people constantly — and actively — deceive themselves to believe that they have, overall, a more pleasureable predicament than a painful one.

(B). A minority of people is less prone to this self-deception mechanism and, therefore, believe that they have a more painful predicament than a pleasureable one.

Which claims are true? Yours or mine?

I'm obviously biased towards my own POV just like anyone else... But I can safely say that my claim is far better supported by the data we have about the harsh reality of the world.

Here. Have a nice look at the HDI plotted in a world map, have a nice overview of how "bad" it is overall:

1200px HDImap spectrum2006

I think everyone can clearly SEE what's the real minority... The "white", eurocentric, post-colonial, "Western", "democracies".



2. The premise of consent only applies when you are born in the first place , since one can't ask the person being born his opinion ,the closest we can come to a rational decision is making a probability call , whose odds very much favors having a limited number of kids .

Yes, I grant that it's kinda nonsensical — at a first glance — to expect consent from a hypothetical, contra-factual, baby that hasn't even been born yet, and would need to be at least 18 in order to legally make some serious decisions with his life, like buying alcohol at an liquor store.

This really strikes most people as sheer nonsense at first... Philosophies — and philosophers — usually have that effect on the common sense. They're not exactly "party people".

When you stop to really think about it, however, the consent argument starts to make a lot of sense and you begin to notice how important it actually is.

Here's a thought experiment:

A happily married couple has sex every single day. (This is sheer nonsense already 😂). But... One night, the wife is so, so, absolutely, tired that she falls asleep, like a motionless rock. The husband, thinking that they're so used to having sex everyday, keeps up with their habit, all the same, assuming she wouldn't mind it, even enjoy it, even if she is actually completely unconscious.

Question: did the husband raped his wife? Well... Tecnically, yes. Because this was clearly an instance of non-consentual sexual intercourse.

What shall we conclude from all this "nonsense"?! That the consentment issue becomes even more relevant precisely when there is no one capable of giving it in the first place.

TLDR: If you can't get consent from a person who's will can possibly contrapose your own will or who's well-being is going to be directly affected by your action, without them having any say-so whatsoever, you should not commit said action. It's no nonsense, it's no irrationality — and, conversly, it's a pretty well thought, reasonable, moral standard to live by.



3. Taking some risk to make something great (making a child) always commands more respect in my book than being fearful

Again, you are entitled to have any preference or values you want.

You are not entitled, however, to make an emotional appeal fallacy and ascribe an emotional stance to the person defending a thesis you disagree with. It's a very manipulative thing to do.

Who says-so that an anti-natalist is advocating against procreation because he's "fearful"...?! Not the anti-natalist, for sure.

That's not a fair statement. Anti-natalism is not in any way a cowardice, as you ignorantly suggested. Not wanting to GAMBLE with other people's lives is not cowardice. It's actually an act of empathy and genuine respect for others.

TLDR: you are making the same bad argument, similar to the ones suicidal people hear from "pro-life" idiots ALL the time: "I have no respect in my book for suicidal people... Choosing to kill oneself is sheer cowardice."



@Mistiie you are welcome to read this reply, since, tecnically, i'm not replying to you. Who knows... maybe you'll learn something this time!
 
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