Resource SN / Water Amount Lookup Table [ v2 ]

[jgm63]

Updated from prior version. Changes :
Different SN amount calculation, to reduce the variation based on bodyweight
1 tablespoon of SN assumed to be 18.5g instead of 30g
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background :
100mg per kg is considered a lethal dose (as mentioned in Stan's guide)
Stan's guide states : 20g in 50ml water for regular size person / 25g in 50ml for "large" person
We will assume a weight of 100kg for "large".
So that points towards 250mg per kg
This is a "very lethal dose", i.e. a reliable dose.

SN / Water Amount Lookup Table
This table is loosely based on 250mg per kg, however that exact figure is only applied at the 100kg weight.
For other weights, we apply a factor to lessen the variation and "pull back" a little towards the 25g of SN amount.
Formula used :
s = (100 + (w - 100) * 0.6) * 250/1000
where s is the amount of SN in g, w is the bodyweight in kg
The expression (100 + (w - 100) * 0.6) is a "virtual weight", to which the 250mg per kg is applied. The 0.6 factor means we only apply 60% of the weight difference from the 100kg reference point (or we ignore 40% of the weight difference that's above or below the 100kg reference).

Note : The above formula is "heuristic". It is based on an opinion of what seems a reasonable approach. No claims are made regarding the validity of that opinion. The information is for illustrative purposes only and can be viewed as suggestions you may wish to consider. No advice is given. No claim is made regarding the information's suitability for any particular purpose. Any use of this information shall be entirely at your own risk.

Using kitchen scales should always be the preference (cheaply available online).
Use the teaspoon / tablespoon amounts only if scales are unavailable.



Teaspoon / tablespoon notes :
Kitchen scales should always be the preference, but people may not have access to them (things can get chaotic/rushed, money runs out, life happens, etc), so the approximate spoon measurements are given.
Theoretically, 1 tablespoon is 15ml, and SN density is about 2g per ml, so a tablespoon should be about 30g of SN. However, people here taking measurements have had lower results eg 23g or even 15g.
Regular salt (sodium chloride) has about the same density, yet a tablespoon of salt is typically quoted as about 17g (not 30g), so applying official densities doesn't always seem to pan out (perhaps it depends on how fine or coarse the substance is).
Based on the various factors above, an assumption of 1 tablespoon = 18.5g of SN has been used. 1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons is also assumed.
The figures quoted assume a "normal" tablespoon, eg a "moderately rounded" tablespoon (or perhaps a "level" tablespoon if using an actual measuring spoon rather than a tableware spoon). Ditto for teaspoons.
If you use "heaped" tablespoons then you may need less, eg if the lookup table states 1.5 tablespoons, then you could use 1 "generously heaped" tablespoon. Ditto for teaspoons.

Please post any suggestions for improvements, etc.

 

[Quarky00]

KISS . 2.4 teaspoons , 41ml , 26.5g .. I prefer :

<60 :20g
60-100: 25g
>100: 30g

Again it's very deductive (theoretical rather than practical)

I don't see a reason why I should take 20g/40ml rather than 20g/50ml , for example .

The water amount should be minimized but not critical .

It's SN weight that counts .

And difference between 21g or 23g is not that important .

All and all I think this may confuse more

 

[jgm63]

KISS . 2.4 teaspoons , 41ml , 26.5g .. I prefer :

<60 :20g
60-100: 25g
>100: 30g

Again it's very deductive (theoretical rather than practical)

I don't see a reason why I should take 20g/40ml rather than 20g/50ml , for example .

The water amount should be minimized but not critical .

It's SN weight that counts .

And difference between 21g or 23g is not that important .

All and all I think this may confuse more

Not that I'm biased or anything (hmmmmm....)
Just my opinion of course, but :

Ok, although these sudden "steps" in SN amount (rather than sliding scales) are not necessarily justified, are they ?
Someone of 105 kg might unnecessarily increase their vomiting risk by consuming the additional 5g of SN.
Personally, a "sliding scale" seems more logical to me.
The table is just there to give a "rough guide", and comes with several necessary disclaimers.
We are all aware that at present SN dosage is not a "scientific matter", but based on rules-of-thumb.
But I still think we can try to pick our rules-of-thumb as well as we can.
It seems logical to me to try to reduce the dosage a little *where possible* since that may reduce the chance of vomiting, and since the amounts we are dealing with are still very much lethal, I don't see a big downside.
Taking 2 or 3 grams less in some cases might prevent or lessen vomiting, which could be very beneficial.
Also, I think the table is pretty simple to use really as well.
It has another key benefit, which is often, people making attempts can get a little flustered at the last minute (in theory this shouldn't happen but for many reasons, it happens), and this table can provide a reasonable and easy to follow reference, especially where the person doesn't have scales available....
Obviously if somebody can step in with some concrete reasons why the approach I've suggested is flawed, then of course I may well drag my table to the trashcan in a heartbeat....

So there you are, completely unbiased.....

 

[squirtsoda]

Also maybe helpful tidbit, if people do not have graduated cylinders or something else to measure their water with, simply put a container for their water on the scale, zero it out and "weigh the milliliters". 1g=1mL=1cc.

 

[enjolras]

Taken out of the "Guide for a self-chosen humane death" book, it suggests another way of addressing drugs' dosage to get some inspiration (here the anchor point is a range, not a single data point)

 

[br0kenMIND72]

This thread is so interesting that I measured my own tablespoon. My mother has big plastic cup and it shows 100 ml, 200 ml etc. and it took 7,5 tablesoopns to fill up 100ml water so my tablespoon is around 13,(3) ml and you know everybody can have different tablespoons.
I think that to measure SN I should have kitchen scale and I found that they are very cheap so, now I know what to buy to be successful.
I still don't know when I'll CTB and I don't want to play with SN just yet but It would be intersting to know how much my tablespoon will have g of SN in it.

Also normal wikipedia states that "a 65 kg person would likely have to consume at least 4.6 g to result in death " but Stan states that "100mg of SN per every kilo of your weight is a fatal dose" so my fatal dose should be 5.8g (I am 58kg) but I know I should take more just to be sure. I wonder If I would take 15g in 50ml so that should be lethal and maybe not that salty or intense to cause vomit.

This method is very interesting to me and If I'm gonna do it I wanna do it right and everyday I'm learning something new about it and thanks to this thread I know I should just buy a kitchen scale, I don't trust tablespoon. Thanks!

 

[jgm63]

[ posting some notes to myself ]

In some sources, around 70mg/kg is quoted as fatal.

From https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/File...0/ba878fffce/ERMA200570-QA-sodium-nitrite.pdf :
"The oral lethal dose for humans has been estimated to vary from 33 to 250 mg nitrite/ kg"

 

[rat.girl]

What would happen if I were to double the reccomend dose? For example, the chart says I should take 1.1 tablespoons. Can i maybe do 1.5 or even 2 tablespoons just to be cautious? Would it cause any unpleasant side effects if I use too much?

 

[jgm63]

What would happen if I were to double the reccomend dose? For example, the chart says I should take 1.1 tablespoons. Can i maybe do 1.5 or even 2 tablespoons just to be cautious? Would it cause any unpleasant side effects if I use too much?

The amounts used in the charts are already *very* generous (as explained in the text above the table).
Unless you are a *very* large person, 2 tablespoons would be too much, and might increase the risk of vomiting, for no benefit.

I would simply go by what is in the table....
I gave quite a lot of thought when creating it, and tried to make sure it had plenty of "margin for error" built in, so I believe it to be a fairly reasonable guide.

But.... Keep in mind that kitchen scales should be used.
The spoon measurements are a backup if you really can't access scales for some reason....

If you do use the spoon measurements, then note that the figures assume a "moderately rounded" tablespoon (or perhaps a "level" tablespoon if using an actual measuring spoon rather than a tableware spoon). If you use "heaped" tablespoons then you may need less, eg if the table states 1.5 tablespoons, then you could use 1 "generously heaped" tablespoon. The same goes for teaspoons.

 

[jgm63]

There is no reason to use the weight of NaCl when you should be using the true weight of Sodium Nitrite. I used a chemical calculator that i have used many times. (I am an MD and hold a PhD Pharmacology). If you look it show that 1 metric tablespoon of Sodium Nitrite powder is equivalent to 18.02 grams. Please use these calculations rather than gestimates, much more accurate :)

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Sodium Nitrate, ground
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Speaking of accuracy, please note that you have selected Sodium Nitrate rather than Nitrite.
(aqua-calc.com doesn't appear to have data for Nitrite).

It's also worth noting that you've selected *ground* Sodium Nitrate, which is fine (if we had the correct substance).

However, I assume the coarseness of grinding would impact the resulting density, so I think there's an inherent "aproximateness" here...

Also, dealing in spoon measurements is inherently approximate, and we can also note that the dosages in grams are inherently approximate in the first place.

I wasn't able to easily find a quoted density online for Sodium Nitrite powder / ground Sodium Nitrite.

Due to these various factors, I don't see a need to republish the table at this point....

If I discovered that ground sodium nitrite had a very different density to the figure I've used, then I would reconsider, however I don't believe that to be the case....

 

[Suez]

Speaking of accuracy, please note that you have selected Sodium Nitrate rather than Nitrite.
(aqua-calc.com doesn't appear to have data for Nitrite).

It's also worth noting that you've selected *ground* Sodium Nitrate, which is fine (if we had the correct substance).

However, I assume the coarseness of grinding would impact the resulting density, so I think there's an inherent "aproximateness" here...

Also, dealing in spoon measurements is inherently approximate, and we can also note that the dosages in grams are inherently approximate in the first place.

I wasn't able to easily find a quoted density online for Sodium Nitrite powder / ground Sodium Nitrite.

Due to these various factors, I don't see a need to republish the table at this point....

If I discovered that ground sodium nitrite had a very different density to the figure I've used, then I would reconsider, however I don't believe that to be the case....

OOps i had a few tables up on my laptop last night .Ive posted the wrong one. My apologies. I will go back and get the correct one and post that. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[someonewillhelpme]

@jgm63 ,@Quarky00, @Living sucks and other experts on SN: For a person who weighs about 89lbs or 40kg, would the lethal dose be 15g dissolved in 32ml water ?
I know 25g is recommended in 50ml water. Based on what I read in this thread and Stan's resource, would I have to decrease it to 14 or 15g. I am concerned whether 25g would be too much and cause vomiting. But I'm also concerned whether 15g might not be fatal.

 

[Living sucks]

I am no expert .. but at your weight 15-20g is plenty. I think 25g might be too much for you.
The lethal dose is calculated at 2.6g btw in general literature. So if you follow the guidelines at least for fasting you should be ok. Do you have any health issues like gastric issues ?

 

[jgm63]

@jgm63 ,@Quarky00, @Living sucks and other experts on SN: For a person who weighs about 89lbs or 40kg, would the lethal dose be 15g dissolved in 32ml water ?
I know 25g is recommended in 50ml water. Based on what I read in this thread and Stan's resource, would I have to decrease it to 14 or 15g. I am concerned whether 25g would be too much and cause vomiting. But I'm also concerned whether 15g might not be fatal.

100mg per kg is considered a lethal dose.
The table above is based on 250mg per kg, which is a "very lethal dose", i.e. a reliable dose.
And for lower weights, the mg per kg amounts used are even higher (see the formula explanation in the first post of this thread if you want to understand more).

In summary, the amounts used in the charts are *very* generous, and I would simply go by what is in the table...
I gave quite a lot of thought when creating it, and tried to make sure it had plenty of "margin for error" built in, so I believe it to be a fairly reasonable guide.

So yes, for 40kg, 15 or 16g dissolved in 32ml water would be comfortably more than enough....

 

[someonewillhelpme]

@jgm63 and @Living sucks : Yes, I could tell that you both gave this topic a lot of your attention and time. Much gratitude to both of you for sharing your knowledge. I feel reassured to know that 15-16g in 32ml water would be enough. Much gratitude.
@jgm63 and anyone who can add their input : I am sorry I missed one of your comments. So if we go with the formula, 100mg SN/kg, then for 40kgs, it would be more like 4g SN. And even if we go with 250mg/kg, it would be 10g SN. So wouldn't 15g -16g be too much, almost counterproductive by causing vomiting. Could you please clarify how you arrived at 16g. Much gratitude.

 

[Quarky00]

@jgm63 ,@Quarky00, @Living sucks and other experts on SN: For a person who weighs about 89lbs or 40kg, would the lethal dose be 15g dissolved in 32ml water ?
I know 25g is recommended in 50ml water. Based on what I read in this thread and Stan's resource, would I have to decrease it to 14 or 15g. I am concerned whether 25g would be too much and cause vomiting. But I'm also concerned whether 15g might not be fatal.

Information:

• Stan says 20gX3
• PPH says 25gX1 (updated)
• For overweight: add 10g
• For underweight: nothing!
  • PPH is for possibly underweight -- old & fragile
• Failures were with 30g+

My conclusion:

• Use 25g X 1 with 50ml water (unless over 100kg)

Re post:

• I did not see Stan recommending 15g

This table is confusing and should be abolished:

• SN does not show linear weight ratio as suggested here (see medical uses)
• Increased dose compensate for large organ/blood volume (metHb) and slower metabolism
  • Such differences do not exist between 40kg or 60kg person
• If current PPH is 25g -- I wouldn't take almost half of recommended dose
• Measures here cause confusion
  • Without this post people wouldn't wonder or play with dosage -- yet succeed
• Measures here are against PPH
  • For 100kg PPH says 35g , this table says 25g , wtf?
  • For 60kg PPH says 25g , this table says 19g , wtf?

 

[jgm63]

@jgm63 and @Living sucks : Yes, I could tell that you both gave this topic a lot of your attention and time. Much gratitude to both of you for sharing your knowledge. I feel reassured to know that 15-16g in 32ml water would be enough. Much gratitude.
@jgm63 and anyone who can add their input : I am sorry I missed one of your comments. So if we go with the formula, 100mg SN/kg, then for 40kgs, it would be more like 4g SN. And even if we go with 250mg/kg, it would be 10g SN. So wouldn't 15g -16g be too much, almost counterproductive by causing vomiting. Could you please clarify how you arrived at 16g. Much gratitude.

The formula explained in the first post of this thread shows how the values are calculated.

10g is probably enough for a 40kg person, however to ensure the dose is reliable, the formula increases it a bit.

The formula takes a balance between using 250mg/kg multiplied by weight, and using "25g" as a "standard" (if you read the first post, it explains how the formula works).

Please keep in mind that in general, SN dosages are not really especially "scientific" to the best of my knowledge.
I'm not aware of any in-depth study of fatal SN dosage.
So I think in general there is an element of "best guess".

The aim of my table is to try to avoid lighter people having to take a higher dose than they need to, while still trying to be cautious and avoid dropping the dose too low....
The table represents my personal "best guess" of what seems to me to be a reasonable approach.....
The first post includes a disclaimer that explains this.

If I discover that there are guidelines derived from careful and methodical study, conducted in a scientific fashion, based on enough data points to be convincing, then I may re-publish my table based on those guidelines, and discard my "heuristic" formula, although I would first want to examine the methodology used to determine such guidelines, to assess the validity of the guidelines....

 

[someonewillhelpme]

@jgm63 : Yes I understand, thank you.

 

[jgm63]

Information:

• Stan says 20gX3
• PPH says 25gX1 (updated)
• For overweight: add 10g
• For underweight: nothing!
  • PPH is for possibly underweight -- old & fragile
• Failures were with 30g+

My conclusion:

• Use 25g X 1 with 50ml water (unless over 100kg)

Re post:

• I did not see Stan recommending 15g

This table is confusing and should be abolished:

• SN does not show linear weight ratio as suggested here (see medical uses)
• Increased dose compensate for large organ/blood volume (metHb) and slower metabolism
  • Such differences do not exist between 40kg or 60kg person
• If current PPH is 25g -- I wouldn't take almost half of recommended dose
• Measures here cause confusion
  • Without this post people wouldn't wonder or play with dosage -- yet succeed
• Measures here are against PPH
  • For 100kg PPH says 35g , this table says 25g , wtf?
  • For 60kg PPH says 25g , this table says 19g , wtf?

For 100kg and below, PPH says 25g, and it states 35g for weights above 100kg.
I don't find it logical to say : "if you're 98kg, take 25g, if you're 102kg, take 35g".
Was that based on a scientific and methodical study, or is it just a "best guess" by the PPH authors ? (My guess is the latter).
To me, a sliding scale seems more logical.

When you search online for sodium nitrite lethal dose or LD50, you will see plenty of references to mg/kg.
So there seems to be support for weight-based dosage calculation.

In my view, someone who weighs 50kg does not need to take 25g, and may be increasing their risk of vomiting if they do.

Nobody is forcing anybody to use this table.
I included a disclaimer.
People can decide for themselves.
I think many people share the view that a lighter person should not need to take 25g, and I think this table provides a balanced reference for people who have that view....
The table is still very much biased towards listing generous quantities. The calculations are based on more than 250mg per kg for people under 100kg.

If I discover that there are guidelines derived from careful and methodical study, conducted in a scientific fashion, based on enough data points to be convincing, then I may re-publish my table based on those guidelines, and discard my "heuristic" formula, although I would first want to examine the methodology used to determine such guidelines, to assess the validity of the guidelines....

 

[Emily123]

it is possible to use a kitchen scale to get the SN weight but how about 50ml water . Does anybody know how to measure that much of water?

 

[MissKatrina]

it is possible to use a kitchen scale to get the SN weight but how about 50ml water . Does anybody know how to measure that much of water?

1ml water equals to 1g. :)

 

[Yavannah]

what about people that are not overweight but have a very fast metabolism?
should i also take more SN just to be on the safe side?
my body metabolizes medicine very fast i always have to take higher doses to feel the effect
also cant gain weight no matter how much i eat
can someone please help?
im so worried because of this :(

 

[DyingMiND]

what about people that are not overweight but have a very fast metabolism?
should i also take more SN just to be on the safe side?
my body metabolizes medicine very fast i always have to take higher doses to feel the effect
also cant gain weight no matter how much i eat
can someone please help?
im so worried because of this :(

I don't have a clear answer to your question unfortunately. For example, since your metabolism is "high" compared to others and that you said you have to take higher doses of meds to get an effect, it could be that the enzyme which reduces methemoglobin back to hemoglobin works faster. So maybe you would have to take a higher amount but I'm not totally sure. However, the greater amount you ingest, the greater the likelihood of vomiting. So, you would have to judge for yourself. Personally, I think that sticking to guidelines are good but, as you have already read in this post, some say to take less according to your weight... Both SN and water. That's a choice you'll have to decide on your own. You could also post this question in the main SN megathread and see what others say.

 

[Pedronte]

what about people that are not overweight but have a very fast metabolism?
should i also take more SN just to be on the safe side?
my body metabolizes medicine very fast i always have to take higher doses to feel the effect
also cant gain weight no matter how much i eat
can someone please help?
im so worried because of this :(

Isn't 25gm a good amount? I'll use that even if the chart says 17.5gm is what I need.
But I don't know if you would vomit. Antiemetic and an extra dose can help.

 

[DyingMiND]

Isn't 25gm a good amount? I'll use that even if the chart says 17.5gm is what I need.
But I don't know if you would vomit. Antiemetic and an extra dose can help.

This isn't the best thread to post questions about the amount (especially because it's an old thread) but to answer your question, I think it should be more than enough. Mostly everybody vomits even though they used an AE. It may just lessen the degree of vomiting.

 

[Yavannah]

I don't have a clear answer to your question unfortunately. For example, since your metabolism is "high" compared to others and that you said you have to take higher doses of meds to get an effect, it could be that the enzyme which reduces methemoglobin back to hemoglobin works faster. So maybe you would have to take a higher amount but I'm not totally sure. However, the greater amount you ingest, the greater the likelihood of vomiting. So, you would have to judge for yourself. Personally, I think that sticking to guidelines are good but, as you have already read in this post, some say to take less according to your weight... Both SN and water. That's a choice you'll have to decide on your own. You could also post this question in the main SN megathread and see what others say.

Hi
thank you for answering!
yes thats exactly my fear that too much methemoglobin gets converted back.
and the other scenario: that my body has metabolized the SN before im dead meaning that theres damage done but not enough to kill me waking up in a vegetative state
i think im going to take the recommended 25g and drink the other prepared 25g last seconds before i pass out
this could lead to the possibility of me heavily throwing up while unconscious
and also failing my attempt..
why does it feel like i cant win no matter what? :(
I want to go through with it im so ready but the fear of failing or being worse of kills me!
why cant my body function normally?!

 

[DyingMiND]

Definitely read Stan's guide. I'm sure if you had 25g and didn't vomit, or not much, that it'll be enough. However, if you have the first one and vomit a good amount, then a second one would be good for backup. You'll probably still vomit with a second one but you'll likely absorb a good amount. It's so unpredictable. If you have questions that are general or specific, you can either post to the megathread or use the search engine to find more appropriate threads. Unfortunately, this method has so many variables you can't control for even in the best of circumstances.

 

[sigsq]

Does this chart start with the density of SN of: 2.168 g/cm3?

-> 0.03119 tbsp / g
-> 25g ~ .7798 tbsp